1. Ben – yes. I was involved in a small prayer group in the 1980s and learned much to my disgust that somehow information we shared in that group had been leaked to others in the congregation.
As I reported in John’s first cartoon on this dialogue, I heard that phrase uttered around Divinity school and it was amazing what you’d tell someone “in prayer” that would end up as fodder around the dining room tables.
I do agree that a bit of gender switching might be in order. While the worst gossip at divinity school was a gay male, I see this behavior to be far more prevalent among women.
Do you think this blog commentary in many ways is just a form of the same thing? Most groups, church and secular, have informal lines of communications. What was it Paul said about the tongue?
Oh yes – some groups spread “information” – the counterpart to the question, is the statement “we really must pray for X this week because …” – there are bits of “Christian” culture where this can be done with an entirely straight face.
Loving this whole ’subtitled life thing’. I heard someone get up in church during what was supposed to be silent reflection after a really moving sermon, then a bloke stood up and prayed – every word dismissing the sermon and disrespecting the preacher. Pathetic – prayer is not a veneer to dress up the airing of dirty laundry. Great cartoon. Oh and hello everyone!
I remember the lovely old dear who stood up in the APM (anual parish meeting) to ‘pray’. She said all of the things she didn’t have the bottle to say to our faces (I was on the PCC at the time). Total abuse of corporate prayer life. Intercessions as a mini sermon!!
The best way of dissmissing the words of the preacher were when I went to a non-conformist church. Obviously you need 45 minutes of sermon. As we were between ministers there was a guest preacher. After his 45 minutes about turning your back on God and walking away one of the elders stood up and said “We don’t believe that here, once saved always saved”. He then sat down again. But then the next week the same elder preached for 45 minutes on how “if you don’t believe in 6 24hr periods during creation you can’t be a christian”.
“Elder” is such an interesting word. Sometimes it means “wise” and can apply to people of any age. Sometimes it just means “old”.
Absolutely Robb – very nicely put. It sounds like the Elder in your story first confused doctrine then mere opinion with dogma. People do that an awful lot I reckon.
Well I have a theory on this one – there are 3 levels of belief. The first is an opinion or an idea. It can ebb and flow continuously. The next level of belief is doctrine, which I reckon is stronger than opinion and has an impact on decision making, understanding and actions. It can change, but not so easily as such change would have a big impact on how a person lives. Dogma is the final level of belief and could be described as absolute conviction – a point of view that is worth defending with one’s life (either living for it or in some instances dying for it). Appropriate dogma is a very good thing (Jesus died to bring salvation to all who want to recieve it), doctrine is not as important (though by no means trivial – infant baptism for instance, contentious sometimes, but ultimately not really a salvation issue) and opinion is very fluid. I suppose dogma distinguishes between religions, doctrine between denominations and opinions between people. That’s what I think, but I’d be interested to hear what others think (though it is off topic a bit – sorry). That’s what I mean when I say that people confuse opinions or doctrines for dogmas – it leads to devisiveness and often violence of some sort (verbal, social or sometimes even physical).
Great cartoon. I loathe people praying for me and will do almost anything to avoid it (there are a very few exceptions!). Not just because of the gossip angle but somehow there always seems to be a power thing going on with it. People start making all kinds of weird assumptions about you in those situations. Ugh! Best avoided all round.
I think this happens a lot in small group type settings…
But at the same time, there are people who genuinely care and genuinely pray… so EVERY NOW AND THEN this is kinda like the situation in Cartoon 398.
But basically I don’t ask people what I can pray for them about… If i care for them enough, anything they need prayer for will be revealed just as we hang out.
I don’t think this has anything to do with gender! – I’ve seen it happen often, by all sorts of well-meaning people, most of whom just lacked awareness of what they were doing, so just need forgiving really
“Oh Lord, please guide our leaders and help them not to make any mistakes” was one I found particularly laughable esp as it was prayed by one of the leader’s wives! (She disagreed strongly with some changes we were making). Hee, hee
Thanks Richard, that clarifies it a bit. I agree with your differentiation about types of belief but the words become confusing as they already have definitions. Dogmatics and doctrine are effectively the same thing – systematic theology. The difference is really that one (dogma) is the latin word. Essentially it is the different language uses by protestants and Catholics to say the same thing.
Dogma has a bad name because of the media representation. The more reformed a church becomes the more they claim to be “without dogma”. I remember the time I visited my old church (non-conformist) and overheard the hubble bubble toil and trouble in the kitchen. The subject was ‘experiences evangelising a friend*’. The conversation went thus:
“Well I have been talking to her for a few weeks and she seemed interested. She’s a lapsed Catholic and wanted to go to church so I said I’d go with her. She wouldn’t come here she only wanted to go to the Catholic church so I went with her. The service was very dry but you wouldn’t believe the indoctrination that was going on.”
It was at this point that I resisted the urge to stick my head through the serving hatch and ask two interesting questions:
“Baptism. Sprinkling or full emmersion?”
and
“where were you indoctrinated into that belief?”
