I’m in charge of the technical team at our church and it has been found that the old people sit in one of the best areas acoustically – our auditorium has some REALLY bad areas (lots of echo)
fog horns that they used to use for warning ships of rocky seas in heavy fog had a deep baritone blast. this was because it was thought that bass travelled further. it’s now been tested and is indeed true. bass is supreme.
It has to be the right kind of bass tho. And if unless you are going through the mains (and the engineer knows what he is doing) will typically need to be too loud for the band (except the drummer).
As a staff team, we ended up talking about this yesterday. It definately happens in our church! Not just in terms of the sound in services, but in what is going on for the different generations that meet.
We were struck by how much of a consumerist attitude it is – and challanged by the realisation that we encourage this without realising so at times.
I wonder how many old people were stood at the back of the crowd complaining that they couldn’t hear properly when Jesus gave the Beatitudes? Unless of course Jesus had a deep baritone voice!?
Some guy came up to me at the end of church service and said ‘It’s too loud’, so I asked him ‘for what?’ He looked astonished, because for decades before his argument only had to go as far as the complaint and nervous leaders would react out of fear of offending anyone. The best answer he could give after a long period of ‘well, you know, I, uh, well it’s, uh…’ was that he coudn’t hear himself sing. I then asked him (with as much grace as I could muster) what was so good good about his voice that he should be heard over everyone else? If he’s a good singer, then why doesn’t he serve on the music team – otherwise why shouldn’t he grateful?
The simple fact is that if you’re pleasing someone you’re upsetting someone else, unless your congregation is full of clones. The only way to upset nobody is to please nobody – welcome, ladies and gentlemen to MOR-soft-pop-rock worship songs.
Let’s stir up some sensibilities – give people a platform where they can use their God given ‘voice’ (music, drama, creative thinking, academics, debate, sculpture, technical, preaching, cleaning – whatever) in worshipful response to God – and let NOBODY complain about it being too loud.
How deeply uninspiring.
i’m feeling bad now. i like old people. i’ll be one soon. given that a normal early sunday evening is time team followed by antiques road show followed by larkrise to candleford, maybe i already am. and if i get to be old i hope to be charming, yet naughty and slightly grumpy. when i was a kid, sometimes the loudest thing in church was the sound of the elderly complaining they couldn’t hear. one day (think i blogged this somewhere else) my uncle and i roped off the back few pews. from the reaction we got you’d have thought we’d cut their pensions. many old people love to join in with the younger ones… they just need a way in… i guess young people culture and their varying types of loud music can be quite daunting to the older ear.
i did these cartoons because they made me laugh… now i’m actually feeling quite sorry for the loves. what generation in history has had to go through the amount of change they have in their lives?… they get to church and… what do you know?.. more change, more discomfort. i already long for the lack of traffic that i remember from my youth.
richard m is right though… mor=pap.
When I worked for a church I often heard it said that people didn’t like change in church because there’s too much of it elsewhere – that in some ways church is a haven for those who dislike change. I agree that we should be ‘all things to all people in order that we might save some’, but at the particular church I worked for, the ‘3rd age’ members of the congregation were not new Christians by any means – they had been Christians for a LOT of decades, yet these ‘mature’ Christians wanted ‘immature’ Christians to conform to their way of thinking regarding church life, rather than the other way around, and something seems a bit backward about the new or ‘immature’ Christians having to do all the running.
On a positive note though, when I was at bible college, a friend of mine visited my home church and said that it was obviously a Spirit-filled bunch of people. He could tell by ‘the quality of the old people’. I guess the spiritual strength of a church community is indeed best measured by those who’ve been there the longest – have they thrived, or have they shrivelled?
“I wonder how many old people were stood at the back of the crowd complaining that they couldn’t hear properly when Jesus gave the Beatitudes? Unless of course Jesus had a deep baritone voice!?”
I used to produce our church’s humble news sheet. We’d been through a tough time and I felt we ought to promote the idea of a community and also a spirit of levity wouldn’t go amiss. In a parish survey, most liked the new approach. One person said it was ‘flippant and inappropriate’. That is, of course, the one comment I remembered. This is probably the same person who wrote to the priest to say they were ‘very angry’ (to be read through gritted teeth!) that I used the word ‘Chrimbo’ in the sheet. Well I didn’t know it was anti-Christian, I just thought it was an abbreviation! I’m surprised I wasn’t ex-comunicated! My private reaction? Grumpy old git. Fact is, I don’t know, we have plenty who are old before their time. That said, I know some very dear, lovely, kind and inspirational people in our church with lively intellects who are in their 70s (minimum). They certainly challenge me (then that’s not difficult!) In terms of spirituality I think Richard Rohr said when we grow old we become pathetic old fools, angry old fools or holy old fools. We all become fools, the only negotiable is if we become angry, pathetic or holy. I think I’ve got the fool bit sorted anyway!
