i’d like to apologise upfront… this isn’t a cartoon. i started writing a speech bubble and couldn’t stop writing and in the end there was no room left for a picture. sorry.
January 8, 2008
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[...] ASBO on Why God doesn’t go to church. [...]
Pingback by devilishduck | Why God doesn’t go to church — January 8, 2008 @ 3:04 am
Thank you, you’re so right. I left church and found God. Too bad a lot of people aren’t interested in finding God at church.
Comment by Joshua K. — January 8, 2008 @ 3:06 am
It seems like many people like to turn God into Someone they think He is, instead of knowing who He really is.
Don’t get me wrong, because if God is infinite, we can’t know all sides of God. Different people enjoy the privilege of knowing different sides of God.
It’s like a friend who decided for you that you like fish, when you don’t.
Comment by zefi — January 8, 2008 @ 5:48 am
LOOOOOVE it!
Comment by Laura — January 8, 2008 @ 6:24 am
Well done mate.
Sas x
Comment by sarah — January 8, 2008 @ 7:30 am
inspired
Comment by soniamain — January 8, 2008 @ 7:55 am
i was doing just about ok until we got to Enid. This is fantastic and a scary challenge. Thanks Jon-boy.
Comment by Will Taylor — January 8, 2008 @ 8:38 am
Really challenging; I’ve been struggling with going to church for nearly six months now. This gives me something else to add to my thinking.
Thanks Jon!
Comment by Nathan — January 8, 2008 @ 8:49 am
“sorry”?!?!?!
surely one of your best ever.
Comment by Sam Norton — January 8, 2008 @ 1:08 pm
Excellent – no need to apologise Jon!
Comment by Malcolm — January 8, 2008 @ 2:22 pm
thanks guys and gals.
you know in some ways i feel very uncomfortable putting words in gods mouth. i am aware, as zefi rightly points out, that we easily make god in our own image… i surely am no exception. however, as i got writing i became quite moved. i do not really believe god doesn’t go to church necessarily, but am very keen to challenge all our assumptions where possible and raise up what i think are perhaps some of the important issues.
again, thanks for getting it.
Comment by jonbirch — January 8, 2008 @ 3:54 pm
What if we divorce ourselves from the idea that church is a place and an event? What if it was more like your cartoons on the people worshipping at work, at play, at rest, etc. WARNING: UPCOMING RANT. It’s easy to point out the failure of the current manifestation of the church, but look at the NT–Jesus personally addressed 7 churches in Rev 2-3 and their various strengths, flaws, and failures. The church has been flawed since Acts 6. Yet we act like it’s modern phenomena that churches are less than ideal. It’s no more, no less imperfect than the beginning. Jesus chose an ugly bride. She’s not good enough for Him, or us. But He’s going to present her to Himself without blemish and spot, and love her anyway. I wonder what He sees in her that we don’t?
Comment by bishopdave — January 8, 2008 @ 4:30 pm
Jon, I know what you mean about feeling uncomfortable putting words into God’s mouth. I know I don’t like doing it myself – but I sometimes do. When we preach that is effectively what we are doing.
It was always acceptable for a biblical writer to say “Moses says…” as if invoking ancient scripture. What they really mean is “If Moses were here he would say…”. The key is knowing enough about who you are speaking on behalf of. That’s the difficult bit
Comment by Robb — January 8, 2008 @ 5:06 pm
thanks robb… that truly is the difficult bit.
as you are probarbly aware by now, i am not a man who deals in certainties too easily. i don’t claim the truth, i just engage in the struggle. thanks for the encouragement. 
hey bishopdave… thought provoking stuff. i would suggest that the church was flawed even earlier than that. it’s the institutions that i struggle with, as it seems jesus did. you are right to see the need to view church in a broader way than place and event. christ loves his beautiful, flawed people, they are the bride. thanks for the input.
Comment by jonbirch — January 8, 2008 @ 5:26 pm
This made me cry it is so true.