The word doctrine/dogma seems to be a way of beating other parts of the church with a stick. We all have doctrine. Heck, we chant “priesthood of all believers” like it is a quote from scripture rather than a doctrine based upon us all being called to become part of a royal priesthood.
I guess the dogma is the point where we are all the same (Catholic/Protestant/Baptist/Evangelical/Butcher/Baker/Candlestick Maker) and the ebb and flow is the point where we differ. You know what I mean? Trinitarian – yes. Baptism policy? Ebb/flow…
Sadly the small group is a microcosm of the greater church, ie full of flawed people. I am selective about what I reveal in the small group. I think that you can reach a point where you feel confident with the other people but then someone goes and spoils the dynamic by bringing someone new in. Then you have to start the process all over again. I think I know which individuals I know who are capable of making a genuine prayer without breaking a confidence. But…
Speaking of gossip—well funny story really. A tutor went into a school to observe a trainee teacher. It was a faith school so the day started with prayer. Teacher ends prayer with, “Jesus, please let all the children know that you are watching them all the time so you can see when they are being naughty and you are very disappointed with them.” In the debrief, the tutor said that wasn’t the best approach – it was inappropriate and potentially damaging to the children’s view of Jesus, etc. The next time they prayed, she ended with. “Jesus, please let all the children know that Barney the Bear is sitting on the shelf and he is watching them all the time and sees when they are being naughty…”
Robb – I see what you mean. Systematic theology does lead to both doctrine and dogma, but I would personally avoid using the words ‘doctrine’ and ‘dogma’ interchangably, simply because I want to be able to distinguish what parts of my faith are non-negotiable (dogma), and which parts are negotiable (doctrine) and which parts are peripheral (opinion). I guess it’s just an approach that helps me personally at the moment.
Oh and I totally agree about your point that dogma has suffered at the hands of media and popular misrepresentation – the idea of having a solid conviction in todays post modern world where absolutes are roundly rejected is quite counter-cultural!
I’m sad to say that I am becoming much more guarded as time goes on. I have had “matters for prayer” come and bite me on the bum too often. When ‘the church’ knows about your “matters for prayer” and uses them and adds to them and rewrites them it is far too dangerous. Even close people I have trusted have done it. I now know that a) the church shoots it’s wounded. b) exactly who I can trust.
There is something to be said for having a sacrosanct priesthood. My monk mate wont even bring something up in a conversation unless I initiate it Things like this leed to a happy Robb.
As an asside Carole, when people use God as the stick, people never find the carrot he offers us!
dogma/doctrine… always confuses me, but robbs definition sounds right to me. doctrine too has a bad name when used in the context of indoctrination. very often those who hate your dogma or doctrine will spout one of their own in repost. i have faith… but i’m wary of dogma and indoctrination without checking the facts… i need to know why i believe something.
trinity is one where i get stuck. i believe in one god. i believe in father, son and holy spirit… but i only believe in one god. i know what’s being driven at by the concept of trinity, but i have to say it can’t half over complicate the issue. jehovah’s witnesses have a field day believing us to serve three gods… and i have to admit it can sound like that. jw’s also are sharp on the fact that the church pretty much ignores the new heaven and new earth. they’ve jumped into the churches dogma/doctrine loopholes and created stuff to fill the gaps. it is strange what is dogma and what isn’t… probably tells you as much about the political climate of when these things came about as it does what the bible actually says.
This is of course the issue with the English language in that it is fluid. Words change meaning over time depending on how they are used and when they are used. Look at the ruling about the Sex Pistols use of the word Bollocks and pointing out that it is “an olde englishe worde meaning olde balls”.
I think the categaries are correct. It’s not just a personal thing, it’s a good way of distinguishing how our faith opperates on a personal, congregational and universal level. It is just unfortunate that we’re discussing the categories using language that already has a pretty definite theological meaning. If you walk into a university and try to redefine the Catholics as having a “non-negotiable” faith and the Anglicans as being “negotiable” they may have some interesting reactions.
Carole – yes. We can’t stand around believing in trinity as it’s not cool!
Robb “…try to redefine the Catholics as having a “non-negotiable” faith and the Anglicans as being “negotiable” they may have some interesting reactions.”
Lol – I’m pretty sure they’d be mostly negative! I agree with you regarding language – we should be allowed to invent words rather than just trying to recycle or reinterpret old ones – problem is when I try to invent words, they usually have too few vowels!
Oh well, must get on. I’ve got jtjydjhdyrsyiy to get on with
Hey Richard, I heard the Dogma, Doctrine, Opinion, Heresy thing at Bible College, it was explained thus:
Dogma – A core part of the Christian faith, eg. The life, death and resurrection of Jesus. Basically someone who diverges from that would effectively not be a Christian!
Doctrine – An important but not core part of Christianity, for example baptism, communion.
Opinion – Something that differs from one to t’other, eg style of worship music
Heresy – Something which contradicts/comprimises a Dogma, i.e. ‘Jesus never rose from the dead’ would be a heresy.
Was fascinated by the discussion about dogma and doctrine, so looked the words up in the dictionary!
