Would be accurate if everyone was that cut and dry. I like Led Zeppelin AND country music. I also like Prince, Metallica and Dolly Parton.
Also, it’s been a central expression of worship since Old Testament times.
Besides can you name something else we can all do together in a corporate setting to pour our hearts out to God in a powerful and heartfelt way?
That said, love your stuff, just have a bee in my bonnet about music.
thanks graeme… everyone’s got a bee in their bonnet about something… i draw some of mine!
anyhow, to your question… what about heartfelt discussion, heartfelt empathy, heartfelt learning, heartfelt encouraging, heartfelt intercession, heartfelt anything really, but why always music. i am also a music producer and maker of resources for worship… but, i have to say i cannot think of anything much more devisive than music in our western culture at the moment. you are absolutely right that people aren’t often this cut and dried in their tastes (it is a simple cartoon), but some people really are that cut and dried. big youth subcultures move to the beat of one kind of music which they own and have whole lifestyles that go with it. so i agree with you and disagree at the same time…
i also find the lack of poetic words and artistry or even themes to be lacking from most modern worship music i’ve encountered… as an artist i find no inspiration or enjoyment or experience there. i don’t hear many song that truly reflect what i would be wanting or needing to say to god, and i know i’m not the only one who has this experience.
there you go graeme… sorry for the rant but ifelt you invited me to… and i’d hate to let you down!
thank you for your encouragement and support, it is much appreciated!
[...] Cost of Living: dictated by values, not income.Thanks for visiting! (p.s. this box will go away after a few more visits Music: One problem of the church. [...]
thank you for your thoughts, arthur.
i do worry about the narrowness of our ‘worship ministry’ definition. all our acts should be acts of worship. the worship band and leader thing seems to me to try to take people on an emotional journey and bring people to an ‘experience’ of god through that route. if you don’t like the music, this will be unhelpful. i have also seen the ‘worship’ take people to some really odd places and i have struggled to see the long term fruits, i have seen short term ‘fixes’ for some and alienation for others.
i believe that in the synagogues, the highest form of worship was (and maybe still is) deemed to be debate. interesting.
the multi-million dollar worship industry is something i find more and more distasteful. it’s not worship, it’s commerce… nothing wrong with a bit of commerce, but let’s call it what it is. in commerce, the buck is king, jesus is not.
that’s enough ranting from me!
I totally agree that the music stuff can make us narrow minded into thinking that’s all worship is about, but singing prayers and praise to God is all over the bible…for it to be mentioned as much as it, I reckon that is pretty key.
Let’s not reject something completely just because of the cynicism brought by the worship music industry…
If we’re sharing pet hates - mine is ‘The Best Worship Album Ever’ and similarly named CDs found in ‘Christian’ bookshops everywhere… best according to who exactly?!
hi brunette koala and welcome!
i understand your point… but the singing in the bible comes from the heart of the community and is filled with content… some singing in the bible is triumphalist or nationalistic… i wouldn’t want to see that in our corporate worship. the part that music plays in our culture now is all about subculture… it can be very tribal. as far as i am aware, in general church is oblivious to this fact, yet presses on regardless. i think this shows a degree of aloof separatism and lack of cultural engagement.
thanks for the ‘pet hate’… one of mine would be people saying “that song is ‘annointed.”‘ this is basically a way of closing down your ability to say that you think it is actually quite poor. to disagree is made tantamount to rejecting what is good and pure and right. this, to my way of thinking, is bogus, pseudo theological tripe!
here endeth another rant. aah, that’s better!
Love your stuff! It’s getting to be a daily addiction. I think we’re all correct about music, it’s all over the Bible. Worship is everything, not just music. Jon, your comment about music being tribal is right on. Is there a greater controversy than music styles that divides a church? I am now at the age that “youth worship” annoys me greatly! Each generation/subculture has music that speaks to their hearts, and music that grinds on their ears. We are trying to move the emphasis from what the music sounds like to what the lyrics say–”Are you praying these words if you don’t wish to sing them? At what level is your heart involved?” I’d like to see more emphasis on Word, take tim e in the service just to hug and encourage.
NOW>>>>
How do I obtain permission to use this cartoon as an illustration in a sermon or newsletter?
hi bishopdave… agree fully!
re. permission… you just take whatever you want, whenever you want. if it’s possible to credit asbojesus please do. i want this stuff used. j
Hi - thanks for the permission to use the cartoon - as above - but we pay for the use of other cartoons in our parish magazine and I’d be very happy to enter into the same arrangement with you (I couldn’t find anywhere on your site where you give that as an option). Do get in touch if you’d like to pursue that.
that’s alright, sam. just go ahead and use.
i think soon i’ll add a paypal donation link, then people can decide for themselves what they do.
honestly, my first thought is that i want them used if they’re useful to people.
