Jon I don’t know what your views are, but I’m glad I’m able to type into the internet that I don’t believe in a permanent hell, and I do believe that everyone’s going to be with God. Everyone.
Thank you, and I respect your views whatever they are.
i just don’t see hell v heaven as the options. it simply isn’t biblical. the wages of sin is death, not hell anyway. the future is in gods hands, but the kngdom of god started some time ago… that should be our agenda. not threatening people with passion play versions of some end times fiction!
Jon,
Good to see you speak your mind and heart at PP. Looks like I poked a few who didn’t like our shared view about escapist theology. I wish evangelicals had a greater sense of humour and the willingness to see a perspective other than their own. That said, I have been one of them for decades and am a recovering fundy, so now I am oft an irritant because I love your art and post your links where they do the most to provoke thought!
Kind regards,
grendal aka ( | o )=====:::
thank you so much ( I o)—–::: or… grendal.
i thought after the reaction to what was said i may not go back again, it is very hard to express an opinion without being called a name in some quarters i’ve found. i think it is hard to stand up for what you believe in the face of such extreme reaction… i admire you. i’m glad you find this stuff helpful in your quest. if there is anything i should be saying in a cartoon that would help you further, let me know. cheers, j.
jon,
PP can be a rough and tumble place. It’s populated with ex-Calvary Chapel people, a few intrepid current Calvary Chapel pastors, many lurkers, and a few heresy hunters. Two of my friends wonder why I return to hang out with “the mean people”, and all I can say is that since I used to be one of them I pray daily for the kindness, compassion and character of Jesus to be formed in me so I can engage my fellow followers of Jesus and offer a view which is in the minority but, nevertheless, needs to be heard. Moreover, I have grown to love and respect the ones who are candid about their struggle to simply love Jesus and people without religion.
I spend much of my time with http://www.theeffect.org in the 3D world. We’re definitely a minority but we’re seeking to practise the presence of God and His Kingdom and be a user friendly safe place where people can come as they are, be honest about their struggles and share their perspectives for the betterment of the gathering. We’ll never be great in numbers but who cares?
Wishing you all the best in your art and life. May you have more love than you know what to do with it!
( | o )=====:::
I guess I’m the chief of the “mean people” but I’ve been called worse.
The reaction Jon received was what most people get when they make inflammatory comments then leave feeling morally superior without engaging anyone in discussion.
I’ll leave you nice folks to your cartoons.
Dear friend Michael,
My 2 friends call the PP theological debaters “the mean people”, and for the record, you have never been mentioned as one of them. They have never been regulars and the heated debates have scared them from becoming part of the community because they are just not the debating types. In fact, my 2 friends admire you for hosting PP and keeping it running in spite of all the opposition you’ve faced.
Just thought you’d like to know.
-grendal hanks
aka
( | o )=====:::
I really agree with you on this one. There are Christians who don’t believe in hell–as you said, the wages of sin is death, not eternal non-ending-in-death-torment.
M
Comment by mom2twoboys — November 27, 2007 @ 8:52 am
I have 3 questions and one comment;
1. What is PP?
2. what is / will hell be?
3. If there is no hell (whatever it may be) and if all people end up being with God despite what they do or how they live – then why O why did Jesus have to die on a Cross?
My understanding of hell is that it is an absence of God and those who choose to deny God and reject Christ will be choosing to exist with an absence of God – which in turn begs the question can there be any existence with an absence of God? But it does seem to me to make a mockery of the sacrifice of Jesus if we all just end up living happily ever after despite what we do in this life.
Have you ever read “The Ragamuffin Gospel” by Brennan Manning? Worth a read.
Maybe there are millions of people in their own personal hell’s walking around this earth because they currently don’t have a relationship with God? I know certainly some of the young people I work with in schools are certainly living a hellish life for various reasons outside of their control or ability to change.
The Bible also says that “One day EVERY knee shall bow, and EVERY tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord” – who am I, a mere bloke, to say that God’s grace doesn’t extend past the point of physical *earthly* death to the point at which people see Him and say “Oh, wow, you ARE real. I’m so sorry I ever doubted or ignored you”. Otherwise, grace isn’t grace? what does it mean after all? Surely it is all about the ‘undeserved’?
This maybe opens uncomfortable doors – (please read this next *one* sentence with a sarcastic lilt!) coz the prostitutes who don’t give a stuff about God SURELY deserve His love and acceptance FAR LESS than me, a guy who knows God and works for Him? But maybe, just maybe, Jesus didn’t come to turn the world up-side-down, but the right way up again?
I shall stop here, or I fear I shall go into a sermon!
pp is pohoenixpreacher. i left a comment there… it was a different view to the usual… hoped someone might engage… my hope seemed misguided. rather than get bogged down in the name calling i decided to get out of there. after all, that’s how wars start.
discussion on hell to follow when there’s more time… promise.
ps – I know that I can’t say for certain that God WILL allow all these people into eternal life with Him, but then maybe I don’t need to know for definite. Maybe all I need to know is that God is a loving, all powerful, all wise God, who’s foolishness makes the wisest on this earth look stupid. Maybe I need to trust the creator slightly more than I do, and just allow His Kingdom to happen through me?
hi marcus. hell… it’s an interesting one and one that gets steam up very quickly in conversation.
is christ in matthew talking about the loss of ‘being’, or the loss of ones ‘well-being’, when talking about hell. to understand what the bible means by hell you have to turn to the original language. what we translate as one word ‘hell’ could be ’sheol, hades, ge-hinnom, or more i think… we need to know the context and to what christ is alluding in order have any grasp on what he’s saying.
when jesus talks of hell it is very different to the place of darkness set aside for the sinning angels etc.