Doctrine was described as
“1. A principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief, as by a religious, political, scientific, or philosophic group; dogma.
2. A rule or principle of law, especially when established by precedent.
3. A statement of official government policy, especially in foreign affairs and military strategy.
4. Archaic Something taught; a teaching.”
[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin doctrīna, from doctor, teacher; see doctor.]
Interesting that dogma is listed as a synonym for doctrine!
Dogma was described as:
“1. A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church.
2. An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true. See Synonyms at doctrine.
3. A principle or belief or a group of them: “The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present” (Abraham Lincoln)”
So, according to dictionary.com anyway, they are synonyms and it is acceptable to use them interchangably! I think the main difference though is that Dogma was a fantastic film and Doctrine wasn’t
Robb. I am not sure the trinity is as simple as roles (you are not your son). Jesus clearly behaved as a separate being to his father. There is something way more fundamental going on.
That’s why we spend hours at bible school discussing it . That said, it doesn’t mean a simpler view isn’t also helpful. Sometimes the finer nuances of ‘proceeding from the father’ are not necessarily helpful to someone’s understanding.
Sometimes ‘if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved’ is enough. Sometimes it is necessary to debate the inner nature of the Godhead on an almost atomic* level. 11 year olds – not so much…
Caz, I once had a lad called Jake tell me that he beleived that God was like crisps, mash and chips… He was less impressed than I was with the ice water steam analogy. Kids “tsk” *rolleyes*
Steve great word! What does it mean?? Didn’t I pass a town called that when I was on holiday in Wales?
clare… saw your comment above and relate completely.
as well… sometimes prayer gets you focussing on the stuff you shouldn’t… churning stuff up… this probably isn’t prayer, but i do it and very often i’ve found other people going over stuff leaves me simply too raw. no good at all. hmmm.
See – look what happens when you all start getting technical – your brains explode.
Steve, we did the speaking in tonges one the other week – and if you are going to put that on a t-shirt you must be a hefty lad.
Get into theology and you get into the problem of science – needing to pin everything down. When you pin a butterfly down, its beauty dies. I prefer to leave some room for the beauty of God’s mystery. Oh and I don’t really understand theology anyway.
And finally, yep, I know we RC types do seem to be particularly prone to wanting to pin things down so that they don’t move, but I believe what I believe. I don’t blindly accept everything that the church tells me. If the church doesn’t like it, tough. I move with my conscience and if God has a problem with that, we’ll sort that out between us. My confessor knows the score on that one. But I do still believe that my place, as deemed by God is in that branch of the church.
And you guys are currently playing an important role in my journey, so thank you kindly…
hi jessica… i swapped around the genders deliberately because although i’ve seen women do this i reckon blokes do it too.
hi carole… steve is heftier than he used to be… but then aren’t we all!? you can even ‘pin down’ the holy mystery thing too i reckon. if it exists, you can bet yer ‘pert ass’ (quote) someone’s gonna wanna pin it down.
oh, la. I used to think guy’s weren’t into gossip! sadly I’ve realised otherwise, there’s little meddlers every where, does anyone have any ideas of dealing with this stuff?
so far I’ve decided to ignor as much as possible, with the hope that when they’re proved wrong, the little meddlers will have egg on their faces.
do people really think they’re helping when they meddle and gossip?
hey subo… i think very often people think they are helping. those who do, often do it for their own gratification and not the needs of their victim. other people like to know stuff to hold the power and this comes from being insecure. others are slanderous and must never be given info… although it can be fun to feed them a load of garbage and see how fast the news spreads.
as far as i’m aware there is no easy way to deal with a gossip esp. a malicious one. best to try and ignore it and wait for the egg… even if it takes forever. at the end of the day, you can only be you… other people may say what they will but let me tell you, you are cool… doesn’t matter what anyone says… you’re cool!
Fascinating debate. I’ve enjoyed reading it. Y’all are such interesting folk!!
I too am wary of telling people specific prayer requests because I don’t want it to lead to gossip. Isn’t it a desperate shame that we sinful humans taint such a beautiful gift as prayer?
I’m keen to get people in churches in my area to pray for the prisoners I work with but I keep the prayer requests very general to protect privacy. I comfort myself with the thought that God loves the guys enough to take the general prayers and apply them to the specific.
…is heftier than he used to be… but then aren’t we all!?
Yeah, tell me about it. I am trying to trim at the moment – even the big clothes are getting ’snug’ these days!
Well, Anne, tonight, before I depart into the land of Nod I will utter a little prayer in the most general terms for AnneDroid and her work at the prison. I imagine it is work which can take you from the highest highs to the lowest lows, so I expect you can’t have too many people badgering the Almighty on your behalf.
cheers for the kind words Jon, I’m sometimes so aware of how dependant we are on God. (thats one thing about getting asthma, even breathing can’t be taken for granted) It’s God who looks out for us. God who designed us, and whilst there’s plenty to airbrush out, we are still made with his loving care.