Richard M., coming from a church where we’ve never actually achieved the lofty heights of ‘MOR-soft-pop-rock worship songs’ since even accoustic guitars are frowned upon, I’m intrigued to know what we ought to be aspiring to. Here’s a challenge for you and anyone who has an opinion: gimme your programme for an Easter Sunday morning service.
Hiya Carole,
in my opinion, what we should be aspiring to is a genuine heartfelt response of ‘indiginous’ worship. Let the musicians play, let the poets recite, let the orators speak, let the academics research, let everyone do what they can to the best of their ability to edify their brothers and sisters, communicate to the world and glorify God.
Do we do that? Nowhere near. However, if we aim for the stars we’ll at least get the mountain tops! I’ve not been involved in our Easter Morning service, but I’ve been part of planning Good friday meditations. We’ve had artists and poets and composers all working together for the service – it should be fun and more importantly, really profound. It’s a long journey, but everytime it’s done well, we gain the trust of those who are nervous of change.
I’ve been in churches where what people are aiming for in worship is a nice, inoffensive, anodyne ritual (and that can be anything from ‘bells’n’smells’ to rock-band worship – anything that is a default setting), rather than a real, organic, genuine expression of love, gratitude and community through the gifts (as varied as they are) that God has given us all.
Yeah, Richard, I am totally in agreement with that vision and its aims. I have always found, that especially in a ‘traditional’ church setup, you run up against the opposition of those who view church as something that happens for an hour on Sunday within a certain building. Worship is saying prayers and singing songs. In some cases, it is simply being a spectator to other people saying prayers and singing songs. As long as they’ve got themselves through the door they have had their attendance card stamped. Spontaneity and creativity are anathema to such people. They seek the comfort of the familiar. Then again, some may be very low key on a Sunday but do wondrous things the rest of the time. Have you ever asked people what their gifts are? Usually the response is “I don’t think I’ve got any.” Aaagh!!! The ingrats! Where does humility end and denial begin? You are so right. It is a long journey!
I know exactly what you mean. People need to realise that their gift, their ‘thing’ is not necessarily the same as someone else’s – but that’s ok! If everyone was a preacher, who’d actually do the listening?
I’ve got a favourite little quote of G K Chesterton that you might find funny:
“The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected.”
How very, very true.
Anyway, I’m off to start my Easter break (or rather to start running around like a headless chicken at Church rather than at work) so speak to y’all soon.
Godbless you! May this Easter be a time of real profundity and may the Holy Spirit rest on each of you in a tangible, edifying, positive way.
increasing frustration at church culture which played music we’d never listen to at home, used language we wouldn’t use anywhere else and sever up a diet that had become over familiar and often irrelevant. Church had become something that was “done to us”
From Dan Kimball’s book, quoted in the dissertation but probably spoken by one of you guys to him [as it is about Grace].
I have to admit, I have only seen Rock Band worship three times. I played in the band two of those times. I have seen plenty of ‘worship music’ though… Perhaps when I think ‘Rock’ I think a different thing though. I am so metal I bleed darkness…
sometimes the loudest thing in church was the sound of the elderly complaining they couldn’t hear.
I once heard “the elderly*” complain that they couldn’t hear and that everything was too loud. Later they went on to complain that the church shouldn’t spend any money on the PA. Also that they couldn’t read the screen, or hymn boojs. Wasn’t it better in the good old days?
*don’t we sometimes use this term in an all encompassing manner as though it is the viewpoint of a political party. I guess this is why my comment is so ironic.
Let the musicians play, let the poets recite, let the orators speak, let the academics research, let everyone do what they can to the best of their ability to edify their brothers and sisters, communicate to the world and glorify God
I am sure some guy mentioned this 2000 years ago.
And you can stop me saying chrimbo when you prise it from my cold dead lips
I suspect the actual culprit is a result of our service oriented culture and the high standards set by everything we hear elsewhere.
The quality of music we get from our iPods, hear on the TV and at live shows is remarkable (when was the last time you bought or heard something that was not deliberately out of tune). Singers who cant sing are tuned automatically, musicians who fluff their phrasing are overdubbed, everything is compressed so you can hear it. Most recordings have the luxury of a least a year to get all this right. Anyone with a modicum of skill can produce a reasonable 3 minute song on their PC at minimal expense without touching an instrument.
In every other area of our lives we are encouraged to complain about service, return products, ask for our money back and even find things to sue for.
I reckon the challenge for musicians/singers in church is not to please everyone but to manage each others expectations. We are real people with limited skills (and day jobs) playing real (usually cheap) instruments using real voices and its not for your entertainment. Its for the glory of God.
