Who can blame ‘em, eh? Reminds me of something a celibate priest once said to me talking generally about priestly colleagues who were ‘in denial’ – “They’re so far in the closet they’re almost in Narnia!” Big C.S. Lewis fan, obviously.
i think the best thing would be just to pray without pushing the issue… i dunno .. my church believes in being forthcoming and sometimes pushy about the whole thing… sometimes it works sometimes it doesn’t…
personally… i’d just followup once in a while and let the Holy Spirit do the convicting…
A co-worker’s roommate was told it would be better if he were a murderer in jail than what he is, gay! PLEASE!
Comment by thevikingfru — April 16, 2008 @ 1:37 am
Duh – I didn’t get the in the closet reference. So I was thinking of the dumb ass comments because those have been made to me albeit re: another issue.
Basic problem here is the humans proclaiming “We can help you . . .”
Uhh, mister and misses human being, that ain’t YOUR job.
Your job is to preach Jesus Christ crucified and Jesus Christ risen to offer and fulfill atonement and forgiveness so humanity can have the “Peace which passes all understanding” – peace between the human soul/spirit and God.
IF there’s something which needs to be “helped”, that is Jesus’, God’s and the Holy Spirit’s job.
If they can’t handle it, then . . . actually, there’s no point in finishing that phrase, it’s meaningless – - They Will handle it.
This served to remind me of my own failings. I’m looking at the people outside the closet, thinking “Thank God I’m not like THEM” which makes me no different from them. Like the two guys praying in the temple in Luke 18:10.
I think this illustrates how it is for anyone who feels self-conscious about going to church because of something they think other people will judge them about.
Most of us don’t like to feel everyone is looking at us… In that sense it doesn’t matter what the issue is. It could be the first time you go back to church after a marriage break up, or after your name was in the paper for drink driving, or whatever or whatever. That isn’t always the fault of the church – it can just be our perception of how it’s going to be.
Sympathy and prayer can be lovely at times of course, but at other times Harry Potter’s Invisibility Cloak’s what we would really like!
Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.
Enemies may be a bit strong in this case but seems relevant.
caz… i really don’t know how you put up with it all. to be honest though, many do see others sexuality as the enemy. sad but true. i think, to be fair, slowburn is focussing on the loving and giving bit, not the enemy bit, but even so, a scripture that uses the word enemy and is then applied to our brothers and sisters is a shocker.
i guess when i do cartoons on this subject i naively hope that we will come to a single view, that love is key, that we will not judge nor condemn, that we are not in the shoes of another, that it is perfectly possible to be gay and to walk in the light, etc. etc.
realistically i know that won’t happen. believe it or not i have no desire to start arguments on this topic… reasons to do with justice and a desire to do right by my brothers and sisters are what motivate me to draw cartoons on this subject. i find it utterly heartbreaking that many live in fear of judgement, that many are called terrible names, that many are told how bad they are and not how good they are etc. etc. what the hell are we doing!!!??? love! love! love! love god, your neighbour as yourself. when we judge we poor judgement on ourselves… sobering thought.
anita… i admire and respect the work you do. much needed and beautifully executed. your understanding of the underlying grace within scripture is breathtaking. you have given many a place of comfort, companionship and openness… i thank god for you and others like you. bless you.
You’ve such a way with words, Jon, as well as images
I find the whole thing really frustrating more than anything, partly (and selfishly) for myself. But moreso because I know of so many people in the gay community that think I am *totally* crazy for being a Christian. They question how I, as a gay person, can be so deeply involved with something which, they believe, is inherantly against them as people. Which is of course how it looks to most people outside the church, cos it makes for a better story in the media.
It makes the church rather difficult to defend.
People don’t realise that there are two extremes of opinions on the subject, and a whole spectrum and inbetween bits too.
Anyway, re the cartoon… I very nearly came out of my “church closet” a couple of months ago after something I took as very hurtful was said from the pulpit, it made me so angry at the time. But fear has made me decide to stay put. I’m quite ashamed about that really. But it’s so cosy in that closet!
caz, bless you. there is nothing wrong with the closet… reminds of the image of god as a hiding place. hide in him. i wouldn’t come out if i thought i might be beaten up. there’s a time to fight and a time to rest in him. rest. i shouldn’t worry too much about defending the church… christ is a different thing altogether and it is him you follow.
i too have heard despicable things said from the pulpit… from people who should know better.
don’t be ashamed, no need. to reveal the full beauty of who you are to people who will not appreciate and embrace that beauty may not be wise anyway. if the time is right to come out to them i’m sure you’ll know. the time may never be right and that is okay too. who else in your church gets up and tells you about their sexual orientation in a way that makes them vulnerable?… no one probably. save it for those who truly love you and will support you like you support them in the spirit of true community. after all, what good is community if you are required to change before being accepted? that is an exclusive club!
thanks for your honesty and bravery here on this blog. i don’t know that we deserve it. you are brilliant!
it makes for a better story in the media…
People don’t realise that there are two extremes of opinions on the subject, and a whole spectrum and inbetween bits too.