Robb. The hefty man has been thinking about the Trinity. For the gamers among us (which may include 11 year olds) I offer the gamer/avator model. Jesus and the Holy Sprit are a bit like God’s avatars (but way more autonomous and also rather more connected). They are how he chooses to manifest his actual self in our world (which he is cleary separate from). Jesus was how he chose to do it 2000 years ago and the Holy Spirit is how he choses to do it now.
Very nice definition. I do like the word avatar. Perfect example of the assimilation of a word and a subtle change in it’s meaning. To describe Jesus as God’s avatar to a hindu means something completely different (and yet strangely the same ). To explain Jesus and the Holy Spirit as Gods avatar to a gamer is a stroke of genius!
My marital issues shared in prayer came back to me via someone who’s moved over 300 miles away to Cumbria who visited my church one Sunday.
She told me “We’ve all been so worried about you.”
Who are “WE” – and if they’re so worried about me why hasn’t one of them picked up the phone or sent me an email, or even a text to find out if I’m actually OK?
Because the reality is, they enjoy the gossip more than they would enjoy loving and supporting me.
does that really happen? that sucks…
Comment by ben — March 13, 2008 @ 1:24 am
I ain’t seen it. Don’t mean it dont happen!!
Comment by Robb — March 13, 2008 @ 1:32 am
in the words of bart simpson… “it both sucks and blows at the same time!”
Comment by jonbirch — March 13, 2008 @ 1:49 am
My roommate thinks you should switch the genders. It being a man kind of makes it interesting. I have seen that with girls, but not so much with guys.
Comment by Jessica Denise — March 13, 2008 @ 2:48 am
ive heard people who preach while the pray,but thats about it.
Comment by ben — March 13, 2008 @ 4:16 am
1. Ben – yes. I was involved in a small prayer group in the 1980s and learned much to my disgust that somehow information we shared in that group had been leaked to others in the congregation.
As I reported in John’s first cartoon on this dialogue, I heard that phrase uttered around Divinity school and it was amazing what you’d tell someone “in prayer” that would end up as fodder around the dining room tables.
I do agree that a bit of gender switching might be in order. While the worst gossip at divinity school was a gay male, I see this behavior to be far more prevalent among women.
Comment by becky — March 13, 2008 @ 4:27 am
Oh yeah Ben…it happens.
Comment by Laura — March 13, 2008 @ 4:48 am
Do you think this blog commentary in many ways is just a form of the same thing? Most groups, church and secular, have informal lines of communications. What was it Paul said about the tongue?
Comment by Susan — March 13, 2008 @ 6:46 am
Oh yes – some groups spread “information” – the counterpart to the question, is the statement “we really must pray for X this week because …” – there are bits of “Christian” culture where this can be done with an entirely straight face.
Comment by Mark Bennet — March 13, 2008 @ 8:20 am
Susan
I think you probably mean James on the tongue (chapter 3) – but if you were thinking of something else, just add James to the list.
Mark
Comment by Mark Bennet — March 13, 2008 @ 8:22 am
@4. I agree, that was also the first thing I was thinking.
Comment by maxplanck — March 13, 2008 @ 9:11 am
I found that the people I spent time with would always be really cryptic.
“we really should pray for X”
Oh? Why?
“I can’t tell you”
**Imagine imagine imagine….**
I find that it is best not to say anything at all. The imagination can make up some of the most interesting things!
Comment by Robb — March 13, 2008 @ 9:23 am
Loving this whole ’subtitled life thing’. I heard someone get up in church during what was supposed to be silent reflection after a really moving sermon, then a bloke stood up and prayed – every word dismissing the sermon and disrespecting the preacher. Pathetic – prayer is not a veneer to dress up the airing of dirty laundry. Great cartoon. Oh and hello everyone!
Comment by Richard M. — March 13, 2008 @ 10:08 am
I remember the lovely old dear who stood up in the APM (anual parish meeting) to ‘pray’. She said all of the things she didn’t have the bottle to say to our faces (I was on the PCC at the time). Total abuse of corporate prayer life. Intercessions as a mini sermon!!
The best way of dissmissing the words of the preacher were when I went to a non-conformist church. Obviously you need 45 minutes of sermon. As we were between ministers there was a guest preacher. After his 45 minutes about turning your back on God and walking away one of the elders stood up and said “We don’t believe that here, once saved always saved”. He then sat down again. But then the next week the same elder preached for 45 minutes on how “if you don’t believe in 6 24hr periods during creation you can’t be a christian”.
“Elder” is such an interesting word. Sometimes it means “wise” and can apply to people of any age. Sometimes it just means “old”.
Comment by Robb — March 13, 2008 @ 10:37 am
Absolutely Robb – very nicely put. It sounds like the Elder in your story first confused doctrine then mere opinion with dogma. People do that an awful lot I reckon.
Comment by Richard M. — March 13, 2008 @ 10:52 am
What is the difference between doctrine and dogma?
