when did “telling the truth in love” become equated with “telling someone they messed up” (and/or with “telling someone they messed up and beating them up for it”)? Is that biblical, or is that just something we added? (That’s an honest question, and I’d like to know the answer if anyone knows.)
“Jesus loves you.” a very truthful statement. Extremely loving. I like it when I hear that…
Tho in defense of the other bit – I know at least two people who are very gifted at being able to truthfully guide me into seeing the previous error of my ways and set me straight again in a way that builds me up and actually makes me feel okay about it all – tho, that said, they’ve *NEVER* started by SAYING that was their intent. They just do it – they speak hard truth i need to hear in a way that helps me see that they love me and want God’s best for me. It’s pretty cool, actually.
I’m so sad it doesn’t work the way it’s supposed to all the time for everyone…
Here’s my favorite “I feel it’s my obligation as a Christian to confront you” – this from a male pseudo church leader (I say pseudo because from what I can see his church existed only in his imagination.) He wanted to ‘clear the air’ and ‘force’ a relationship and I kept saying that while Christ says I must extend love, sometimes it’s best if some people don’t work together.
In a relationship based on shed loads of integrity, a deep deep respect for another’s feelings, a supernatural ability to empathize and a completely selfless desire for the best (and the knowledge of what the best in a given situation is) this can work. Problem is we (I) are creatures of little integrity with mostly selfish motives who struggle to even open doors for each other. I generally leave it alone. It’s hard enough pointing out a bogey.
Don’t know if anyone is familiar with a little book called ‘all cats have aspergers’? a comment in there really struck me, ‘other people think they would be better at parenting your aspergers child’, it’s so true of many things. ‘other people think they’d be better at ……………
#5 Fab Steve. I leave it alone too. I have decided to go with the philosophy that the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, not me. But I do realise that can be a cop out…
Ax
there is a select group of people that i can take this kind of truth from. They are the people who don’t need to start the sentence with “I’m going to tell you the truth in love”. From them i think i can hear most things. I know it is in love.
I kind of feel that those that need to say this believe it is their christian “obligation” to tell you when you are doing something wrong. I am pretty sure there is biblical teaching and president but only from the person to whom you have wronged. Not a bystander with something to say.
What do people think?
Perhaps if the ‘I’m going to say this in love’ bit needs to be said, then the relationship with that person should be better before you start to speak into their situation. Of course, this is very simplistic – sometimes something does need to be said. It’s another one of those situations where you can’t have a general understanding – the specific situation and issues need to be taken into account. What I think is clear is that the ‘in love bit should be paramount, rather than simply a warning light for one to gird one’s loins for a roasting.
Richard. Unfortunately I am “blessed” with an good set of PA ears and the ability to play adequately and find myself on both ends of this expression of “love” quite often. If God had intended us to be heard (or hear) over the bass player then he would have given our own internal mixer….
Steve – I too find myself in that position, as a PA operator and a drummer. There’s no such thing as too much bass in my opinion. Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with me on that one. Philistines.
Ahhhhh… the christian version of “I don’t mean to be rude”*
Steve – or playing any instrument other than the organ!! Actually, you don’t need to “tell the truth in love”, you can just be down right rude!!
Richard, I find that the people dispensing towards the sound engineer are also dispensing with the truth bit too!! That said, I once had a ’sound engineer’ tell me to turn my amp down – when it was off. I guess it works both ways
*IE – I am about to be really rude to you and have told you you can’t complain about it.
I guess as a christian drummer you will have had the bizarre experience of being quarantined. Never have I ever seen a piece of perspex around a drummer other than in church. Not on stage, not in a rehearsal and not in the recording studio. Truly bizarre!
surely, music IS bass and drums… what else is there?
in my experience it’s important to mix the vocalists down, they’ll only ruin it! …and my contraversial view is that the guitarist should be plugged into the mains rather than the guitar!
pianist should only be allocated a certain amount of notes to play before the service starts… if they use them all up in the first song, the soundman is well within his rights to turn their channel down to zero.
fascist rant over.
I’ve only been quarantined a couple of times before – it gets awfully loud behind one of those screens and it gets hard to communicate ideas to the band and make suggesti… oh, I get it
The thing that gets me is people who comment on music in church, but have NO experience WHATSOEVER of music other than M.O.R ‘worship albums’ – IT WON’T SOUND LIKE YOUR STUDIO ALBUM PLAYING THROUGH YOUR TINNY TURNED DOWN CD PLAYER!!!!!! If live music ain’t working in church fair enough, go for poetry or discussion or something else entirely. Rant over – sorry.
Robb – by ‘crossing streams’ does that mean going off on a tangent? Sorry mate – I can tend to do that.
Jon – brilliant! I’ve always said a singer can ruin a perfectly decent song.
Anyhoo – how should we confront issues? [feeble attempt to return to topic]
one sunday the drummer will be in his wierd perspex box when the minister pours formaldahide in… and suddenly it all becomes clear… you are to be exhibited at the tate. there is no other reason for a perspex contraption as far as i’m aware.
hey richard m. i think ‘crossing streams’ means you’re posting at the same time as each other.
i think the only way of confronting the issue is for all parties concerned to have a massive fist fight. if the musicians win then you get to strap the complainers in to their pews and play at them until their ears pack up. however, if the complainers win you are within your rights to ignore them… no one likes a misery.
go for it robb… plug it in and turn it all the way up to 11!
maybe rather than drums in a worship band, the drummer could fasten together complaining members fof the congregation. you’ll find out how hollow they are by the note you get out of them when hit with a drumstick!
see richard… me and robb just crossed streams.
i used to cross streams in the urinals at school with my friends… you’re not allowed to stuff like that when you’re an adult. growwing up is a disappointment.
the drummer could fasten together complaining members fof the congregation. you’ll find out how hollow they are by the note you get out of them when hit with a drumstick
Park G10 (well I was only a kid)
Marshall Valvestate V80
JCM 900
JCM 2000 TSL 100
Thought I would live and die a Marshall man with a Les Paul. Saw a demo of the HD147 and thought – wow that is versatile.