It certainly does seem to be a media frenzy. For some reason the church takes the brunt of it. I guess that is because some people make it a badge of their faith – in either direction – rather than a red herring. I mean, here we are again sowing that we will post more about this than any other topic. Look after the poor? 3 posts. “Sexuality”…. blue touch paper.
The media frenzy of it is that it is socially acceptable to bash the church. It doesn’t sell papers to point out the variety of opinion. In fact it doesn’t sell papers to point out that many christians believe that this is a hugely important issue and a matter of social justice from a Pro Gay point of view. Just doesn’t sell papers. I guess the Telegraph shows that conservative public opinion is homophobic and that they will shout the ‘failing moral standards of the church’ whenever they get a chance. It is attempting to take the church and use it for its own secular ends.
I bet a thousand Ugandan Shillings that I can’t find a newspaper story bashing Islam for its attitudes to homosexuality. Islam has a very hard line stance upon the issue. Never mentioned. Christianity has “two extremes of opinions on the subject, and a whole spectrum and inbetween bits too” but that is never mentioned.
Yes as I said ‘enemy’ is a bit strong in this context but I think given the extreme homophobic response some church’s display this passage is relevant. For more on my views check out my posts at the end of your ‘red herring’ toon.
Caz – I would echo Jon’s sentiments. It’s your call who you want to reveal your inner beauty to – I’ve had people on the verge of tears when they read bits about my highly dysfunctional childhood and say I never knew what you went through because you look so “normal.” I keep parts of myself private that are known (and loved) by God and reveal them when and if it feels right for me to do so.
I hear you regarding the extremes. I left a church that was inclusive because the discussion started focusing more on gay rights than Christ’s teachings. “Try” to have a discussion about what it means to be sexual beings and Christians in most US church settings and you can’t – the subject is taboo in conservative circles and I’ve been in church settings where people talked about their sex lives and talked about frequenting gay (and straight) pick-up joints in ways that struck me as equally unhealthy.
robb, you’re right. i think loving your neighbour, feeding the poor, embracing those who are different is pretty sensational… the media clearly don’t see it that way. the daily mail reads like the bnp in printed form…. yeeeeuch!
slowburn… for those church’s who are extremely homophobic that passage might at least be a place to start i guess. i suppose if one thinks like that in the first place anyone who mildly disagrees with one would be considered an enemy. very sad. those people seem to be willfully enslaving themselves to living a monochrome existence. i’d feel sorry for them were they not always so darned agressive.
i don’t think it matters that people are gay. the bible has nothig against people being gay, and God certainly doesn’t! however, i think if you’re a christian and gay then the bible tells you not to do anyhting sexual with somenoe of the same gender so you shouldn’t!
please can you do something about self-harm? people know little enogh about it as it is, especially christians. my mother basically told me i wan’t human when she found out i cut. that kinda hurt. and some christians are all “you’re damaging the sacred temple of christ!” and don’t give a sh^t that you’re only doing it cos you don’t know what else to do.
i have done a couple of cartoons emie, after your last request but i have been nervous about putting them up. i think maybe i should bite the bullet on it so we can have a proper discussion. thank you for prodding me.
The biggest trouble I ever had in churches was talking to people who just accept a lot of stuff they get told and never question it. Never search their own soul and examine the context and lives of their fellow humans. I mean that in general terms. But in terms of specifics, the homosexuality issue is a prime example. People in churches who don’t really even engage with any one outside the church, let alone with any ‘out’ gay people… coming across like they know all about it and saying how gay people should behave. I think it’s called ‘bigotry’? There, that’s given the spade a name.
29. My experience in covering religion is that those religious leaders who “hate” gays have some serious issues with their own sexuality. If they truly came out and admitted that their real self as a child of God is someone who isn’t a happily married man with 2.5 perfect children, they’d be ostracized and their high priced career would be history. Ted Haggard is a prime example here.
