Jon, I do like your stuff, and you make some fantastic points, but you do come across as really cynical… is there anything about modern current expressions of Christianity you do like?
Keep up the good work…
andy
I think some of the overly cynical things that are put accros in the cartoons provoke me to thought rather than instant dismissal of something or someone.
I love modern day worship music in a communal church setting. I am a guitarist and do lead musical aspects of worship. I think the issue I have is that modern worship tends to have a musical category of it’s own. When do you think HMV would have sections for “rock”, “funk”, “soul”, “blues”, “classical” and “worship”. Many charismatics (of which category I place myself on occasion, but then what category on’t I put myself into?) say things like “without the acoustic guitar it isn’t worshipful” and insist on this strange new genre of music.
In many respects I think that CCM producers limit the songwriters in their studio time because of budget and try to produce something that will appeal to a mass auience. Unfortunatly the older auience will buy a bland CD in greater numbers than the smaller appeal of a group such as the OC Suprtones who have a specific Punk/SKA influence to their music.
A rather unpopular opinion of mine is that Bob Dylan writes excellent songs but can’t play ‘em. I love many of the songs by the thinkly veiled artists above but I prefer them when they are played by someone else.
Comment by muffinmn0302 — December 5, 2007 @ 1:41 pm
Hmmm… I don’t always agree with you but I do enjoy the fact that some of your items are really thought-provoking. I really think this one borders on crossin the line.
I’m not sure how familiar you are with Integrity, but if you look you’ll find they’ve been shipping music out in the same format for 25 years – long before worship became the CCM movement. Most of the time, Integrity’s stuff is done in a live setting at churches that are not always well known (though they do frequent some churches – Hillsong, Lakewood, etc.)
Maybe naming people and labels isn’t the best way to communicate the message.
i knew this one would get some reaction. i’d done the cartoon, the choice was should i let other people see it or not.
andym… yep i’m cynical about some things. i like some hymns and songs. i like prayer, particularly intercession. i like scripture. i like poetry. i really really like a good wrestle with the issues we face in our world. most of all though, i love the people.
muffinmn0302… thanks for getting it.
matthew… asbo produced this cd, so i guess that makes me responsible.
the christian music business is just that, a business. it produces good and bad and its goal is to sell stuff. it’s like the x-factor with stars and celebs who have the same ambitions as those people do.
actually, i very much like graham kendrick from what i know of him as a bloke. met him when we were both doing something and i found him to be a very humble and unassuming man, unlike many others who i won’t mention.
the thinly veiled names in the cartoon are all probarbly very nice chaps, i wouldn’t question that.
andym… i also really love the charitable works the church is always engaged in, that makes me proud and is perhaps the best corporate act of worship as well as individual that the church engages in.
i also really like expressions of worship that are truly born out of the community. i once was in a service where a little old lady got up and sang in a really frail voice the old song ‘count your blessings one by one’ and i filled up completely… i remember it over 30 years later. you see, that’s given me an idea for a cartoon… it’s a rich person counting up all they own whilst singing the same song. see how my mind works?
That is well funny, as the saying goes. Actually, do you fancy recording it? I’m sure someone like Adrian Plass could supply suitable lyrics in the style of his wonderful ‘Gleam Jesus Gleam’ (from ‘A Year at St Yorick’s).
For me you balance cynicsm and humour just right. Lovin’ it, to use another cliche.
Comment by Brit Windel — December 5, 2007 @ 3:27 pm
job – love your stuff. Just wanted to make a comment on one thing you said:
“the christian music business is just that, a business. it produces good and bad and its goal is to sell stuff. it’s like the x-factor with stars and celebs who have the same ambitions as those people do”
Yes – it produces good and bad
Yes and no – it’s just a business whose goal is to sell stuff. I’m in the Vineyard movement and actually the primary aim is ministry, and most of the money goes into other forms of church ministry rather than to “artists”. I don’t know a single person in it for the same reasons as X Factor contestants!! (myself included).
hey catriona… adrian plass. love that man! thanks for the comment.
hi jesse. ‘job’ is fine with me.
i actually believe the artists should get most of the money and they should get to decide what they do with it. otherwise it’s quite controlling. that’s what normally happens in ones work.
I don’t think you’re cynical, Jon. I think you just look at things in an offbeat way, see the absurdity in life, and let’s face it, there’s plenty about. I quite like a lot of the stuff from the ‘modern worship’ stable (including Red Manmatt!). Sadly the songs which have most appeal in recorded format don’t always work in a congregational setting but it doesn’t stop worship leaders trying to foist their completely inappropriate favourites on unassuming punters in the pews with dire consequences.
