430
hoping for a bit more discussion on this theme. jf made a point a few posts ago which raised the question of what do we expect to happen when we pray… and i’m interested to hear peoples thoughts and experiences. have a happy friday! 
April 4, 2008
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You had to feed it as well as pray for it …
Comment by Dave — April 4, 2008 @ 3:54 am
ps - up in nite with cold (hence 3:54 am!) - have prayed + taken lemsip - is my faith weak!?… nite nite!
Comment by Dave — April 4, 2008 @ 3:56 am
I usually expect nothing when I pray. I hope for what I “want” but sense that whatever happens is what God wants.
And I’m ok with that.
God’s Glory,
Lew
P.S. God probably punished this little girl for believing in Santa or something…
The Pursuit Online Store
Comment by Lew A — April 4, 2008 @ 4:07 am
If you held me by the tail and yanked on me long enough, I might be dead too.
Comment by becky — April 4, 2008 @ 4:34 am
Obviously she didn’t have enough faith
Comment by One Salient Oversight — April 4, 2008 @ 5:22 am
I understand that the more we read our Bibles and pray together the closer we get to the mind of God. We then begin to understand how God views us and his world and how his will works. For me this explains conundrums such as “faith as small as a mustard seed” and “ask and it will be given to you”. With the mind of God we begin to value and pray for the things that he values (which of course are the things that we and others actually need rather than want), we begin to do the things he does and begin to understand why things dont go the way we expected. With the mind of God we can pray about decisions (discuss them with him), make them and then trust him.
Comment by steve — April 4, 2008 @ 6:23 am
I have to say I really struggle with the practice tho. Reading and praying wth others regularly is hard.
Comment by steve — April 4, 2008 @ 6:40 am
have found myself blown away by prayer recently, partly because life has been so grim, and I’ve felt so fragile as a result, that the effect of prayer has been so obvious.
also for someone who likes their feet safely on the ground, I’ve had to try to understand some difficult experiences, in that prayer has dramatically changed the atmosphere, leaving me to face the reality of a spiritual battle in my life.
Comment by subo — April 4, 2008 @ 6:48 am
God answers prayers, but in his own way, if we ask for strength he gives us the oportunity to be strong, if we ask for someone not to die, he gives us his strength, compassion and comfort to help us support them through their final days. Sorry if this is sombre, lost too many friends over the last year.
Comment by Helen — April 4, 2008 @ 7:06 am
“If the mouse actually didn’t die because of the prayer, what is that to you?”
It’s a question I often ask myself when I pray. Of course at times this would lead to “praying for personal benefit,” but hey, I’m selfish.
Comment by zefi — April 4, 2008 @ 7:22 am
I think Steve and Helen are spot on - too easily we fall into the trap that prayer is a ‘holy magic spell’ that will give us what we think God might think we need, which is usually what we want.
As for answers - sometimes I end up back with the old Jewish ghetto prayer “I believe in God though God be silent”
Helen, btw not sombre, very sane and balanced. Sorry you’ve had such a tough year, but praise God you can see how God was with you in the darktimes.
Comment by Catriona — April 4, 2008 @ 7:23 am
The cosmic butler/genie syndrome eh.
Ecclesiastes 3:1-15
Comment by Slowburn — April 4, 2008 @ 7:50 am
This cartoon has touched a nerve for me… over ten years ago now I lost my older brother, quite suddenly. And I vividly remember praying *hard* as they were trying to resuscitate him on his bedroom floor. It didn’t work. And I really struggled with things as back then I was a relatively new Christian. And I just couldn’t understand why God had let it happen.
I can look back at that time now though and see that He gave me the strength to deal with it. And to support my parents (though I was only 17 at time).
And also that not everything can be understood, but God has a time and a plan for everything. He always answers prayers, just not always in the way you expect/want.
Comment by Caz — April 4, 2008 @ 7:53 am
I find the whole concept of prayer really, really hard to get my head around. Someone once told me that God answers prayer (the ‘asking for stuff’ type) on a “yes”, “no, it is not appropriate” or “yes, but wait” basis. As I’ve thought about it more and heard/read more, I go along with essentially what Steve says @ 6. The closer we grow to God the more our prayers will resonate with His will, so in asking for the ‘right’ things more of our prayers will be answered in the affirmative. Therefore I realise that it is not appropriate for my hamster to last my whole childhood so I would pray for a happy life and a peaceful death for the little fella or something. Or just thank God for my lovely little pet. I try to apply a bit of commonsense to my prayers.