sometimes you’d think christianity was born in the west, the way we presume we understand what the text is saying without any real thought or study. i am not saying everyone need be a student but it would be great if we could trust those who place themselves in authority as teachers and preachers… all too often we can’t… they often seem to have placed assumption upon assumption until what we end up with is not a gospel, but a travesty. not something that would be recognisable to the jewish people… as different infact as a mighty king on horseback and humble servant on a donkey.
here’s just a section from ‘vines’ online which i found… it will give you a sense of what i mean.
i hope my response to your question is helpful.
you can access ‘vines’ and many other resources via http://www.mybibletools.com …
<1,,1067,geenna>
represents the Hebrew Ge-Hinnom (the valley of Tophet) and a corresponding Aramaic word; it is found twelve times in the NT, eleven of which are in the Synoptists, in every instance as uttered by the Lord Himself. He who says to his brother, Thou fool (see under FOOL), will be in danger of “the hell of fire,” Matt. 5:22; it is better to pluck out (a metaphorical description of irrevocable law) an eye that causes its possessor to stumble, than that his “whole body be cast into hell,” Matt. 5:29; similarly with the hand, Matt. 5:30; in Matt. 18:8,9, the admonitions are repeated, with an additional mention of the foot; here, too, the warning concerns the person himself (for which obviously the “body” stands in chapt. 5); in ver. 8, “the eternal fire” is mentioned as the doom, the character of the region standing for the region itself, the two being combined in the phrase “the hell of fire,” ver. 9. To the passage in Matt. 18, that in Mark 9:43-47, is parallel; here to the word “hell” are applied the extended descriptions “the unquenchable fire” and “where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.”
That God, “after He hath killed, hath power to cast into hell,” is assigned as a reason why He should be feared with the fear that keeps from evil doing, Luke 12:5; the parallel passage to this in Matt. 10:28 declares, not the casting in, but the doom which follows, namely, the destruction (not the loss of being, but of well-being) of “both soul and body.”
In Matt. 23 the Lord denounces the scribes and Pharisees, who in proselytizing a person “make him two-fold more a son of hell” than themselves (Matt 23:15), the phrase here being expressive of moral characteristics, and declares the impossibility of their escaping “the judgment of hell,” Matt. 23:33. In Jas. 3:6 “hell” is described as the source of the evil done by misuse of the tongue; here the word stands for the powers of darkness, whose characteristics and destiny are those of “hell.”
For terms descriptive of “hell,” see e.g., Matt. 13:42; 25:46; Phil. 3:19; 2 Thess. 1:9; Heb. 10:39; 2 Pet. 2:17; Jude 1:13; Rev. 2:11; 19:20; 20:6,10,14; 21:8.
Notes: (1) For the rendering “hell” as a translation of hades, corresponding to Sheol, wrongly rendered “the grave” and “hell,” see HADES. (2) The verb tartaroo, translated “cast down to hell” in 2 Pet. 2:4, signifies to consign to Tartarus, which is neither Sheol nor hades nor hell, but the place where those angels whose special sin is referred to in that passage are confined “to be reserved unto judgment;” the region is described as “pits of darkness,” RV.
For me having read all the comments i then went back to look at the cartoon and it struck me that so much emphasis can be placed on Hell and what you need to do in order to avoid it. (this is more of a general comment rather than one directed to anyone). I think the cartoon does a great job at highlighting the fact that if non-believers are approached in this way then who wouldn’t run a mile. If i was approached like this now i don’t know what i would do.
But surly the main focus should be about the life that could be gained rather than the pit of fire you would be thrown into if you reject this offer.
Are we so week in our faith to think that a relationship with God isn’t attractive enough on it’s own that we have to scare people into it.
See now thats what i’m talking about. Preach it brother. If only others knew how God worked, Just like you and me. The whole world would be scared into the kingdom……..
I wouldn’t mind spending an eternity with the kind of God Who would do everything possible to keep me out of a place like Hell. Including emptying Himself of His glory to live in our mortal bodies, and die a torturous death at the hands of those He loved. That must have been miserable for Him. Yet He held nothing back.
“He that spared not his own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?”
Comment by bishopdave — November 27, 2007 @ 4:10 pm
It strikes me that God is far too often characterized much as the powerless king of Daniel who could not free Daniel and his friends because of the laws of the Meades and Persians. God is not subject to His laws or processes like some sub-level bureaucrat. There is something sorely missing to imagine a God of such impotency when the story of God is His majesty.
bishopdave… “I wouldn’t mind spending an eternity with the kind of God Who would do everything possible to keep me out of a place like Hell”… i wouldn’t either if the same god hadn’t ‘allegedly’ created the darned place for me to burn in in the first place. i’m sorry, but this idea of hell as a place where sinners suffer for all eternity is not right… it’s all greek to me. we’d do better rescuing people from the hell they are suffering in the here and now. that’s our task. that and to rescue the creation from the bondage it suffers. that’s what god’s up to from what i’ve seen, read and understood, so that’s where i want to be… hard though it is.
I thought pp was populated by friends who are trying to learn how to walk closer to the Lord, who are trying hard to learn about what others believe, and learning how to love those who hate us.
Isn’t the idea to love God simply because you love Him and He loves you, not because the alternative is everlasting damnation, whatever that might be? Maybe I’m just being simplistic.
Great thought-provoking cartoons as ever, Jon. My daily visits here are actually the closest I get to a ‘church’ at the present moment. Thanks.
Dusty,
I wish PP were so more like you describe most of the time than less, but my 2 friends, who are kind souls, have tasted the flavour of the soup and there are many there who love peppers more than mutton. I feel compelled to visit Jon and show him the love he didn’t experience when I posted one of his pieces of art because I thought it really speaks to the escapist mentality of most of us american evangelicals. I only speak for myself but I think Jon was treated poorly and dismissed sorely, instead of being engaged in love. But then, Jon said it earlier, this is how wars start and I, with him, do not wish to be part of the warriors.