Comment by Robb — March 13, 2008 @ 11:07 am
Well I have a theory on this one – there are 3 levels of belief. The first is an opinion or an idea. It can ebb and flow continuously. The next level of belief is doctrine, which I reckon is stronger than opinion and has an impact on decision making, understanding and actions. It can change, but not so easily as such change would have a big impact on how a person lives. Dogma is the final level of belief and could be described as absolute conviction – a point of view that is worth defending with one’s life (either living for it or in some instances dying for it). Appropriate dogma is a very good thing (Jesus died to bring salvation to all who want to recieve it), doctrine is not as important (though by no means trivial – infant baptism for instance, contentious sometimes, but ultimately not really a salvation issue) and opinion is very fluid. I suppose dogma distinguishes between religions, doctrine between denominations and opinions between people. That’s what I think, but I’d be interested to hear what others think (though it is off topic a bit – sorry). That’s what I mean when I say that people confuse opinions or doctrines for dogmas – it leads to devisiveness and often violence of some sort (verbal, social or sometimes even physical).
Comment by Richard M. — March 13, 2008 @ 11:34 am
Great cartoon. I loathe people praying for me and will do almost anything to avoid it (there are a very few exceptions!). Not just because of the gossip angle but somehow there always seems to be a power thing going on with it. People start making all kinds of weird assumptions about you in those situations. Ugh! Best avoided all round.
Comment by Clare — March 13, 2008 @ 12:18 pm
I think this happens a lot in small group type settings…
But at the same time, there are people who genuinely care and genuinely pray… so EVERY NOW AND THEN this is kinda like the situation in Cartoon 398.
But basically I don’t ask people what I can pray for them about… If i care for them enough, anything they need prayer for will be revealed just as we hang out.
Comment by Jaybrams — March 13, 2008 @ 1:06 pm
“Let me pray for you” should mean “let me pray for you.” Full stop.
Sas x
Comment by sarah — March 13, 2008 @ 1:19 pm
I don’t think this has anything to do with gender! – I’ve seen it happen often, by all sorts of well-meaning people, most of whom just lacked awareness of what they were doing, so just need forgiving really
“Oh Lord, please guide our leaders and help them not to make any mistakes” was one I found particularly laughable esp as it was prayed by one of the leader’s wives! (She disagreed strongly with some changes we were making). Hee, hee
Comment by Chris F — March 13, 2008 @ 1:26 pm
Thanks Richard, that clarifies it a bit. I agree with your differentiation about types of belief but the words become confusing as they already have definitions. Dogmatics and doctrine are effectively the same thing – systematic theology. The difference is really that one (dogma) is the latin word. Essentially it is the different language uses by protestants and Catholics to say the same thing.
Dogma has a bad name because of the media representation. The more reformed a church becomes the more they claim to be “without dogma”. I remember the time I visited my old church (non-conformist) and overheard the hubble bubble toil and trouble in the kitchen. The subject was ‘experiences evangelising a friend*’. The conversation went thus:
“Well I have been talking to her for a few weeks and she seemed interested. She’s a lapsed Catholic and wanted to go to church so I said I’d go with her. She wouldn’t come here she only wanted to go to the Catholic church so I went with her. The service was very dry but you wouldn’t believe the indoctrination that was going on.”
It was at this point that I resisted the urge to stick my head through the serving hatch and ask two interesting questions:
“Baptism. Sprinkling or full emmersion?”
and
“where were you indoctrinated into that belief?”
The word doctrine/dogma seems to be a way of beating other parts of the church with a stick. We all have doctrine. Heck, we chant “priesthood of all believers” like it is a quote from scripture rather than a doctrine based upon us all being called to become part of a royal priesthood.
I guess the dogma is the point where we are all the same (Catholic/Protestant/Baptist/Evangelical/Butcher/Baker/Candlestick Maker) and the ebb and flow is the point where we differ. You know what I mean? Trinitarian – yes. Baptism policy? Ebb/flow…
*matters for prayer
Comment by Robb — March 13, 2008 @ 1:39 pm
Sadly the small group is a microcosm of the greater church, ie full of flawed people. I am selective about what I reveal in the small group. I think that you can reach a point where you feel confident with the other people but then someone goes and spoils the dynamic by bringing someone new in. Then you have to start the process all over again. I think I know which individuals I know who are capable of making a genuine prayer without breaking a confidence. But…
Comment by Carole — March 13, 2008 @ 1:47 pm
Speaking of gossip—well funny story really. A tutor went into a school to observe a trainee teacher. It was a faith school so the day started with prayer. Teacher ends prayer with, “Jesus, please let all the children know that you are watching them all the time so you can see when they are being naughty and you are very disappointed with them.” In the debrief, the tutor said that wasn’t the best approach – it was inappropriate and potentially damaging to the children’s view of Jesus, etc. The next time they prayed, she ended with. “Jesus, please let all the children know that Barney the Bear is sitting on the shelf and he is watching them all the time and sees when they are being naughty…”
Comment by Carole — March 13, 2008 @ 1:54 pm
Robb – I see what you mean. Systematic theology does lead to both doctrine and dogma, but I would personally avoid using the words ‘doctrine’ and ‘dogma’ interchangably, simply because I want to be able to distinguish what parts of my faith are non-negotiable (dogma), and which parts are negotiable (doctrine) and which parts are peripheral (opinion). I guess it’s just an approach that helps me personally at the moment.