When I contemplated buying one I was given a catalogue and found the next page had the Vetta II. I just had to see one for real. It was amazing. I refused to get rid of the Marshall so it lived in the spare room next to the Vetta. After 1.5 years it hadn’t been plugged in so I traded it in against another guitar.
I can’t believe how good a sound it gets. At the press of a button I can go from Eddie Van Halen to Brian May and then press another button and drop on to an acoustic guitar, with a capo on… And when I want to play for myself instead of for other people, I can whack a virtual Marshall Silver Jubilee head on it, pick up the Les Paul and play until my hearts content
Oooh well, if we’re talking gear, I use a Jalapeno ‘bug’ kit (handbuilt to order – very lovely) and a bunch of sabian and zildjian cymbals, and a Roland SPD-S sampling pad. I would be interested in getting hold of a Muppaphone though.
Richard. The Jalapeno stuff looks nice. You sound like a serious player.
Bit of a part time skinflint me. I have a Peavey Classic 120/TBraxx (Ampeg killer) and a homemade 110 (fancy a 410), a Warwick 12 combo (nice and light), Tanglewood 5 and one of those funny looking Ashbory rubber band thingys with non-talc strings.
Have just sold the 5 string Bass Collection that’s been with me for the last 12 years
But on the up side, it’s been replace with a Warwick Thumb 5 string which is even nicer!
Played through a Trace Elliot stack.
And you’re right – there can NEVER be too much bass!!!
But back on topic -
There are occasionally times where you have to tell someone something difficult, and this is really hard (or at least, it should be hard! If you enjoy it then you probably shouldn’t be saying it!).
I’m not sure there is any easy way of giving even the most constructive criticism – people, particularly in churches, can be so defensive. Like when you have a choir of 4 people who can’t really sing…
@ Dr R – I’ll let you deal with that litle problem….
I think the phrase “I’m telling you this in love…” is often used to give license to be offensive. I know that when I have something difficult to say, it is to those close to me who I have a relationship with. People who I can have a proper conversation with. Conversations that start “Can we get a coffee…” and continue with dialogue and questions and discussion and thought and allowing people to make their own mind up. Who the hell am I to just make a judgement and prescribe a remedy?
Oooooo, I think I just hit a key word here. Judgement. That is what the phrase “in love” tends to mean – ‘I have weighed you and found you wanting’.
Talk about topical! Just last night I was working with someone who had just come from a long day at work. As they sat in my office before preparing for a meeting I was faced with a very difficult decision, do i let them just go on or do I tactfully ‘in love’ point out that they really could use some deodorant? I chose the latter, I have the kind of relationship with that person where I can say that. This person has on occasion tactfully offered be a piece of gum… There is a place for speaking truth in love. problem is much of the time the ‘truth’ part is really just opinion and the ‘love’ part is often totally absent.
Cant remember exactly. Somewhere up north at a hardcore rave. My mate (Jon Doe – CLSM) was PAing (and fancied a 4O year old bass player on the stage. The guy “on the mic” with 69 on his back used to be part of the KLF, apparently.
Dr Ruth, I’m in a similar predicament with the worship band at my church.
I sing and drum, there’s an “organist”, a “worship leader” who sings and plays guitar – badly, two old dears that have been singing since before I was born… a violinist, and our saving grace, my extremely talented friend, D, who plays guitar brilliantly, and sings (when there is a spare mic available).
He went to music college. Why they don’t realise that HE should be the worship leader I don’t know!
Caz, we have the age old dilema in just about every church in the country. There are faithful people who have ben doing what they can since before we were born. They started off as a weaker member of strong choir or as occasional organist for one song in the evening. As time has passed they have been bumped up into the position of having to do all playing/singing in all services. The leader is often the person who has no experience as a musician who ends up leading everything.
When it comes to “the band”, invariably it is someone who has no experience of working in a band who is the one who has wrestled control. I can’t number the grains of sand I have seen who have decided that they want to be up front so they buy an acoustic guitar. They are the “worship leader” and everyone must follow them. Concepts such as tempo, beat and melody be damned. I am the leader, Bwahahahahahahaaaaaaa!
A good friend of ours is a sound engineer. He heads up a recording studio. He spent his life learning a variety of instruments (drums are his main but also guitar and piano and a load of other stuff). In his church he isn’t allowed to play. Insecurities of the guy who insists that he is the worship leader – who can’t play.
People sometimes want to grab as much power as they can through music.
What is amazing is that everyone seems to realise this. When a minister talks to you they always really appreciate the faithful service that has been done by those who have had it fall at their feet. They always appreciate the time and effort that has been put in by the few. They never know what to do about that person who has appointed themselves as Lord and Master of the rota.
I try to keep out of it. Ruth is much better at diplomacy.
My wife is putting together a drama production with our Youth. She’s involving them in writing, performing, producing, every aspect of the thing. This week she had to tell two teenage girls that while she’d love to have them involved they wouldn’t be ‘in’ the play cos they flat out can’t act. never an easy thing to do but done with love and sensitivity it can be a constructive moment in a young person’s life. Done too bluntly and you can do real damage.