( | o )=====:::
I’ve been really intrigued by the ideas of Universalism. However there’s so many things that seem to point to some sort of punishment after death.
A good many of the parables in Mathew are a good example. The parable of the weeds and its explanation in chapter 13. The parable of the fish and the net in chapter 13.
In the parable of the unmerciful servant in Mathew 18, it looks to me like Jesus is saying that those who don’t forgive won’t be forgiven by God.
There’s the parable of the Wedding Banquet in Chapter 22.
The parable of the ten virgins and the parable of the goats and the sheep in chapter 25.
Mathew 7:21 – 23 seems to be a warning Christians of the possibilities of hell if they claim Jesus as lord but do not put his words into practice.
I do however believe that scripture supports the idea of non-exclusivity. Or the idea that non Christians will also go to heaven. I think Romans 2:12-16 supports this as well as John 9:39-41.
C.S. Lewis had some intriguing ideas about heaven and hell in his book “The Great Divorce”. In which heaven was open to those in hell who were willing to repent of their sins and selfishness.
Lewis’ hell wasn’t one of physical pain, but rather a place devoid of God and the good things of God’s creation. The tragedy in it is not that of eternal fires but instead selfish loneliness. Lewis seemed to indicate that the people who go to hell want to be there.
I’m kind of confused on the subject myself. I’ve prayed about it a lot, but I think it may be one of those things that nobody really understands.
I’m sure of one thing, whatever the outcome (assuming of course that Christianity is for the most part true), God’s actions will be revealed to be brought about by justice and love. Whatever those two things are revealed to actually be.
Come on home, Dusty.
The grace and love here only extends to those who agree with them.
Grendal has been a loved and respected member of our community for a long time…to say that I’m dismayed by what I’ve seen here is an understatement.
Live and learn…
Jon, love your cartoons, I get the message of this one. But I think we shortchange God and His glorious love when we try to apply human expectations on Him, i.e. He has no right to create a place, situation, or condition that we mortals find distasteful. I see this in debates over the meaning of the cross and the afterlife of those without Christ. Does love elimnate holiness, justice, and any other attributes that cause Him not to fit into our box? Yes, love God because He loves you, and not because of the alternative; but realize that without being covered by the blood of Christ, the Word clearly teaches we can’t approach Him. And why was that crucifixion/resurrection necessary? Because He would go to that extent to keep mankind from suffering the alternative. Yes, I’d want to spend eternity with a God like that.
Comment by bishopdave — November 27, 2007 @ 6:30 pm
And no matter if you agree with me or not, I still like your website.
Comment by bishopdave — November 27, 2007 @ 6:43 pm
hi michael. we obviously disagree on a few things. i’m happy to debate, but i’m sorry it seems personal. i had no prior knowledge of pp and really just stated a point of view… fervently, admittedly. i meant to stir up conversation, that’s all, i promise. i went to the site because i noticed a good few hits coming from their so decided to check it out.
hi laura. i’ve no more to say on pp, rest assured. i’d never heard of pp until yesterday. i am not interested in starting an argument on the pro’s and cons of a website or the individuals therein… i don’t know them. the subjects raised are ones i’ll revisit in cartoons, but they were always going to be.
i too am interested in the conversation on the subject. let’s all stay with that.
thanks, bishopdave… received and appreciated. btw i too think god has the right to do whatever the heck he wants… i just don’t believe that the hell people are assuming jesus is talking about is what some say it is… hell is now, hell is the future judgement for evil, hell is all sorts… but the bible makes no mention of a ‘place’ called hell that people will go to… not even jesus from what i can see.
hi carole. thank you for your words. i believe you to be right. that, i think, is indeed what it is all about.
btw. the cartoon was supposed to be thought provoking, even prickly… i, as always, hope it does more good than harm.
Jon,
I do know them. Some of them are friends so happy to move on.
Right….so, what I want to know is this…
God “invented” hell for the angels that followed Lucifer right? He didn’t create it before time for people (he hadn’t even “invented” people yet right?)
So, do those that teach hell and all it’s fury for everyone that doesn’t believe a certain set of things, think that God all of a sudden said to Himself “Hey…I know…I’ll just throw everyone that get’s the answers wrong into hell!”
At what point did God decide Hell was a useful place to dispose of people? That has never made sense to me.
The truth is, we simply don’t know what happens in the end – the Bible gives clues but it’s still mystery. So if not the stark choice of heaven or hell, what drives us to attempt to “share our faith”? I think the best reason I’ve heard is “to bring to Christ the full measure of his reward”. Whether you believe in penal substitution or “Christus victor” as the main meaning of the cross, the aim is to so tell the story that the maximum number of people come to see for themselves how much God loves them, and the cross shows the extent of his love. All who see it and learn faith are added to the numberless thousands around the throne who see and love Jesus. Every one who says “yes” to Jesus adds to his reward.
exactly, laura. where in scripture does the evidence for that come from? i really think it’s not there. i’ve looked and can’t find it. scholars have looked and can’t find it. like i said… ‘it’s all greek to me’… this kind of theology is classically greek in look and sound. jesus of course would have been well aware of greek teaching and he sounds to me to be speaking contrary to it on many occasions.
i wonder whether, sometimes when the text is tricky for a westerner, whether we inadvertantly automatically revert to a platonistic understanding of the world and thus, scripture. after all. it is the philosophy the modern world was founded on. we also seem to feel the need to see people punished… even more i think than we often want to see real justice. we see it played out on the world stage with frightening regularity.
chris f is right in the focus he suggests i think. good old fashioned ‘love god, love your neighbour’ is the way forward, i feel pretty confident about that.
hi guy’s
good to find a hot debate here, I think there is something in what your saying about ‘real justice’, I don’t necessary think that means punishment, but rather restoration. I think God wants to restore the life and well being of those who have been marginalised, and at times this will entail a de-throne-meant of the fat controller. This is also about restoration, and liberation, as the fat controller‘s seat is not really a good place to live. That God is passionate about justice I have no doubt, and I’m also learning that justice is healing. Sometimes the quite rebuke of the holy spirit is so filled with love and an invitation to live, that we don’t feel condemned. So I agree, our experience of ‘banishment’ is more about our fear of evil, than God’s ability to restore.