Anyway, we have seen from the previous posts that it quite possible to worship Him at the kitchen sink (amongst other places) if not praise Him on the kitchen sink. Next question, is it a skiffle album and, if so, who is on the washboard?
hahaha! less of the ‘little’, i’m almost 6 feet 2 inches tall i’ll have you know!
it’s similar to skiffle… if you listen very carefully to the cd you’ll hear richard noel playing sweet rhythms on draining board (it’s like the washboard but with a deeper, richer sound). how many copies would you like to order?
Good job I know you Mr Birch, or I’d have to assume you were a fascist!
btw Hugh Timms is gonna be bummed out that he didn’t make the CD. I think his ability to bring the best out in the waste disposal unit will be sorely missed on this release!
down in the bowl you clean my soul
out on the rack you bring me back
soul cleaning, shine gleaming
spirit of the Lord
(repeat endlessly until congregation are ready to faint and then bridge to the close in different key)
In the washer of life you can lose your strife
All God’s bubbles can clear your muddles
Jon, just so you know, not having a dishwasher doesn’t automatically score you green points.
If you have a more than two person household a small A or A+ grade dishwasher fully loaded is often more environmentally friendly than washing up by hand!
Yet another reason for us all to have kids and bulk up the number of peeps in our homes!
You don’t know who Hugh Timms is??????
Jon you must get to your nearest charismaniac church service and experience the joy of ‘here i am to worship’…
You’d love it it’s just your thing!
(actually it’s not bad and by all accounts Tim is a top bloke)
Hehe… I’ve been lurking for a while now. It’s encouraging to see I’m not alone in my thoughts about the overemphasis of music & singing in our worship, and the Christian music industry. Actually, the general Christian industry. I just recieved a bible as a birthday present and discovered it was printed in China, of all places. Guess someone wasn’t reading the contents…
Comment by Andy in Germany — December 6, 2007 @ 10:59 am
I believe that thinking and questioning are not just important but are actually our moral responsibilty as Christians. God gave us brains, why would he want us to shut them off? So while I don’t always agree with you (I’m inclined to be in agreement with Matthew Dahniel’s post on this cartoon) I love what you’re doing.
Keep up the good work, questioning, keep challenging us and most of all keep making us laugh.
(this post was originally much more detailed and well thought out but i lost it… this is the condensed, ‘i can’t be bothered to type all that out again’ version!)
thank you tom c. you said it well in a nutshell. it’s funny you know, i feel far more vulnerability than the cartoons display, so comments like this are very helpful. thanks again.
yeh khs… stop accusing sas of things she hasn’t done!
Hi Guy’s, it’s groovy to be able to imaginatively pop into a church context, and see ourselves with fresh eyes, perhaps it’s because the Kingdom of God is so important, that we really need to debunk the ‘imitation’.
have become aware of how angst ridden rather than free church’s can be, I’m the worst at this, fearing ungodliness in all it’s varied forms, and damning my brother in the process.
This is the first time I’ve looked at this blog and it will be the last. What’s clever about trying to make me feel stupid because I like the kind of music you are being “amusing” about and find it an aid to worship? Personally I can’t stand Handel’s Messiah – couldn’t he think of any more words than “Hallelujah”? But the difference is I realise other people do like that kind of music and don’t try to be smart about it.
hi agatha… i’m only sorry you won’t be back to receive this message then. you are welcome here even if your views differ from my own… that’s fine with me. you’ll notice you’re not alone in questioning this cartoon and that’s fine too. i’m not claiming any moral high ground here just trying to get the conversation started… feel free to join in.
I LOVE THE HALLELUJAH CHORUS!!! I chose it to be played while I was in labour with my second child. Unfortunately, I got the timing all wrong and the chorus arrived before the baby. Ah well, you can’t win ‘em all! It did revive my drooping spirits.
Jon, I do like your stuff, and you make some fantastic points, but you do come across as really cynical… is there anything about modern current expressions of Christianity you do like?
Keep up the good work…
andy
Comment by andym — December 5, 2007 @ 1:13 pm
I think some of the overly cynical things that are put accros in the cartoons provoke me to thought rather than instant dismissal of something or someone.
