So many times I have heard this comment and its self interested relatives;
The songs didn’t connect with me today
The prayers were too long for my liking
The scripture readings were too long to keep my attention
The worship did not lift me
The worship did not recharge me for the week ahead
The minister at the church I grew up in always used to say “when someone says to me that they don’t like one worship song or other, I just tell them that God thought it was great!”
It is a fine line between enabling people to worship through accessable forms of church service and just providing an enjoyable day out. Also, ‘worship’ is so often defined as ’singing’.
For me this cartoon raises so many issues. The intended recipient of ‘worship’ is God, not the worshipper. An accurate translation of what most people who say this type of thing mean is “I didn’t enjoy the singing this morning”. When we contemplate worship as everything we do 24/7 (like Paul) it blows the whole issue out of the water. It becomes a much more powerful act of worship to endure a 45 minute sermon on nothing in particular. We are putting ourselves out to worship God.
Therefore – rubbish worship that you come back to must be the best form of worship. Turning to God when you don’t want to.
Whilst it’s quite right that the purpose of worship is to bless God, not the worshipper, it is another part of God’s amazing grace that when we worship him, he so often chooses to bless us as well! Unfortunately, this gracious act of God’s is often the lasting memory that people have from worship – feeling uplifted, peaceful, joyful etc. As a result, when that doesn’t happen, we assume that something’s gone wrong.
Incidentally, I don’t like to use the term bad (or even ‘rubbish’) worship. It’s part of the same problem. Worship either is or isn’t. As it’s directed to God, our opinion of it is irrelevant. Worship is sacrifice, even when we are blessed by it. But if we’re not, that doesn’t make it bad, in any way. If worship is ‘poorly presented’, that doesn’t make it bad, either, as ultimately, worship takes place in the heart or hearts of the worshipper(s).
The point made is excellent, but like Robb seemed to be going towards styles of music can rightfully be a hindrance or a aid in singing worship to God in *SPIRIT* (perhaps not the Spirit) as well as truth.
The value of seeking to worship God even out of a weakness of desire is the single thing that might draw me to a more liturgical church, though probably not as a regular attender or member. I would have a hard time worshiping in reality when it was a struggle as a result of music style each week.
Jon boy, this has really got the old brain ticking. Recently i have had a real struggle leading the sung worship at church – so instead of just ranting i will spend a bit of time in thought and come back to you with some coherent ramblings. Thanks for the prod.
Maybe not all the time, but I’ve been through difficult weeks when all I’ve wanted is the comfort of knowing God was meeting with me in worship, yet still felt nothing. (as above, I’m not just refering to singing)
The ‘atmosphere’ felt just like that. Atmosphere. Nothing spiritual going on, at least not with me.
The problem is when this happens week after week. I agree worship isn’t about *us*, but sometimes I just want to shout out ‘why are you letting me sing to the ceiling?’ (Or ‘why are you letting me light candles simply for the sake of increasing my carbon footprint’ if you’re more alternative )
Comment by youthworkerpete — December 4, 2007 @ 3:51 pm
Leave church! It’s great out here. You never know whether you’re worshipping or not. Edgy. Can’t rest on your laurels.
…And yet God still comes to meet you – chance encounters on the street; rainbows in the sky; washing up (but mind the knife!). That’s grace.
If nothing is church, everything becomes church. If nothing is worship, everything becomes worship. If nothing is good theology, everything becomes good theology. Ditto mission. Ditto (admit it) God.
Then, and only then, can the Kingdom really start to happen. When you can’t help but see Christ in your neighbour (mirror?). It’s a taste it and see thing. IMO.
Comment by Steve Lancaster — December 4, 2007 @ 4:32 pm
I think he’s got a right to his opinion.. I think God is much more gracious towards us than we think.. I think God knows our hearts, maybe something is wrong/he is human/he needs “help” (from God, not any other human being coming from above)..Maybe it tells he is hungry for something more.
I’m sorry, but I just have trouble with the whole concept and idea of consumerism or christians being labelled as consumers in a negative sense. I mean I have heard it said by other people as well (including a youth pastor and then some frustrated people at my church complaining others don’t do as much as they do, while they are not walking a mile in these other people’s shoes or know nothing about these people’s lives- yet God does.) But yes what does it mean, and why judge, and why would it be wrong for someone to say that?? I just want to challenge that whole concept of christian consumerism. Or someone please explain to me the idea behind it.
Anyway, yes, worship is so much more than songs and singing!! Some good comments here too.
