This sort of problem would be appropriate in any church that has a top-down leadership structure, such as Anglicans or some caro churches who obey their pastor no matter what.
Churches that are congregational – like Baptist ones – would have the pastor on the rack and the congregation torturing him.
As a Pastor there have been a few people I would love to place on the rack…but I keep asking God for more love for such people – and there have been a few times when I have discerned that I have been on the rack and have tried loving the operator!
The whole issue of control gets me quite mad – I have had such allegations leveled against me and I have seen times when others have quite blatantly tried to control situations within congregations – my response each time is that I never want control and will never allow any one person to try and grasp control over decision making – because at the end of the day this is not my Church or your Church it’s God’s Church and I believe the best way forward for church government is to share the decision making among the people so that together we seek to discern the mind of Christ.
But then church politics are a funny thing because sometimes one person making all the decisions can at times do a good job and at other times a really bad job as can all the people making the decisions – after all we are all human and all fallible – God have mercy on us all whatever our church government and politics.
If you find the perfect church, don’t go there ‘cos you’ll only spoil it, so people sometimes say. All churches are made up of fallible human beings who all come equipped with their own gifts and insecurities. People are ambitious, zealous, envious etc in the business world – if the church is a true microcosm, you will find all these factors at play here, too.
As Zefi says, leaders dislike losing control. The flip side of a blessing could be a curse. Maybe we don’t have gifts as such, just qualities and it is how we use those qualities that determines whether it is a gift or not. Is somebody a good leader or a control freak? My guess is that depends on the circumstances and the group dynamic.
I know a guy, who is essentially a sound geezer on an occasional social basis but has a vast ego. He is involved in overseas mission work. It is his church mission, but really it is his personal project (or his vocation?). In the past, he has been quite cavalier with other people’s safety and caused great anxiety to my friends when enlisting their help for his projects. He has placed his marriage under unneccessary strain by giving up his paid job to concentrate on his travels. But this self-styled Indiana Jones has helped to motivate people to achieve some marvellous things abroad. Would he have done it if ego hadn’t blinded him to potential risk? Probably not.
I find it helpful occasionally to step outside of my own vulnerabilities and try to perceive things from a different perspective. That said, sometimes it is hard to find saving graces, even then.
Sorry if this seems to stray from the point of the cartoon a bit. But I think that even if you don’t have a top-down hierarchy, there will always be dominant personalities and at times this may lead to abuses of power.
I don’t think this is necessarily the pastor or the pastee (pasty? chicken please, or a steak bake).
As christians we have our circles of heresy. “I am the only true correct thinker. You are nearly the same in your thinking therefore you are in my accepted group of associates. These people over here are heretics and must be condemned and hunted down like dogs.”
This becomes most amusing when you visualise the concentric circles of herecy within the body of christ.
My thoughts from your comments take me once again to Rob Bell’s ‘Velvet Elvis’.
It’s time for a more humble theology from some leadership.
That said, it’s also time for some church leaders to get a backbone and believe in something worth committing too! There’s nothing worse than a vicar/pastor that is too busy being swung by each convincing agruement to have a well thought out theology they think God is leading them too!
Comment by youthworkerpete — December 19, 2007 @ 10:55 am
Carole is right, to get a project off the ground and motivate people does require a lot of self confidence. I doubt if it’s possible to have this and not go over the top sometimes and become too controlling. It’s the way it is and we just have to watch out for each other and I always hope someone will tell me I’m an idiot when I’m being silly.
This issue is seriously moderated in places, like many baptist churches, where good congregational governance happens.
But yes, the kind of “my way or the highway” stuff that goes on – however subtly- is counter to true Christian leadership, or discipleship.
“Dont be like the gentiles,” said Jesus, “for they have leaders that lord it over them, it shouldn’t be the same with you. You should serve one another”
It seems like people are confusing the word “discipling” with “disciplining.”
Is it the elders or pastors’ job to beat the congregation they serve into shape?
It breaks my heart when the congregation had to put their cart in front of their donkey because of how the church leaders push them, but I feel more sad when the leaders have to do that because of the expectations of the congregation.