Comment by Ann — January 8, 2008 @ 7:55 pm
I see what you’re saying, Jon, and I like a lot of it. But “where two or more are gathered in My name, there am I in the midst of them.” So… I think God goes to church, too.
But I agree that God is in the other things as well.
Comment by Lori — January 8, 2008 @ 8:05 pm
Hey, I want my money back! Where’s the picture?!?
Thanks for this and for pushing the boundaries on those little boxes.
Comment by Lingamish — January 8, 2008 @ 8:23 pm
hi lori. i refer you to 11 which says what i really think. thanks for getting it though.
hi ann. don’t cry.
cheers lingamish… there’ll be a picture later.
Comment by jonbirch — January 8, 2008 @ 9:02 pm
The orthodox have a lovely understanding of the Church whereby she is at once made up of sinners, and the Spotless Bride of Christ.
We’re both at the same time. Weird huh?!
But cool!
Sas
Comment by sarah — January 8, 2008 @ 9:53 pm
[...] great non-cartoon from The Ongoing Adventures of ASBO Jesus. To be honest, I get pretty bored. I love people. I love [...]
Pingback by Gentle Wisdom » Why God doesn’t go to church — January 8, 2008 @ 10:03 pm
In case you like, I love this image of us (bride) worshipping Jesus
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.forerunnerart.com/f/2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.forerunnerart.com/details.html%3Fp%3D2&h=552&w=375&sz=48&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=B_okLSkLG6gQdM:&tbnh=133&tbnw=90&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbride%2Bof%2Bchrist%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dcom.ubuntu:en-US:official%26sa%3DG
and there’s a few others in the series too.
Cheers,
thanks everyone for your support.
Sas x
Comment by sarah — January 8, 2008 @ 10:12 pm
yep, cool.
Comment by jonbirch — January 8, 2008 @ 10:14 pm
Looking at your list, I think people have a problem with things that are charicteristically stiff-upper-lip British than are necessarially problems with the church.
(PS – I appologise for my sspelling. Time to get back to Dr Kawashima)
Comment by youthworkerpete — January 8, 2008 @ 10:45 pm
Ohmygosh don’t I just Pete.
But you have to work with, or I should say, whom you’re with.
Set the counter-cultural example. Christ came to redeem all cultures, including the Stiff British Upper Lip one.
Sas x
Comment by sarah — January 8, 2008 @ 11:25 pm
This is a good one. God came to our church Sunday, and got to go sledding with the kids.;-)
Comment by thevikingfru — January 8, 2008 @ 11:39 pm
hooray!
Comment by jonbirch — January 8, 2008 @ 11:45 pm
Great – thought provoking! Just thought I’d mention that I don’t go to church to find God – He’s here with me all the time. I go to Church to worship Him, in the company of others seeking to do the same. I also go to Church because it’s a two-way process – in addition to my ‘receiving’ there are things that I have to ‘give’. However, your ‘toon’ does prompt us to look at the way that we ‘do’ church – to explore ways of interacting with God – and others – and to embrace and use all the wonderful resources that God has gifted to us. To be unafraiod to ‘do something new’. Sorry – was that a rant?!
Comment by SheenaC — January 9, 2008 @ 12:32 am
yes it was… and a very good rant too!
Comment by jonbirch — January 9, 2008 @ 12:41 am
There is some truth in the coal burning brightly analogy. However, I am stretched much more online (here and places like here) than I ever am in church. ‘Church’ is there for everyone to engage with God and be stretched – it is my fault that I have spent too long in theological college to gain much from a sermon that will sustain many for the coming week.
A couple of weeks ago I went to my mothers church and said in the car “I really wanted to ask your priest if he is calling me to action or inaction”. Her response was “I don’t think you are supposed to think about it that much”. It is the first time in months that I have felt challenged in church and she managed to pour cold water on it there and then whilst making me feel like 5 years of my life have been wasted.
I guess it is my problem that mother makes me feel devalued. I should have become an engineer like my brother. Thats propper stuff.