Caz – I can’t begin to imagine how upsetting that situation must be. I think one problem is ego – people can’t take criticism nor do they like entertaining the idea that there are musicians who can do what they do a lot better than them, so they feel insecure. So they become power grabbing. It’s awful. It’s sort of like what they do has become who they are, so when what they do is ‘threatened’, they get defensive. Public ministry is no place to work out issues though – it hurts so many people.
the phenomena of church – oppress the gifted, bore the youthful, and ask people to show love in a prickly hot house.
actually I think church is potentially powerful place to be and a direct source of God’s healing, it’s just that,
as Jon’s highlighted with these cartoons, there’s so much scope for abuse in a community of faith.
it’s my belief that the key to a real sense of community is an ability to accept and listen to each other. – imagine a church leadership committed to making sure every one knows they are heard and their different needs responded to, and who find concrete ways for people to experience this.
11. In my experience when someone says he has an obligation to ‘confront in love’ they tend to “justify” this by reciting verses from either Proverbs or the letters of Paul. Apparently the fact that we are both baptized and thus part of this global brotherhood gives them the “right” to have a familial relationship with me — even though we don’t attend the same church and at best only interact occasionally at say church type events or even online.
40. Agreed – I fell into a trap last summer where I thought I was friends enough to offer a corrective (and I was right – they were posting pictures of themselves that could have gotten them fired from their church positions). It blew up in my face – I see in hindsight that they are in a holy hipster mode and have surrounded themselves with others of the same mindset. I “wish” they had a community that could help guide them but like anyone engaged in acting out behavior, they don’t see the need to stop — and as I’ve learned the hard way, I don’t think you can do people in this state for them except pray (while keeping the prayers to yourself). As I’ve learned the hard way, intervening when someone is engaged in acting out behavior always backfires.
Richard M. which bit are your wondering is possible? – “I think church is potentially powerful place to be and a direct source of God’s healing,” I believe this because I believe God gave us church for a reason, not sure it matters how many people.
Su, I think that is a fine line. When do the people who are oppressing stop being the people who need encouraging to grow and when do the people we encourage to grow become the oppressors?
I wonder if the age old Yorkshire phrase is important here.
Theres them that know, them that don’t know and them that don’t know that they don’t know.
The times I have seen someone tell my sound engineer friend about tempo – and him just very graciously take it. I was once in a band with a professional organist who slummed it with us to do some honky tonk piano once a month. He was the most mild mannered man in the world – about my dads age. He would play organ for various things (non church – graduations and recitals and the like) to the point where he had a very nice house. When the song fell apart for the third time the choir mistress told us that the band (with good drummer) were going out of time. He slammed his fist down and dressed her down. I’ve never seen him so much as correct her. 10 years of being treated like he was brain dead came gushing out with the words “NO, You and wrong it is you who is going out of time. It is a synopated rhythm and you are singing it straight!!”
I’m not sure it was the most diplomatic but it was so uncharacteristic he got away with it
It IS possible Richard. It’s not easy and it requires great wisdom from leadership to see the changing needs of a growing church. but as someone who works at a church of over 2000 where that sense of community is happening and flourishing, i can assure you that it may be rare. but it IS possible.
Subo – I was on about community and everyone having the chance to have a go. I fully endorse what you say about church per se.
Tom C – That’s great. I suppose though that the relational dynamic would change in a larger congregation? E.g. not everyone would know everyone and there would be space for people to remain anonymous?
Tom hit the nail on the head – Where I’ve seen a real community flourish and happen in a church or other religious community, it’s been when there was mature and sound leadership that set the example for others to follow.
The examples I referenced in 52 came from self-appointed “church leaders” in the US emergent church. (I use that term because it seems that anyone can set up a blog and call themselves a pastor). In both these cases, there isn’t any real peer-to-peer support that can help guide and mold these holy hipsters into real leaders. (It’s akin to an alcoholic relying on his bar buddies to sober up.)
And it’s up to me to seek out those leaders – in my fallen state, I can get so easily sucked into the gossip mode that it’s unreal.
In case it wasn’t clear – I meant it’s up to me to seek out the mature and sound leaders not the holy hipsters types that are more concerned with being cool than Christ-like. Sounds like high school redux.
I too am a sound engineer (all though I stepped down for a year to focus on my degree and other service stuff), the best examples I’ve had is the worship leader who was half deaf and then complained the fold-back was never loud enough, even though it deafened everyone else! And the old ladies who sat at the very front, as close to the band and the main speaker as was physically possible, and then complained it was too loud!
Back on topic, this is a difficult area, I often find the following, especially when someone is engaged in destructive behaviour, happens:
a) The people who have the love, subtlety, courage and genuine desire to help don’t have the influence to do so, or are clueless about whats going on.
b) The people with the influence don’t care or are afraid to say anything.
c) The people who take pleasure in ‘telling the truth in (absolutely no) love (whatsoever)’ end up saying something and nothing constructive comes out of it!
At least that’s been my experience, I’m not sure if you guys have found the same?
Sorry hit sent by accident – pardon the grammar. I’m cynical enough that I need a few a) people in my life to remind me that there is goodness where sometimes I can’t see it. Sometimes these people are clueless but what I’ve also seen in some religious leaders with these traits is that they want to affirm anyone. While this is noble, if left unchecked, they allow for some very dysfunctional situations to take place by say allowing someone to remain in a church leadership position even though said person makes everyone else run for the hills.
2) I have found religous leaders with “influence” are often focused on their own mission and unless they have a community around them to hold them in check, they can very easily develop myopia. (There are some who are just self-absorbed of course but I find the myopic type much more prevalent.)