When I said “leaders have to do that because of the expectations of the congregation,” I meant when leaders have to put their cart in front of their donkeys.
You know….If you do just one more cartoon, that awful one of the guy being shot in the eye will fall off the page, and I won’t have to see it every day. She says hopefully…
Zefi, I mean “stretch” in a positive sense! (doesn’t fit with the cartoon but there) – to help people to see beyond where they’ve reached, to keep going, to stretch out (“strain on towards the goal” as Paul puts it in Philippians) towards the God who is always calling us onwards.
We will each need someone to push us on from behind, call us forward from ahead, and to walk beside us – and to tell us to stop and take a break – from time to time
zefu said “Is it the elders or pastors’ job to beat the congregation they serve into shape?”
Both, ideally. The pastor is essentially a teaching elder.
Ephesians 4.11-15
And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather,speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ.
I take it that this role that pastors have doesn’t involve putting people on the rack (as per Jon’s cartoon). Instead, it is about speaking the truth in love.
i think that there can be a real problem with a top down approach when churches start thinking about vision. The leadership, pastors and elders can all have a vision and then they try and impart that vision to everyone else. This can prove really hard to get everyone on board. If the whole community of the church (and even those outside it) come together with a vision then it will probably get there.
i think a corporate vision (agenda) will always crush someone. if we live to serve the corporate vision we become blind to need. unless that vision is love god and love your neighbour. have dreams and visions by all means, but never enslave people to them. that’s just wrong.
laura (14)… sorry that cartoon has caused you so much distress… it will indeed be gone soon… just in time for the run up to christmas…. hooray!
i think church at its worst adopts the business model of corporate vision. how many businessmen burn out? answer… loads! we see the same in church. that may even be one of the reasons the emergent church got going…. but it is also subject to the same pitfalls. love, love, love, then love some more… that’s the only way i reckon.
Laura: We may have differing versions of vision but let me try and explain where i am coming from:
At our church we want to find ways to serve the community. But ways that the community actually want. In the relationships we have built up in the community – people my wife and i call friends now – we have conversations. When there is a need we work together to fill that need. We have had church and “non church” people working together doing garden makeovers – helping people who are going through bankruptcy with their accounts not people from the church but others in the network that has been created – because of the fact that we are there – and through no selling of a vision, a corporate vision of community has evolved. Everyone who comes into contact with the growing group of people are shocked by this.
People our looking out for people. One or two from that have made their way into the church walls but most hold the same vision.
I really hope not too many non-Christian visit this site.
No offence, but although quite a few points made in these cartoons are accurate in a number of cases–they are neither representative of the church as a whole, nor fair.
Cynicism is one thing, but making Christianity seem absolutely awful is another.
We should be praying and acting to change any problems within the modern church, rather than ridiculing it out in the open and putting people off Christianity even more.
That said, I enjoy quite a lot of these strips. I guess it’s finding a balance between humour and ridicule.
“We should be praying and acting to change any problems within the modern church, rather than ridiculing it out in the open and putting people off Christianity even more.”
Sometimes the only way to address these problems properly is to put them out in the open. The church has too often swept things under the carpet and been too hush hush about things.
Unbelievers who might see these cartoons and have their preconceptions validated were probably never going to understand anyway. For those who are truly interested in Christ, exposure to the sinful and dark side of church life is essential since they’ll eventually realise it themselves via experience.
hi tusk. thanks for the comment. i think that trying to be honest about who we are and what we can be like as individuals and institutions is healthy. the questions and coversations the cartoons raise are hopefully healthy. people looking in on church from another perspective may already have many criticisms of their own, many of which may be similar to the issues raised in the cartoons. hopefully when people from other perspectives see this site they at least see christians attempting to be honest and soul searching. we don’t always agree but we can debate rigorously and with respect for one another. that is my hope. ‘ridicule’ is a funny one… sometimes i feel like i’m ridiculing the ridiculous, if you know what i mean. but i don’t assume i have it right… these are simply some of my thoughts put down as cartoons. thanks for joining in.
Unbelievers is an interesting term. It implies a conious choice to become an “unbeliever” rather than a passive lack of interest.