The thing I still struggle with is, if God knows what I want/need before I ask and the closer I grow to Him the closer my prayer approaches His will, what is the point? Can’t He just cut out the middle man and sort it anyway? What is the function of prayer? Is it merely an opportunity to strengthen my relationship, creature to Creator? Or does my prayer have any productive impact on the situation? Is it part of a collective effort that, at a certain point actually tips the balance in favour of God’s grace in certain situations? I would imagine that most people who pray, will regularly pray for the poor of the world and probably have done since childhood. Yet there are as many poor now as there ever have been. What has happened to the vast number of prayers prayed into that situation? Is it ‘inappropriate’ for those people to have adequate resources to live a healthy life? Or is part of the prayer process a move to practical action ourselves? There are plenty of Christian and secular charities and volunteers but still there are poor people. Why do some children die from awful diseases in spite of copious prayer poured out for them? I know I am echoing the old “why does God allow so much suffering” problem but with the add on “in spite of prayer”. I do pray, though often it resembles a text message rather than a personal visit. I probably do a lot more asking than praising. I carefully phrase my requests so that I won’t be too disappointed and trust that there will be an ‘appropriate outcome according to God’s will’. I know that when people pray for me, I feel strengthened in difficulties so I continue to pray for other people. But I still don’t understand the mechanics of it.
Subo @8 - I’m sorry to hear you’ve been going through a tough time of late. I’ll say one for you.
Comment by Carole — April 4, 2008 @ 8:06 am
I’ve often wondered about this. When we pray, what is actually happening? Are we changing God’s mind? Is even that too much of an anthropomorphism?
Rob bell, in his Nooma DVD entitled ‘Rhythm’ talks about God, and addresses the fact that the popular and misguided understanding of God is that he is seperate, distinct and removed from creation, so before discussing any kind of theology we must prove that he is out there, and that by extending this argument, prayer is a request for this distant God to come close and do something.
That’s not how Rob Bell sees it - he describes God as music. He says how people can deny the tune, but it still plays on. Some people know about the intricasies and detail of the music (pitch, mode, harmonic structure and so on) but they are unable to simply enjoy the music. It’s a really interesting analogy.
However, it seems that with this analogy and understanding, prayer is the process of getting oneself in harmony with God.
Death, disease and sickness is not part of God’s will, but since we are fallen, it is our reality, yet still the music plays. It doesn’t drown out the noise of suffering, but it will outlast it.
So why doesn’t an all powerful God just snap his fingers and make it all better? In Jesus, we see a God who suffers - when we suffer, whether we are aware of anything other than the suffering or not, God is at his closest to us: he is with us in that hard place - we’ve all read the ‘footprints’ poem before? God loves us too much to miss these most profound points in our relationship with him. It might suck now, but when we get to glory, our perspective will be changed - like climbing a mountain I guess: all you can see is the rocks, jagged and sharp and hard, but when we get to the top and see the view…
Comment by Richard M. — April 4, 2008 @ 8:08 am
Maybe the mouse didn’t like being CAGED!
Comment by dennis coburn — April 4, 2008 @ 8:13 am
Carole (14) I often speculated to myself that our prayer could be used as some kind of lesson or rebuttal to the spiritual forces (Ephesians 6:12 - powers and principalities). Just a thought.
Also Mat 22:32 “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living” seems relevant. I take this to mean that those we see as dead as still seen as living (may be in a spiritual sense) to god.
Comment by Slowburn — April 4, 2008 @ 8:26 am
I only have one comment really. I’m rubbish at it.
Comment by Robb — April 4, 2008 @ 8:44 am
I pray not to coerce God into doing things but to discipline myself into accepting God as the One in whom I can trust completely no matter what happens, even if some of my ‘asking’ prayers don’t get answered - unfortunately so many people see prayer just as a shopping list of requests when it’s so much more than that - I view it as an honest conversation whereby we can say what we feel and still know that God is trustworthy and will not ridicule us…even if we do slip into ‘please heal my pet mouse’ kind of prayers.
Comment by marcus — April 4, 2008 @ 9:06 am
Having said all that I echo Robb’s comment [18] I’m rubbish at it and at times it’s bloody hard!
Comment by marcus — April 4, 2008 @ 9:07 am
but for some this “chocolate bar machine approach” is appallingly terrifying:
Have chosen the product? check.
Have put the money in? check.
No product? You can’t have put the money in/ it was euros/ you didn’t choose right…..
Worse still it’s all repeated, loudly, tried kicking the machine? banging it? why not gather everyone one round while we try again?
jaded? moi? nah….
Comment by gilly — April 4, 2008 @ 9:28 am
Jon, thanks for bringing this up again. I really agree with Steve at 6 (&7), Carole at 14 and Richard M at 15. It is a catalyst for an inward, meditative process about moving towards mindsets and behaviour which are edifying. But that maybe reflects my own belief that God is an inside, not an outside experience.