As fare as 3) I find that if you get to sit down and talk to the gossip, you’ll find out pretty quickly that they have been deeply wounded and they feed this wound by bringing others down to their level. When I engage in snippy type gossip, it’s out of anger – someone I care about has wounded me and I want to hit back. The two incidents I’ve referenced were with people I once thought were my “friends” and I treated them as such until it was clear they weren’t.
Truth, if it IS truth, keeps us from deluding ourselves and so is always on our side – whether pleasant or unpleasant. So love will tell the truth – if it IS love
Love at its best makes no demands on us. “You have to change your behaviour towards me so that I will feel better and if you don’t I will punish myself by feeling bad and you too for making me act in this crazy way”. No – love doesn’t NEED a positive response.
‘love doesn’t NEED a positive response.’ nice one.
off to play five-a-side now. i’m going to be rubbish, i can tell.
formula 1 starts in the small hours tonight… so the year properly begins now. hurrah!
linking back the prayer one yesterday…. how about when someone interrupts and prays over your band rehearsal to ’stop satan attacking’ with the ’screechy vocals’… do you think he was trying to tell me something?
susan… to answer you in truth and love… thank you.
amy… hmmmmm… i feel damned if i comment damned if i don’t… but i think i’ll go with robbs response… frankly that’s a crappy, ridiculous and very strange way to approach anything… is said person on medication?
Bullying by prayer 4 me is a bit pants!! Erm – let me pray for you *and cower before me*!! Erm…. problem is that this is the area where we are vunerable!!!
wow, so much on this blog since I last visited. some of you write from being in the thick of it, and working really hard to build growing communities, so really I should shut up – as I don’t do anything so worthy.
I do still believe though, that it is our ability to listen and empathise with each other that builds community, and that this takes time, skill and experience.
omg…i’d run screaming out of the room is someone said that to me.
Comment by Laura — March 14, 2008 @ 3:56 am
if not is
Comment by Laura — March 14, 2008 @ 3:57 am
yeah – being forewarned is not always helpful…
when did “telling the truth in love” become equated with “telling someone they messed up” (and/or with “telling someone they messed up and beating them up for it”)? Is that biblical, or is that just something we added? (That’s an honest question, and I’d like to know the answer if anyone knows.)
“Jesus loves you.” a very truthful statement. Extremely loving. I like it when I hear that…
Tho in defense of the other bit – I know at least two people who are very gifted at being able to truthfully guide me into seeing the previous error of my ways and set me straight again in a way that builds me up and actually makes me feel okay about it all – tho, that said, they’ve *NEVER* started by SAYING that was their intent.
They just do it – they speak hard truth i need to hear in a way that helps me see that they love me and want God’s best for me. It’s pretty cool, actually.
I’m so sad it doesn’t work the way it’s supposed to all the time for everyone…
Comment by Happy — March 14, 2008 @ 4:07 am
Here’s my favorite “I feel it’s my obligation as a Christian to confront you” – this from a male pseudo church leader (I say pseudo because from what I can see his church existed only in his imagination.)
He wanted to ‘clear the air’ and ‘force’ a relationship and I kept saying that while Christ says I must extend love, sometimes it’s best if some people don’t work together. 
Comment by becky — March 14, 2008 @ 4:53 am
In a relationship based on shed loads of integrity, a deep deep respect for another’s feelings, a supernatural ability to empathize and a completely selfless desire for the best (and the knowledge of what the best in a given situation is) this can work. Problem is we (I) are creatures of little integrity with mostly selfish motives who struggle to even open doors for each other. I generally leave it alone. It’s hard enough pointing out a bogey.
Comment by steve — March 14, 2008 @ 7:24 am
Don’t know if anyone is familiar with a little book called ‘all cats have aspergers’? a comment in there really struck me, ‘other people think they would be better at parenting your aspergers child’, it’s so true of many things. ‘other people think they’d be better at ……………
Comment by su — March 14, 2008 @ 7:34 am
#5 Fab Steve. I leave it alone too. I have decided to go with the philosophy that the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, not me. But I do realise that can be a cop out…
Ax
Comment by AnneDroid — March 14, 2008 @ 8:10 am
On the other hand if the person on the receiving end is running the PA you can say what you like
Comment by steve — March 14, 2008 @ 8:17 am
Su. Cat vs Dog theology.
Cat: “You love me you feed me I must be God.
Dog: “You love me you feed me YOU must be God”
I see plenty of cats in church, fewer dogs.
Comment by steve — March 14, 2008 @ 8:21 am
lol at Steve! I’ve often found that people dispense with the ‘in love’ part when addressing the PA person!
Comment by Richard M. — March 14, 2008 @ 8:26 am
there is a select group of people that i can take this kind of truth from. They are the people who don’t need to start the sentence with “I’m going to tell you the truth in love”. From them i think i can hear most things. I know it is in love.
I kind of feel that those that need to say this believe it is their christian “obligation” to tell you when you are doing something wrong. I am pretty sure there is biblical teaching and president but only from the person to whom you have wronged. Not a bystander with something to say.
What do people think?
Comment by Will — March 14, 2008 @ 8:26 am
Perhaps if the ‘I’m going to say this in love’ bit needs to be said, then the relationship with that person should be better before you start to speak into their situation. Of course, this is very simplistic – sometimes something does need to be said. It’s another one of those situations where you can’t have a general understanding – the specific situation and issues need to be taken into account. What I think is clear is that the ‘in love bit should be paramount, rather than simply a warning light for one to gird one’s loins for a roasting.
Comment by Richard M. — March 14, 2008 @ 9:17 am
Richard. Unfortunately I am “blessed” with an good set of PA ears and the ability to play adequately and find myself on both ends of this expression of “love” quite often. If God had intended us to be heard (or hear) over the bass player then he would have given our own internal mixer….