Hey guys..interesting convo about this subject…i’m currently writing a thesis on this very thing ie whether or not to sing! I agree with most of the negative comments towards the use of singing, in particular the aspect of cultural divisiveness these days. My thoughts come back to the aspect of liturgy. As spoken liturgy is dwindling in many churches (for some it’s never been a huge part of ‘ordinary’ worship) i question what it is we do/can do that equates. Remembering that liturgy means ‘of the people’ what is it that we do as a corporate body to respond to God whether that comes in the form of praise/adoration/petition/intercession. Singing has i guess been the fall back for that for the last 2000 years. I talk to some who can’t comprehend NOT singing, and some who say they can’t sing and therefore don’t sing, or just dislike singing, or can’t see the reasons why we should. Style definitely plays a part in it…but that could be a whole other book! I’m not sure i can think of another practice that satisfies that corporate offering in the same way as congregational song. It’s a huge topic…but i appreciate the stimulus. Thanks!
Your stuff is fabulous btw Jon…I’ve only just found this…but i’ll definitely be returning!
Excellent! And I say this as someone who has been a worship guy.
Comment by Nicholas — October 5, 2007 @ 2:17 pm
me too!
Comment by jonbirch — October 5, 2007 @ 3:06 pm
Would be accurate if everyone was that cut and dry. I like Led Zeppelin AND country music. I also like Prince, Metallica and Dolly Parton.
Also, it’s been a central expression of worship since Old Testament times.
Besides can you name something else we can all do together in a corporate setting to pour our hearts out to God in a powerful and heartfelt way?
That said, love your stuff, just have a bee in my bonnet about music.
Comment by Graeme — October 5, 2007 @ 7:58 pm
thanks graeme… everyone’s got a bee in their bonnet about something… i draw some of mine!
anyhow, to your question… what about heartfelt discussion, heartfelt empathy, heartfelt learning, heartfelt encouraging, heartfelt intercession, heartfelt anything really, but why always music. i am also a music producer and maker of resources for worship… but, i have to say i cannot think of anything much more devisive than music in our western culture at the moment. you are absolutely right that people aren’t often this cut and dried in their tastes (it is a simple cartoon), but some people really are that cut and dried. big youth subcultures move to the beat of one kind of music which they own and have whole lifestyles that go with it. so i agree with you and disagree at the same time…
i also find the lack of poetic words and artistry or even themes to be lacking from most modern worship music i’ve encountered… as an artist i find no inspiration or enjoyment or experience there. i don’t hear many song that truly reflect what i would be wanting or needing to say to god, and i know i’m not the only one who has this experience.
there you go graeme… sorry for the rant but ifelt you invited me to… and i’d hate to let you down!
thank you for your encouragement and support, it is much appreciated!
Comment by jonbirch — October 5, 2007 @ 10:25 pm
[...] Cost of Living: dictated by values, not income.Thanks for visiting! (p.s. this box will go away after a few more visits Music: One problem of the church. [...]
Pingback by One problem of the church at Trying to follow — October 5, 2007 @ 10:26 pm
I once wrote “worship ministry is probably the only ministry with the purest doctrine, with Christ’s simplest message.”
I wonder how many would agree.
Comment by Arthur Sim — October 5, 2007 @ 11:32 pm
thank you for your thoughts, arthur.
i do worry about the narrowness of our ‘worship ministry’ definition. all our acts should be acts of worship. the worship band and leader thing seems to me to try to take people on an emotional journey and bring people to an ‘experience’ of god through that route. if you don’t like the music, this will be unhelpful. i have also seen the ‘worship’ take people to some really odd places and i have struggled to see the long term fruits, i have seen short term ‘fixes’ for some and alienation for others.
i believe that in the synagogues, the highest form of worship was (and maybe still is) deemed to be debate. interesting.
the multi-million dollar worship industry is something i find more and more distasteful. it’s not worship, it’s commerce… nothing wrong with a bit of commerce, but let’s call it what it is. in commerce, the buck is king, jesus is not.
that’s enough ranting from me!
Comment by jonbirch — October 5, 2007 @ 11:55 pm
[...] Asbo] | Tags: Cartoons, Gemeinde, Musik, [...]
Pingback by Musik in der Gemeinde » Schrotty - think about — October 6, 2007 @ 12:46 pm
Good one… I like it.
Comment by scott — October 6, 2007 @ 5:34 pm
thanks, scott!