Well, Ben, I used to be under the misapprehension that it was an affectionate term for Christmas-a kind of pet name, if you like. So when a former priest of our parish moved parishes and I was asked to publish his new address, I wrote something to the effect, “So if you want to update your Chrimbo card list with Fr X’s new address…” But I get the impression it is an even more heinous crime than Xmas. A grossly insulting term coined by particularly unimaginative atheists to upset Christians by taking the ‘Christ’ out of Christmas. Sometimes, when I’m feeling particularly mischievous, I say it within earshot of likely suspects to test reactions. That’s just the kind of crazy maverick I am! (yeah, I know, I’m on course for ‘pathetic old fooldom’
I suspect that it is the former rather than the latter Carole. I also suspect that the person complaining was a rather inimaginative Christian who came up with the other idea.
It amazes me that people can poop the party in such a spectacular style. Have you ever been to Dial the Truth Ministries and been chastised for using barcodes? Actually, you commit a much more nefarious crime – being a Papist
I love it! We always laugh / moan about the back row dwellers at our church.
I think we always think of the old people as the moaners (‘I can’t hear it’), but as the cartoon says, we ALL love a good moan (‘why do old people…’)
Genius.
Have been looking on here for months, some of them have been great!
cool aims richard m. for some though, the default setting can be very meaningful. i like your take however and it seems thoroughly biblical to me, although i’m no expert. ooh, and have a great easter!
carole 18… that’s the same sort who complain about xmas as a word… and yet ‘x’ has always been a symbol for christ… well for the best part of 2000 years as far as i’m aware.
At the moment? I am currently listening to a lot of cheesy rock so that I can learn it for the band.
I am listening to velvet revolvers new album because I am going to see them next week…
I just looked at ‘my music’ and I seem to like a lot of bands that start with ‘the’.
When I was at university we had a friend who always professed to be ‘true metal’ because he liked bands like Sepultura and I prefer listening to people who can sing. It was at that point that we all started to come up with phrases that made us out to be “truer metal” than him.
The best worship song I have ever led in a church service? Bring me to life by Evanescence. Whack the guitar into drop D and off we go!!
But the bishop nearly died. I think his phrase was “I’m glad that I witnessed it even though it isn’t my kind of thing”.
On my last day at a church I was locum minister at for a year, the back row (the “old” people) – I use the inverted commas in case they read this! – sat in the front row as a one off, as a treat for me. I have photographic evidence.
At our church we have two Sunday morning services, one more traditional, one more modern. Does that keep ‘em all happy? Nope.
Is music the thing that causes most moans? Probably.
” a real, organic, genuine expression of love, gratitude and community through the gifts (as varied as they are) that God has given us all. ”
it’s just great when you get that sense of courage, to get stuck in, I used to go to a bible study led by this vicar who had no fear of letting the group read the text and respond to it, nothing seemed to worry him, he also took me through confirmation and used this opportunity to passionately expound on the love God has for us.
The big problem is..
it was the old people who wrote down the beatitudes..
and Jesus did say the freaks will inherit the earth!
The church building I go to for services has one broken PA speaker
which happens to be where the old moaning people sit and I’m yet to work out if this is why they moan or not LOL.
;]
Comment by kick-hat-snare — March 20, 2008 @ 11:19 pm
No no, the freaks will inherit the mirth. We are fond of the sillyness!!
Gilly you are so right. For many years I got great mileage out of saying things like, “Eek! He must be about 40. Halfway through the 30s it became, “Blimey he must be 50 if he’s a day!” Now I’m neatly ensconced halfway between 40 & 50 I don’t know what to say to place a gaping chasm between me and the oldies. I just keep on catching up with my own insult!
Jon – you will never be an old fart – Mike Yaconelli was in his ’60s when he died and yet he always had a childlike sense of wonderment about them.
Conversely, I have met even young adults who act like the women in this cartoon – they are very resistant to change and suck in their ways way before their time.
I have often wondered when it happens. Our vicar tells me that she used to be into heavy metal when she was younger. I wonder at what point my mother stopped screaming at the Beatles and keeping the gloves she was wearing when she touched John Lennon and started listening to Brahms third racket…
I remember after playing the evanescence song the presider saying “all these years I didn’t realise I was speaking two completely different languages, one in my daily life and one in church”.
Rob – in talking with my friends we agreed that around 25, the goofy antics (especially if they involved alcohol or drugs) just aren’t funny anymore. What’s sad is watching people in their mid-thirties and above still trying to look hip — the end result always looks sad and pathetic. Having said that, I do wax nostalgic a bit when I hear a song on the oldies radio station that was a seminal song during my youth – though I hate it when said song ends up as the theme for a car commercial.
It is interesting to see how this music will transcend down to future generations – my efforts to introduce to my niece and nephew to the Clash were unsuccessful – they are into bands that are punk rock in nature but they consider the Clash and even Green Day to be yesterday’s news. And if I put on a Beatles or even a Rolling Stones song, they will run screaming from the room.
