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ooh! I get to be the first to comment!
a few years back, when my aunt was dying of cancer, these people were the plague of her church and our entire extended family. She had spent an entire lifetime being the good girl and doing everything “right.” Good church girl, eldest sister playing mom to the dysfunctional family, etc. When these folks came along and told her she wasn’t being healed because she didn’t have enough faith . . . well, she set out to make sure that she and everyone around her had enough faith. And being ever disappointed with her “failure.” Her kids, husband, siblings, tried to tell her it wasn’t like that, but she set out to be “good enough” just once more. I think, if her pastor had mis-handled it, that her funeral may have split the church. But he just stood up at the beginning and said, “When Ellen got to heaven yesterday, she wasn’t disappointed . . . “
That’s a sad story, Sara, and it happens all too often.
I can’t think of one person in history who has not experienced illness. I can’t think of one who hasn’t/won’t die (even those with ‘anointed’ healing ministries). What abject failures we must all be in the faith department. I believe that God can, and occasionally does cure people against all odds but it’s not often. God preserve me from those who indiscriminately spout this kind of dangerous talk!
yup! To us, God is all about health & wealth. Jesus died for me so I can sit in a rolce royce, crash it, and get a new one. the world is a better place with me being rich while others stay poor.
I was once told that I didn’t speak in tongues because I didn’t have enough faith. I was given a set of 7 random verses plucked from the bible that if I “said them every day” would allow me to speak in tongues. After 1 year of following Jesus I could work out that this was rubbish. After another 10 years of following Jesus I would have completely different retorts for the nutters who were speaking!
i remember roy castles (for non uk friends, roy was a well known and well loved celeb who was also a christian) wife telling of how, after her husband premature death from cancer, she recieved loads of letters saying how god had judged him for his career and that he played in clubs when he was younger etc.
these people are sick in the head. where is god in their statements? where is the love in their words? what postive effect has there behaviour had? answer, none.
sara, your story is very upsetting, and quite common in some circles. these are horrendous lies. god bless ellen and may she be with her lord for ever healed, for ever whole!
i’ve heard of many who’ve had the ‘tongues’ experience robb. why is it that people need things over others, making themselves better or set apart. it’s all very disturbing.
It seems to be the fiercest advocates of “good biblical teaching” who seem to be intent on having the ‘least of gifts’. How ironic.
hmmmm… interesting point.
hola, the themes over the past few posts *could* be interpreted as an assault on those with large *successful ministries* (not that we can say what that looks like, unless we want to be judged back) and I wonder|hope|pray that the heart of those at helm of these organisations is full of God’s love .
so, faith then. something I continue to misunderstand – however, I know that God understands it perfectly.
faith is great – but it’s got to be in union with action. they move together, they make sense of each other.
I firmly believe that Jesus bore our sins, sickness and all that at the cross and they are finished – but does that mean that I live in a bubble of superhero-like oblivion or elevation? No. I just thank my Father that he has “put feet on a rock and given me a firm place to stand”. I’ll trust Him rather than what the circumstances are saying, anyday.
jon, please keep up the great work – even when I don’t agree with your point of view, it’s great to see people talking about the stuff that matters and not just grumbling in the corner!
peace
W
thanks, andy.
yep, i’m definitely having a pop at some with huge, successful ministries. some of them sicken me to the core, so i find it hard to say nothing.
i guess i’ll keep going at this until i run out of ideas… thanks for getting it.
peace back at ya!
“If I have not love I am nothing but a clashing gong.”
“Faith, hope, and Love…the greatest of these is love.”
The words “I can’t afford it” should not be in the vocabulary of a Christian. The silver haired pastor (surely old enough to know better?) on the God channel this very evening emphasised that if we took God at his word, we could fix our eye on the thing we want and say “I’ll be back”, go and speak the creative word (like God does in Genesis 1) and “believe you have received it” (good old Mark 11) – and it will be yours. And prosperity – when “you get your finances in line”.
“you shall not take the name of he Lord your God in vain” does not mean God gets all upset if someone uses hs name as a swear word – it means this kind of abuse of his Name to back up the agendas of the peddlars of this kind of “gospel”
Let’s be charitable and assume his motive is to evoke a positive view rather than despair in his audience – faith, as he would see it, his attempt to help and fix the problems he encounters. But is it delusion on a grand scale? Is it plain human power seeking? It’s quite staggeringly weird!
Go on popping Jon! – though it has to be said that God himself does not take “pops” at them. Just as well, I’d be first in line to be popped – though for very different reasons!!
Empty pops for the sake of it no.
But criticism like Jesus did, yes.
With a heart full of righteous anger and also aware that I am a sinner too.