Comment by jonbirch — October 6, 2007 @ 6:14 pm
I totally agree that the music stuff can make us narrow minded into thinking that’s all worship is about, but singing prayers and praise to God is all over the bible…for it to be mentioned as much as it, I reckon that is pretty key.
Let’s not reject something completely just because of the cynicism brought by the worship music industry…
If we’re sharing pet hates - mine is ‘The Best Worship Album Ever’ and similarly named CDs found in ‘Christian’ bookshops everywhere… best according to who exactly?!
End of rant.
Comment by brunettekoala — October 7, 2007 @ 10:17 pm
hi brunette koala and welcome!
i understand your point… but the singing in the bible comes from the heart of the community and is filled with content… some singing in the bible is triumphalist or nationalistic… i wouldn’t want to see that in our corporate worship. the part that music plays in our culture now is all about subculture… it can be very tribal. as far as i am aware, in general church is oblivious to this fact, yet presses on regardless. i think this shows a degree of aloof separatism and lack of cultural engagement.
thanks for the ‘pet hate’… one of mine would be people saying “that song is ‘annointed.”‘ this is basically a way of closing down your ability to say that you think it is actually quite poor. to disagree is made tantamount to rejecting what is good and pure and right. this, to my way of thinking, is bogus, pseudo theological tripe!
here endeth another rant. aah, that’s better!
Comment by jonbirch — October 7, 2007 @ 11:32 pm
Love your stuff! It’s getting to be a daily addiction. I think we’re all correct about music, it’s all over the Bible. Worship is everything, not just music. Jon, your comment about music being tribal is right on. Is there a greater controversy than music styles that divides a church? I am now at the age that “youth worship” annoys me greatly! Each generation/subculture has music that speaks to their hearts, and music that grinds on their ears. We are trying to move the emphasis from what the music sounds like to what the lyrics say–”Are you praying these words if you don’t wish to sing them? At what level is your heart involved?” I’d like to see more emphasis on Word, take tim e in the service just to hug and encourage.
NOW>>>>
How do I obtain permission to use this cartoon as an illustration in a sermon or newsletter?
Comment by bishopdave — October 8, 2007 @ 12:58 pm
hi bishopdave… agree fully!
re. permission… you just take whatever you want, whenever you want. if it’s possible to credit asbojesus please do. i want this stuff used. j
Comment by jonbirch — October 8, 2007 @ 5:12 pm
Very good.
Comment by Hufi — October 8, 2007 @ 10:18 pm
thanks
Comment by jonbirch — October 8, 2007 @ 10:53 pm
[...] 16, 2007 Permanent Link to "Music in church" Number 124 in The Ongoing Adventures of ASBO [...]
Pingback by A tumbling Daniel – Music in church — October 16, 2007 @ 11:40 am
Hi - thanks for the permission to use the cartoon - as above - but we pay for the use of other cartoons in our parish magazine and I’d be very happy to enter into the same arrangement with you (I couldn’t find anywhere on your site where you give that as an option). Do get in touch if you’d like to pursue that.
Comment by Sam Norton — October 20, 2007 @ 2:35 pm
that’s alright, sam. just go ahead and use.
i think soon i’ll add a paypal donation link, then people can decide for themselves what they do.
honestly, my first thought is that i want them used if they’re useful to people.
Comment by jonbirch — October 20, 2007 @ 5:42 pm
[...] One problem of the church. (0) [...]
Pingback by Check out the Asides at Trying to follow — October 21, 2007 @ 5:12 am
Hey guys..interesting convo about this subject…i’m currently writing a thesis on this very thing ie whether or not to sing! I agree with most of the negative comments towards the use of singing, in particular the aspect of cultural divisiveness these days. My thoughts come back to the aspect of liturgy. As spoken liturgy is dwindling in many churches (for some it’s never been a huge part of ‘ordinary’ worship) i question what it is we do/can do that equates. Remembering that liturgy means ‘of the people’ what is it that we do as a corporate body to respond to God whether that comes in the form of praise/adoration/petition/intercession. Singing has i guess been the fall back for that for the last 2000 years. I talk to some who can’t comprehend NOT singing, and some who say they can’t sing and therefore don’t sing, or just dislike singing, or can’t see the reasons why we should. Style definitely plays a part in it…but that could be a whole other book! I’m not sure i can think of another practice that satisfies that corporate offering in the same way as congregational song. It’s a huge topic…but i appreciate the stimulus. Thanks!
Your stuff is fabulous btw Jon…I’ve only just found this…but i’ll definitely be returning!
Comment by Ruthy Roo — November 18, 2007 @ 1:35 pm
thank you, ruthy roo. all the best with the thesis.
Comment by jonbirch — November 18, 2007 @ 3:06 pm