Richard #9: I don’t like the practice of turning the music up loud enough that only those on the stage can be heard. It makes the cong an audience instead of participants, and says “it doesn’t matter if you sing or not, all you will hear is us”. Doesn’t need to be “acoustic”, but it’s better if you can hear the people rather than just the music team.
There’s more funny things about the places people sit in church – some people sit in the same spot every week, and often no one wants to sit in the front row.
Eric #62 “often no one wants to sit in the front row”
A church I served in a long time ago (during their vacancy) had only a small congregation with a much-too-big building. They ALL lurked at the back. After a number of months I got fed up and said “If you don’t get a bit nearer me then next week I’ll pick up this lectern, carry it half way up the aisle and preach from there”. I would have done, no probs. The next week? Well, they weren’t exactly in the front row but I reckon they were certainly in the middle! Probably worried what that mad wumman would do if they weren’t…
“There’s more funny things about the places people sit in church – some people sit in the same spot every week, and often no one wants to sit in the front row.”
its true for my church. i think ive sat in the same row the last 5 times or watever.
plus i agree with not being able to head the congregation eric. i dont care how bad people sound, id rather hear the whole congregation than just hear the lead musicians.
Ha ha ha ha ha!
This is my church!
Comment by B. — March 20, 2008 @ 1:21 am
I’m in charge of the technical team at our church and it has been found that the old people sit in one of the best areas acoustically – our auditorium has some REALLY bad areas (lots of echo)
Comment by Bruce — March 20, 2008 @ 1:55 am
It is everyones church!!
Bass is omnidirectional! Trebble.. now there’s the trouble!!
Comment by Robb — March 20, 2008 @ 1:55 am
fog horns that they used to use for warning ships of rocky seas in heavy fog had a deep baritone blast. this was because it was thought that bass travelled further. it’s now been tested and is indeed true. bass is supreme.
Comment by jonbirch — March 20, 2008 @ 2:27 am
It has to be the right kind of bass tho. And if unless you are going through the mains (and the engineer knows what he is doing) will typically need to be too loud for the band (except the drummer).
Comment by steve — March 20, 2008 @ 4:22 am
As a staff team, we ended up talking about this yesterday. It definately happens in our church! Not just in terms of the sound in services, but in what is going on for the different generations that meet.
We were struck by how much of a consumerist attitude it is – and challanged by the realisation that we encourage this without realising so at times.
Comment by sara — March 20, 2008 @ 7:32 am
Why do old people come? oops did I really say that.
Comment by dennis coburn — March 20, 2008 @ 8:11 am
I wonder how many old people were stood at the back of the crowd complaining that they couldn’t hear properly when Jesus gave the Beatitudes? Unless of course Jesus had a deep baritone voice!?
Comment by marcus — March 20, 2008 @ 8:17 am
Some guy came up to me at the end of church service and said ‘It’s too loud’, so I asked him ‘for what?’ He looked astonished, because for decades before his argument only had to go as far as the complaint and nervous leaders would react out of fear of offending anyone. The best answer he could give after a long period of ‘well, you know, I, uh, well it’s, uh…’ was that he coudn’t hear himself sing. I then asked him (with as much grace as I could muster) what was so good good about his voice that he should be heard over everyone else? If he’s a good singer, then why doesn’t he serve on the music team – otherwise why shouldn’t he grateful?
The simple fact is that if you’re pleasing someone you’re upsetting someone else, unless your congregation is full of clones. The only way to upset nobody is to please nobody – welcome, ladies and gentlemen to MOR-soft-pop-rock worship songs.
Let’s stir up some sensibilities – give people a platform where they can use their God given ‘voice’ (music, drama, creative thinking, academics, debate, sculpture, technical, preaching, cleaning – whatever) in worshipful response to God – and let NOBODY complain about it being too loud.
How deeply uninspiring.
Comment by Richard M. — March 20, 2008 @ 8:38 am
Hahahah @ Marcus!
Comment by Caz — March 20, 2008 @ 8:44 am
MOR = uninspiring – sorry for being unclear there!
Comment by Richard M. — March 20, 2008 @ 8:54 am
i’m feeling bad now. i like old people. i’ll be one soon. given that a normal early sunday evening is time team followed by antiques road show followed by larkrise to candleford, maybe i already am. and if i get to be old i hope to be charming, yet naughty and slightly grumpy. when i was a kid, sometimes the loudest thing in church was the sound of the elderly complaining they couldn’t hear. one day (think i blogged this somewhere else) my uncle and i roped off the back few pews. from the reaction we got you’d have thought we’d cut their pensions. many old people love to join in with the younger ones… they just need a way in… i guess young people culture and their varying types of loud music can be quite daunting to the older ear.
i did these cartoons because they made me laugh… now i’m actually feeling quite sorry for the loves. what generation in history has had to go through the amount of change they have in their lives?… they get to church and… what do you know?.. more change, more discomfort. i already long for the lack of traffic that i remember from my youth.
richard m is right though… mor=pap.