Comment by Richard M. — March 13, 2008 @ 2:17 pm
Oh and I totally agree about your point that dogma has suffered at the hands of media and popular misrepresentation – the idea of having a solid conviction in todays post modern world where absolutes are roundly rejected is quite counter-cultural!
Comment by Richard M. — March 13, 2008 @ 2:23 pm
I’m sad to say that I am becoming much more guarded as time goes on. I have had “matters for prayer” come and bite me on the bum too often. When ‘the church’ knows about your “matters for prayer” and uses them and adds to them and rewrites them it is far too dangerous. Even close people I have trusted have done it. I now know that a) the church shoots it’s wounded. b) exactly who I can trust.
There is something to be said for having a sacrosanct priesthood. My monk mate wont even bring something up in a conversation unless I initiate it
Things like this leed to a happy Robb.
As an asside Carole, when people use God as the stick, people never find the carrot he offers us!
Comment by Robb — March 13, 2008 @ 2:30 pm
dogma/doctrine… always confuses me, but robbs definition sounds right to me. doctrine too has a bad name when used in the context of indoctrination. very often those who hate your dogma or doctrine will spout one of their own in repost. i have faith… but i’m wary of dogma and indoctrination without checking the facts… i need to know why i believe something.
trinity is one where i get stuck. i believe in one god. i believe in father, son and holy spirit… but i only believe in one god. i know what’s being driven at by the concept of trinity, but i have to say it can’t half over complicate the issue. jehovah’s witnesses have a field day believing us to serve three gods… and i have to admit it can sound like that. jw’s also are sharp on the fact that the church pretty much ignores the new heaven and new earth. they’ve jumped into the churches dogma/doctrine loopholes and created stuff to fill the gaps. it is strange what is dogma and what isn’t… probably tells you as much about the political climate of when these things came about as it does what the bible actually says.
funny story carole.
great conversation all… back to work now.
Comment by jonbirch — March 13, 2008 @ 2:32 pm
Sorry Richard, we crossed the streams
This is of course the issue with the English language in that it is fluid. Words change meaning over time depending on how they are used and when they are used. Look at the ruling about the Sex Pistols use of the word Bollocks and pointing out that it is “an olde englishe worde meaning olde balls”.
I think the categaries are correct. It’s not just a personal thing, it’s a good way of distinguishing how our faith opperates on a personal, congregational and universal level. It is just unfortunate that we’re discussing the categories using language that already has a pretty definite theological meaning. If you walk into a university and try to redefine the Catholics as having a “non-negotiable” faith and the Anglicans as being “negotiable” they may have some interesting reactions.
Carole – yes. We can’t stand around believing in trinity as it’s not cool!
Comment by Robb — March 13, 2008 @ 2:38 pm
Jon, I believe in me. Me the son. Me the brother. Me the husband. Me the…
I still believe there is only one of me though
Back to work? Currently my work is X-men and discrimination
I love being me 
Comment by Robb — March 13, 2008 @ 2:40 pm
‘Jon, I believe in me. Me the son. Me the brother. Me the husband. Me the… I still believe there is only one of me though ‘
nicely put.
Comment by jonbirch — March 13, 2008 @ 2:51 pm
If it works for year 7
Comment by Robb — March 13, 2008 @ 2:53 pm
Robb “…try to redefine the Catholics as having a “non-negotiable” faith and the Anglicans as being “negotiable” they may have some interesting reactions.”
Lol – I’m pretty sure they’d be mostly negative! I agree with you regarding language – we should be allowed to invent words rather than just trying to recycle or reinterpret old ones – problem is when I try to invent words, they usually have too few vowels!
Oh well, must get on. I’ve got jtjydjhdyrsyiy to get on with
Comment by Richard M. — March 13, 2008 @ 2:56 pm
How about dranoine? Pladiontine?
Comment by Robb — March 13, 2008 @ 3:01 pm
They sound good – if GlaxoSmithKline haven’t already trademarked them!
Comment by Richard M. — March 13, 2008 @ 3:07 pm
Hey Richard, I heard the Dogma, Doctrine, Opinion, Heresy thing at Bible College, it was explained thus:
Dogma – A core part of the Christian faith, eg. The life, death and resurrection of Jesus. Basically someone who diverges from that would effectively not be a Christian!
Doctrine – An important but not core part of Christianity, for example baptism, communion.
Opinion – Something that differs from one to t’other, eg style of worship music
Heresy – Something which contradicts/comprimises a Dogma, i.e. ‘Jesus never rose from the dead’ would be a heresy.
Comment by DrNick — March 13, 2008 @ 3:43 pm
Was fascinated by the discussion about dogma and doctrine, so looked the words up in the dictionary!
Doctrine was described as
“1. A principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief, as by a religious, political, scientific, or philosophic group; dogma.
2. A rule or principle of law, especially when established by precedent.
3. A statement of official government policy, especially in foreign affairs and military strategy.
4. Archaic Something taught; a teaching.”
[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin doctrīna, from doctor, teacher; see doctor.]