Hi,
First, I want to say that I read you every single day and just love what you do! I’m not one for posting much, so this is my first time.
Anyway….this topic always stirs up a lot of frenzy, but it always strikes me how people will so quickly jump to defend that which they have not really studied out, you know? I’ve spent the last three years studying this topic, knowing I could disprove the talk that God will one day reconcile all mankind back to himself through his Son who died on a cross. Well, three years later, and I’m afraid my irenic studying has left me a total believer (know-er!) that He will, indeed, reconcile all mankind back to himself!
If anyone wants to actually study this out, I can recommend two very easy-to-read little booklets that explain it all quite clearly using scripture. (No, I’m not the author of either and no, I don’t make any money from them!) The first is called The Outcome of Infinite Grace by Loyal Hurley. You can buy a copy (surf for it, you’ll find it!) for $5, or you can read it free here: http://tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm.
The second little booklet that totally explained it in a way that had me laughing out loud while getting the truth is Martin Zender’s book: Martin Zender Goes to Hell. He’s quite the scholar, but puts it all forth in an easy to understand, funny manner.
Any honest seeker with an open heart who reads these two booklets will be amazed as I was! These booklets are just beginners to this topic, but the deeper you study, the more you will know the truth of God’s great love for ALL mankind!
thanks elle. that’s what real study can do see! i have been very fortunate to have spent the last 18 years or so debating in the warm company of some of the most bible literate people… philosophy and theology degrees and masters as their credentials. one or two are not only clever but also wise… one such is mark roques, check his site out. these people have poured and studied, poured and studied and then poured and studied again… you have made me think about what my booklist might be. there are some great ones out there.
it is very good… if you like football. mark was on channel 4 not so long ago, with the likes of sir alex et al talking about god and sport. get in touch with him… he loves a good conversation.
“His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.” Rev 12 4-5
In my reading of this, it could mean that Satan’s fall didn’t happen before creation, but that it COULD have happened after creation, or nearer to Christ’s birth… Anyway… most look at bible as singular point and or place in the past or future, but I think it is more an extended time-line of events and places that could have occurred at a variety of times leaving me to wonder how we as mere mortals have ANY right to declare, Where, what or When ‘hell’ even is, there is separation from God and there is God’s love and grace, one is known and one is unknown…
I’m not going to give a lecture at Oxford about 12th century literature, because i know nothing about it… but i know about God’s grace and love
[...] Heute ist dieses Evangelium schlicht nicht mehr vermittelbar. Was nicht heißt, dass manche es doch noch versuchen. Gerade gebildete Menschen sind sehr sensibel, wenn es um Ausgrenzung und Benachteiligung oder gar und Rache und Willkür geht. Das ist dann die “grüne”, ausgesprochen autoritätskritische Frequenz. Die meisten von uns empfinden intuitiv so: Wie kann man sagen, dass Gott Liebe ist, wenn sein Heil am Ende nur wenigen Auserwählten gilt? Oder muss man nicht Angst und Abscheu vor einem solchen Wesen empfinden – so wie in diesem Cartoon auf ASBO Jesus: [...]
Finally some one’s said it!
Jon I don’t know what your views are, but I’m glad I’m able to type into the internet that I don’t believe in a permanent hell, and I do believe that everyone’s going to be with God. Everyone.
Thank you, and I respect your views whatever they are.
Sarah x
Comment by Sarah — November 27, 2007 @ 12:12 am
A good reminder to keep the Good News good.
Comment by Brian Eberly — November 27, 2007 @ 12:15 am
i just don’t see hell v heaven as the options. it simply isn’t biblical. the wages of sin is death, not hell anyway. the future is in gods hands, but the kngdom of god started some time ago… that should be our agenda. not threatening people with passion play versions of some end times fiction!
Comment by jonbirch — November 27, 2007 @ 12:43 am
Jon,
Good to see you speak your mind and heart at PP. Looks like I poked a few who didn’t like our shared view about escapist theology. I wish evangelicals had a greater sense of humour and the willingness to see a perspective other than their own. That said, I have been one of them for decades and am a recovering fundy, so now I am oft an irritant because I love your art and post your links where they do the most to provoke thought!
Kind regards,
grendal aka ( | o )=====:::
Comment by ( | o )=====::: — November 27, 2007 @ 12:43 am
thank you so much ( I o)—–:::
or… grendal.
i thought after the reaction to what was said i may not go back again, it is very hard to express an opinion without being called a name in some quarters i’ve found. i think it is hard to stand up for what you believe in the face of such extreme reaction… i admire you. i’m glad you find this stuff helpful in your quest. if there is anything i should be saying in a cartoon that would help you further, let me know. cheers, j.
Comment by jonbirch — November 27, 2007 @ 12:54 am
jon,
PP can be a rough and tumble place. It’s populated with ex-Calvary Chapel people, a few intrepid current Calvary Chapel pastors, many lurkers, and a few heresy hunters. Two of my friends wonder why I return to hang out with “the mean people”, and all I can say is that since I used to be one of them I pray daily for the kindness, compassion and character of Jesus to be formed in me so I can engage my fellow followers of Jesus and offer a view which is in the minority but, nevertheless, needs to be heard. Moreover, I have grown to love and respect the ones who are candid about their struggle to simply love Jesus and people without religion.
I spend much of my time with http://www.theeffect.org in the 3D world. We’re definitely a minority but we’re seeking to practise the presence of God and His Kingdom and be a user friendly safe place where people can come as they are, be honest about their struggles and share their perspectives for the betterment of the gathering. We’ll never be great in numbers but who cares?