Comment by jonbirch — March 20, 2008 @ 9:32 am
When I worked for a church I often heard it said that people didn’t like change in church because there’s too much of it elsewhere – that in some ways church is a haven for those who dislike change. I agree that we should be ‘all things to all people in order that we might save some’, but at the particular church I worked for, the ‘3rd age’ members of the congregation were not new Christians by any means – they had been Christians for a LOT of decades, yet these ‘mature’ Christians wanted ‘immature’ Christians to conform to their way of thinking regarding church life, rather than the other way around, and something seems a bit backward about the new or ‘immature’ Christians having to do all the running.
On a positive note though, when I was at bible college, a friend of mine visited my home church and said that it was obviously a Spirit-filled bunch of people. He could tell by ‘the quality of the old people’. I guess the spiritual strength of a church community is indeed best measured by those who’ve been there the longest – have they thrived, or have they shrivelled?
Comment by Richard M. — March 20, 2008 @ 9:53 am
“I wonder how many old people were stood at the back of the crowd complaining that they couldn’t hear properly when Jesus gave the Beatitudes? Unless of course Jesus had a deep baritone voice!?”
“blessed are the cheesemakers?!”
Comment by ben — March 20, 2008 @ 9:58 am
Pardon? Can you say that again?
Comment by Susan — March 20, 2008 @ 10:03 am
HE SAID ‘BLESSED ARE THE CHEESEMAKERS’!!!
Comment by jonbirch — March 20, 2008 @ 10:06 am
‘the freaks will inherit the earth?’
Comment by Richard M. — March 20, 2008 @ 10:07 am
I used to produce our church’s humble news sheet. We’d been through a tough time and I felt we ought to promote the idea of a community and also a spirit of levity wouldn’t go amiss. In a parish survey, most liked the new approach. One person said it was ‘flippant and inappropriate’. That is, of course, the one comment I remembered. This is probably the same person who wrote to the priest to say they were ‘very angry’ (to be read through gritted teeth!) that I used the word ‘Chrimbo’ in the sheet. Well I didn’t know it was anti-Christian, I just thought it was an abbreviation! I’m surprised I wasn’t ex-comunicated! My private reaction? Grumpy old git. Fact is, I don’t know, we have plenty who are old before their time. That said, I know some very dear, lovely, kind and inspirational people in our church with lively intellects who are in their 70s (minimum). They certainly challenge me (then that’s not difficult!) In terms of spirituality I think Richard Rohr said when we grow old we become pathetic old fools, angry old fools or holy old fools. We all become fools, the only negotiable is if we become angry, pathetic or holy. I think I’ve got the fool bit sorted anyway!
Richard M., coming from a church where we’ve never actually achieved the lofty heights of ‘MOR-soft-pop-rock worship songs’ since even accoustic guitars are frowned upon, I’m intrigued to know what we ought to be aspiring to. Here’s a challenge for you and anyone who has an opinion: gimme your programme for an Easter Sunday morning service.
Comment by Carole — March 20, 2008 @ 10:27 am
the old lady in our church won’t wear her hearing aid and so 10 minutes of the sermon is spent re-adjusting the microphone for her benefit….
Comment by amywatson — March 20, 2008 @ 11:08 am
Hiya Carole,
in my opinion, what we should be aspiring to is a genuine heartfelt response of ‘indiginous’ worship. Let the musicians play, let the poets recite, let the orators speak, let the academics research, let everyone do what they can to the best of their ability to edify their brothers and sisters, communicate to the world and glorify God.
Do we do that? Nowhere near. However, if we aim for the stars we’ll at least get the mountain tops! I’ve not been involved in our Easter Morning service, but I’ve been part of planning Good friday meditations. We’ve had artists and poets and composers all working together for the service – it should be fun and more importantly, really profound. It’s a long journey, but everytime it’s done well, we gain the trust of those who are nervous of change.
I’ve been in churches where what people are aiming for in worship is a nice, inoffensive, anodyne ritual (and that can be anything from ‘bells’n’smells’ to rock-band worship – anything that is a default setting), rather than a real, organic, genuine expression of love, gratitude and community through the gifts (as varied as they are) that God has given us all.
Comment by Richard M. — March 20, 2008 @ 11:23 am
Yeah, Richard, I am totally in agreement with that vision and its aims. I have always found, that especially in a ‘traditional’ church setup, you run up against the opposition of those who view church as something that happens for an hour on Sunday within a certain building. Worship is saying prayers and singing songs. In some cases, it is simply being a spectator to other people saying prayers and singing songs. As long as they’ve got themselves through the door they have had their attendance card stamped. Spontaneity and creativity are anathema to such people. They seek the comfort of the familiar. Then again, some may be very low key on a Sunday but do wondrous things the rest of the time. Have you ever asked people what their gifts are? Usually the response is “I don’t think I’ve got any.” Aaagh!!! The ingrats! Where does humility end and denial begin? You are so right. It is a long journey!