Comment by steve — March 14, 2008 @ 10:27 am
Steve – I too find myself in that position, as a PA operator and a drummer. There’s no such thing as too much bass in my opinion. Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with me on that one. Philistines.
Comment by Richard M. — March 14, 2008 @ 10:51 am
Ahhhhh… the christian version of “I don’t mean to be rude”*
Steve – or playing any instrument other than the organ!! Actually, you don’t need to “tell the truth in love”, you can just be down right rude!!
Richard, I find that the people dispensing towards the sound engineer are also dispensing with the truth bit too!! That said, I once had a ’sound engineer’ tell me to turn my amp down – when it was off. I guess it works both ways
*IE – I am about to be really rude to you and have told you you can’t complain about it.
Comment by Robb — March 14, 2008 @ 10:54 am
Again we cross the streams Richard….
Bass, the final fronteer!!
I guess as a christian drummer you will have had the bizarre experience of being quarantined. Never have I ever seen a piece of perspex around a drummer other than in church. Not on stage, not in a rehearsal and not in the recording studio. Truly bizarre!
Comment by Robb — March 14, 2008 @ 10:57 am
surely, music IS bass and drums… what else is there?
in my experience it’s important to mix the vocalists down, they’ll only ruin it! …and my contraversial view is that the guitarist should be plugged into the mains rather than the guitar!
pianist should only be allocated a certain amount of notes to play before the service starts… if they use them all up in the first song, the soundman is well within his rights to turn their channel down to zero.
fascist rant over.
Comment by jonbirch — March 14, 2008 @ 11:01 am
I’ve only been quarantined a couple of times before – it gets awfully loud behind one of those screens and it gets hard to communicate ideas to the band and make suggesti… oh, I get it
The thing that gets me is people who comment on music in church, but have NO experience WHATSOEVER of music other than M.O.R ‘worship albums’ – IT WON’T SOUND LIKE YOUR STUDIO ALBUM PLAYING THROUGH YOUR TINNY TURNED DOWN CD PLAYER!!!!!! If live music ain’t working in church fair enough, go for poetry or discussion or something else entirely. Rant over – sorry.
Robb – by ‘crossing streams’ does that mean going off on a tangent? Sorry mate – I can tend to do that.
Jon – brilliant! I’ve always said a singer can ruin a perfectly decent song.
Anyhoo – how should we confront issues? [feeble attempt to return to topic]
Comment by Richard M. — March 14, 2008 @ 11:16 am
But your idea of drum and bass is very different to mine
And as the guitarist, I am well and truly plugged into the mains. You just need to feel the pwer of the Vetta II
Comment by Robb — March 14, 2008 @ 11:16 am
one sunday the drummer will be in his wierd perspex box when the minister pours formaldahide in… and suddenly it all becomes clear… you are to be exhibited at the tate. there is no other reason for a perspex contraption as far as i’m aware.
Comment by jonbirch — March 14, 2008 @ 11:16 am
Crossing the streams like in Ghostbusters
. We both typed together and pressed send at roughly the same time…
Just like now
Comment by Robb — March 14, 2008 @ 11:21 am
Comment by Robb — March 14, 2008 @ 11:21 am
hey richard m. i think ‘crossing streams’ means you’re posting at the same time as each other.
i think the only way of confronting the issue is for all parties concerned to have a massive fist fight. if the musicians win then you get to strap the complainers in to their pews and play at them until their ears pack up. however, if the complainers win you are within your rights to ignore them… no one likes a misery.
go for it robb… plug it in and turn it all the way up to 11!
maybe rather than drums in a worship band, the drummer could fasten together complaining members fof the congregation. you’ll find out how hollow they are by the note you get out of them when hit with a drumstick!
Comment by jonbirch — March 14, 2008 @ 11:26 am
see richard… me and robb just crossed streams.
i used to cross streams in the urinals at school with my friends… you’re not allowed to stuff like that when you’re an adult. growwing up is a disappointment.
Comment by jonbirch — March 14, 2008 @ 11:28 am
You guys make me laugh so much! Love it.
Comment by Richard M. — March 14, 2008 @ 11:32 am
but richard, this a very serious issue.
Comment by jonbirch — March 14, 2008 @ 11:35 am
I know!!! Formaldehyde will do my eczema no good at all!
Comment by Richard M. — March 14, 2008 @ 11:36 am
Hey Robb. You need some proper valves mate.
Comment by steve — March 14, 2008 @ 11:51 am
the drummer could fasten together complaining members fof the congregation. you’ll find out how hollow they are by the note you get out of them when hit with a drumstick
The amazing Marvin Suggs and his Muppaphone!!
Comment by Robb — March 14, 2008 @ 11:51 am
Richard M. Nothing beats sitting on my 110 while playing. In fact I think I will got get it out now….
Comment by steve — March 14, 2008 @ 11:57 am
Here’s the history….
Park G10 (well I was only a kid)
Marshall Valvestate V80
JCM 900
JCM 2000 TSL 100
Thought I would live and die a Marshall man with a Les Paul. Saw a demo of the HD147 and thought – wow that is versatile.
When I contemplated buying one I was given a catalogue and found the next page had the Vetta II. I just had to see one for real. It was amazing. I refused to get rid of the Marshall so it lived in the spare room next to the Vetta. After 1.5 years it hadn’t been plugged in so I traded it in against another guitar.