Wishing you all the best in your art and life. May you have more love than you know what to do with it!
( | o )=====:::
Comment by ( | o )=====::: — November 27, 2007 @ 1:23 am
thanks… you too, friend.
Comment by jonbirch — November 27, 2007 @ 1:32 am
I guess I’m the chief of the “mean people” but I’ve been called worse.
The reaction Jon received was what most people get when they make inflammatory comments then leave feeling morally superior without engaging anyone in discussion.
I’ll leave you nice folks to your cartoons.
Comment by Michael — November 27, 2007 @ 6:41 am
Funny, it seems like you just did the same thing.
Comment by Laura — November 27, 2007 @ 7:19 am
Dear friend Michael,
My 2 friends call the PP theological debaters “the mean people”, and for the record, you have never been mentioned as one of them. They have never been regulars and the heated debates have scared them from becoming part of the community because they are just not the debating types. In fact, my 2 friends admire you for hosting PP and keeping it running in spite of all the opposition you’ve faced.
Just thought you’d like to know.
-grendal hanks
aka
( | o )=====:::
Comment by ( | o )=====::: — November 27, 2007 @ 7:52 am
What is PP? (sorry to be dumb)
I really agree with you on this one. There are Christians who don’t believe in hell–as you said, the wages of sin is death, not eternal non-ending-in-death-torment.
M
Comment by mom2twoboys — November 27, 2007 @ 8:52 am
I have 3 questions and one comment;
1. What is PP?
2. what is / will hell be?
3. If there is no hell (whatever it may be) and if all people end up being with God despite what they do or how they live – then why O why did Jesus have to die on a Cross?
My understanding of hell is that it is an absence of God and those who choose to deny God and reject Christ will be choosing to exist with an absence of God – which in turn begs the question can there be any existence with an absence of God? But it does seem to me to make a mockery of the sacrifice of Jesus if we all just end up living happily ever after despite what we do in this life.
Comment by marcus — November 27, 2007 @ 9:22 am
Amen, Jon!
Have you ever read “The Ragamuffin Gospel” by Brennan Manning? Worth a read.
Maybe there are millions of people in their own personal hell’s walking around this earth because they currently don’t have a relationship with God? I know certainly some of the young people I work with in schools are certainly living a hellish life for various reasons outside of their control or ability to change.
The Bible also says that “One day EVERY knee shall bow, and EVERY tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord” – who am I, a mere bloke, to say that God’s grace doesn’t extend past the point of physical *earthly* death to the point at which people see Him and say “Oh, wow, you ARE real. I’m so sorry I ever doubted or ignored you”. Otherwise, grace isn’t grace? what does it mean after all? Surely it is all about the ‘undeserved’?
This maybe opens uncomfortable doors – (please read this next *one* sentence with a sarcastic lilt!) coz the prostitutes who don’t give a stuff about God SURELY deserve His love and acceptance FAR LESS than me, a guy who knows God and works for Him? But maybe, just maybe, Jesus didn’t come to turn the world up-side-down, but the right way up again?
I shall stop here, or I fear I shall go into a sermon!
Mark.
Comment by Mark Burgess — November 27, 2007 @ 9:51 am
pp is pohoenixpreacher. i left a comment there… it was a different view to the usual… hoped someone might engage… my hope seemed misguided. rather than get bogged down in the name calling i decided to get out of there. after all, that’s how wars start.
discussion on hell to follow when there’s more time… promise.
Comment by jonbirch — November 27, 2007 @ 9:54 am
ps – I know that I can’t say for certain that God WILL allow all these people into eternal life with Him, but then maybe I don’t need to know for definite. Maybe all I need to know is that God is a loving, all powerful, all wise God, who’s foolishness makes the wisest on this earth look stupid. Maybe I need to trust the creator slightly more than I do, and just allow His Kingdom to happen through me?
Comment by Mark Burgess — November 27, 2007 @ 9:54 am
thank you mark. what you say sounds very wise to my ear.
will try and engage more later.
thanks all for the comments.
Comment by jonbirch — November 27, 2007 @ 9:58 am
hi marcus. hell… it’s an interesting one and one that gets steam up very quickly in conversation.
is christ in matthew talking about the loss of ‘being’, or the loss of ones ‘well-being’, when talking about hell. to understand what the bible means by hell you have to turn to the original language. what we translate as one word ‘hell’ could be ’sheol, hades, ge-hinnom, or more i think… we need to know the context and to what christ is alluding in order have any grasp on what he’s saying.
when jesus talks of hell it is very different to the place of darkness set aside for the sinning angels etc.
sometimes you’d think christianity was born in the west, the way we presume we understand what the text is saying without any real thought or study. i am not saying everyone need be a student but it would be great if we could trust those who place themselves in authority as teachers and preachers… all too often we can’t… they often seem to have placed assumption upon assumption until what we end up with is not a gospel, but a travesty. not something that would be recognisable to the jewish people… as different infact as a mighty king on horseback and humble servant on a donkey.
here’s just a section from ‘vines’ online which i found… it will give you a sense of what i mean.
i hope my response to your question is helpful.
you can access ‘vines’ and many other resources via http://www.mybibletools.com …
<1,,1067,geenna>
represents the Hebrew Ge-Hinnom (the valley of Tophet) and a corresponding Aramaic word; it is found twelve times in the NT, eleven of which are in the Synoptists, in every instance as uttered by the Lord Himself. He who says to his brother, Thou fool (see under FOOL), will be in danger of “the hell of fire,” Matt. 5:22; it is better to pluck out (a metaphorical description of irrevocable law) an eye that causes its possessor to stumble, than that his “whole body be cast into hell,” Matt. 5:29; similarly with the hand, Matt. 5:30; in Matt. 18:8,9, the admonitions are repeated, with an additional mention of the foot; here, too, the warning concerns the person himself (for which obviously the “body” stands in chapt. 5); in ver. 8, “the eternal fire” is mentioned as the doom, the character of the region standing for the region itself, the two being combined in the phrase “the hell of fire,” ver. 9. To the passage in Matt. 18, that in Mark 9:43-47, is parallel; here to the word “hell” are applied the extended descriptions “the unquenchable fire” and “where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.”