Comment by Carole — March 20, 2008 @ 11:47 am
I know exactly what you mean. People need to realise that their gift, their ‘thing’ is not necessarily the same as someone else’s – but that’s ok! If everyone was a preacher, who’d actually do the listening?
I’ve got a favourite little quote of G K Chesterton that you might find funny:
“The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected.”
How very, very true.
Anyway, I’m off to start my Easter break (or rather to start running around like a headless chicken at Church rather than at work) so speak to y’all soon.
Godbless you! May this Easter be a time of real profundity and may the Holy Spirit rest on each of you in a tangible, edifying, positive way.
Cheerio for a week or so (probably)!
Comment by Richard M. — March 20, 2008 @ 12:01 pm
increasing frustration at church culture which played music we’d never listen to at home, used language we wouldn’t use anywhere else and sever up a diet that had become over familiar and often irrelevant. Church had become something that was “done to us”
From Dan Kimball’s book, quoted in the dissertation but probably spoken by one of you guys to him [as it is about Grace].
I have to admit, I have only seen Rock Band worship three times. I played in the band two of those times. I have seen plenty of ‘worship music’ though… Perhaps when I think ‘Rock’ I think a different thing though. I am so metal I bleed darkness…
sometimes the loudest thing in church was the sound of the elderly complaining they couldn’t hear.
I once heard “the elderly*” complain that they couldn’t hear and that everything was too loud. Later they went on to complain that the church shouldn’t spend any money on the PA. Also that they couldn’t read the screen, or hymn boojs. Wasn’t it better in the good old days?
*don’t we sometimes use this term in an all encompassing manner as though it is the viewpoint of a political party. I guess this is why my comment is so ironic.
Let the musicians play, let the poets recite, let the orators speak, let the academics research, let everyone do what they can to the best of their ability to edify their brothers and sisters, communicate to the world and glorify God
I am sure some guy mentioned this 2000 years ago.
And you can stop me saying chrimbo when you prise it from my cold dead lips
Comment by Robb — March 20, 2008 @ 12:38 pm
PS – Have a great Easter Richard and anyone else who has managed to get away for it.
Comment by Robb — March 20, 2008 @ 12:39 pm
It’s not meant to be taken literally. Obviously it refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.
Comment by Will — March 20, 2008 @ 12:40 pm
Shut up bignose!!
Comment by Robb — March 20, 2008 @ 12:42 pm
Heh.
Jon, you big bully!
Comment by zefi — March 20, 2008 @ 1:34 pm
I’m middle aged
I sit in the middle
Comment by Chris F — March 20, 2008 @ 2:10 pm
So why do the old people always sit in the front, middle and back??
Comment by Robb — March 20, 2008 @ 2:22 pm
And its not just old people complaining.
I suspect the actual culprit is a result of our service oriented culture and the high standards set by everything we hear elsewhere.
The quality of music we get from our iPods, hear on the TV and at live shows is remarkable (when was the last time you bought or heard something that was not deliberately out of tune). Singers who cant sing are tuned automatically, musicians who fluff their phrasing are overdubbed, everything is compressed so you can hear it. Most recordings have the luxury of a least a year to get all this right. Anyone with a modicum of skill can produce a reasonable 3 minute song on their PC at minimal expense without touching an instrument.
In every other area of our lives we are encouraged to complain about service, return products, ask for our money back and even find things to sue for.
I reckon the challenge for musicians/singers in church is not to please everyone but to manage each others expectations. We are real people with limited skills (and day jobs) playing real (usually cheap) instruments using real voices and its not for your entertainment. Its for the glory of God.
Comment by steve — March 20, 2008 @ 2:27 pm
what is chrimbo?
Comment by ben — March 20, 2008 @ 3:01 pm
Well, Ben, I used to be under the misapprehension that it was an affectionate term for Christmas-a kind of pet name, if you like. So when a former priest of our parish moved parishes and I was asked to publish his new address, I wrote something to the effect, “So if you want to update your Chrimbo card list with Fr X’s new address…” But I get the impression it is an even more heinous crime than Xmas. A grossly insulting term coined by particularly unimaginative atheists to upset Christians by taking the ‘Christ’ out of Christmas. Sometimes, when I’m feeling particularly mischievous, I say it within earshot of likely suspects to test reactions. That’s just the kind of crazy maverick I am!