I can’t believe how good a sound it gets. At the press of a button I can go from Eddie Van Halen to Brian May and then press another button and drop on to an acoustic guitar, with a capo on… And when I want to play for myself instead of for other people, I can whack a virtual Marshall Silver Jubilee head on it, pick up the Les Paul and play until my hearts content
Comment by Robb — March 14, 2008 @ 11:59 am
GAS attack! Run for your lives…
Comment by steve — March 14, 2008 @ 12:04 pm
Oooh well, if we’re talking gear, I use a Jalapeno ‘bug’ kit (handbuilt to order – very lovely) and a bunch of sabian and zildjian cymbals, and a Roland SPD-S sampling pad. I would be interested in getting hold of a Muppaphone though.
Comment by Richard M. — March 14, 2008 @ 12:10 pm
Richard. The Jalapeno stuff looks nice. You sound like a serious player.
Bit of a part time skinflint me. I have a Peavey Classic 120/TBraxx (Ampeg killer) and a homemade 110 (fancy a 410), a Warwick 12 combo (nice and light), Tanglewood 5 and one of those funny looking Ashbory rubber band thingys with non-talc strings.
Check out my Ashbory string tree!
http://picasaweb.google.com/ttoclihc/AshboryStringTree?authkey=NElLA9gYK3s
Comment by steve — March 14, 2008 @ 12:28 pm
Sorry guys. Well off topic….
Comment by steve — March 14, 2008 @ 12:36 pm
Marshall MG100DFX
‘98 Gibson Les Paul DC Standard.
Comment by Jaybrams — March 14, 2008 @ 12:39 pm
Hey, you got any performances to share?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CFTsha80dg
Thats me over on the right around 00.59 looking like I have no clue whats going on….
Comment by steve — March 14, 2008 @ 12:50 pm
BTW thats not my church.
Comment by steve — March 14, 2008 @ 12:52 pm
Have just sold the 5 string Bass Collection that’s been with me for the last 12 years
But on the up side, it’s been replace with a Warwick Thumb 5 string which is even nicer!
Played through a Trace Elliot stack.
And you’re right – there can NEVER be too much bass!!!
Comment by doctor ruth — March 14, 2008 @ 1:15 pm
But back on topic -
There are occasionally times where you have to tell someone something difficult, and this is really hard (or at least, it should be hard! If you enjoy it then you probably shouldn’t be saying it!).
I’m not sure there is any easy way of giving even the most constructive criticism – people, particularly in churches, can be so defensive. Like when you have a choir of 4 people who can’t really sing…
Comment by doctor ruth — March 14, 2008 @ 1:18 pm
hmmmm… dr r. sounds like you’re talking from recent experience.
Comment by jonbirch — March 14, 2008 @ 1:22 pm
steve… just seen your clip… that really IS you on bass… you sly old dog… where was this footage taken?
Comment by jonbirch — March 14, 2008 @ 1:26 pm
I think the phrase “I’m telling you this in love…” is often used to give license to be offensive. I know that when I have something difficult to say, it is to those close to me who I have a relationship with. People who I can have a proper conversation with. Conversations that start “Can we get a coffee…” and continue with dialogue and questions and discussion and thought and allowing people to make their own mind up. Who the hell am I to just make a judgement and prescribe a remedy?
Oooooo, I think I just hit a key word here. Judgement. That is what the phrase “in love” tends to mean – ‘I have weighed you and found you wanting’.
Comment by Robb — March 14, 2008 @ 1:47 pm
Talk about topical! Just last night I was working with someone who had just come from a long day at work. As they sat in my office before preparing for a meeting I was faced with a very difficult decision, do i let them just go on or do I tactfully ‘in love’ point out that they really could use some deodorant? I chose the latter, I have the kind of relationship with that person where I can say that. This person has on occasion tactfully offered be a piece of gum… There is a place for speaking truth in love. problem is much of the time the ‘truth’ part is really just opinion and the ‘love’ part is often totally absent.
Comment by Tom C — March 14, 2008 @ 1:56 pm
Hi John.
Cant remember exactly. Somewhere up north at a hardcore rave. My mate (Jon Doe – CLSM) was PAing (and fancied a 4O year old bass player on the stage. The guy “on the mic” with 69 on his back used to be part of the KLF, apparently.
Comment by steve — March 14, 2008 @ 2:01 pm
Dr Ruth, I’m in a similar predicament with the worship band at my church.
I sing and drum, there’s an “organist”, a “worship leader” who sings and plays guitar – badly, two old dears that have been singing since before I was born… a violinist, and our saving grace, my extremely talented friend, D, who plays guitar brilliantly, and sings (when there is a spare mic available).
He went to music college. Why they don’t realise that HE should be the worship leader I don’t know!
Comment by Caz — March 14, 2008 @ 2:23 pm
Caz, we have the age old dilema in just about every church in the country. There are faithful people who have ben doing what they can since before we were born. They started off as a weaker member of strong choir or as occasional organist for one song in the evening. As time has passed they have been bumped up into the position of having to do all playing/singing in all services. The leader is often the person who has no experience as a musician who ends up leading everything.
When it comes to “the band”, invariably it is someone who has no experience of working in a band who is the one who has wrestled control. I can’t number the grains of sand I have seen who have decided that they want to be up front so they buy an acoustic guitar. They are the “worship leader” and everyone must follow them. Concepts such as tempo, beat and melody be damned. I am the leader, Bwahahahahahahaaaaaaa!
A good friend of ours is a sound engineer. He heads up a recording studio. He spent his life learning a variety of instruments (drums are his main but also guitar and piano and a load of other stuff). In his church he isn’t allowed to play. Insecurities of the guy who insists that he is the worship leader – who can’t play.
People sometimes want to grab as much power as they can through music.