Why is he wearing a mortar board?? A profound hint by Jon? – that instead of “teaching” the situation (analyse it, judge it, fix it) I should let the situation “teach” me for once. Let whatever discontent I feel, wake me up to what needs to change in ME – well, it’s a good starting point anyway. (Just wish the Lord would make the worship group wake up to what needs to change though!)
Fab spread of opinions today! Kick-hat-snare – your comment made me chuckle! I kinda have this little fantasy that when I sing, no matter how bad it sounds, God is looking down at me like a loving dad at his kid’s nativity play. So that’s why, even when I get a bit sniffy about the ‘programme’ I try to sing it anyway. But I agree with you all, there is so much more to worship than singing. The occasional bit of silence is an interesting alternative and, for me, a bit of gazing into the night sky, especially if there is no light pollution, makes me feel as though I’ve worshipped. But there are times when I feel like He’s not taking my calls…
Glad the comment made you chuckle Carole ;]
It was meant to have a serious point though…
I’ve had the pleasure of playing with some very talented people in the music/worship world but it always comes back to the same place with me….
..I love music but what I’d love to listen/play/worship to is totally different from that of my wife….so one of us is going to walk out of almost every “worship” event we are at (even playing at) and feel like it wasn’t happening or we got distracted and couldn’t focus on God etc..etc..
Also I find that if you’re a good singer/musician/DJ or whatever you get placed on boredom rotation while the little kid with a shaker or tambourine gets the thing hidden so they don’t ruin the mood or speed up the band….
What I’m trying to say is music is a small part of worship and it can actually prevent people worshiping in spirit and in truth.
I worship best at work. I work hard, I’m faithful, I do my job to the best of my ability even when the people I work for are unjust or my staff are slack or my customers are completely ungrateful or treat me like dirt……
I worship in good and strong ’spirit’ and I uphold ‘truth’.
I hope that doesn’t sound big headed, the point is we focus on such a small part of our life (an hour or two on a sunday) when every day is calling.
On another tact, most men don’t even like singing especially about things like love and surrendering and all that kind of stuff men want to be part of a gang or a posse.
Jesus said “follow Me” not ‘love me’ not ’sing to me’ but “follow me”.
And I guess Jesus did / and gave everything at 100%
even hanging on a cross 100%
I want to live 100% in everything I do and that’s where I think I bless Gods heart.
Not through striving but just by using the skills my Father gave me….
I put up some shelves,
they hold up my books.
I made them,
they have a simple task,
they do it well,
and they bring me joy as they hold up my books.
I am like Gods shelving.
I trust my work-worship brings great joy to the father.
thanks everyone for some fine commenting.
i’m with khs on the ‘what worship is’ tack. i think what happens in church is group activity, it may or may not honour god and people may or may not be worshipping god, but we need to do something when we meet. i wonder whether church should be that place where we encourage one another to live lives that are worshipful, whatever our lives may consist of.
I like what Steve says in 15, I know where you’re coming from.
God IS everywhere.
Also, I always think, if you have a problem, stay a while and see if it’s largely personal stuff needing sorting out, but even so go ahead and offer some changes.
looks like I’m an odd fish on this blog, I love congregational singing, though have become aware of how ‘nice’ everything is in church, as though the queens butler has gone over things before they got the ok. I find I do worship in church, but also really worship to much darker music on my own – why is everything so nice in church?
I seem to have provoked something. Just to clarify, the person firmly in my sights when making those comments was me. I tend to vere towards the persuit of excellence in everything I attempt. I also tend to be critical of others. I was reading “tools for transformation” by Peter Craig Wilde and it provoked these questions about my own attitudes. You have witnessed the ongoing thought processes.
i thought what you had to say Robb was good, don’t stress.
So, can someone help?
I am interested to know what was going on in the new testament with regards to worship. We know that in the old testament we has the psalms. And i am not saying that Jesus is dismissing the old testament when he came but it does strike me that he came to show us “another way of living and worshiping”. Paul goes on to talk about our whole lives as an act of worship which would have been revolutionary compared to the sacrificing of animals.
So where in the new testament does it talk about worship (in sung form) as an act that we are to copy/mimic/replicate?
We’re the ‘No Logo’ end of the Church – the undercover love-spies – the amorists, not the terrorists!
Sometimes we even go back into church buildings and sing!
Comment by Steve Lancaster — December 5, 2007 @ 11:27 am
will, now you’ve gone and brought the NT into it. That’s just asking for trouble. The fact is that for 1500 years or more worship has been all about people feeling it not about God.
Big ol’ grand building with liturgy and ceremony made up? Where’s that? It feels religious. Why a hymn rather than a chorus? Because that’s what old time religion uses.