I love modern day worship music in a communal church setting. I am a guitarist and do lead musical aspects of worship. I think the issue I have is that modern worship tends to have a musical category of it’s own. When do you think HMV would have sections for “rock”, “funk”, “soul”, “blues”, “classical” and “worship”. Many charismatics (of which category I place myself on occasion, but then what category on’t I put myself into?) say things like “without the acoustic guitar it isn’t worshipful” and insist on this strange new genre of music.
In many respects I think that CCM producers limit the songwriters in their studio time because of budget and try to produce something that will appeal to a mass auience. Unfortunatly the older auience will buy a bland CD in greater numbers than the smaller appeal of a group such as the OC Suprtones who have a specific Punk/SKA influence to their music.
A rather unpopular opinion of mine is that Bob Dylan writes excellent songs but can’t play ‘em. I love many of the songs by the thinkly veiled artists above but I prefer them when they are played by someone else.
Comment by muffinmn0302 — December 5, 2007 @ 1:41 pm
Hmmm… I don’t always agree with you but I do enjoy the fact that some of your items are really thought-provoking. I really think this one borders on crossin the line.
I’m not sure how familiar you are with Integrity, but if you look you’ll find they’ve been shipping music out in the same format for 25 years – long before worship became the CCM movement. Most of the time, Integrity’s stuff is done in a live setting at churches that are not always well known (though they do frequent some churches – Hillsong, Lakewood, etc.)
Maybe naming people and labels isn’t the best way to communicate the message.
Comment by Matthew Dahniel — December 5, 2007 @ 2:00 pm
Hilarious! Good stuff, Sir.
Comment by Jason — December 5, 2007 @ 2:16 pm
i knew this one would get some reaction. i’d done the cartoon, the choice was should i let other people see it or not.
andym… yep i’m cynical about some things. i like some hymns and songs. i like prayer, particularly intercession. i like scripture. i like poetry. i really really like a good wrestle with the issues we face in our world. most of all though, i love the people.
muffinmn0302… thanks for getting it.
matthew… asbo produced this cd, so i guess that makes me responsible.
the christian music business is just that, a business. it produces good and bad and its goal is to sell stuff. it’s like the x-factor with stars and celebs who have the same ambitions as those people do.
actually, i very much like graham kendrick from what i know of him as a bloke. met him when we were both doing something and i found him to be a very humble and unassuming man, unlike many others who i won’t mention.
the thinly veiled names in the cartoon are all probarbly very nice chaps, i wouldn’t question that.
jason… yeh i thought it was funny.
Comment by jonbirch — December 5, 2007 @ 2:59 pm
andym… i also really love the charitable works the church is always engaged in, that makes me proud and is perhaps the best corporate act of worship as well as individual that the church engages in.
i also really like expressions of worship that are truly born out of the community. i once was in a service where a little old lady got up and sang in a really frail voice the old song ‘count your blessings one by one’ and i filled up completely… i remember it over 30 years later. you see, that’s given me an idea for a cartoon… it’s a rich person counting up all they own whilst singing the same song. see how my mind works?
Comment by jonbirch — December 5, 2007 @ 3:13 pm
That is well funny, as the saying goes. Actually, do you fancy recording it? I’m sure someone like Adrian Plass could supply suitable lyrics in the style of his wonderful ‘Gleam Jesus Gleam’ (from ‘A Year at St Yorick’s).
For me you balance cynicsm and humour just right. Lovin’ it, to use another cliche.
Comment by Catriona — December 5, 2007 @ 3:26 pm
i love it you cynical man you
Comment by Brit Windel — December 5, 2007 @ 3:27 pm
job – love your stuff. Just wanted to make a comment on one thing you said:
“the christian music business is just that, a business. it produces good and bad and its goal is to sell stuff. it’s like the x-factor with stars and celebs who have the same ambitions as those people do”
Yes – it produces good and bad
Yes and no – it’s just a business whose goal is to sell stuff. I’m in the Vineyard movement and actually the primary aim is ministry, and most of the money goes into other forms of church ministry rather than to “artists”. I don’t know a single person in it for the same reasons as X Factor contestants!! (myself included).
Comment by jesse — December 5, 2007 @ 4:37 pm
oops, didn’t mean job, meant jon. that darn b is so close to the n.
Comment by jesse — December 5, 2007 @ 4:37 pm
hey catriona… adrian plass. love that man! thanks for the comment.
hi jesse. ‘job’ is fine with me.
i actually believe the artists should get most of the money and they should get to decide what they do with it. otherwise it’s quite controlling. that’s what normally happens in ones work.
cheers brit… just being my usual cheeky self.