Comment by Robb — January 9, 2008 @ 1:42 am
you do proper stuff robb. your input here for one thing is very encouraging to me. i remember a vicars wife saying to me once, after i was talking to her about the rise of neo-naziism in germany at the time… “live and let live, that’s what i say.” well, i felt stupid… but she was wrong! i thought of loads of things to say back to her, but she was just responding how most do if they’re honest. it still annoys me just thinking about it… i really should get over it!
keep up the good work mate.
Comment by jonbirch — January 9, 2008 @ 2:40 am
I live in the UK and this sums up what I see in way, way too many churches – so it’s not just a stiff upper lip British syndrome but a gloabal maladaise. This made me come close to tears when I realize how many Enids I walk by every day.
Comment by becky — January 9, 2008 @ 6:31 am
I mean I live in the US – Freudian slip.
Comment by becky — January 9, 2008 @ 6:32 am
thanks becky. wherever you live.
Comment by jonbirch — January 9, 2008 @ 8:40 am
Hi folks!
Robb, I’m sorry you feel devalued by your mum. I can empathise with that to a certain extent. I don’t think my Steelfixer dad and shop worker mum could get to grips with all the ’stuff and nonsense’ in my head. They weren’t daft by any means but they had a different set of priorities and I just don’t think they knew what to do with me. This probably explains why I’ve faffed about for years without actually doing anything of substance (unlike yourself). They could have related to me more if I’d just had a few kids and worked evenings in a factory like my cousin. Try not to take it too much to heart – I’m sure she’s dead proud of you really, she probably just doesn’t know how to say it (probably bores your engineer brother senseless with it!). That’s where your good lady comes in. In the meantime we luv ya!
Well, God and church. There is the analogy of the petrol station church, where people just go to fill up on Sunday and that’s it. Sadly I think many just go out of duty/habit and don’t actually let anything sink in anyway. Certainly this is true of a fair proportion in my congregation (or seems to be). I can’t squash God into an hour on Sunday. I’m big on community. For the past 3 years, I’ve been putting on a small art festival in our church during the summer. We have a wealth of talent in our parish but only the few show it off. I wanted it to be a celebration of the wonderful gifts people have. I sometimes have to bully and cajole people into entering stuff (in the nicest possible way, of course). I’m always amazed at the talent and sheer diversity of exhibits. To be honest, it’s not the Tate, ie people don’t knock you over in the rush. Getting volunteers to come in to give you a break is like pulling teeth and so it is a gruelling week for me. But I have been hugely blessed by the ongoing effects of the event. One afternoon last year we had about 6 artists in church involved in different types of artistic activity. They talked to each other, compared notes, drank coffe etc. I had nice relaxing music on and the church had a lovely peaceful atmosphere. The buzz was fantastic. I’m convinced God was with us. The opportunities for really deep, meaningful conversations were plentiful. The resulting relationships I’ve built with individuals have been good and lasting. We got people from the wider community over the threshold out of curiosity and that was lovely – the art removed the fear factor.
You know, Christians can spend so long ‘converting’ non-churchgoers, they forget to tend to the needs of churchgoers. They put such a huge effort into encouraging the ‘youth’ they forget that there is a huge hunger in the 35+ group. I have often felt discouraged from certain church activities because they have a named target audience of 15-30. Recently I’ve been having a terrible job trying to get up for church and have missed a lot. So I think I know where ‘God’ is coming from here.
Comment by Carole — January 9, 2008 @ 9:26 am
Cheers guys, what a great thing to wake up to. I’m off to change the world!!
Carole, I agree. Too many of us concern ourselves purely with the ‘point of conversion’. It is easy to trot out the tree step plan with your little diagram and say the prayer. Someone blogged before christmas (sorry, I can’t find it again) about how they had performed one of these “christian abortions” at a big tent mission. Someone was ready to start the journey of discipleship but instead he provided ‘the prayer’ and nothing else.