The only liturgy commanded by God is for the Temple. Everything else is about us feeling, or not feeling, the worship.
Course, having been on the other side of worship and ministry, sometimes not ‘feeling worship’ is not a matter of consumerism but a matter of discernment. Makes me chuckle to hear the pastors or worship leaders who threw together a last minute preparation then criticize folks for not thinking it bathed in spiritual light.
Cook a rotten hamburger, don’t be surprised by sick people you serve.
hi happy! still love that name!
i wouldn’t want to be prescriptive about what worship is because all that we do should be worship, but i will put my thinking cap on and see how i can best i can fulfill your thoughtful challenge.
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More please. I like this topic!
Comment by Nathan — December 4, 2007 @ 5:05 am
what is worship suppose to “do” for us?- never really been sure!!
Comment by soniamain — December 4, 2007 @ 8:04 am
Ask not what you can do for worship, but what worship can do for you.
Comment by jesseduley — December 4, 2007 @ 8:21 am
It was an enevitability some-one wouldn’t be able to worship now the church had employed professional musicians.
The new hip-hop worship band was more like hip-flop with the congregation.
;]
Comment by kick-hat-snare — December 4, 2007 @ 8:26 am
Worship…
.. Karaoke for the respectable middle class!
;]
Comment by kick-hat-snare — December 4, 2007 @ 8:29 am
So many times I have heard this comment and its self interested relatives;
The songs didn’t connect with me today
The prayers were too long for my liking
The scripture readings were too long to keep my attention
The worship did not lift me
The worship did not recharge me for the week ahead
Aaaaaarrrrgggghhhhhh
Come quickly Lord Jesus
Comment by marcus — December 4, 2007 @ 8:39 am
The minister at the church I grew up in always used to say “when someone says to me that they don’t like one worship song or other, I just tell them that God thought it was great!”
Comment by Tim Beadle — December 4, 2007 @ 8:51 am
I remember Israel really enjoying their worship in the book of Exodus.
But then God spoiled it when Moses returned and found them with the Golden Calf.
Comment by One Salient Oversight — December 4, 2007 @ 9:23 am
[...] Dagens från asbo Jesus: [...]
Pingback by Kristen Kyrklig Konsument — December 4, 2007 @ 9:27 am
It is a fine line between enabling people to worship through accessable forms of church service and just providing an enjoyable day out. Also, ‘worship’ is so often defined as ’singing’.
For me this cartoon raises so many issues. The intended recipient of ‘worship’ is God, not the worshipper. An accurate translation of what most people who say this type of thing mean is “I didn’t enjoy the singing this morning”. When we contemplate worship as everything we do 24/7 (like Paul) it blows the whole issue out of the water. It becomes a much more powerful act of worship to endure a 45 minute sermon on nothing in particular. We are putting ourselves out to worship God.
Therefore – rubbish worship that you come back to must be the best form of worship. Turning to God when you don’t want to.
Comment by Robb — December 4, 2007 @ 9:45 am
Whilst it’s quite right that the purpose of worship is to bless God, not the worshipper, it is another part of God’s amazing grace that when we worship him, he so often chooses to bless us as well! Unfortunately, this gracious act of God’s is often the lasting memory that people have from worship – feeling uplifted, peaceful, joyful etc. As a result, when that doesn’t happen, we assume that something’s gone wrong.
Incidentally, I don’t like to use the term bad (or even ‘rubbish’) worship. It’s part of the same problem. Worship either is or isn’t. As it’s directed to God, our opinion of it is irrelevant. Worship is sacrifice, even when we are blessed by it. But if we’re not, that doesn’t make it bad, in any way. If worship is ‘poorly presented’, that doesn’t make it bad, either, as ultimately, worship takes place in the heart or hearts of the worshipper(s).
Comment by Richard — December 4, 2007 @ 11:25 am
The point made is excellent, but like Robb seemed to be going towards styles of music can rightfully be a hindrance or a aid in singing worship to God in *SPIRIT* (perhaps not the Spirit) as well as truth.
The value of seeking to worship God even out of a weakness of desire is the single thing that might draw me to a more liturgical church, though probably not as a regular attender or member. I would have a hard time worshiping in reality when it was a struggle as a result of music style each week.
Comment by Jayson — December 4, 2007 @ 3:11 pm
Jon boy, this has really got the old brain ticking. Recently i have had a real struggle leading the sung worship at church – so instead of just ranting i will spend a bit of time in thought and come back to you with some coherent ramblings. Thanks for the prod.
Comment by will — December 4, 2007 @ 3:49 pm
Can I admit that that person is me!