What I do not get - and what prompted my initial question, was having sat through many hundreds of “group prayer sessions” along the lines of “Lord we pray for those in need , that they may know your blessing”. Ok as a general consciousness-raiser, I suppose, but verging on the pointless unless you actually dwell on the subject and think about your relationship with it. But there’s no time because the prayer has moved on into its 8th minute and now we’re onto the conflicts of Africa, world hunger, our politicians, the generalities of crime and the specifics of some horror story that was in the news this week. In Jesus’ name, amen. The next hymn is….
Or, even more confounding, tales of people “asking for things” in the hope of (as someone put it here) tipping the balance of God’s grace in their favour. A bit like a letter to Santa and definitely a case of “well I’ve set out what I want to happen, I’ll just sit back now and see what God’s (Santa’s?) will is”. Personally, and without wishing to offend anyone, I see that as a dereliction of personal responsibility.
Great cartoon, by the way! x
Comment by JF — April 4, 2008 @ 9:45 am
Carole, about what you were saying at 14, I often feel like this when praying for big stuff with my church, for instance helping others volunteering on a dangerous mission abroad. Surely, I reason, God loves these people so much, he won’t take ‘extra’ care of them if I pray, he is always working at 100%, and knows what is right in every situation.
However, like you also said, knowing others are praying for me when i’m struggling is so so comforting, that I sometimes wonder if my heart knows something that my mind is still figuring out.
About the question of suffering and prayer, it reminds me of an earlier cartoon Jon did where someone is praying to God and asking why isn’t He doing anything and God replies ‘I was about to ask you the same thing’. It is such an amazing blessing to be allowed to serve and be part of God’s kingdom, and he gives us that blessing in the gift of being able to comfort a friend, smile at someone having a bad day, or do work for charity. What I find extremely difficult, however, is that so many people are suffering as a result of our failure to serve as Jesus serves. It is amazing that God still gives us these opportunities when we mess up so much. But we are His children, and He trusts us with the important stuff, whether we like it or not!
Comment by Hayley — April 4, 2008 @ 10:01 am
JF - The problem you raise is absolutley spot on. If prayer ISN’T about a vending-machine god [21] then why do we approach it like it is? It’s almost like trying to touch on every point in a legalistic way, trying to include a quota of world issues - and again the old question, what on earth do we mena when we say ‘bless so-and-so’? Would it not be more profound and true to just mention a particular instance of suffering and to just weep?
Comment by Richard M. — April 4, 2008 @ 10:16 am
Dave - I was up last night with a cold as well! It isn’t that your faith is weak, perhaps it’s just we should be enjoying some cold sufferers fellowship!
Comment by Hayley — April 4, 2008 @ 10:26 am
On a slightly different note I remember hearing Rob Frost give a sermon on prayer once where he mentioned some odd prayers he had heard people pray. The two that spring to mind of the many he quoted are “Lord just turn our eyes inward” (Painfull) and “Lord I just pray for all those people in the uninhabited parts of the world” (thats nobody). Anyone else got any others?
Comment by Slowburn — April 4, 2008 @ 10:31 am
Yes Hayley, you are quite right. I think there are a lot of moves towards the combination of contemplation and social action. I’m thinking of the likes of Richard Rohr here. But so often when we are at the end of our rope it is exactly then that God surprises us, often in unexpected ways.
Comment by Carole — April 4, 2008 @ 10:34 am
In Genesis 18 Abraham prays and does seem to change God’s mind - God seems intent on destroying Sodom but Abraham ‘persuades’ Him to see if there are 50 righteous ment in the city, and if so, not to destroy the city, and God agrees - Abraham continues to ‘barter’ down to 10 righteous men. I’m sure there are different theological interpretations of this narrative but I’ve always thoughts that it means, in the words of a great Gospel song, that ‘prayer changes things’.
Comment by Ruth — April 4, 2008 @ 11:41 am
Ruth. Gen 18 is v interesting. Like the Samaritan woman at the well with Jesus, Abraham is not afraid to argue (and in the case of the woman I get the impression Jesus welcomed it). However I don’t think these examples are to show us that Gods mind can be changed but are there to show us how to participate in Gods will. God appears to want us to do more that listen to the music (using Mr Bell’s analogy), he appears to want us to join in.
Comment by steve — April 4, 2008 @ 12:02 pm
This is very interesting. Like I say, I’m rubish at it and it isn’t my area of expertise - hense the lack of commenting…
I have a question. If what Ruth says is true (seems to make sense) how can we say that one aspect of prayer isn’t about asking our Father for something? If it isn’t, what is the point?