Ken Collins makes a really valid point about what it means to ‘become a christian’:
“Christianity is a personal relationship with Christ, and I don’t know of any other situation in which there are steps to creating a personal relationship” – http://www.kencollins.com/disc-49.htm
Comment by Robb — January 9, 2008 @ 10:45 am
so good to dip into asboJ and feel the love and empathy between you all, and how much you think about the serious quest – ‘what is church?’.
one thing I feel, is that God wants us individually, to be continually growing and developing, as this is something inherent in the design of us humans. However, sometimes this process stalls. Maybe something big comes are way, and we feel overwhelmed for a time, though mostly I feel, we are trying to thrive in an alien environment – (try hoping for a crop of tomato’s without any sun) For us the optimum environment is unconditional and responsive. I find it frustrating in church, that we are able to give under threes this genuine warmth and acceptance, we love to see them blossoming, – but adults are given a less nutritious diet, why?
Comment by su — January 9, 2008 @ 10:49 am
Sorry Carole, I forgot to say:
I remember going to Spring Harvest a couple of years ago to find that I was no-longer allowed in the hip and happening services (18-25) and was consigned to the big top. I’m dreading the next decade where they consign me to the organ recital bracket. Heck, I didn’t get home from the rehearsal studio until after midnight last night from playing in my band. Then I went to ASDA for the weekly shop. I’m still in the bed at 4AM and still up for work bracket!!
Comment by Robb — January 9, 2008 @ 10:49 am
Oh, Robb, isn’t it horrible to be categorised? In the words of Dylan Thomas,
“Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.”
Not that, as a sub 30-year old, you need to worry about that too much yet, but it is good to keep the spirit in mind. Soon enough the purveyors of market research will have moved you onto the next box on their condemnatory little forms. I think they should add a little section for those who want to protest that they are as happy to be considered worthy of being targeted with ‘youthful’ gadgets as with Stannah stairlifts and walk in baths! Lots of challenges in that Ken Collins piece.
Su, in answer to why adults are not fed as well as the tots, maybe its that the little ones don’t challenge so much and are easier to contain. Adults may bring with them years of issues and threaten our stability in ways that the tots seldom do. And it is hard work for the few people who are prepared to take up the baton. How many people ever grow beyond spiritual childhood? The developmental process, as you rightly say, stalls. Richard Rohr is good to listen to on the spirituality of the two halves of life.
Comment by Carole — January 9, 2008 @ 11:28 am
We have to make the changes don’t we people. We have to shine like lights and well just keep going in our own lives. We can only do this if we know at least one other person out there doing the same.
Like Robb I really appreciate this community, for me it’s just as much part of my life as everything else – all part of the church. x
Comment by sarah — January 9, 2008 @ 12:21 pm
Another thing, Su, there are few things more beautiful than seeing a mature adult, set in their spiritual ways, suddenly with their faith not only revived but growing, living their lives in ways they never thought possible. Not only is it a privilege to witness, it is also deeply contagious!
Comment by Carole — January 9, 2008 @ 12:33 pm
as a struggling Anglican this spoke a lot to me!
Comment by amywatson — January 9, 2008 @ 2:46 pm
Great stuff!
I posted my thoughts on my blog but I will share a little here as well. Overall I love it. I dont agree with everything but I love the overall message you are trying to get accross and I agree fully. When will we actually start being the church and stop putting on an event we call church?
Comment by Mykel Pickens — January 9, 2008 @ 3:50 pm
thanks guys’n'gals! thought provoking conversation.
Comment by jonbirch — January 9, 2008 @ 6:53 pm
hiya again, I know some wonderful inspiring and florishing adults, I do still feel though that we politly tolerate some serious waffle going by the name of a preach, how about just doing something different – we could turn up with current news situations and pray awhile, that would be engaging and doing something. I just don’t think preachers recognise they’re bruising the soles of the faithful with all that condemnation and padding
Comment by su — January 9, 2008 @ 8:05 pm
I’m uncomfortable with this and writing a comment to help me work out why.