(yeah, I know, I’m on course for ‘pathetic old fooldom’
Comment by Carole — March 20, 2008 @ 3:16 pm
I am so metal I bleed darkness…
HA! HA! HA! Worraya like, Robb? Gerrova yerself lah!
By the way, what is this reading the hymn boojs? Is it like reading the tea leaves? I don’t know, you just can’t get the old crones these days!
Comment by Carole — March 20, 2008 @ 3:44 pm
I suspect that it is the former rather than the latter Carole. I also suspect that the person complaining was a rather inimaginative Christian who came up with the other idea.
It amazes me that people can poop the party in such a spectacular style. Have you ever been to Dial the Truth Ministries and been chastised for using barcodes? Actually, you commit a much more nefarious crime – being a Papist
Comment by Robb — March 20, 2008 @ 3:44 pm
Aye Robb, but you learn to live with it!
Comment by Carole — March 20, 2008 @ 3:47 pm
reading the hymn boojs
I boojs
You boojs
Him boojs
Comment by Robb — March 20, 2008 @ 3:47 pm
I love it! We always laugh / moan about the back row dwellers at our church.
I think we always think of the old people as the moaners (‘I can’t hear it’), but as the cartoon says, we ALL love a good moan (‘why do old people…’)
Genius.
Have been looking on here for months, some of them have been great!
Comment by Richard — March 20, 2008 @ 4:08 pm
thank you richard.
Comment by jonbirch — March 20, 2008 @ 5:02 pm
cool aims richard m. for some though, the default setting can be very meaningful. i like your take however and it seems thoroughly biblical to me, although i’m no expert.
ooh, and have a great easter! 
carole 18… that’s the same sort who complain about xmas as a word… and yet ‘x’ has always been a symbol for christ… well for the best part of 2000 years as far as i’m aware.
Comment by jonbirch — March 20, 2008 @ 5:12 pm
what’s your favourite track then ‘darkman’ robb?
Comment by jonbirch — March 20, 2008 @ 5:15 pm
At the moment? I am currently listening to a lot of cheesy rock so that I can learn it for the band.
I am listening to velvet revolvers new album because I am going to see them next week…
I just looked at ‘my music’ and I seem to like a lot of bands that start with ‘the’.
When I was at university we had a friend who always professed to be ‘true metal’ because he liked bands like Sepultura and I prefer listening to people who can sing. It was at that point that we all started to come up with phrases that made us out to be “truer metal” than him.
The best worship song I have ever led in a church service? Bring me to life by Evanescence. Whack the guitar into drop D and off we go!!
But the bishop nearly died. I think his phrase was “I’m glad that I witnessed it even though it isn’t my kind of thing”.
Comment by Robb — March 20, 2008 @ 5:41 pm
Our old people sit at the back so they can natter throughout the entire service.
Love the fact the Bishop was glad… too often we don’t try things simply because they are unknown to us.
Comment by Karen — March 20, 2008 @ 5:57 pm
Fab cartoon.
On my last day at a church I was locum minister at for a year, the back row (the “old” people) – I use the inverted commas in case they read this! – sat in the front row as a one off, as a treat for me. I have photographic evidence.
At our church we have two Sunday morning services, one more traditional, one more modern. Does that keep ‘em all happy? Nope.
Is music the thing that causes most moans? Probably.
I know nothing about music. I’m a Status Quo fan.
Ax
Comment by AnneDroid — March 20, 2008 @ 6:29 pm
i saw quo once… supporting queen at knebworth. should i be admitting that?
Comment by jonbirch — March 20, 2008 @ 6:39 pm
The old people sitting at the back are gossiping and throwing paper aeroplanes!
Comment by Ros — March 20, 2008 @ 6:41 pm
#44 I knew I liked you Jon.
Comment by AnneDroid — March 20, 2008 @ 7:26 pm
Quo ? – I’ll pray for you both
Comment by Susan — March 20, 2008 @ 7:44 pm
I was looking at ticket master the other day. Quo are touring soon…
Dr Ruth has already seen them though…
(just outed her
)
She also says “you’re not metal at all, you sang Starship ‘we built this city’ on Karaoke last Friday night”. Nice to be able to count on her support
Comment by Robb — March 20, 2008 @ 7:47 pm
Yeah, all in the name of cheese research though, eh, Robb? Shall I pass the Jacobs Cream Crackers?
Comment by Carole — March 20, 2008 @ 8:37 pm
” a real, organic, genuine expression of love, gratitude and community through the gifts (as varied as they are) that God has given us all. ”
it’s just great when you get that sense of courage, to get stuck in, I used to go to a bible study led by this vicar who had no fear of letting the group read the text and respond to it, nothing seemed to worry him, he also took me through confirmation and used this opportunity to passionately expound on the love God has for us.
Comment by su — March 20, 2008 @ 9:29 pm
the new curate felt he’d need to work towards introducing the ’sharing of the peace’, he’d let it take as long as it takes
Comment by su — March 20, 2008 @ 9:30 pm
uuuum….who exactly decides when we’re middle aged?