I tend to go back to Jesus with most questions at some point. How does not my will but yours fit into that? Was Jesus asking the Father for something or not? He clearly went for the Fathers option rather than his own. Surely this was a dialogue rather than his own personal therapy aimed purely at making him accept his fate*
When I was in systematics lectures they always said “now that you have worked out that bit of theology, what does it make God look like? What sort of God do you have?”
In this instance it would make God very authoritarian and unpleasant if it were not a true dialogue.
What about Moses and the burning bush? God got his way but it was a dialogue. He persuaded Moses to do his will through prayer [I'm defining prayer as people and God talking].
*please don’t let this spark a calvinist/arminian debate.
Comment by Robb — April 4, 2008 @ 12:04 pm
Brilliant cartoon. One of your best, to my mind. Thanks.
And thanks to all who’ve commented, giving me a little more to think about.
Comment by Trevor — April 4, 2008 @ 12:09 pm
It’s probably not ‘either/or’ but ‘both/and’. Prayer is probably one of the most profound ways we relate to God - and that’s just it I suppose: it is another part of a dynamic relationship. Sometimes it works one way, other times it works another way. Or perhaps, prayer always has elements of re-alignment with God and true dialogue with him at the same time?
Comment by Richard M. — April 4, 2008 @ 12:17 pm
In which case - it is a much bigger and more profound thing we do when we pray than we could ever get our heads around!
Comment by Richard M. — April 4, 2008 @ 12:19 pm
… not that we shouldn’t try!
Comment by Richard M. — April 4, 2008 @ 12:19 pm
Just a few thoughts. It’s important to understand prayer in terms of the central biblical themes of creation, covenant and the kingdom of God. And when we reflect about the kingdom of God theme we become aware of the kingdom of darkness theme. The apostle Paul experienced phenomenal answers to prayer; in Acts 19:11 he touches hankerchiefs and aprons and wonderful miracles happen. But the very same Paul is beaten and flogged and is shipwrecked (2 Corinthians 11). Prayer needs to be understood in terms of the real battle that is going on in our world between the merciful rule of God and the rule of idolatry and sin. Attending to this biblical background will help us to avoid both triumphalism and cynicism. God does answer our prayers but the creation is still groaning and moaning in travail (Romans 8).
Comment by Mark Roques — April 4, 2008 @ 12:40 pm
Powerful set of questions. I know that we’re told that prayer is important–and I know that at those times in my life that I’ve practiced it, it’s been really good . . .
I’ve heard it said that prayer is that by which God asks us to influence his action in the world . . . in other words, as a (very) partial answer to the question “Why do we need to ask God to do it?” I think that God limits himself sometimes in what he does in creation–and is just waiting for us to ask so that he can act–another way that our free will is expressed in creation.
As to the question of why prayers aren’t answered sometimes, I’ve been thinking quite a bit lately about the how little of the story we actually see . . .
Comment by Sara — April 4, 2008 @ 12:41 pm
Good Cartoon Jon,
on the subject of colds, I had a miserable one last week, I prayed and it got worse! I was at my worst on my wife’s 30th birthday. it was utterly horrible. why couldn’t God at least give me some respite for one day so that I could give my wife a good birthday? Well since then i’ve realised a couple of things. First, some of the annoyances and resentment that we’ve built up over the last 7 years of marriage came to the surface as I recovered resulting in some pretty unpleasant arguments… which also resulted in us sitting down with a good trusted friend/mentor/pastor and dealing with some things which would otherwise have festered for much longer. Now, while I should add that i don’t think our marriage was in crisis but if we hadn’t dealt with some of this stuff in a year or so we could have been in real trouble. Secondly I was Extremely busy january through march and was run down to the brink of exhaustion. if my cold had been better I would have gone to work on wednesday. as it is i went in for 2 hours on thursday, was well enough to work friday and rested for the weekend. i’ve not felt this rested or energised for a long time. i wasn’t taking care of my need for rest and God gave me no choice.