Maybe not all the time, but I’ve been through difficult weeks when all I’ve wanted is the comfort of knowing God was meeting with me in worship, yet still felt nothing. (as above, I’m not just refering to singing)
The ‘atmosphere’ felt just like that. Atmosphere. Nothing spiritual going on, at least not with me.
The problem is when this happens week after week. I agree worship isn’t about *us*, but sometimes I just want to shout out ‘why are you letting me sing to the ceiling?’ (Or ‘why are you letting me light candles simply for the sake of increasing my carbon footprint’ if you’re more alternative
)
Comment by youthworkerpete — December 4, 2007 @ 3:51 pm
Leave church! It’s great out here. You never know whether you’re worshipping or not. Edgy. Can’t rest on your laurels.
…And yet God still comes to meet you – chance encounters on the street; rainbows in the sky; washing up (but mind the knife!). That’s grace.
If nothing is church, everything becomes church. If nothing is worship, everything becomes worship. If nothing is good theology, everything becomes good theology. Ditto mission. Ditto (admit it) God.
Then, and only then, can the Kingdom really start to happen. When you can’t help but see Christ in your neighbour (mirror?). It’s a taste it and see thing. IMO.
Comment by Steve Lancaster — December 4, 2007 @ 4:32 pm
I think he’s got a right to his opinion.. I think God is much more gracious towards us than we think.. I think God knows our hearts, maybe something is wrong/he is human/he needs “help” (from God, not any other human being coming from above)..Maybe it tells he is hungry for something more.
I’m sorry, but I just have trouble with the whole concept and idea of consumerism or christians being labelled as consumers in a negative sense. I mean I have heard it said by other people as well (including a youth pastor and then some frustrated people at my church complaining others don’t do as much as they do, while they are not walking a mile in these other people’s shoes or know nothing about these people’s lives- yet God does.) But yes what does it mean, and why judge, and why would it be wrong for someone to say that?? I just want to challenge that whole concept of christian consumerism. Or someone please explain to me the idea behind it.
Anyway, yes, worship is so much more than songs and singing!! Some good comments here too.
Blessings
Mimosa
Comment by Mimo — December 4, 2007 @ 4:32 pm
Why is he wearing a mortar board?? A profound hint by Jon? – that instead of “teaching” the situation (analyse it, judge it, fix it) I should let the situation “teach” me for once. Let whatever discontent I feel, wake me up to what needs to change in ME – well, it’s a good starting point anyway. (Just wish the Lord would make the worship group wake up to what needs to change though!)
Comment by Chris F — December 4, 2007 @ 4:32 pm
Fab spread of opinions today! Kick-hat-snare – your comment made me chuckle! I kinda have this little fantasy that when I sing, no matter how bad it sounds, God is looking down at me like a loving dad at his kid’s nativity play. So that’s why, even when I get a bit sniffy about the ‘programme’ I try to sing it anyway. But I agree with you all, there is so much more to worship than singing. The occasional bit of silence is an interesting alternative and, for me, a bit of gazing into the night sky, especially if there is no light pollution, makes me feel as though I’ve worshipped. But there are times when I feel like He’s not taking my calls…
Comment by Carole — December 4, 2007 @ 5:33 pm
Glad the comment made you chuckle Carole ;]
It was meant to have a serious point though…
I’ve had the pleasure of playing with some very talented people in the music/worship world but it always comes back to the same place with me….
..I love music but what I’d love to listen/play/worship to is totally different from that of my wife….so one of us is going to walk out of almost every “worship” event we are at (even playing at) and feel like it wasn’t happening or we got distracted and couldn’t focus on God etc..etc..
Also I find that if you’re a good singer/musician/DJ or whatever you get placed on boredom rotation while the little kid with a shaker or tambourine gets the thing hidden so they don’t ruin the mood or speed up the band….
What I’m trying to say is music is a small part of worship and it can actually prevent people worshiping in spirit and in truth.
I worship best at work. I work hard, I’m faithful, I do my job to the best of my ability even when the people I work for are unjust or my staff are slack or my customers are completely ungrateful or treat me like dirt……
I worship in good and strong ’spirit’ and I uphold ‘truth’.
I hope that doesn’t sound big headed, the point is we focus on such a small part of our life (an hour or two on a sunday) when every day is calling.
On another tact, most men don’t even like singing especially about things like love and surrendering and all that kind of stuff men want to be part of a gang or a posse.
Jesus said “follow Me” not ‘love me’ not ’sing to me’ but “follow me”.
And I guess Jesus did / and gave everything at 100%
even hanging on a cross 100%
I want to live 100% in everything I do and that’s where I think I bless Gods heart.