Comment by jonbirch — December 5, 2007 @ 5:55 pm
I don’t think you’re cynical, Jon. I think you just look at things in an offbeat way, see the absurdity in life, and let’s face it, there’s plenty about. I quite like a lot of the stuff from the ‘modern worship’ stable (including Red Manmatt!). Sadly the songs which have most appeal in recorded format don’t always work in a congregational setting but it doesn’t stop worship leaders trying to foist their completely inappropriate favourites on unassuming punters in the pews with dire consequences.
Anyway, we have seen from the previous posts that it quite possible to worship Him at the kitchen sink (amongst other places) if not praise Him on the kitchen sink. Next question, is it a skiffle album and, if so, who is on the washboard?
You provocative little man!!!
Comment by Carole — December 5, 2007 @ 6:00 pm
hahaha! less of the ‘little’, i’m almost 6 feet 2 inches tall i’ll have you know!
it’s similar to skiffle… if you listen very carefully to the cd you’ll hear richard noel playing sweet rhythms on draining board (it’s like the washboard but with a deeper, richer sound). how many copies would you like to order?
Comment by jonbirch — December 5, 2007 @ 6:23 pm
Holy spirit, you’re the plug
Stop my bottom and fill me up
When I get that sinking feeling
Shower me with love!
Wa-hey
Bubble Bubble
Shower me with love!
Comment by Steve Lancaster — December 5, 2007 @ 6:35 pm
lord, place me in your holy sink
remove my tarnish and my stink
so i may be of use again
free from grease and free from stain.
pour water into grimey folds
then take me in your marigolds
with fairy liquid in my soul
you’ll clean me up and make me whole.
for i am such a mucky pup
and you, o lord are washer up
when you call us by and by
please don’t leave me out to dry.
Comment by jonbirch — December 5, 2007 @ 6:50 pm
Album No.2 is on its way, then?
Comment by Carole — December 5, 2007 @ 6:52 pm
Father, Holy Ghost and Son
Just like Finish you’re 3 in 1
We know your Church is getting posher
You used a bowl: we’ve a dish-washer
Comment by Steve Lancaster — December 5, 2007 @ 7:20 pm
Very funny everyone.
My thoughts were as Carole’s – praise him AT the kitchen sink.
And no we don’t have a dishwasher. Do that make me grubby?!
Sas
Comment by Sarah — December 5, 2007 @ 9:05 pm
It’s like shooting fish in a barrel…….
…fun, but wrong.
Good job I know you Mr Birch, or I’d have to assume you were a fascist!
btw Hugh Timms is gonna be bummed out that he didn’t make the CD. I think his ability to bring the best out in the waste disposal unit will be sorely missed on this release!
;]
Comment by kick-hat-snare — December 5, 2007 @ 9:14 pm
down in the bowl you clean my soul
out on the rack you bring me back
soul cleaning, shine gleaming
spirit of the Lord
(repeat endlessly until congregation are ready to faint and then bridge to the close in different key)
In the washer of life you can lose your strife
All God’s bubbles can clear your muddles
Comment by marcus — December 5, 2007 @ 9:31 pm
hey khs… hugh timms is gonna be even more bummed out when i say ‘who’s hugh timms?’.
great rhyming everyone!
sas… not having a dishwasher makes you clean and green… full marks! like you, i agree with carole.
Comment by jonbirch — December 5, 2007 @ 10:59 pm
Jon, just so you know, not having a dishwasher doesn’t automatically score you green points.
If you have a more than two person household a small A or A+ grade dishwasher fully loaded is often more environmentally friendly than washing up by hand!
Yet another reason for us all to have kids and bulk up the number of peeps in our homes!
You don’t know who Hugh Timms is??????
Jon you must get to your nearest charismaniac church service and experience the joy of ‘here i am to worship’…
You’d love it it’s just your thing!
(actually it’s not bad and by all accounts Tim is a top bloke)
;]
Comment by kick-hat-snare — December 5, 2007 @ 11:37 pm
sorry about the dishwasher thing sas! seems you’re bad after all!