Interesting that dogma is listed as a synonym for doctrine!
Dogma was described as:
“1. A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church.
2. An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true. See Synonyms at doctrine.
3. A principle or belief or a group of them: “The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present” (Abraham Lincoln)”
So, according to dictionary.com anyway, they are synonyms and it is acceptable to use them interchangably! I think the main difference though is that Dogma was a fantastic film and Doctrine wasn’t
Comment by doctor ruth — March 13, 2008 @ 3:45 pm
DrNick – That’s pretty much how it was explained to me at bible college too.
doctor ruth – lol at your film comment
Comment by Richard M. — March 13, 2008 @ 3:59 pm
Yo Doc whazaaaaap?
Funny what you find when you compare a definition of a latin word with the definition of it’s English translation
Comment by Robb — March 13, 2008 @ 4:06 pm
I always find praying for someone is easier that talking or listening to them. You get closure and an opportunity to go talk to someone else
Comment by steve — March 13, 2008 @ 4:14 pm
hahaha! v. funny steve!
Comment by jonbirch — March 13, 2008 @ 4:16 pm
Robb. I am not sure the trinity is as simple as roles (you are not your son). Jesus clearly behaved as a separate being to his father. There is something way more fundamental going on.
Comment by steve — March 13, 2008 @ 4:26 pm
That’s why we spend hours at bible school discussing it
. That said, it doesn’t mean a simpler view isn’t also helpful. Sometimes the finer nuances of ‘proceeding from the father’ are not necessarily helpful to someone’s understanding.
Sometimes ‘if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved’ is enough. Sometimes it is necessary to debate the inner nature of the Godhead on an almost atomic* level. 11 year olds – not so much…
*metaphore
Comment by Robb — March 13, 2008 @ 4:35 pm
Go to the top of the class!
Comment by steve — March 13, 2008 @ 4:54 pm
I like to think of the Trinity as being like water, ice and steam…. three totally different forms of “the same stuff”
But that’s just me
Comment by Caz — March 13, 2008 @ 4:57 pm
Caz. Would that be the triple point?
Comment by steve — March 13, 2008 @ 5:14 pm
Here comes my favorite word at the moment.
Comment by steve — March 13, 2008 @ 5:19 pm
Wait for it..
Comment by steve — March 13, 2008 @ 5:19 pm
Herediddlydoflamdarhairymejeedlesocks.
Comment by steve — March 13, 2008 @ 5:20 pm
I am still working on what it means.
Comment by steve — March 13, 2008 @ 5:20 pm
Caz, I once had a lad called Jake tell me that he beleived that God was like crisps, mash and chips… He was less impressed than I was with the ice water steam analogy. Kids “tsk” *rolleyes*
Steve great word! What does it mean?? Didn’t I pass a town called that when I was on holiday in Wales?
Comment by Robb — March 13, 2008 @ 5:33 pm
I am still working on what it means.
I’ve got to type faster!!
Comment by Robb — March 13, 2008 @ 5:34 pm
Thinking of putting it on a tshirt
Comment by steve — March 13, 2008 @ 5:37 pm
DOGMA – a very clever canine
DOCTRINE – a facility for the relief of medical advisors
Comment by Mark Bennet — March 13, 2008 @ 5:38 pm
mark… that’s the best definition yet… even better than dr. ruth, her husband, richard m and dr. nick all put together!
Comment by jonbirch — March 13, 2008 @ 5:46 pm
Please please please someone, anyone crack the joke so that we can all stop thinking it…
Comment by Robb — March 13, 2008 @ 5:58 pm
i’m not doing it robb!
clare… saw your comment above and relate completely.
as well… sometimes prayer gets you focussing on the stuff you shouldn’t… churning stuff up… this probably isn’t prayer, but i do it and very often i’ve found other people going over stuff leaves me simply too raw. no good at all. hmmm.
Comment by jonbirch — March 13, 2008 @ 6:31 pm
See – look what happens when you all start getting technical – your brains explode.
Steve, we did the speaking in tonges one the other week – and if you are going to put that on a t-shirt you must be a hefty lad.
Get into theology and you get into the problem of science – needing to pin everything down. When you pin a butterfly down, its beauty dies. I prefer to leave some room for the beauty of God’s mystery. Oh and I don’t really understand theology anyway.
And finally, yep, I know we RC types do seem to be particularly prone to wanting to pin things down so that they don’t move, but I believe what I believe. I don’t blindly accept everything that the church tells me. If the church doesn’t like it, tough. I move with my conscience and if God has a problem with that, we’ll sort that out between us. My confessor knows the score on that one. But I do still believe that my place, as deemed by God is in that branch of the church.
And you guys are currently playing an important role in my journey, so thank you kindly…
Comment by Carole — March 13, 2008 @ 6:40 pm
…that’s tongues with a ‘u’…
Comment by Carole — March 13, 2008 @ 6:41 pm
hi jessica… i swapped around the genders deliberately because although i’ve seen women do this i reckon blokes do it too.
hi carole… steve is heftier than he used to be… but then aren’t we all!?
you can even ‘pin down’ the holy mystery thing too i reckon. if it exists, you can bet yer ‘pert ass’ (quote) someone’s gonna wanna pin it down. 