Not through striving but just by using the skills my Father gave me….
I put up some shelves,
they hold up my books.
I made them,
they have a simple task,
they do it well,
and they bring me joy as they hold up my books.
I am like Gods shelving.
I trust my work-worship brings great joy to the father.
Now go out and workship ;]
Comment by kick-hat-snare — December 4, 2007 @ 8:19 pm
thanks everyone for some fine commenting.
i’m with khs on the ‘what worship is’ tack. i think what happens in church is group activity, it may or may not honour god and people may or may not be worshipping god, but we need to do something when we meet. i wonder whether church should be that place where we encourage one another to live lives that are worshipful, whatever our lives may consist of.
Comment by jonbirch — December 4, 2007 @ 9:01 pm
I like what Steve says in 15, I know where you’re coming from.
God IS everywhere.
Also, I always think, if you have a problem, stay a while and see if it’s largely personal stuff needing sorting out, but even so go ahead and offer some changes.
Make the change if you’re unhappy
Comment by Sarah — December 4, 2007 @ 9:41 pm
looks like I’m an odd fish on this blog, I love congregational singing, though have become aware of how ‘nice’ everything is in church, as though the queens butler has gone over things before they got the ok. I find I do worship in church, but also really worship to much darker music on my own – why is everything so nice in church?
Comment by subo — December 4, 2007 @ 11:34 pm
I seem to have provoked something. Just to clarify, the person firmly in my sights when making those comments was me. I tend to vere towards the persuit of excellence in everything I attempt. I also tend to be critical of others. I was reading “tools for transformation” by Peter Craig Wilde and it provoked these questions about my own attitudes. You have witnessed the ongoing thought processes.
Comment by Robb — December 5, 2007 @ 12:00 am
i thought your comments were cool robb… and your thoughts are more than welcome here.
Comment by jonbirch — December 5, 2007 @ 12:15 am
i thought what you had to say Robb was good, don’t stress.
So, can someone help?
I am interested to know what was going on in the new testament with regards to worship. We know that in the old testament we has the psalms. And i am not saying that Jesus is dismissing the old testament when he came but it does strike me that he came to show us “another way of living and worshiping”. Paul goes on to talk about our whole lives as an act of worship which would have been revolutionary compared to the sacrificing of animals.
So where in the new testament does it talk about worship (in sung form) as an act that we are to copy/mimic/replicate?
Comment by will — December 5, 2007 @ 9:04 am
Thanks, Sarah (21)!
We’re the ‘No Logo’ end of the Church – the undercover love-spies – the amorists, not the terrorists!
Sometimes we even go back into church buildings and sing!
Comment by Steve Lancaster — December 5, 2007 @ 11:27 am
will, now you’ve gone and brought the NT into it. That’s just asking for trouble. The fact is that for 1500 years or more worship has been all about people feeling it not about God.
Big ol’ grand building with liturgy and ceremony made up? Where’s that? It feels religious. Why a hymn rather than a chorus? Because that’s what old time religion uses.
The only liturgy commanded by God is for the Temple. Everything else is about us feeling, or not feeling, the worship.
Course, having been on the other side of worship and ministry, sometimes not ‘feeling worship’ is not a matter of consumerism but a matter of discernment. Makes me chuckle to hear the pastors or worship leaders who threw together a last minute preparation then criticize folks for not thinking it bathed in spiritual light.
Cook a rotten hamburger, don’t be surprised by sick people you serve.
Comment by Patrick — December 5, 2007 @ 11:40 am
I don’t care if you don’t sing another song for the rest of your life. Just get out there and love people.
Sas
Comment by Sarah — December 5, 2007 @ 9:10 pm
Sas, if you were near me I’d run over and give you a hug ;]
Comment by kick-hat-snare — December 5, 2007 @ 9:44 pm
Good stuff, everybody. Thank you for such a thought-provoking forum.
Will: Romans 15, 1 Corinthians 14:15, Ephesians 5:19-20, Colossians 3:15-17, Hebrews 2:11-12, James 5:13
there’s biblical precedent for singing, even in the NT.
hope that’s helpful.
this conversation made me think of a video i just posted from youtube on my blog… html’s not my strongpoint, but i think this the link: worship
jon, what about a series on what worship SHOULD be?
Comment by Happy — December 9, 2007 @ 6:02 pm
hi happy! still love that name!
i wouldn’t want to be prescriptive about what worship is because all that we do should be worship, but i will put my thinking cap on and see how i can best i can fulfill your thoughtful challenge.
Comment by jonbirch — December 9, 2007 @ 7:46 pm
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