I don’t think presenting Christianity as “we’re all perfect now” is the way forward. We seem to have given the impression to “unbelievers” throughout the centuries that being a christian means being “sinless” rather than “forgiven”. In the UK this is the popular opinion of Jeo Blogs. Christians claim to be perfect.
This all falls apart when we do something wrong – “you’re not supposed to…”
Do’h. If we’re honest from the start and “publish the sinners friend” rather than the pharises justification (as done in many of these cartoons) then we may find that we get somewhere.
good stuff, robb.
also, i think i’m trying to express the fact that we are not all simply ‘fine’ with the way some things are in christendom. it seems that some christians do find this blog empathetiic (that was my hope)… and i also hope people of a different view might look at the church in a more favourable light by seeing critical cartoons and healthy debate. as you say robb, there are a lot of blogs about how great things are, maybe this blog helps restore a balance… i don’t know.
I think that the humour in these cartoons would make an awful lot of non-Christians feel more sympathetic towards Christians, in that they do not portray us blindly towing any party line but rather working through our problem areas of faith and church as free thinking individuals. Jon’s cartoons are provocative, yes, but that promotes brilliant discussion. It’s like therapy; the questioning helps to strenghthen belief in the important stuff. The charge of cynicism that is quite often made against this site saddens me a bit, because over the last year, this has developed into a real community, as real and supportive as anything I’ve experienced in the ‘real world’. Those who comment are being honest and at times making themselves quite vulnerable in expressing their deepest thoughts and feelings. Often somebody can mention something which causes you to rethink your own views but this is all done with warmth and in love. When you get down to the heart of the matter, this is one of the least cynical sites around. In my experience, most don’t even get close to the heart of the matter.
And I want to thank EVERYONE for this site. It IS a community for me too. Thanks Jon. The guy I sit opposite at work is growing in respect of me because I’m saying things like I don’t have to defend my religion, it’s not an empire. My work backs up my words too.
thank you all… sarah is right. thanks carole for stating it as i feel it… you know i’m really not a cynical person, thank you for understanding.
to be fair, i’ve not been labelled too many times, and even the labels in a strange way encourage me to continue. i very much value the community which is developing here, the warmth is staggering and the conversation stimulating and real.
i often feel vulnerable putting up posts believe it or not, but i shall continue to do so… this is the most authentically ‘me’ thing i’m doing right now and has become a very valuable part of my life.
i am very grateful to all of you.
whoever goes to greenbelt next year, we should meet up and say hello.
One Salient Oversight:
I’m glad that you categorize a pastor as an elder.
If so, I hope you wouldn’t miss out on 1 Peter chapter 5, especially verse 3.
Tusk:
Although there’s few, which one among us wanted to make fun of our own family? It’s like spitting at our own face.
But if people never stop to wonder about the fact that we’re not leaving this family even when it’s so messy, and the fact that we are free to be honest about our real condition, I’m speechless.
Too often we present ourselves as problem-free people, that many who join the family later on felt cheated by the superficial mask we put on.
And too often we fear to present ourselves as who we currently are, for fear of tainting the name of Christ.
Yes, freedom is to be exercised with responsibility, but why does it seems as if we often exercise that responsibility when we have not yet accept the freedom given to us?
nice point zefi. some leaders fear freedom because they can’t control it… while good leaders encourage, nurture and allow people to grow. sometimes i feel people become like stunted plants because the pot they’ve been given to grow in is too small.
This sort of problem would be appropriate in any church that has a top-down leadership structure, such as Anglicans or some caro churches who obey their pastor no matter what.
Churches that are congregational – like Baptist ones – would have the pastor on the rack and the congregation torturing him.
Comment by One Salient Oversight — December 19, 2007 @ 3:26 am
i agree you could turn it round easily.
Comment by jonbirch — December 19, 2007 @ 3:58 am
Well, from what I see, as churches grow older, irregardless of the denomination, they would somehow also turn to have the top down hierachical thingy.
Few leaders like losing control, and that is what happens when your church grows in number.