Sas x
Chris F – I think we all would
yep… we’d all be ‘in for it’ if it weren’t for grace.
but this stuff is off the scale when it comes to deception. it is good that other christian groups in the states appear to be calling some of these organisations to account. not a moment too soon… i hope they have to give every penny back that they’ve taken (in the jubilles spirit, although i don’t suppose that particular biblical principle interests them much) and are made to do something useful with their lives… any suggestions?
I remember watching a clip from the God Channel where Creflo Dollar was preacing. He said that the people who died in Sept 11th would not have died if they had enough faith. Myself and another friend had to spend the rest of the evening explaining how that was wrong to a bunch of baby Christians.
I’m sort of like Jeff Lucas on this. Best not to watch the majority of what is on Christian TV as no-one likes to clean sticky cornflakes from their LCD screen.
I’ve seen strong Christian people healed through prayer and faith. I’ve seen strong Christian people die in spite of prayer and faith. I am yet to figure out why that is.
I’d like these people to point to the bit in the Bible which says being a Christian automatically means a pain-free existence. Bet it doesn’t exist (note, I don’t know my Bible as well as I ought to!).
That reminds me of an incident I had once, on my local High Street. There was this charismatic Christian group handing out leaflets, and I started talking to one. The guy implied that I couldn’t be a proper Christian if I didn’t speak in tongues (exact words, didn’t “trust God enough”). I walked away feeling very upset.
Oh, this has hit a hot button for me. Years ago our pastor and one of our close friends were dying of cancer. People actually had the nerve to say that they didn’t have enough faith, that if they did they would be healed. Someone on the prayer team told the husband of our friend that he wasn’t praying enough and it was because of that his wife was sick. I can’t understand this kind of thinking.
it makes me sad to actually hear these stories. You hear that these things are said but…
Anyway – my dad who it would appear have no faith – a non christian his whole life – with no interest whatsoever died of cancer – 2 weeks before he died he became a christian. For those last 2 weeks he was unconscious and my bet is he had more peace than faith and that is so encouraging.
F@#k faith levels if i have the peace that my dad had in the grim and painful face of death then i’ll be a happy man.
(Sorry for the rant but it’s all i could so to stop crying)
Just a few words from songs to share…
“Your higher ways teach me to trust You
Your higher ways are not like mine
Your higher ways are the ways of the Father
Hiding His children in His love”
- Steven Curtis Chapman
“But if I never see a miracle,
if I never see the dead raised up,
if I never see the kingdom come,
I won’t stop believing.”
- Morgan Cryar
Will, I feel for you.
Run away from those who want to hurt us.
But stay and stand in who you know you are in God.
Accepted and Loved.
Sas x
i remember it well, will. i’ll never forget.
faith can bring torment and heartache, faith can bring healing , faith can bring life and it can also bring death. these people of so-called faith mock the martyrs, they stand against truth, and they make money by selling useless potions in the temple… and we know that kind of thing makes jesus angry!
I’d like to see a panel where the old guy really just whacks the other guy a good one up side the head with his cane.
Is that wrong?
understandable.
One of the most godly men I ever knew was stricken with I don’t remember what strange illness or combination of illnesses. His son had been one of my teachers, his daughter a classmate of mine. Through his strong faith, he was allowed to die. I do not understand it, but I do know that those who blame and point the finger do NOT speak for God (just look at Job’s friends–they thought they were speaking for God, too).
A series on Job might be appropriate . . . .
funny, you know. i too am reminded of job reading some of the comments. if i can think of a way of bringing a bit of job to asbo, i will. some of the stuff people have to listen to from ‘supposedly’ people of the same faith, makes me sick to the core.
Who needs Satan? Reading these comments, Christians actually do most of his work for him. If people spent as much time nurturing their own inner life, transforming that into good works, as they do with their spiteful meddling in other people’s lives, all of our humanity-induced problems would be solved! I think a lot of the crap we deal out to others is a symptom of our own jealousy and insecurity. But then my evidence is drawn from rather limited research, ie my study of me!
you’re right carole. absolutely right.
What, you think I’m jealous and insecure, too?!!!
haha!… not that bit! the ‘spiteful meddling’ bit!
the study of ourselves is paramount… we’re bad enough at diagnosing our own problems and often worse at sorting them out. when i look at myself, i see me falling short of what i’d like to be by an absolute mile. that’s why i think it’s important to suffer fools, because i am one. but i won’t suffer bullies and lie peddlars without mouthing off!
Jon, you are prophetic as ever!
Tonight I have to lead a prayer meeting, requested by some of my congregation for someone who faces a really nasty diagnosis. Already I am working out how to remind people that ‘wholeness is not necessarily the same as earthly cure’ so that they pray intelligently and don’t feel guilty (or inflict guilt or bitterness on others) if God doesn’t give them the answer they think they want.