On a more serious note; There is a young girl in our youth ministry who’s sister was born with half a heart. many surgeries (and much prayer)later she did not die as a baby and is now 11 years old. It nearly didn’t happen that way. their mother told me that when she was a baby the doctors wanted to put a feeding tube in her stomach. the pastor and prayer team at the church they were going to told her ‘don’t put the tube in, God is going to heal her, pray against the tube.’ she did, thewy prayed hard and expected when A went in for the surgery the doctors would find they wouldn’t need the tube. It didn’t go well. complication after complication and little A was fighting for her life. Eventually the Doctor in charge came out and said ‘I don’t understand. the tube will not go in and stay in.’ so the mother told him that they’d prayed God would heal her and she wouldn’t need the tube. He looked her in the eye and said ‘did it ever occur to you that God would use me and this tube to heal her?’ he pointed out that there’s a big difference between asking God to do something and telling him how to do it. The next day A had the surgery again, this time the tube went in easily. The ‘experts’ told them she could only survive with the tube for 3 years before the stomach acids started attacking her body and turning cancerous. 11 years later she still has the tube with no side effects. the experts said she’ll never walk or see, she comes with her mother when they pick her sister up from our Youth group, runs around cheerfully hugging people. Last may the doctors told them that the one good valve she had is failing. her heart is giving out and with the specific complications she has she’s not a candidate for a transplant. there is a surgery to put in a mechanical valve, but she’d have to weigh 100lbs for that. she weighs 48lbs now. Her Mother is still praying. but now she prays that her older daughter has the strength to deal with watching her little sister go through all this. She prays for hope, she prays for miracles she prays for healing, she prays for options she prays for strength but mostly and above all she prays that God’s will is done in everything.
A is not in my Youth Group, her sister T is and I pray that God gives me the wisdom, love and strength to be there for this wonderful family.
Comment by Tom C — April 4, 2008 @ 1:24 pm
oops… didn’t realise how long my post was until i posted it!
Comment by Tom C — April 4, 2008 @ 1:25 pm
I just have never been able to get my head around petitioning God to do something and then hoping that he comes up trumps in terms of fulfilling the request.
Let’s say someone I know is seriously ill. Why would I pray for them to get better? Why would God base someone’s health status on whether or not I prayed for them? Or how many people prayed for them? Or how fervently people prayed for them? If, however, I meditate on what that illness means in terms of its impact on that person and their family, then I am guided, in the context of my relationship with that person and my beliefs, to think of the ‘right course’ and how it is best for me to help them by either trying to get involved or staying out of their hair. That is my belief as to the benefit of prayer.
So my “answer to prayer” is knowing how I am to act, in order to affect the person’s situation for the best. “How to act” might even be to ask that person whether they want me around and leaving it to them to decide.
But “Dear God, please make them better” does not chime with how I feel it. No wonder a prayer like that “sometimes doesn’t get answered”.
I once received a prayer request (by e-mail) from a committed Christian friend, who wanted to drum up some prayer support for a professional exam he was facing. He said that only a set % of candidates could pass and it would do wonders for his career, (not to mention his salary!). That day I spent a lot of time thinking about prayer. I even dusted off the concordance! I wondered why I should ask God to effectively fail someone else (a non-Christian, I guess?) and pass him. That day had a profound effect on the way I see prayer. I didn’t pray for him. (In a weak moment I almost hoped he’d fail!). He passed. Due, I guess to the amount of prayer he got? Or the fact that he revised hard? Probably the latter.
I also have to say that I have never enjoyed much success in trying to relate my daily situation to the relationship between God & Abraham as it is handed down to us.
Again I am at pains to clarify that I mean no offence to anyone who sees it differently!
Comment by JF — April 4, 2008 @ 1:56 pm
25 - Hayley - yes - let’s start a church!! How about a strap line…
‘A warm place for cold sufferers’
‘Full Life Union’ (FLU)
‘A place to win friends and influenza people’
… sorry - back to prayer - my 10p worth…
Often changes me more than God - spiritual socialisation. Often wondered why Jesus prayed as the third person of the trinity but then realised that I am always talking to myself – well in my head – image of God??
God ALWAYS answers - yes/no/maybe/are you sure/wait/not quite like that/if you insist/you’re joking etc… Suspect the infatuation/persistent/preoccupation with affirmative responses to prayers are locked into our individualistic, consumerist, supremacist western world view.
Think communal prayer is very powerful – binding/bonding with each other as well as getting into Gods heart – mind you it can be bi-lateral human digs too! I prayed with a youth worker friend in a café the other day and being discrete we kept eyes open and – we were sat opposite each other – so where do you look! Found myself looking into his eyes as I spoke the prayer and was surprisingly deeply moved as I seemed to connect with God in him – have of course played eye-tennis over the grace before – not the same – was something profound – still working it out – but seems connected to importance of community…
Anyway – cold getting better slowly – cheers for cartoon Jon - dave
Comment by Dave — April 4, 2008 @ 2:16 pm
Now if the mouse asked for a quick death, whose prayer is God going to answer?
Comment by zefi — April 4, 2008 @ 2:17 pm
Tom @38 - I hear ya!
Comment by JF — April 4, 2008 @ 2:18 pm
Time to annoy all the prots
My mother was dying in a hospice bed 12 years ago. The Romans boxed her up and sent her to Lourdes. In Lourdes there were thousands of people were praying for healing.