Comment by jonbirch — December 6, 2007 @ 1:22 am
Hehe… I’ve been lurking for a while now. It’s encouraging to see I’m not alone in my thoughts about the overemphasis of music & singing in our worship, and the Christian music industry. Actually, the general Christian industry. I just recieved a bible as a birthday present and discovered it was printed in China, of all places. Guess someone wasn’t reading the contents…
Comment by Andy in Germany — December 6, 2007 @ 10:59 am
I believe that thinking and questioning are not just important but are actually our moral responsibilty as Christians. God gave us brains, why would he want us to shut them off? So while I don’t always agree with you (I’m inclined to be in agreement with Matthew Dahniel’s post on this cartoon) I love what you’re doing.
Keep up the good work, questioning, keep challenging us and most of all keep making us laugh.
(this post was originally much more detailed and well thought out but i lost it… this is the condensed, ‘i can’t be bothered to type all that out again’ version!)
Comment by Tom C — December 6, 2007 @ 2:28 pm
Hey KKS! We are only a two person household
Sas x
I like the communal aspect of whatever job it is, be it loading a fishwasher, if you need one, to blogging on this blog.
What’s a fishwasher?! Groan—don’t go back to the old topic please…
Sas
ps hand very good got some antibis as some cellular infection but doing OK thanks a lot Guys
Sas x
Comment by Sarah — December 6, 2007 @ 5:02 pm
thank you tom c. you said it well in a nutshell. it’s funny you know, i feel far more vulnerability than the cartoons display, so comments like this are very helpful. thanks again.
yeh khs… stop accusing sas of things she hasn’t done!
Comment by jonbirch — December 6, 2007 @ 5:29 pm
Hi Guy’s, it’s groovy to be able to imaginatively pop into a church context, and see ourselves with fresh eyes, perhaps it’s because the Kingdom of God is so important, that we really need to debunk the ‘imitation’.
have become aware of how angst ridden rather than free church’s can be, I’m the worst at this, fearing ungodliness in all it’s varied forms, and damning my brother in the process.
here’s to ‘The Blues Brothers’.
Comment by subo — December 6, 2007 @ 8:05 pm
You bet. I’m going to *shake* it up.
Sas x
Comment by Sarah — December 7, 2007 @ 12:20 am
Jon, re 27….we’re all that vulnerable, I dont’ know one person who isn’t, I know I am.
We’re a curious mix aren’t we.
With Love,
Sas x
Comment by Sarah — December 7, 2007 @ 12:24 am
aren’t we just.
x
Comment by jonbirch — December 7, 2007 @ 12:33 am
This is the first time I’ve looked at this blog and it will be the last. What’s clever about trying to make me feel stupid because I like the kind of music you are being “amusing” about and find it an aid to worship? Personally I can’t stand Handel’s Messiah – couldn’t he think of any more words than “Hallelujah”? But the difference is I realise other people do like that kind of music and don’t try to be smart about it.
Comment by Agatha — December 10, 2007 @ 9:38 pm
hi agatha… i’m only sorry you won’t be back to receive this message then. you are welcome here even if your views differ from my own… that’s fine with me. you’ll notice you’re not alone in questioning this cartoon and that’s fine too. i’m not claiming any moral high ground here just trying to get the conversation started… feel free to join in.
Comment by jonbirch — December 10, 2007 @ 11:43 pm
I LOVE THE HALLELUJAH CHORUS!!! I chose it to be played while I was in labour with my second child. Unfortunately, I got the timing all wrong and the chorus arrived before the baby. Ah well, you can’t win ‘em all! It did revive my drooping spirits.
Comment by Carole — December 11, 2007 @ 9:24 am
that sounds epic!
Comment by jonbirch — December 11, 2007 @ 10:19 am
Carole – I can see it know- push on the `Hallelujah` …`for the Lord God omnipotent–AaRGGHH JUST GIVEN BIRTH!
Sas
Comment by Sarah — December 11, 2007 @ 10:39 pm
I just wanted my baby to make an entrance – or an exit, depending on how you look at it!
Comment by Carole — December 12, 2007 @ 12:15 am
And I’m sure your child is growing into a fine young lad/lass.
Lots of love,
Sarah x
Comment by Sarah — December 13, 2007 @ 12:16 am
Comment by jonbirch — December 13, 2007 @ 12:59 am
She’s a well scary 14 year-old. She scares me, anyway!
Comment by Carole — December 13, 2007 @ 8:38 am
The 14 year olds in our church scare my husband!
They also love him very much.
Night night,
Sas
Comment by Sarah — December 14, 2007 @ 12:01 am
14 year old girls really scared me when i was 14.
Comment by jonbirch — December 14, 2007 @ 12:30 am