Comment by zefi — December 19, 2007 @ 5:16 am
that control stuff will always hurt others, it doesn’t matter if it’s Ancient, Anglican, Mod, New Wave, Radical or Moderate to Liberal.
we only get into the control thing from our own bad experiences, i.e. being board at church, coping with trauma.
sadly you can’t escape by becoming the next fashionable style of church, though faith, trust and love does set you free.
Comment by su — December 19, 2007 @ 8:35 am
well said, zefi.
i agree su. this could happen anywhere.
Comment by jonbirch — December 19, 2007 @ 8:50 am
As a Pastor there have been a few people I would love to place on the rack…but I keep asking God for more love for such people – and there have been a few times when I have discerned that I have been on the rack and have tried loving the operator!
The whole issue of control gets me quite mad – I have had such allegations leveled against me and I have seen times when others have quite blatantly tried to control situations within congregations – my response each time is that I never want control and will never allow any one person to try and grasp control over decision making – because at the end of the day this is not my Church or your Church it’s God’s Church and I believe the best way forward for church government is to share the decision making among the people so that together we seek to discern the mind of Christ.
But then church politics are a funny thing because sometimes one person making all the decisions can at times do a good job and at other times a really bad job as can all the people making the decisions – after all we are all human and all fallible – God have mercy on us all whatever our church government and politics.
Comment by marcus — December 19, 2007 @ 8:53 am
If you find the perfect church, don’t go there ‘cos you’ll only spoil it, so people sometimes say. All churches are made up of fallible human beings who all come equipped with their own gifts and insecurities. People are ambitious, zealous, envious etc in the business world – if the church is a true microcosm, you will find all these factors at play here, too.
As Zefi says, leaders dislike losing control. The flip side of a blessing could be a curse. Maybe we don’t have gifts as such, just qualities and it is how we use those qualities that determines whether it is a gift or not. Is somebody a good leader or a control freak? My guess is that depends on the circumstances and the group dynamic.
I know a guy, who is essentially a sound geezer on an occasional social basis but has a vast ego. He is involved in overseas mission work. It is his church mission, but really it is his personal project (or his vocation?). In the past, he has been quite cavalier with other people’s safety and caused great anxiety to my friends when enlisting their help for his projects. He has placed his marriage under unneccessary strain by giving up his paid job to concentrate on his travels. But this self-styled Indiana Jones has helped to motivate people to achieve some marvellous things abroad. Would he have done it if ego hadn’t blinded him to potential risk? Probably not.
I find it helpful occasionally to step outside of my own vulnerabilities and try to perceive things from a different perspective. That said, sometimes it is hard to find saving graces, even then.
Sorry if this seems to stray from the point of the cartoon a bit. But I think that even if you don’t have a top-down hierarchy, there will always be dominant personalities and at times this may lead to abuses of power.
Comment by Carole — December 19, 2007 @ 8:59 am
I don’t think this is necessarily the pastor or the pastee (pasty? chicken please, or a steak bake).
As christians we have our circles of heresy. “I am the only true correct thinker. You are nearly the same in your thinking therefore you are in my accepted group of associates. These people over here are heretics and must be condemned and hunted down like dogs.”
This becomes most amusing when you visualise the concentric circles of herecy within the body of christ.
I may have to make my own diagram…
Comment by Robb — December 19, 2007 @ 10:46 am
My thoughts from your comments take me once again to Rob Bell’s ‘Velvet Elvis’.
It’s time for a more humble theology from some leadership.
That said, it’s also time for some church leaders to get a backbone and believe in something worth committing too! There’s nothing worse than a vicar/pastor that is too busy being swung by each convincing agruement to have a well thought out theology they think God is leading them too!
Comment by youthworkerpete — December 19, 2007 @ 10:55 am
Carole is right, to get a project off the ground and motivate people does require a lot of self confidence. I doubt if it’s possible to have this and not go over the top sometimes and become too controlling. It’s the way it is and we just have to watch out for each other and I always hope someone will tell me I’m an idiot when I’m being silly.
It’s pastor’s job to stretch people!
Comment by Chris F — December 19, 2007 @ 10:56 am
This issue is seriously moderated in places, like many baptist churches, where good congregational governance happens.