I took her for dinner last week.
Comment by Robb — April 4, 2008 @ 2:30 pm
Wow that is baaaaaad grammar!!
Comment by Robb — April 4, 2008 @ 2:31 pm
Tom C, #37, Thanks for sharing that great story about your friends. You’ve really got me thinking about what that doctor said — not to tell God HOW to answer your prayer.
Comment by Lori — April 4, 2008 @ 2:35 pm
Thanks Lori, It’s particularly interesting that this mother got better spiritual advice from a Jewish surgeon than from a Pastor and trained intercessory prayer team. 11 years later he is still A’s doctor. they no longer go to that church.
Don’t get me wrong, I know people who medically, logically, scientifically are not supposed to be alive. I know people who have been miraculously healed through prayer. The problem is not God. he knows what He’s doing. problems arise when we think we know better.
Comment by Tom C — April 4, 2008 @ 2:55 pm
Robb - as the protestant* son of two parents from East Belfast , the great grandson of an orangeman etc etc I would just like to say that that’s awesome about your mum!
*I hate labels - I’m just using it for common effect!
Comment by Richard M. — April 4, 2008 @ 3:08 pm
Agreed Richard. but unfortunately Robb lost all credibility with his terrible grammar!
Comment by Tom C — April 4, 2008 @ 3:10 pm
Tom: What is a “trained intercessory prayer team”? That idea weirds me out a little.
Comment by JF — April 4, 2008 @ 3:19 pm
JF, it’s another of those things which is not in itself bad, and when grounded in wisdom, faith, sound leadership and above all love can be wonderful. but without that grounding can often be a breeding ground for all sorts of weirdness.
I guess it’s basically about Teaching people about prayer and having people committed to coming together regularly to pray.
Read ‘Intercessory Prayer’ by Dutch Sheets for more depth on the subject.
Comment by Tom C — April 4, 2008 @ 3:53 pm
Hiya folks, this is a great conversation, very moved by reading your comments.
Tom C, “sitting down with a good trusted friend/mentor/pastor and dealing with some things” I find prayer can be like that, I sart off asking God to fix stuff, and end up with him trying to show me how to get stuck in and try working things out, however, it’s amazing to feel we are working with God, picking up ideas from him and creativly moving forward.
wow Robb, amazing, - “The Romans boxed her up and sent her to Lourdes” - I like reading books from other traditions, as it helps me pray with a broader understanding.
“creation is still groaning and moaning in travail” cheers Rocky, we’ve all got a good excuse them, there’s nothing like a good moan.
thanks for note Carol, that really cheered me up, I need al the prayer support I can get at the moment.
Comment by su — April 4, 2008 @ 4:05 pm
Hey Richard M, don’t tell my Scotish protestant side of the family that my Dad converted to Papism like Mothers Irish Catholic family
Robb lost all credibility with his terrible grammar
I would like to defend my bad grammar. I wrote half of the sentence before I ducked a question on the primacy of the papacy by the colleague who called me an apostate yesterday. I then finished it off after avoiding the sola catechism question.
She was later astounded to hear that Anglicans do theology through scripture, tradition and reason.
“realllly!!??!!”
Comment by Robb — April 4, 2008 @ 4:20 pm
Well Robb, I can certainly forgive the grammar since you were in the middle of what sounds like some pretty deft theological maneuvering!
If it makes you feel better i’ve been accused of being a heretic/apostate/new age/satanist by all sorts of people. I figure that as a Christian if you’re not upsetting anyone you’re probably missing the point somewhere!
Any other boat-rockers out there?
Comment by Tom C — April 4, 2008 @ 4:30 pm
I have gone from being sola RE teacher
to part of an RC school RE department. It is great because for the first time in a year I am in a room with other theologians who have an active faith for large portions of the day. It is all light hearted banter. I responded “I usually refer to myself as a heretic. One mans heretic is another mans freedom fighter”….. and on it goes with much merriment. That is what generous orthodoxy is supposed to be about isn’t it. We are strong enough to realise that we may not have the right answers but we do have the same brothers and sisters 
Comment by Robb — April 4, 2008 @ 4:37 pm
This is going to sound cheesy as all get out but that footprints prayer really applies to my life - I don’t know it at the time obviously but when I reflect on my past, I can see how EVERY time I had hit a level of despair someone came into my life that carried me - at times I was carried kicking and screaming but I see now how what I thought were unanswered prayers turned out to be God leading me in another direction.
I’ve lost too many people in my life so that when someone dies and they say it’s God’s will, I want to slap them. I have no clue why for example, my parents died of alcoholism whereas other people were able to go through rehab successfully. But Henri Nouwen and Gerald May’s work have helped me immensely in understanding our through our brokeness we can become the broken body of Christ that can offer healing to the world.