)
I think it’s that the New Testament is full of “one anothers” that makes me think that “church” is worth persisting with, although not in its present form perhaps. We need each other, we need to get together and we need to be accountable.
It may be that I’m a church leader so I have a vested interest, but I hope not. Not all churches are “bad” even if some are less than perfect.
But keep provoking us, Jon
PS: In case you immediately pigeon-holed me when I confessed to being a church leader, check this link to the local press…
http://tinyurl.com/3csynx
Comment by Derek — January 9, 2008 @ 8:14 pm
Ooooo, a local. Church leadership isn’t necessarily a bad thing – it is when there is no direction that the problems seem to occur in my experience.
Welcome Derek!
Comment by Robb — January 9, 2008 @ 8:50 pm
hi derek… i hope i would not pigeon hole you.
i think we are the church… and i think if the church wants to organise stuff then it needs leaders. i have a great deal of respect, sympathy and sometimes even empathy for people in the ministerial, pastoral, leader role. my brother is a minister and the challenges seem unending. i agree with all your points also derek… i too am uncomfortable with my cartoon… i did it to stir things up.
on a slighly different tack… i’m not sure i like the word ‘accountable’ anymore… a little like i whince at the word ‘discipling’. it’s not that i disagree with them, it’s just that i disagree with the meaning they’ve taken on. accountability should be a two way thing and i’ve seen it and discipling used to control or try to manipulate people into ones own version of what a christian should be. i think if we focussed on meaningful relationships we would need less strong language to describe the process. i think established church should enable the forging of strong and good relationships… if it doesn’t, what’s the point?
Comment by jonbirch — January 9, 2008 @ 8:58 pm
Absolutely Jon. I think where abuses have occurred it makes certain words and what they conjure up tremendously hurtful.
I think I’m very fortunate to be part of a strong community which recognises the need for maturity but all the time wants to seek ways to play in the happiness of the heart of God.
Thanks Jon,
Sas x
Comment by sarah — January 9, 2008 @ 9:11 pm
So, Derek, you’d be one of those trendy vicars, then? Only teasing – your pub service sounds great! Shame you’re not in my neck of the woods – that’s my kind of church!
Comment by Carole — January 9, 2008 @ 9:16 pm
Re preaching as is I think it’s a direct descendant of the Greek oration tradition is it not?
I’d much rather it felt like we were just getting together in someone’s house and someone read a letter from a friend and we discussed it/prayed/went outside and enjoyed the sunshine, had a bite to eat.
I can’t cope with straight talks at all even our lovely ones done by our lovely guys (n gals!) at FOTK.
I know we’ve said before about learning styles but I really believe the preach as is goes way way back, suits some people, totally unhelpful to others.
Having said all that I get instruction from being with our children (sunday school goes on during the sermon) and know that that’s totally where I’m meant to be.
I still wish, though, that we could just meet up and just, well meet up – not with any specific program for that meeting, but just meet, using the time to get to know one another more and more, as the Spirit blows we can listen to him and pray for her or do those dishes or cry about this or fix someone’s gate etc etc.
However I’m where I’m meant to be and I do all I can to get to know my bros and sistas on an intimate level as much as I can, given that we don’t live together and I get tired very easily.
But this is the life – not some future far off- THIS is it, lovely and sad, right here and right now.
Let’s embrace it and love it and love our brothers and sisters and love thos around us in the world, and try and make it a better place.
Cheers
Sas x
Comment by sarah — January 9, 2008 @ 9:20 pm
Welcome as well Derek. Just read your link. Cheers!
Sarah x
Comment by sarah — January 9, 2008 @ 9:24 pm
i like what you say sas. think of all those kids who are made to stay at school to do exams that are meaningless to them, when they could be learning a trade and making their way in life. why would they feel in anyway at home in the church environment?
Comment by jonbirch — January 9, 2008 @ 9:36 pm
I think you’re right Jon.
I will say, though, as another post script, that love doesn’t alf cover a multitude of not brilliantness.