But yes, the kind of “my way or the highway” stuff that goes on – however subtly- is counter to true Christian leadership, or discipleship.
“Dont be like the gentiles,” said Jesus, “for they have leaders that lord it over them, it shouldn’t be the same with you. You should serve one another”
Comment by Jonathan — December 19, 2007 @ 11:22 am
Is it really a pastor’s job to stretch people?
It seems like people are confusing the word “discipling” with “disciplining.”
Is it the elders or pastors’ job to beat the congregation they serve into shape?
It breaks my heart when the congregation had to put their cart in front of their donkey because of how the church leaders push them, but I feel more sad when the leaders have to do that because of the expectations of the congregation.
Comment by zefi — December 19, 2007 @ 11:47 am
When I said “leaders have to do that because of the expectations of the congregation,” I meant when leaders have to put their cart in front of their donkeys.
Comment by zefi — December 19, 2007 @ 11:59 am
You know….If you do just one more cartoon, that awful one of the guy being shot in the eye will fall off the page, and I won’t have to see it every day. She says hopefully…
Comment by Laura — December 19, 2007 @ 12:13 pm
2 more rather.
Comment by Laura — December 19, 2007 @ 12:26 pm
Zefi, I mean “stretch” in a positive sense! (doesn’t fit with the cartoon but there) – to help people to see beyond where they’ve reached, to keep going, to stretch out (“strain on towards the goal” as Paul puts it in Philippians) towards the God who is always calling us onwards.
We will each need someone to push us on from behind, call us forward from ahead, and to walk beside us – and to tell us to stop and take a break – from time to time
Comment by Chris F — December 19, 2007 @ 12:40 pm
zefu said “Is it the elders or pastors’ job to beat the congregation they serve into shape?”
Both, ideally. The pastor is essentially a teaching elder.
Ephesians 4.11-15
And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather,speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ.
I take it that this role that pastors have doesn’t involve putting people on the rack (as per Jon’s cartoon). Instead, it is about speaking the truth in love.
Comment by One Salient Oversight — December 19, 2007 @ 12:42 pm
i think that there can be a real problem with a top down approach when churches start thinking about vision. The leadership, pastors and elders can all have a vision and then they try and impart that vision to everyone else. This can prove really hard to get everyone on board. If the whole community of the church (and even those outside it) come together with a vision then it will probably get there.
Comment by will — December 19, 2007 @ 12:50 pm
Will, I’m curious how it’s possible for a group of people (including outsiders) to come up with a common vision.
I’ve never heard of that happening and don’t understand how it would work.
Perhaps we used the word vision differently??
Comment by Laura — December 19, 2007 @ 1:05 pm
“good congregational governance” often equates to “tell us what we want to hear”…
“or you’re fired”
Comment by Robb — December 19, 2007 @ 1:39 pm
i think a corporate vision (agenda) will always crush someone. if we live to serve the corporate vision we become blind to need. unless that vision is love god and love your neighbour. have dreams and visions by all means, but never enslave people to them. that’s just wrong.
Comment by jonbirch — December 19, 2007 @ 1:40 pm
But re we there to “serve the corporate vision” or God’s vision?
Comment by Robb — December 19, 2007 @ 1:46 pm
laura (14)… sorry that cartoon has caused you so much distress… it will indeed be gone soon… just in time for the run up to christmas…. hooray!
i think church at its worst adopts the business model of corporate vision. how many businessmen burn out? answer… loads! we see the same in church. that may even be one of the reasons the emergent church got going…. but it is also subject to the same pitfalls. love, love, love, then love some more… that’s the only way i reckon.
Comment by jonbirch — December 19, 2007 @ 1:49 pm
Love – the vision we all so desperately need yet the one that we so easily lose sight of.
Comment by Carole — December 19, 2007 @ 1:51 pm
I just realise that ‘corporate vision’ could also be ‘corporate vision’. Let the burnout begin!