That God, “after He hath killed, hath power to cast into hell,” is assigned as a reason why He should be feared with the fear that keeps from evil doing, Luke 12:5; the parallel passage to this in Matt. 10:28 declares, not the casting in, but the doom which follows, namely, the destruction (not the loss of being, but of well-being) of “both soul and body.”
In Matt. 23 the Lord denounces the scribes and Pharisees, who in proselytizing a person “make him two-fold more a son of hell” than themselves (Matt 23:15), the phrase here being expressive of moral characteristics, and declares the impossibility of their escaping “the judgment of hell,” Matt. 23:33. In Jas. 3:6 “hell” is described as the source of the evil done by misuse of the tongue; here the word stands for the powers of darkness, whose characteristics and destiny are those of “hell.”
For terms descriptive of “hell,” see e.g., Matt. 13:42; 25:46; Phil. 3:19; 2 Thess. 1:9; Heb. 10:39; 2 Pet. 2:17; Jude 1:13; Rev. 2:11; 19:20; 20:6,10,14; 21:8.
Notes: (1) For the rendering “hell” as a translation of hades, corresponding to Sheol, wrongly rendered “the grave” and “hell,” see HADES. (2) The verb tartaroo, translated “cast down to hell” in 2 Pet. 2:4, signifies to consign to Tartarus, which is neither Sheol nor hades nor hell, but the place where those angels whose special sin is referred to in that passage are confined “to be reserved unto judgment;” the region is described as “pits of darkness,” RV.
Comment by jonbirch — November 27, 2007 @ 12:48 pm
For me having read all the comments i then went back to look at the cartoon and it struck me that so much emphasis can be placed on Hell and what you need to do in order to avoid it. (this is more of a general comment rather than one directed to anyone). I think the cartoon does a great job at highlighting the fact that if non-believers are approached in this way then who wouldn’t run a mile. If i was approached like this now i don’t know what i would do.
But surly the main focus should be about the life that could be gained rather than the pit of fire you would be thrown into if you reject this offer.
Are we so week in our faith to think that a relationship with God isn’t attractive enough on it’s own that we have to scare people into it.
Comment by will — November 27, 2007 @ 2:01 pm
you mean like… accept god’s grace and goodness for all eternity or he’ll smite you something rotten!… that kind of thing.
Comment by jonbirch — November 27, 2007 @ 2:51 pm
See now thats what i’m talking about. Preach it brother. If only others knew how God worked, Just like you and me. The whole world would be scared into the kingdom……..
Comment by will — November 27, 2007 @ 2:55 pm
I wouldn’t mind spending an eternity with the kind of God Who would do everything possible to keep me out of a place like Hell. Including emptying Himself of His glory to live in our mortal bodies, and die a torturous death at the hands of those He loved. That must have been miserable for Him. Yet He held nothing back.
“He that spared not his own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?”
Comment by bishopdave — November 27, 2007 @ 4:10 pm
It strikes me that God is far too often characterized much as the powerless king of Daniel who could not free Daniel and his friends because of the laws of the Meades and Persians. God is not subject to His laws or processes like some sub-level bureaucrat. There is something sorely missing to imagine a God of such impotency when the story of God is His majesty.
Comment by ( | o )=====::: — November 27, 2007 @ 4:47 pm
absolutely ( | o )=====:::
bishopdave… “I wouldn’t mind spending an eternity with the kind of God Who would do everything possible to keep me out of a place like Hell”… i wouldn’t either if the same god hadn’t ‘allegedly’ created the darned place for me to burn in in the first place. i’m sorry, but this idea of hell as a place where sinners suffer for all eternity is not right… it’s all greek to me. we’d do better rescuing people from the hell they are suffering in the here and now. that’s our task. that and to rescue the creation from the bondage it suffers. that’s what god’s up to from what i’ve seen, read and understood, so that’s where i want to be… hard though it is.
Comment by jonbirch — November 27, 2007 @ 5:30 pm
I thought pp was populated by friends who are trying to learn how to walk closer to the Lord, who are trying hard to learn about what others believe, and learning how to love those who hate us.
Comment by dusty — November 27, 2007 @ 5:34 pm
Isn’t the idea to love God simply because you love Him and He loves you, not because the alternative is everlasting damnation, whatever that might be? Maybe I’m just being simplistic.
Great thought-provoking cartoons as ever, Jon. My daily visits here are actually the closest I get to a ‘church’ at the present moment. Thanks.
Comment by Carole — November 27, 2007 @ 5:58 pm
Dusty,
I wish PP were so more like you describe most of the time than less, but my 2 friends, who are kind souls, have tasted the flavour of the soup and there are many there who love peppers more than mutton. I feel compelled to visit Jon and show him the love he didn’t experience when I posted one of his pieces of art because I thought it really speaks to the escapist mentality of most of us american evangelicals. I only speak for myself but I think Jon was treated poorly and dismissed sorely, instead of being engaged in love. But then, Jon said it earlier, this is how wars start and I, with him, do not wish to be part of the warriors.
( | o )=====:::
Comment by ( | o )=====::: — November 27, 2007 @ 6:00 pm
grendal my friend, I don’t want to fight.
Comment by dusty — November 27, 2007 @ 6:20 pm
Can we PLEASE not make this a battleground about whether or not PP is good or evil.
Too many scars over that already.
Thanks!
sorry jon.
Comment by Laura — November 27, 2007 @ 6:22 pm
I’ve been really intrigued by the ideas of Universalism. However there’s so many things that seem to point to some sort of punishment after death.