What is amazing is that everyone seems to realise this. When a minister talks to you they always really appreciate the faithful service that has been done by those who have had it fall at their feet. They always appreciate the time and effort that has been put in by the few. They never know what to do about that person who has appointed themselves as Lord and Master of the rota.
I try to keep out of it. Ruth is much better at diplomacy.
Comment by Robb — March 14, 2008 @ 2:45 pm
My wife is putting together a drama production with our Youth. She’s involving them in writing, performing, producing, every aspect of the thing. This week she had to tell two teenage girls that while she’d love to have them involved they wouldn’t be ‘in’ the play cos they flat out can’t act. never an easy thing to do but done with love and sensitivity it can be a constructive moment in a young person’s life. Done too bluntly and you can do real damage.
Comment by Tom C — March 14, 2008 @ 2:46 pm
Caz – I can’t begin to imagine how upsetting that situation must be. I think one problem is ego – people can’t take criticism nor do they like entertaining the idea that there are musicians who can do what they do a lot better than them, so they feel insecure. So they become power grabbing. It’s awful. It’s sort of like what they do has become who they are, so when what they do is ‘threatened’, they get defensive. Public ministry is no place to work out issues though – it hurts so many people.
Comment by Richard M. — March 14, 2008 @ 2:54 pm
Richard – much more succinctly put!!
Comment by Robb — March 14, 2008 @ 3:01 pm
the phenomena of church – oppress the gifted, bore the youthful, and ask people to show love in a prickly hot house.
actually I think church is potentially powerful place to be and a direct source of God’s healing, it’s just that,
as Jon’s highlighted with these cartoons, there’s so much scope for abuse in a community of faith.
it’s my belief that the key to a real sense of community is an ability to accept and listen to each other. – imagine a church leadership committed to making sure every one knows they are heard and their different needs responded to, and who find concrete ways for people to experience this.
Comment by su — March 14, 2008 @ 3:03 pm
Back on topic
11. In my experience when someone says he has an obligation to ‘confront in love’ they tend to “justify” this by reciting verses from either Proverbs or the letters of Paul. Apparently the fact that we are both baptized and thus part of this global brotherhood gives them the “right” to have a familial relationship with me — even though we don’t attend the same church and at best only interact occasionally at say church type events or even online.
40. Agreed – I fell into a trap last summer where I thought I was friends enough to offer a corrective (and I was right – they were posting pictures of themselves that could have gotten them fired from their church positions). It blew up in my face – I see in hindsight that they are in a holy hipster mode and have surrounded themselves with others of the same mindset. I “wish” they had a community that could help guide them but like anyone engaged in acting out behavior, they don’t see the need to stop — and as I’ve learned the hard way, I don’t think you can do people in this state for them except pray (while keeping the prayers to yourself). As I’ve learned the hard way, intervening when someone is engaged in acting out behavior always backfires.
Comment by becky — March 14, 2008 @ 3:09 pm
Is that possible in a church larger than say 40 or 50 people?
Comment by Richard M. — March 14, 2008 @ 3:10 pm
(previous comment regarding Su – sorry for being unclear)
Comment by Richard M. — March 14, 2008 @ 3:11 pm
Richard M. which bit are your wondering is possible? – “I think church is potentially powerful place to be and a direct source of God’s healing,” I believe this because I believe God gave us church for a reason, not sure it matters how many people.
Comment by subo — March 14, 2008 @ 3:14 pm
Su, I think that is a fine line. When do the people who are oppressing stop being the people who need encouraging to grow and when do the people we encourage to grow become the oppressors?
I wonder if the age old Yorkshire phrase is important here.
Theres them that know, them that don’t know and them that don’t know that they don’t know.
The times I have seen someone tell my sound engineer friend about tempo – and him just very graciously take it. I was once in a band with a professional organist who slummed it with us to do some honky tonk piano once a month. He was the most mild mannered man in the world – about my dads age. He would play organ for various things (non church – graduations and recitals and the like) to the point where he had a very nice house. When the song fell apart for the third time the choir mistress told us that the band (with good drummer) were going out of time. He slammed his fist down and dressed her down. I’ve never seen him so much as correct her. 10 years of being treated like he was brain dead came gushing out with the words “NO, You and wrong it is you who is going out of time. It is a synopated rhythm and you are singing it straight!!”
I’m not sure it was the most diplomatic but it was so uncharacteristic he got away with it
Sorry, I seem to have gone off on one…
Comment by Robb — March 14, 2008 @ 3:19 pm
It IS possible Richard. It’s not easy and it requires great wisdom from leadership to see the changing needs of a growing church. but as someone who works at a church of over 2000 where that sense of community is happening and flourishing, i can assure you that it may be rare. but it IS possible.
Comment by Tom C — March 14, 2008 @ 3:22 pm
Subo – I was on about community and everyone having the chance to have a go. I fully endorse what you say about church per se.
Tom C – That’s great. I suppose though that the relational dynamic would change in a larger congregation? E.g. not everyone would know everyone and there would be space for people to remain anonymous?
Comment by Richard M. — March 14, 2008 @ 3:36 pm
Love that story Robb!
Comment by Richard M. — March 14, 2008 @ 3:37 pm
Tom hit the nail on the head – Where I’ve seen a real community flourish and happen in a church or other religious community, it’s been when there was mature and sound leadership that set the example for others to follow.
The examples I referenced in 52 came from self-appointed “church leaders” in the US emergent church. (I use that term because it seems that anyone can set up a blog and call themselves a pastor). In both these cases, there isn’t any real peer-to-peer support that can help guide and mold these holy hipsters into real leaders. (It’s akin to an alcoholic relying on his bar buddies to sober up.)