Comment by Robb — December 19, 2007 @ 2:35 pm
Laura: We may have differing versions of vision but let me try and explain where i am coming from:
At our church we want to find ways to serve the community. But ways that the community actually want. In the relationships we have built up in the community – people my wife and i call friends now – we have conversations. When there is a need we work together to fill that need. We have had church and “non church” people working together doing garden makeovers – helping people who are going through bankruptcy with their accounts not people from the church but others in the network that has been created – because of the fact that we are there – and through no selling of a vision, a corporate vision of community has evolved. Everyone who comes into contact with the growing group of people are shocked by this.
People our looking out for people. One or two from that have made their way into the church walls but most hold the same vision.
Comment by will — December 19, 2007 @ 3:36 pm
hi folks, am becoming amazed at the power of (jon’s) images to capture aspects of faith and experiences of church.
good to read bits of the discussion.
Comment by su — December 19, 2007 @ 5:37 pm
Will, that’s happening with us too, gradually.
Bless you,
Sas x
Comment by sarah — December 19, 2007 @ 11:20 pm
I really hope not too many non-Christian visit this site.
No offence, but although quite a few points made in these cartoons are accurate in a number of cases–they are neither representative of the church as a whole, nor fair.
Cynicism is one thing, but making Christianity seem absolutely awful is another.
We should be praying and acting to change any problems within the modern church, rather than ridiculing it out in the open and putting people off Christianity even more.
That said, I enjoy quite a lot of these strips. I guess it’s finding a balance between humour and ridicule.
Comment by Tusk — December 20, 2007 @ 7:46 am
“We should be praying and acting to change any problems within the modern church, rather than ridiculing it out in the open and putting people off Christianity even more.”
Sometimes the only way to address these problems properly is to put them out in the open. The church has too often swept things under the carpet and been too hush hush about things.
Unbelievers who might see these cartoons and have their preconceptions validated were probably never going to understand anyway. For those who are truly interested in Christ, exposure to the sinful and dark side of church life is essential since they’ll eventually realise it themselves via experience.
Comment by One Salient Oversight — December 20, 2007 @ 8:48 am
i agree oso.
hi tusk. thanks for the comment. i think that trying to be honest about who we are and what we can be like as individuals and institutions is healthy. the questions and coversations the cartoons raise are hopefully healthy. people looking in on church from another perspective may already have many criticisms of their own, many of which may be similar to the issues raised in the cartoons. hopefully when people from other perspectives see this site they at least see christians attempting to be honest and soul searching. we don’t always agree but we can debate rigorously and with respect for one another. that is my hope. ‘ridicule’ is a funny one… sometimes i feel like i’m ridiculing the ridiculous, if you know what i mean. but i don’t assume i have it right… these are simply some of my thoughts put down as cartoons. thanks for joining in.
Comment by jonbirch — December 20, 2007 @ 9:16 am
Unbelievers is an interesting term. It implies a conious choice to become an “unbeliever” rather than a passive lack of interest.
I don’t think presenting Christianity as “we’re all perfect now” is the way forward. We seem to have given the impression to “unbelievers” throughout the centuries that being a christian means being “sinless” rather than “forgiven”. In the UK this is the popular opinion of Jeo Blogs. Christians claim to be perfect.
This all falls apart when we do something wrong – “you’re not supposed to…”
Do’h. If we’re honest from the start and “publish the sinners friend” rather than the pharises justification (as done in many of these cartoons) then we may find that we get somewhere.
How many non-christians is “too many”??
Comment by Robb — December 20, 2007 @ 9:32 am
good stuff, robb.
also, i think i’m trying to express the fact that we are not all simply ‘fine’ with the way some things are in christendom. it seems that some christians do find this blog empathetiic (that was my hope)… and i also hope people of a different view might look at the church in a more favourable light by seeing critical cartoons and healthy debate. as you say robb, there are a lot of blogs about how great things are, maybe this blog helps restore a balance… i don’t know.