A good many of the parables in Mathew are a good example. The parable of the weeds and its explanation in chapter 13. The parable of the fish and the net in chapter 13.
In the parable of the unmerciful servant in Mathew 18, it looks to me like Jesus is saying that those who don’t forgive won’t be forgiven by God.
There’s the parable of the Wedding Banquet in Chapter 22.
The parable of the ten virgins and the parable of the goats and the sheep in chapter 25.
Mathew 7:21 – 23 seems to be a warning Christians of the possibilities of hell if they claim Jesus as lord but do not put his words into practice.
I do however believe that scripture supports the idea of non-exclusivity. Or the idea that non Christians will also go to heaven. I think Romans 2:12-16 supports this as well as John 9:39-41.
C.S. Lewis had some intriguing ideas about heaven and hell in his book “The Great Divorce”. In which heaven was open to those in hell who were willing to repent of their sins and selfishness.
Lewis’ hell wasn’t one of physical pain, but rather a place devoid of God and the good things of God’s creation. The tragedy in it is not that of eternal fires but instead selfish loneliness. Lewis seemed to indicate that the people who go to hell want to be there.
I’m kind of confused on the subject myself. I’ve prayed about it a lot, but I think it may be one of those things that nobody really understands.
I’m sure of one thing, whatever the outcome (assuming of course that Christianity is for the most part true), God’s actions will be revealed to be brought about by justice and love. Whatever those two things are revealed to actually be.
Comment by Jon — November 27, 2007 @ 6:23 pm
lol
Comment by dusty — November 27, 2007 @ 6:23 pm
Come on home, Dusty.
The grace and love here only extends to those who agree with them.
Grendal has been a loved and respected member of our community for a long time…to say that I’m dismayed by what I’ve seen here is an understatement.
Live and learn…
Comment by Michael — November 27, 2007 @ 6:29 pm
Oh, and sorry if the name causes any confusion. I have three first names.
Jon Kelsey Landan
I can go by one of the others. I didn’t think about that when I posted. I’ve never met anyone else who spelled Jon that way.
Comment by Jon — November 27, 2007 @ 6:29 pm
Jon, love your cartoons, I get the message of this one. But I think we shortchange God and His glorious love when we try to apply human expectations on Him, i.e. He has no right to create a place, situation, or condition that we mortals find distasteful. I see this in debates over the meaning of the cross and the afterlife of those without Christ. Does love elimnate holiness, justice, and any other attributes that cause Him not to fit into our box? Yes, love God because He loves you, and not because of the alternative; but realize that without being covered by the blood of Christ, the Word clearly teaches we can’t approach Him. And why was that crucifixion/resurrection necessary? Because He would go to that extent to keep mankind from suffering the alternative. Yes, I’d want to spend eternity with a God like that.
Comment by bishopdave — November 27, 2007 @ 6:30 pm
And no matter if you agree with me or not, I still like your website.
Comment by bishopdave — November 27, 2007 @ 6:43 pm
hi michael. we obviously disagree on a few things. i’m happy to debate, but i’m sorry it seems personal. i had no prior knowledge of pp and really just stated a point of view… fervently, admittedly. i meant to stir up conversation, that’s all, i promise. i went to the site because i noticed a good few hits coming from their so decided to check it out.
hi laura. i’ve no more to say on pp, rest assured. i’d never heard of pp until yesterday. i am not interested in starting an argument on the pro’s and cons of a website or the individuals therein… i don’t know them. the subjects raised are ones i’ll revisit in cartoons, but they were always going to be.
i too am interested in the conversation on the subject. let’s all stay with that.
thanks, bishopdave… received and appreciated.
btw i too think god has the right to do whatever the heck he wants… i just don’t believe that the hell people are assuming jesus is talking about is what some say it is… hell is now, hell is the future judgement for evil, hell is all sorts… but the bible makes no mention of a ‘place’ called hell that people will go to… not even jesus from what i can see.
Comment by jonbirch — November 27, 2007 @ 7:29 pm
hi carole. thank you for your words. i believe you to be right. that, i think, is indeed what it is all about.
btw. the cartoon was supposed to be thought provoking, even prickly… i, as always, hope it does more good than harm.
Comment by jonbirch — November 27, 2007 @ 7:34 pm
Jon,
I do know them. Some of them are friends so happy to move on.
Right….so, what I want to know is this…
God “invented” hell for the angels that followed Lucifer right? He didn’t create it before time for people (he hadn’t even “invented” people yet right?)
So, do those that teach hell and all it’s fury for everyone that doesn’t believe a certain set of things, think that God all of a sudden said to Himself “Hey…I know…I’ll just throw everyone that get’s the answers wrong into hell!”
At what point did God decide Hell was a useful place to dispose of people? That has never made sense to me.
Anyone??
Comment by Laura — November 27, 2007 @ 7:57 pm
The truth is, we simply don’t know what happens in the end – the Bible gives clues but it’s still mystery. So if not the stark choice of heaven or hell, what drives us to attempt to “share our faith”? I think the best reason I’ve heard is “to bring to Christ the full measure of his reward”. Whether you believe in penal substitution or “Christus victor” as the main meaning of the cross, the aim is to so tell the story that the maximum number of people come to see for themselves how much God loves them, and the cross shows the extent of his love. All who see it and learn faith are added to the numberless thousands around the throne who see and love Jesus. Every one who says “yes” to Jesus adds to his reward.
Comment by Chris F — November 27, 2007 @ 8:37 pm
exactly, laura. where in scripture does the evidence for that come from? i really think it’s not there. i’ve looked and can’t find it. scholars have looked and can’t find it. like i said… ‘it’s all greek to me’… this kind of theology is classically greek in look and sound. jesus of course would have been well aware of greek teaching and he sounds to me to be speaking contrary to it on many occasions.
i wonder whether, sometimes when the text is tricky for a westerner, whether we inadvertantly automatically revert to a platonistic understanding of the world and thus, scripture. after all. it is the philosophy the modern world was founded on. we also seem to feel the need to see people punished… even more i think than we often want to see real justice. we see it played out on the world stage with frightening regularity.