Cos of the amount of love there is in our bit of the church, I’m willing to do anything.
PS Gave my first ASBO certificate away on Sunday!
To a lovely lad called Daniel.
He is so worth it.
Sas x
Comment by sarah — January 9, 2008 @ 10:03 pm
ps Steve in our church has started taking the youth group out for coffee etc once a month Sunday mornings instead of staying in the church hall – I think they really enjoy it and like being treated like young adults and getting to do their own thing – brilliant idea.
Sas x
Comment by sarah — January 9, 2008 @ 10:04 pm
that’s really good!
chruch puts people off God, they see the dorky mean out of date church and don’t realsie God is…well, God. and they think Jesus is some sad dude that came to condem us to Hell. and it’s churches fault. this is why i make the point of explaining there’s a differance whenever i mention either. howvere this tends to be on my lj where i ramble and people probably don’t read it in much detail anyways
Comment by Émie (ay-me) — January 9, 2008 @ 10:09 pm
hey, ‘WELL DONE!’ on the asbo certificate, sas!
hi emie… i’ve always, ever since i was young, hated the idea i might be associated with dull old church. it really made faith as a youngster difficult. sure, i felt loved by people there… but i was soooo bored, unless i was making trouble to amuse myself… i was far too embarassed to invite anyone. i feel sad saying it, because there were so many people i loved there and who loved me. i feel a bit of a traitor admitting it… but that was how i felt. i was so bored and still am whenever i’m in church… i’m aching for it to end… and i’m a christian!
Comment by jonbirch — January 9, 2008 @ 10:19 pm
We do need to be able to, be free to say, please let’s format our times together differently. There’s got to be that level of freedom there – a hallmark of love I think.
We do find it happens with our guys, in a steady not hurried way.
Sas x
Comment by sarah — January 9, 2008 @ 11:18 pm
I don’t see why everyone thinks this is such a great post. It’s stupid really. What makes you think you have the superior “insight” on what God thinks of “church?” I get it…you don’t like church…blah, blah, blah…cry me a river. Nine Inch Nails? What…did you think you are some sort of rebel suggesting a band that you think will “blow people’s minds”…Oh my God, I can’t believe he posted that! Get a life dude and stop bitching about the church. Big F’ing deal.
Comment by Steve — January 10, 2008 @ 8:27 am
I don’t think anyone here has a superior ‘insight’ on God or feels that they do. I read this as a discussion starter- of course God is in the church, its his body……..doesn’t stop us having a love/hate relationship with it though. The church has done/does/will do great things, but of course, being filled with people like us its made/is making/will make a big mess.
Reading 2 Corinthians 11 in one way, seems to me that Paul, in listing his many trials, kind of ends the list by saying ‘and if you think being beaten up is a big deal—– looking after a church- that can be worse!’ My tongue is slightly in its cheek there
.
As a minister, some of the most amazing times have been seeing people meet God there. As a minister, some of the most depressing times have been seeing God shut out (guilty m’lud!). ‘I can’t live, with or without you’.
Jon- keep on dreaming, ranting, making us laugh and provoking us. Next to cricinfo.com, you are the site I log into most!
God bless/pob bendith
Comment by Graham — January 10, 2008 @ 10:30 am
thank you graham. i was wondering how to respond, or whether i should… it’s far too easy to come up with a ‘clever’ (read ‘childish’) retort, but as i’ve stated before, i don’t want this site to become about point scoring. responding to stuff with a personal edge can be tricky… you’ve said it beautifully and it is much appreciated.
Comment by jonbirch — January 10, 2008 @ 11:25 am
thank you graham. i was wondering how to respond, or whether i should… it’s far too easy to come up with a ‘clever’ (read ‘childish’) retort, but as i’ve stated before, i don’t want this site to become about point scoring. responding to stuff with a personal edge can be tricky… you’ve said it beautifully and it is much appreciated.