Comment by jonbirch — December 20, 2007 @ 12:20 pm
haha
Comment by nakedpastor — December 20, 2007 @ 1:55 pm
I think that the humour in these cartoons would make an awful lot of non-Christians feel more sympathetic towards Christians, in that they do not portray us blindly towing any party line but rather working through our problem areas of faith and church as free thinking individuals. Jon’s cartoons are provocative, yes, but that promotes brilliant discussion. It’s like therapy; the questioning helps to strenghthen belief in the important stuff. The charge of cynicism that is quite often made against this site saddens me a bit, because over the last year, this has developed into a real community, as real and supportive as anything I’ve experienced in the ‘real world’. Those who comment are being honest and at times making themselves quite vulnerable in expressing their deepest thoughts and feelings. Often somebody can mention something which causes you to rethink your own views but this is all done with warmth and in love. When you get down to the heart of the matter, this is one of the least cynical sites around. In my experience, most don’t even get close to the heart of the matter.
Comment by Carole — December 20, 2007 @ 9:06 pm
Carole, you’re right there,
And I want to thank EVERYONE for this site. It IS a community for me too. Thanks Jon. The guy I sit opposite at work is growing in respect of me because I’m saying things like I don’t have to defend my religion, it’s not an empire. My work backs up my words too.
With Blessings,
Sarah x
Comment by Sarah — December 20, 2007 @ 10:59 pm
thank you all… sarah is right. thanks carole for stating it as i feel it… you know i’m really not a cynical person, thank you for understanding.
to be fair, i’ve not been labelled too many times, and even the labels in a strange way encourage me to continue. i very much value the community which is developing here, the warmth is staggering and the conversation stimulating and real.
i often feel vulnerable putting up posts believe it or not, but i shall continue to do so… this is the most authentically ‘me’ thing i’m doing right now and has become a very valuable part of my life.
i am very grateful to all of you.
whoever goes to greenbelt next year, we should meet up and say hello.
Comment by jonbirch — December 21, 2007 @ 3:31 am
One Salient Oversight:
I’m glad that you categorize a pastor as an elder.
If so, I hope you wouldn’t miss out on 1 Peter chapter 5, especially verse 3.
Tusk:
Although there’s few, which one among us wanted to make fun of our own family? It’s like spitting at our own face.
But if people never stop to wonder about the fact that we’re not leaving this family even when it’s so messy, and the fact that we are free to be honest about our real condition, I’m speechless.
Too often we present ourselves as problem-free people, that many who join the family later on felt cheated by the superficial mask we put on.
And too often we fear to present ourselves as who we currently are, for fear of tainting the name of Christ.
Yes, freedom is to be exercised with responsibility, but why does it seems as if we often exercise that responsibility when we have not yet accept the freedom given to us?
Comment by zefi — December 21, 2007 @ 5:41 am
Quite Zefi.
I think the more love there is, the more able we are to say things that are helpful to ourselves and to others. It’s all a matter of context.
Cheers,
Sas x
Comment by Sarah — December 21, 2007 @ 8:42 am
Greenbelt 08? Defo! Count me in.
Comment by Carole — December 21, 2007 @ 8:56 am
excellent, carole.
any other takers?
nice point zefi. some leaders fear freedom because they can’t control it… while good leaders encourage, nurture and allow people to grow. sometimes i feel people become like stunted plants because the pot they’ve been given to grow in is too small.
Comment by jonbirch — December 21, 2007 @ 10:02 am
We were planing on taking the bike to Greenbelt next year…
Comment by Robb — December 21, 2007 @ 12:52 pm
Jon,
I’d love to A) meet you in person and don’t think I’ll make Greenbelt.
Sas
Comment by Sarah — December 21, 2007 @ 10:47 pm
doh! you’d love it, sas!
see you there robb.
Comment by jonbirch — December 22, 2007 @ 12:00 am
hey sas… did you have a B) ?
Comment by jonbirch — December 22, 2007 @ 12:02 am
Jon I know I’d love it I’ve been before, but…well, maybe.
I’d really like to meet though.
Sas x
Comment by Sarah — December 22, 2007 @ 6:05 pm
yeh… go on… you know y’wanna.
Comment by jonbirch — December 22, 2007 @ 7:19 pm
it’s whether or not I’ll need to be with Julian, I would like to come.
Sas x
Comment by Sarah — December 22, 2007 @ 10:17 pm