Comment by jonbirch — November 27, 2007 @ 8:48 pm
chris f is right in the focus he suggests i think. good old fashioned ‘love god, love your neighbour’ is the way forward, i feel pretty confident about that.
Comment by jonbirch — November 27, 2007 @ 8:52 pm
hi guy’s
good to find a hot debate here, I think there is something in what your saying about ‘real justice’, I don’t necessary think that means punishment, but rather restoration. I think God wants to restore the life and well being of those who have been marginalised, and at times this will entail a de-throne-meant of the fat controller. This is also about restoration, and liberation, as the fat controller‘s seat is not really a good place to live. That God is passionate about justice I have no doubt, and I’m also learning that justice is healing. Sometimes the quite rebuke of the holy spirit is so filled with love and an invitation to live, that we don’t feel condemned. So I agree, our experience of ‘banishment’ is more about our fear of evil, than God’s ability to restore.
Comment by subo — November 28, 2007 @ 8:56 am
That whole thing about if we fear, we’re not whole in love.
Sas x
Comment by Sarah — November 28, 2007 @ 11:37 am
Hi,
First, I want to say that I read you every single day and just love what you do! I’m not one for posting much, so this is my first time.
Anyway….this topic always stirs up a lot of frenzy, but it always strikes me how people will so quickly jump to defend that which they have not really studied out, you know? I’ve spent the last three years studying this topic, knowing I could disprove the talk that God will one day reconcile all mankind back to himself through his Son who died on a cross. Well, three years later, and I’m afraid my irenic studying has left me a total believer (know-er!) that He will, indeed, reconcile all mankind back to himself!
If anyone wants to actually study this out, I can recommend two very easy-to-read little booklets that explain it all quite clearly using scripture. (No, I’m not the author of either and no, I don’t make any money from them!) The first is called The Outcome of Infinite Grace by Loyal Hurley. You can buy a copy (surf for it, you’ll find it!) for $5, or you can read it free here: http://tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm.
The second little booklet that totally explained it in a way that had me laughing out loud while getting the truth is Martin Zender’s book: Martin Zender Goes to Hell. He’s quite the scholar, but puts it all forth in an easy to understand, funny manner.
Any honest seeker with an open heart who reads these two booklets will be amazed as I was! These booklets are just beginners to this topic, but the deeper you study, the more you will know the truth of God’s great love for ALL mankind!
Good stuff!
Comment by Elle — November 28, 2007 @ 11:53 am
Whoops–wrong link for the booklet. The free version is found here:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
Comment by Elle — November 28, 2007 @ 11:55 am
thanks elle.
that’s what real study can do see! i have been very fortunate to have spent the last 18 years or so debating in the warm company of some of the most bible literate people… philosophy and theology degrees and masters as their credentials. one or two are not only clever but also wise… one such is mark roques, check his site out. these people have poured and studied, poured and studied and then poured and studied again… you have made me think about what my booklist might be. there are some great ones out there.
wise words subo
Comment by jonbirch — November 28, 2007 @ 12:20 pm
I’d never heard of Mark Roques, so thanks for telling me about him! I’ve just ordered his “Fields of God” book…looks great!
Comment by Elle — November 28, 2007 @ 5:42 pm
it is very good… if you like football. mark was on channel 4 not so long ago, with the likes of sir alex et al talking about god and sport. get in touch with him… he loves a good conversation.
Comment by jonbirch — November 28, 2007 @ 6:04 pm
hey all… hopefully i’m not too late to chime in…
This verse has intrigued me as of late:
“His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.” Rev 12 4-5
In my reading of this, it could mean that Satan’s fall didn’t happen before creation, but that it COULD have happened after creation, or nearer to Christ’s birth… Anyway… most look at bible as singular point and or place in the past or future, but I think it is more an extended time-line of events and places that could have occurred at a variety of times leaving me to wonder how we as mere mortals have ANY right to declare, Where, what or When ‘hell’ even is, there is separation from God and there is God’s love and grace, one is known and one is unknown…
I’m not going to give a lecture at Oxford about 12th century literature, because i know nothing about it… but i know about God’s grace and love
Comment by scanartist — November 29, 2007 @ 5:33 pm
interesting thoughts scanartist. we do know that satan was defeated by the cross… maybe this picture from revelation mirrors this.
Comment by jonbirch — November 29, 2007 @ 10:11 pm
jon,
sorry for any trouble i caused you by an earlier post
I love your heart and attitude and am taking a crash course in grace
( | o )=====:::
Comment by grendal hanks aka ( | o )=====::: — November 30, 2007 @ 5:57 pm
no worries grendal.
Comment by jonbirch — November 30, 2007 @ 6:13 pm
[...] (cartoon via The Ongoing Adventures of ASBO Jesus) [...]
Pingback by Walk the Razor » Evangelism — November 30, 2007 @ 7:18 pm
[...] Heute ist dieses Evangelium schlicht nicht mehr vermittelbar. Was nicht heißt, dass manche es doch noch versuchen. Gerade gebildete Menschen sind sehr sensibel, wenn es um Ausgrenzung und Benachteiligung oder gar und Rache und Willkür geht. Das ist dann die “grüne”, ausgesprochen autoritätskritische Frequenz. Die meisten von uns empfinden intuitiv so: Wie kann man sagen, dass Gott Liebe ist, wenn sein Heil am Ende nur wenigen Auserwählten gilt? Oder muss man nicht Angst und Abscheu vor einem solchen Wesen empfinden – so wie in diesem Cartoon auf ASBO Jesus: [...]
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