One of the most powerful prayer requests I ever received was from a woman with terminal cancer, that she might face her imminent death with courage and dignity. She did. Wow, what a witness!
that’s how my mum faced her death. she had a massive impact on those she came in contact with in the hospital. nurses and other staff weeping and two members of staff who couldn’t leave the room after she died. man… i am so proud of her, your thoughts bring it all back starkly… and you know, although i feel sad at my great loss… it’s okay.
‘wow. what a witness’ indeed. when my time comes i pray for the spirit she had… i’ve not witnessed it in me thus far, but i can hope.
all the very best for tonight. you are wise and kind.
peace. x
What makes me sad is just how damaging these words can be, and that they appear to be said quite often. My Mum was very ill throughout my childhood with severe bi-polar disorder. She was prayed for so often, rebuked of a huge number of so called “demons” and continually told to have more faith. I grew up from a very young age praying daily, often several times a day, believing desperately that she would be made better. She is still alive today, and still has bi-polar. She never was healed, but she has an amazing faith. Bi-polar will always be part of her life, but you know what I have learnt to see that it is what makes her that unique person she is!. But it has taken me a long to not blame myself for “not having enough faith” as a child.
What makes me sad is just how damaging these words can be, and that they appear to be said quite often. My Mum was very ill throughout my childhood with severe bi-polar disorder. She was prayed for so often, rebuked of a huge number of so called “demons” and continually told to have more faith. I grew up from a very young age praying daily, often several times a day, believing desperately that she would be made better. She is still alive today, and still has bi-polar. She never was healed, but she has an amazing faith. Bi-polar will always be part of her life, but you know what I have learnt to see that it is what makes her that unique person she is!. But it has taken me a long to not blame myself for “not having enough faith” as a child.
Soniamain – Thank God you have been able to resolve the issues that other people landed you with. We can do so much good with words but we sure can make a mess with them, too. There is clearly a fine line between a blessing and a word curse for some people. But your story is very encouraging.
sonia, i know you well. no one as achild could have cared more for their mother. what was loaded onto you by people older than you but less wise was indeed a curse. i don’t know how you’ve dealt with some of the stuff you’ve had to and it must be very hard to forgive those who have done so much harm… but i am always witnessing your kindness, your grace, your strength and your vulnerable honesty. you are a true, true friend and a hero of mine.
that made me cry, very kind Jon
That made me cry, too, Sonia!
aw, me too
we can’t have all this emotion on a cheeky cartoon blog! get a grip ladies, please!
Not entirely untrue.
i was only joking. emotion is always welcome.
One day it’ll all be sorted out-but until then…
Night night everybody xx
Sas x
…and the last’ll be first.
Better be.
youbetya!
Cheers.
Sas
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Thanks for that cartoon. Can’t you post it to culprits everywhere, like one of those messages with all the letters cut out of newspapers?
Re the subject of healing, some very obvious points for those tumshies (Scottish for turnip) who peddle this lack of faith poison:
1. Quite clearly the statistics on death are very compelling. One out of one dies.
2. So (duh!) how can it always be God’s will to heal? Why don’t any of THEM manage to escape dying of something in the end? CLearly it is NOT always God’s will to heal.
3. Death is horrible (my heart goes out to some of the commenters above whose loss has been made even harder).
4.Human beings like to deny the reality of death. (Have you noticed how people say, “If anything happens to me…”, like there’s a chance it might not?! Therefore I reckon all this business of God definitely wants to heal is borne out of the natural desire to deny that death is inevitable.
5. We don’t believe (at all? enough?) in heaven.
Re the subject of wealth: I SO HATE THOSE GOD CHANNEL MONEY GRUBBING SO AND SOs. My natural delightfulness and placid joyful graiousness (ha ha) evaporates at the mere thought of them…
Ax
annedroid… a truly wonderful and honest post. i couldn’t agree more. in a strange way i feel those guys are more my enemy than anything from without. their whole ethos pushes my patience to the limit. they suck the very life from people like vampires… some people wholly abandon themselves and end up terribly exploited. it is truly heart breaking. it is truly horrible struggling with revulsion for people who claim to share ones faith. and revulsion is what i feel.
i’m gonna give you a smiley anyway, because you so understand what i’m trying to say. thanks.
God loves us.
Suffering is good for us.
We learn. We grow. We get stronger. We trust more. We love more. We accept love more. We appreciate the peaceful times more deeply.
Why would God not let us suffer?
Makes no sense.
what a good comment allatsea+. a completely different and more healthy way of looking at it. very helpful.