Comment by becky — April 4, 2008 @ 5:12 pm
Becky, thaks for sharing that with us. I think it really highlites the reality of our own and each others situations. The truth of the matter is that life is hard. Bad things happen to good people. Bad people can have eveything handed to them on a plate. I think that the ‘whys’ are some of the hardest questions. Why him? Why me? Why them? At this point I have no answer.
I think the footprints prayer is good for someone after they have made it to the other side. I suspect that as a pastoral strategy when someone is going through the worst that life can give it is of little comfort.
BTW, I’m still rubbish at it [prayer]!
Is there ever anyone who thinks that they are good at it. My monastic friend who spends each and every day going through a serious regime of prayer often talks about his inadequacy in prayer!
Comment by Robb — April 4, 2008 @ 5:20 pm
I have a friend who answers the prayer debate with a few thougts…
1. God may say yes. In which case we actually have to do something.
2. God may say No. To which our response is to gripe about it and complain.
3. The third response is my favorite. God may say…Get a fricken clue people! To which we proceed to picture God as this mean guy with a magnifying glass burning the ants.
Either way… Shouldn’t we come to an understanding that we can’t solve, fix, muniplate the creator to fit our portrait of the perfect picture that WE expect God to be?
Comment by Jeremy — April 4, 2008 @ 6:02 pm
I think that God gives us what we’re really asking for, not for the request we’ve worded. When I prayed for healing, I really was yearning for wholeness. My legs are still dead, but I do feel he has made me whole. When I pray that a friend survives, I either want peace for myself or the best for him. God gives me both.
Comment by Tokah — April 4, 2008 @ 6:37 pm
This has been such a good debate I might just print off all the comments and give them proper thought!
I like this, and Tokah it maybe fits with what you’ve just said:
“A British pilot had not flown very far before he noticed a peculiar noise. Looking down, he saw a rat gnawing away at a vital part of his plane. He could not stop to kill the rodent. What could he do? Up into the rarified air he zoomed, and the rat rolled over, dead. Does this not illustrate the power of prayer? When the rat of hell tempts us, prayer takes us up into the rare air of heaven, where everything not of God quickly dies”. - by Herbert Lockyer in a very old devotional book called “Climbing the Heights”.
Yes, I know there’s some joke now to be made about the dead rat of the quote and the dead mouse of the cartoon but it just eludes me, thankfully.
Ax
Comment by AnneDroid — April 4, 2008 @ 7:04 pm
I have come to the conclusion that I have NO idea of what is best for me - or those around me. Much of prayer is silence, tho I still talk to God about concerns I have, eg my son who understandably has given up on God in the face of unanswered prayer.
I find that silence and the sort of prayer “lord you have always given peace for the coming day, and though of anxious heart, today I believe”; “do with me whatevr you will - whatever you do I will thank you”; (I try to mean it, but fail!!) brings a sense of yearning trust that somehow does lead me on - and I find myself surprised at sometimes saying something that really hits the spot for someone
But prayer for things I find almost impossible even tho Jesus taught us to pray for the things we need daily.
And when Christians pray all night, or hold large prayer meetings - what is that about?? The more time, the more people, the “better”??
Comment by Chris F — April 4, 2008 @ 7:42 pm
Just a quick thought I once read that ‘Prayer changes the Pray-er”, and I believe there is an element of truth in that. But apart from that I pray because Jesus has told me to pray, because the “prayers of a righteous man avail much” and one day I might become righteous and then it will make a difference. I pray because I have seen God heal people, (no Christians) healed completely of deafness. So if pray has no effect then i would have to assume that God was going to just heal this boy as he walked along the road with his mother.
When it comes down to it though I pray because I want to, and don’t normally give my self to analysing the whys and where-fors.
Hope I see some more answers to prayer in a positive way. I confess I don’t understand why God’s kingdom is better off if a little child is scared to hear the footfall on the stairs at night, even if people pray against it.
Comment by PaulRowden — April 4, 2008 @ 7:44 pm
56 - Rob - I hear you - when I was in the midst of a major crisis, if anyone stated passing out tracts, I would have smacked them. I could do a whole rant on the damage done here in NYC post 9/11 by well intentioned volunteers (including some clergy) who wanted to help and felt they had do to something - e.g., Firefighters really don’t want teddy bears with hearts on their tummies. What I found was the most effective was just being there.
I find that prayer changes me not the person. Because I’m a very talkative person, I find what’s critical is for me to sit still and just “be” - the less stressed I am, the easier it is for me to ignore the cares of the world, so I can be truly present.