Comment by jonbirch — January 10, 2008 @ 11:26 am
This is definitely inspiring – as is the ‘conversation’ which has been shared by people.
I may very well be using this at our Sunday Café Plus session here in Frome on Sunday evening (Sunday Café is a youth even for 15 – 25s that happens each Sunday evening – it turned into Church somehow – very exciting – anyhow, once a month we add a ‘Plus’ to the name and it’s opened up for anyone to come along to. (Anyone in the area, welcome this Sunday!!)
Seeing things like ASBO Jesus helps us guys who sort the program out that we’re doing stuff that’s relevant, not just for the young people, but also for us adults!!
Comment by Mark Burgess — January 10, 2008 @ 12:47 pm
Man, this God guy sounds like He’s a bit of a humanist in His spare time!
Comment by JF — January 10, 2008 @ 4:04 pm
hey jf… it wasn’t god who said it, it was me.
i guess i believe god’d take people over dogma anytime.
mark… hope the sunday cafe goes well.
Comment by jonbirch — January 10, 2008 @ 4:12 pm
That’s so true. God is everywhere, in everything creative. We’ve just got to open our eyes and see.
Comment by Ros — January 10, 2008 @ 5:20 pm
Comment by jonbirch — January 10, 2008 @ 5:22 pm
I nearly commented on NIN earlier on in the week but didn’t bother. I didn’t think that it would blow enough minds to need a comment. I also thought I may be one of the few who know anything by NIN. Better go and mosh now…
Comment by Robb — January 11, 2008 @ 12:15 am
haha! happy moshing!
Comment by jonbirch — January 11, 2008 @ 1:15 am
Seriously…NIN.
Yes, I don’t think God would have a problem at all with sitting down with one of his kids and rocking out to the lyrical genius of “I want to F— you like an animal! I want to feel you on the inside.” Stop trying to shape God into who you want him to be, at the same time using your definition and thoughts of God to justify the thoughts and actions that you feel guilty about.
Comment by Steve — January 11, 2008 @ 2:50 am
god and tom didn’t listen to that track… it wasn’t one of toms favourites. they listened to ‘terrible lie’,
what ‘thoughts and actions’ are those steve? god and i don’t listen to nine-inch-nails when we’re together… we prefer chilled out dub vibes and classical music, particularly sweet string sections playing haunting music from the romanic period.
god was enjoying being with tom and thought he’d postpone condemnation until tom had had a chance to work it out for himself. obviously if his mum had heard this particular cd she would have put it on the bonfire… but fortunately she was at church. tom had refused to go you see… he hated church. but he didn’t hate god… so god thought he’d get along side him, where he was at… all the while, in his wisdom, showing the kind of patience only the god of the universe could muster and all the while, as i said, postponing condemnation.
you’ve made some assumptions about me steve. you’ve assumed i feel guilty. well you’re right… i do. you’ve assumed that i shape god in an image pleasing to me. right again… i do (i’m not proud of it and it is a big part of my lifes work to rid myself of the images of god that i hold which are wrong).
btw. i’ve never heard the nine-inch-nails… what are they like? i presume they’re quite noisy.
Comment by jonbirch — January 11, 2008 @ 3:56 am
Bummer…
Comment by Laura — January 11, 2008 @ 6:10 am
Yes they are noisy. I think we’re in danger of falling foul of http://www.av1611.org/ et al.
This is in danger of becoming totally off topic but here goes nothing…
When you hear David Lee Roth singing “Running with the devil” what do you hear? [as words are being placed into the mouths of others and huge assumptions made about the thoughts of others I won't do that, I will offer mere speculation] ‘Evil David Lee Roth is corrupting our young people’. I hear him lamenting how alone he feels and how life isn’t what he hoped for. I hear a man crying out for more. I hear a man who is looking for someone who will offer him the love and acceptance he craves and who will share his inner being.