And it’s up to me to seek out those leaders – in my fallen state, I can get so easily sucked into the gossip mode that it’s unreal.
Comment by becky — March 14, 2008 @ 3:44 pm
In case it wasn’t clear – I meant it’s up to me to seek out the mature and sound leaders not the holy hipsters types that are more concerned with being cool than Christ-like.
Sounds like high school redux. 
Comment by becky — March 14, 2008 @ 3:46 pm
I too am a sound engineer (all though I stepped down for a year to focus on my degree and other service stuff), the best examples I’ve had is the worship leader who was half deaf and then complained the fold-back was never loud enough, even though it deafened everyone else! And the old ladies who sat at the very front, as close to the band and the main speaker as was physically possible, and then complained it was too loud!
Back on topic, this is a difficult area, I often find the following, especially when someone is engaged in destructive behaviour, happens:
a) The people who have the love, subtlety, courage and genuine desire to help don’t have the influence to do so, or are clueless about whats going on.
b) The people with the influence don’t care or are afraid to say anything.
c) The people who take pleasure in ‘telling the truth in (absolutely no) love (whatsoever)’ end up saying something and nothing constructive comes out of it!
At least that’s been my experience, I’m not sure if you guys have found the same?
Comment by DrNick — March 14, 2008 @ 5:55 pm
Sometimes the I have found that for the a) people any conflict makes their ears bleed. They don’t have it in their heart to be mean.
Comment by becky — March 14, 2008 @ 6:47 pm
Sorry hit sent by accident – pardon the grammar. I’m cynical enough that I need a few a) people in my life to remind me that there is goodness where sometimes I can’t see it. Sometimes these people are clueless but what I’ve also seen in some religious leaders with these traits is that they want to affirm anyone. While this is noble, if left unchecked, they allow for some very dysfunctional situations to take place by say allowing someone to remain in a church leadership position even though said person makes everyone else run for the hills.
2) I have found religous leaders with “influence” are often focused on their own mission and unless they have a community around them to hold them in check, they can very easily develop myopia. (There are some who are just self-absorbed of course but I find the myopic type much more prevalent.)
As fare as 3) I find that if you get to sit down and talk to the gossip, you’ll find out pretty quickly that they have been deeply wounded and they feed this wound by bringing others down to their level. When I engage in snippy type gossip, it’s out of anger – someone I care about has wounded me and I want to hit back. The two incidents I’ve referenced were with people I once thought were my “friends” and I treated them as such until it was clear they weren’t.
Comment by becky — March 14, 2008 @ 7:06 pm
Truth, if it IS truth, keeps us from deluding ourselves and so is always on our side – whether pleasant or unpleasant. So love will tell the truth – if it IS love
Love at its best makes no demands on us. “You have to change your behaviour towards me so that I will feel better and if you don’t I will punish myself by feeling bad and you too for making me act in this crazy way”. No – love doesn’t NEED a positive response.
Comment by Chris F — March 14, 2008 @ 7:44 pm
‘they have been deeply wounded.’ so true.
‘love doesn’t NEED a positive response.’ nice one.
off to play five-a-side now. i’m going to be rubbish, i can tell.
formula 1 starts in the small hours tonight… so the year properly begins now. hurrah!
Comment by jonbirch — March 14, 2008 @ 8:16 pm
John just thought I need to tell you the truth in love – I enjoy reading ASBO Jesus
Comment by Susan — March 14, 2008 @ 8:16 pm
linking back the prayer one yesterday…. how about when someone interrupts and prays over your band rehearsal to ’stop satan attacking’ with the ’screechy vocals’… do you think he was trying to tell me something?
Speaking the truth in prayer maybe? Hmmm
Comment by amywatson — March 14, 2008 @ 8:36 pm
ermmmmmmmmmm……….no
Comment by Robb — March 14, 2008 @ 11:47 pm
susan… to answer you in truth and love… thank you.
amy… hmmmmm… i feel damned if i comment damned if i don’t… but i think i’ll go with robbs response… frankly that’s a crappy, ridiculous and very strange way to approach anything… is said person on medication?
Comment by jonbirch — March 15, 2008 @ 12:13 am
Comment by Robb — March 15, 2008 @ 12:20 am
well robb… pomposity is annoying isn’t it!? bullying by prayer… whatever next!?
Comment by jonbirch — March 15, 2008 @ 12:32 am
And then some!!
Bullying by prayer 4 me is a bit pants!! Erm – let me pray for you *and cower before me*!! Erm…. problem is that this is the area where we are vunerable!!!
Comment by Robb — March 15, 2008 @ 12:39 am
True Robb – Bullying by prayer is definately pants!
Comment by Laura — March 15, 2008 @ 3:12 am
wow, so much on this blog since I last visited. some of you write from being in the thick of it, and working really hard to build growing communities, so really I should shut up – as I don’t do anything so worthy.
I do still believe though, that it is our ability to listen and empathise with each other that builds community, and that this takes time, skill and experience.
Comment by subo — March 15, 2008 @ 9:20 am
While we all need friends to get alongside us and tell us like it is
- I can’t think of anyone who needs a friend who talks about “truth in love”.
And if I said “thanks” as a reply -I hope another someone would shake me.
Coffee!…..this hit a chord somewhere.
Comment by gilly — March 17, 2008 @ 11:07 am
i’m with you gilly.
Comment by jonbirch — March 17, 2008 @ 11:44 am
So you’ve met our associate vicar then??
Comment by Sandra Driver — March 25, 2008 @ 11:32 pm
sandra… oh dear.
Comment by jonbirch — March 26, 2008 @ 12:39 am