Comment by becky — April 4, 2008 @ 9:13 pm
thank you all for the overwhelmingly honest way in which you have approached this subject. it is clearly a massive topic which cuts right to the heart of who we are, how we behave and our relationships with our creator, the world and each other. some of the stories here are very affecting. thank you for telling them.
a lot of what i think has already been expressed by others far more eloquently than i could. i stand with jf on many of his own thoughts and share similar experiences to some of you. i’ll tell a story of mine in a cartoon soon.
i do think prayer should be about us being in tune with what is going on. i prayed my mum would live… she died. but prayer helped me in my helplessness… even though it was more panicking than any traditional form of prayer, it was real. and i’d do it again. being real, honest and raw before the maker… too broken for airs, graces and flowery language… too confused to talk sense and reason… too lost to pretend i felt found.
thank you jf for stimulating such a great thread. i say it a lot i know, but this blog’s a privilege to be a part of… who’d have thought it would mean this much to me? and i certainly never prayed for it to happen!
welcome to new commentors! sorry i’ve been absent for a few days… but you are welcome here and your contibutions are very much appreciated.
peace, all.
Comment by jonbirch — April 5, 2008 @ 12:15 am
Glad to read that comment jon as I’ve been worrying we put you under pressure to come up with new stuff day after day - glad to hear it seems to bless you too
Re “it was more panicking than any traditional form of prayer” - I think panicking prayers are probably one of the most traditional types there are…
Ax
Comment by AnneDroid — April 5, 2008 @ 8:56 am
panicking prayers are probably one of the most traditional types there are…
The ministry of celestial blackmail. “If this plane doesn’t crash I’ll beleive in you, give all my money to charity and go to chruch….”
Comment by Robb — April 5, 2008 @ 10:32 am
don’t think it is a problem to throw our hopes and desires out there to God. But to hope for God to change the laws of nature for our benefit probably will lead to much frustration. I like the thought that if we stop, say hello to God, say I am here,then fall into stillness, God will see in to our hearts. I also like saying howdy and place my self into scripture, but I have been strongly influenced by Jesuits.
I’ve been hoping to write a perfect comment, but I think God let me down again… ;’
Comment by wayne — April 5, 2008 @ 11:29 am
Have we all seen how Bruce Almighty deals with the issue of prayer?
Comment by Robb — April 5, 2008 @ 11:54 am
Interesting thread….
So, those of you not in a church/ministry related occupation….do you ever ask the people you work with to pray with you about work related topics?
I’m sort of seesawing back and forth about whether/what I believe any more, but I’m leading an incredibly intense project. There’s 2 guys that are definately christians on my team and I swear, sometimes, I just want to say “can we stop what we’re doing and just pray about this…” but I don’t want to sound 1) desperate 2) unprofessional.
How do the rest of you deal with living out your christianity with others in the “real world”?
Comment by Laura — April 5, 2008 @ 11:52 pm
Sorry Laura I don’t. And the people in the non-church/ministry related occupation are christians…
Do’h
Comment by Robb — April 5, 2008 @ 11:55 pm
re 65 - love Homer Simpsons take on prayer - eg ‘if you want me to eat this bun don’t answer this prayer’! A man after my own heart … and stomach!! dave
Comment by Dave — April 6, 2008 @ 4:27 am
@68: i do not, because prayer is something intimate. there are other intimate things too, which i would not do with my collegues at work.
however what i do is, sometimes say a prayer silently only by myself (in the middle of a terribly boring meeting e.g. ). and i pray for me an for the other people.
i sometimes found that this might “take us (me)up into the rare air of heaven, where everything not of God quickly dies”. but it is a good idea to think of forms of prayer at work…
when i pray (not at work) i try to think of a sentence which might describe exactly what i pray for an d then i give this to good or try to put it into his presence (??) and then i do as much as i can to make it happen (ideally…
Comment by inge — April 6, 2008 @ 12:28 pm
I so regret not having found this thread on April 4. Any comments I might have are now obsolete.
Actually … almost any. If all other prayers seem to be superfluous, God will ALWAYS grant one specific prayer: “Father, let your love for this person flow through me.” It never fails.
Comment by Jim Thompson — April 8, 2008 @ 1:12 am
It’s never too late to make comments on these threads Jim.
Comment by Laura — April 8, 2008 @ 3:54 am
“Father, let your love for this person flow through me.” hi jim… you’re right, that prayer could never be superfluous… like your comment.
Comment by jonbirch — April 8, 2008 @ 10:28 am
Pray simply what’s really in your heart. Be honest.
Comment by sarah — May 7, 2008 @ 9:06 pm