Or when we’ve become old?
Is it one of those things that always happens to someone else?
Comment by gilly — March 20, 2008 @ 9:53 pm
haha they sit at the back cos that’s where they sat as teenagers and they’ve not moved since so they’ve forced the youthgroup to the front
Comment by Émie — March 20, 2008 @ 10:42 pm
wasn’t it the Greeks who inherit the earth…always thought the Greeks had it tough about time they got a break and inherited something…
Comment by marcus — March 20, 2008 @ 10:47 pm
The big problem is..
it was the old people who wrote down the beatitudes..
and Jesus did say the freaks will inherit the earth!
The church building I go to for services has one broken PA speaker
which happens to be where the old moaning people sit and I’m yet to work out if this is why they moan or not LOL.
;]
Comment by kick-hat-snare — March 20, 2008 @ 11:19 pm
No no, the freaks will inherit the mirth. We are fond of the sillyness!!
Comment by Robb — March 21, 2008 @ 12:09 am
Gilly you are so right. For many years I got great mileage out of saying things like, “Eek! He must be about 40. Halfway through the 30s it became, “Blimey he must be 50 if he’s a day!” Now I’m neatly ensconced halfway between 40 & 50 I don’t know what to say to place a gaping chasm between me and the oldies. I just keep on catching up with my own insult!
Comment by Carole — March 21, 2008 @ 12:19 am
Jon – you will never be an old fart – Mike Yaconelli was in his ’60s when he died and yet he always had a childlike sense of wonderment about them.
Conversely, I have met even young adults who act like the women in this cartoon – they are very resistant to change and suck in their ways way before their time.
Comment by becky — March 21, 2008 @ 3:41 am
I have often wondered when it happens. Our vicar tells me that she used to be into heavy metal when she was younger. I wonder at what point my mother stopped screaming at the Beatles and keeping the gloves she was wearing when she touched John Lennon and started listening to Brahms third racket…
I remember after playing the evanescence song the presider saying “all these years I didn’t realise I was speaking two completely different languages, one in my daily life and one in church”.
Comment by Robb — March 21, 2008 @ 1:01 pm
Rob – in talking with my friends we agreed that around 25, the goofy antics (especially if they involved alcohol or drugs) just aren’t funny anymore. What’s sad is watching people in their mid-thirties and above still trying to look hip — the end result always looks sad and pathetic. Having said that, I do wax nostalgic a bit when I hear a song on the oldies radio station that was a seminal song during my youth – though I hate it when said song ends up as the theme for a car commercial.
It is interesting to see how this music will transcend down to future generations – my efforts to introduce to my niece and nephew to the Clash were unsuccessful – they are into bands that are punk rock in nature but they consider the Clash and even Green Day to be yesterday’s news. And if I put on a Beatles or even a Rolling Stones song, they will run screaming from the room.
Comment by becky — March 21, 2008 @ 2:27 pm
Phew, goofy antics like drugs aren’t my thing. As I have never been hip I’m fine.
Comment by Robb — March 21, 2008 @ 3:13 pm
Richard #9: I don’t like the practice of turning the music up loud enough that only those on the stage can be heard. It makes the cong an audience instead of participants, and says “it doesn’t matter if you sing or not, all you will hear is us”. Doesn’t need to be “acoustic”, but it’s better if you can hear the people rather than just the music team.
There’s more funny things about the places people sit in church – some people sit in the same spot every week, and often no one wants to sit in the front row.
Comment by Eric — March 21, 2008 @ 10:11 pm
Eric #62 “often no one wants to sit in the front row”
A church I served in a long time ago (during their vacancy) had only a small congregation with a much-too-big building. They ALL lurked at the back. After a number of months I got fed up and said “If you don’t get a bit nearer me then next week I’ll pick up this lectern, carry it half way up the aisle and preach from there”. I would have done, no probs. The next week? Well, they weren’t exactly in the front row but I reckon they were certainly in the middle! Probably worried what that mad wumman would do if they weren’t…
Comment by AnneDroid — March 21, 2008 @ 11:28 pm
haha! go annedroid!
Comment by jonbirch — March 22, 2008 @ 1:18 am
“There’s more funny things about the places people sit in church – some people sit in the same spot every week, and often no one wants to sit in the front row.”
its true for my church. i think ive sat in the same row the last 5 times or watever.
plus i agree with not being able to head the congregation eric. i dont care how bad people sound, id rather hear the whole congregation than just hear the lead musicians.
Comment by ben — March 22, 2008 @ 8:44 am
by head i mean hear congregation over the music.
Comment by ben — March 22, 2008 @ 8:55 am
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Comment by Freya — March 27, 2008 @ 5:45 pm