Comment by jonbirch — March 13, 2008 @ 8:17 pm
oh, la. I used to think guy’s weren’t into gossip! sadly I’ve realised otherwise, there’s little meddlers every where, does anyone have any ideas of dealing with this stuff?
so far I’ve decided to ignor as much as possible, with the hope that when they’re proved wrong, the little meddlers will have egg on their faces.
do people really think they’re helping when they meddle and gossip?
Comment by subo — March 13, 2008 @ 8:17 pm
hey subo… i think very often people think they are helping. those who do, often do it for their own gratification and not the needs of their victim. other people like to know stuff to hold the power and this comes from being insecure. others are slanderous and must never be given info… although it can be fun to feed them a load of garbage and see how fast the news spreads.
as far as i’m aware there is no easy way to deal with a gossip esp. a malicious one. best to try and ignore it and wait for the egg… even if it takes forever. at the end of the day, you can only be you… other people may say what they will but let me tell you, you are cool… doesn’t matter what anyone says… you’re cool!
Comment by jonbirch — March 13, 2008 @ 8:38 pm
Fascinating debate. I’ve enjoyed reading it. Y’all are such interesting folk!!
I too am wary of telling people specific prayer requests because I don’t want it to lead to gossip. Isn’t it a desperate shame that we sinful humans taint such a beautiful gift as prayer?
I’m keen to get people in churches in my area to pray for the prisoners I work with but I keep the prayer requests very general to protect privacy. I comfort myself with the thought that God loves the guys enough to take the general prayers and apply them to the specific.
Ax
Comment by AnneDroid — March 13, 2008 @ 9:20 pm
…is heftier than he used to be… but then aren’t we all!?
Yeah, tell me about it. I am trying to trim at the moment – even the big clothes are getting ’snug’ these days!
Well, Anne, tonight, before I depart into the land of Nod I will utter a little prayer in the most general terms for AnneDroid and her work at the prison. I imagine it is work which can take you from the highest highs to the lowest lows, so I expect you can’t have too many people badgering the Almighty on your behalf.
Comment by Carole — March 13, 2008 @ 9:33 pm
Thanks Carole, much appreciated.
Ax, your fellow “trimmer”! (A prisoner noticed today so I must be making progress!)
Comment by AnneDroid — March 13, 2008 @ 9:46 pm
cheers for the kind words Jon, I’m sometimes so aware of how dependant we are on God. (thats one thing about getting asthma, even breathing can’t be taken for granted) It’s God who looks out for us. God who designed us, and whilst there’s plenty to airbrush out, we are still made with his loving care.
Comment by su — March 14, 2008 @ 7:30 am
Robb. The hefty man has been thinking about the Trinity. For the gamers among us (which may include 11 year olds) I offer the gamer/avator model. Jesus and the Holy Sprit are a bit like God’s avatars (but way more autonomous and also rather more connected). They are how he chooses to manifest his actual self in our world (which he is cleary separate from). Jesus was how he chose to do it 2000 years ago and the Holy Spirit is how he choses to do it now.
Comment by steve — March 14, 2008 @ 10:00 am
Very nice definition. I do like the word avatar. Perfect example of the assimilation of a word and a subtle change in it’s meaning. To describe Jesus as God’s avatar to a hindu means something completely different (and yet strangely the same
). To explain Jesus and the Holy Spirit as Gods avatar to a gamer is a stroke of genius!
Comment by Robb — March 14, 2008 @ 10:47 am
very good steve. my, you have been thinking.
Comment by jonbirch — March 14, 2008 @ 11:12 am
Thanks. Must sleep…
Comment by steve — March 14, 2008 @ 12:41 pm
“Peter so needed to know if he was any good, Jane stoped speaking to him after sex, and the suspense……..”
Comment by subo — March 14, 2008 @ 3:11 pm
Yes, Su, I really agree with you that we should bring this to the Lord. So, what happened next…?
Comment by Carole — March 14, 2008 @ 4:41 pm
su… like carole said… you stopped at the juicy part… or did you start just after the juicy part?
Comment by jonbirch — March 15, 2008 @ 12:10 am
after church Jane went home to her house mates and told them ‘Peter is a creep’
Comment by subo — March 15, 2008 @ 9:05 am
[...] [Image from a post at The Ongoing Adventures of ASBO Jesus.] [...]
Pingback by Gossip « Just one step at a time — March 19, 2008 @ 10:27 pm
My marital issues shared in prayer came back to me via someone who’s moved over 300 miles away to Cumbria who visited my church one Sunday.
She told me “We’ve all been so worried about you.”
Who are “WE” – and if they’re so worried about me why hasn’t one of them picked up the phone or sent me an email, or even a text to find out if I’m actually OK?
Because the reality is, they enjoy the gossip more than they would enjoy loving and supporting me.
Comment by Becstar77 — June 10, 2008 @ 1:08 pm