When you hear Bon Scott singing “Hell ain’t a bad place to be” I assume you hear ‘evil Bon Scott corrupting our young people’. I hear a man who has been so abused by the church because of his ‘evil rock and roll’ that he has decided that if heaven is filled with you [us, the church] then hell can only be a better place. I hear a man who has given up any hope of being loved by God because he has been told by the church that he is so fundamentally unlovable. I hear a man who has had the doors of hell shut pushed shut in his face so many times that he has gained an acceptace of his surroundings.
It is these attitudes that have made it so hard to share the gospel with anyone young in the UK. We should all cut our hair and start listening to Britney Spears. We would become instantly acceptable despite our love of morally bankrupt music*
If Jesus acted with such condemnation towards the woman at the well she would have gone home and found another bloke. He is not like this, he walks with people in the situations they are in and offers compassion and guidance.
On another note, at what point does guilt become a bad thing? Guilt leads to repentance and forgiveness – job done. Shame on the other hand is what is forstered by condemnation. Shame leads to withdrawal and further misdemeanour. If your church is fostering shame, it is growing a bunch of secret sinners. Guilt is the light in which the dark cannot hide**. This is where healing comes!
Oh yeah, I don’t think that God particularly likes the anti-christian NIN songs. But I don’t think he cried when Nietzsche wrote his obituary either. I think He is a little bigger and a little more mature than that.
*if you have missed the irony I appologise. It is firmly placed here.
**pants, did I just start using jargon? I repent!
Comment by Robb — January 11, 2008 @ 3:51 pm
you have hit the nine-inch-nail right on the head!!! thanks mate!
Comment by jonbirch — January 11, 2008 @ 4:36 pm
Fair enough Jon. I’m sorry to have judged you. I get what you are trying to communicate and I actually agree with you. I was in a bad mood and took it out on you and your post.
I ask your forgiveness.
Comment by Steve — January 11, 2008 @ 5:22 pm
forgiven! there, done.
your post did make me think more and put my thoughts into words. bless you steve.
Comment by jonbirch — January 11, 2008 @ 5:27 pm
i like your paragraph on guilt and shame robb.
Comment by jonbirch — January 11, 2008 @ 5:29 pm
It is a big distinction. Something I sometimes struggle to remember.
Comment by Robb — January 11, 2008 @ 6:17 pm
me too.
Comment by jonbirch — January 11, 2008 @ 6:37 pm
Well done for making it up Guys.
Love,
Sas x
Comment by sarah — January 12, 2008 @ 12:21 am
Amen
Comment by Robb — January 12, 2008 @ 12:55 am
to be fair… steve gave me not just an olive branch but the whole darned tree! much respect to the man steve!
Comment by jonbirch — January 12, 2008 @ 1:11 am
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I really like this post and thread. I didn’t like it at first.
I don’t know what God thinks about loads of things. But I don’t think he needs protecting from mess and grime and crap. I find myself protecting him sometimes. I need to keep shaking myself out of it. Cheers for the helping hand!
Comment by allatseawithabucketandspade — January 26, 2008 @ 10:16 am
Comment by jonbirch — January 26, 2008 @ 3:38 pm
I have followed this thread with interest – and hope you all don’t mind a visitor offering a comment.
I want to affirm that no-one knows what God thinks: and beware those who think that “their version” of God is the correct one. Nazi Germany thought that they understood God. White Apartheid South African thought that we understood God (I live in South Africa). I want to suggest that the only way we will get a glimpse of God is by getting to know Jesus – who takes us beyond our safe ideas of God: remember that he defied stereotyping by partying with prositiutes and tax collectors, and praying in the synagogue with the religious.
Nice blog – because it helps to remind us that God is outside of the church too.
Pete G
Comment by Pete — January 27, 2008 @ 9:46 am
cheers pete, and welcome. come and join in anytime! i agree with your comments. we have a record of what jesus thought through his teachings. if those you mention had perhaps attended to him more, without just picking and choosing odd bits that fitted their ideas, then maybe they wouldn’t have gone down the awful routes they did. thanks for posting.
Comment by jonbirch — January 27, 2008 @ 11:47 am