I just looked at this cartoon again and noticed the woman saying “we can help you become more normal” Totally aside from sexuality that idea is horrible to me! I can think of few things that would inspire self loathing in me than if i ‘became normal’. for a start, i work with teenagers and enjoy it. that’s hardly normal!
I would suggest that the best way to get conservatives to accept homosexual people is not dragging them straight into a gay pride parade. I was browsing scientific journals the other day (for completely unrelated research) and accidentally found a number of papers about pheromones and sexual orientation (don’t ask!) but anyway my point is, there’s a suprising amount of published work on sexual orientation that suggests that gay people really are born that way, and hypotheses as to why.
Anyway, one way you might get more conservative people to look at it is that we don’t tell congenitally blind people that they’re perversely refusing to see, or force autistic people to host big dinner parties. It might be somewhat offensive to you to hear sexuality described in terms of disability but from a biological (Darwinian, hee) point of view it is, and might be a more convincing way to stop others from trying to “cure” you.
Er yah it does. You obviously haven’t been paying attention to Paul’s epistles. He very clearly states that it’s sinful to have sex with someone of the same gender.
The debate over interpretation is whether it’s a cultural ban (e.g. “it’s disgraceful for a woman to pray with her head uncovered”, the word disgraceful implying that the right or wrong of it has to do with the impact on society) or an absolute one that still applies.
Xenobiologista – the problem is that there is a huge bias in both directions when it comes to the medical research into homosexuality. People come to the topic with even more presupposed results before the study has taken place than even Dawkins approach to anything scientific. Those who are anti-homosexual will condict a study to prove that they are right. Conversly, so will those who are pro-homosexual. There is a massive lack of scientific discipline going on in the whole area.
BTW on an unrelated point, the best and most reasoned theological arguement* that I have encountered recently was James Alison’s ‘On Being Liked’. Very good read. I wish I could find a conservative who can apply such good academic rigour to the topic so that a reasoned debate can take place.
Oh yeah, much of what Paul says about homosexuality is to support his theological argument. He doesn’t state a theological arguement to condemn homosexuality, he condemns homosexuality to support his theological development.
LOL – here’s a similar one – Let’s talk so we can reconcile (said to me while the said person was still engaging in abusive behavior towards me).
Comment by becky — April 16, 2008 @ 12:19 am
Who can blame ‘em, eh? Reminds me of something a celibate priest once said to me talking generally about priestly colleagues who were ‘in denial’ – “They’re so far in the closet they’re almost in Narnia!” Big C.S. Lewis fan, obviously.
Comment by Carole — April 16, 2008 @ 12:28 am
i think the best thing would be just to pray without pushing the issue… i dunno .. my church believes in being forthcoming and sometimes pushy about the whole thing… sometimes it works sometimes it doesn’t…
personally… i’d just followup once in a while and let the Holy Spirit do the convicting…
Comment by mckenzy — April 16, 2008 @ 12:29 am
A co-worker’s roommate was told it would be better if he were a murderer in jail than what he is, gay! PLEASE!
Comment by thevikingfru — April 16, 2008 @ 1:37 am
Duh – I didn’t get the in the closet reference.
So I was thinking of the dumb ass comments because those have been made to me albeit re: another issue.
Comment by becky — April 16, 2008 @ 2:27 am
Jon, I’m starting to think you might be my personal graphic designer! What a perfect illustration! Short comment….gotta go hit that “donate” button
Comment by anita — April 16, 2008 @ 3:01 am
Basic problem here is the humans proclaiming “We can help you . . .”
Uhh, mister and misses human being, that ain’t YOUR job.
Your job is to preach Jesus Christ crucified and Jesus Christ risen to offer and fulfill atonement and forgiveness so humanity can have the “Peace which passes all understanding” – peace between the human soul/spirit and God.
IF there’s something which needs to be “helped”, that is Jesus’, God’s and the Holy Spirit’s job.
If they can’t handle it, then . . . actually, there’s no point in finishing that phrase, it’s meaningless – - They Will handle it.
Comment by FSWood — April 16, 2008 @ 4:37 am
Shame there isnt a CLOSET we could lock all the looney Christians in……….. hey let me out. I hate the thought of someone being locked up.
Comment by dennis coburn — April 16, 2008 @ 7:12 am
This served to remind me of my own failings. I’m looking at the people outside the closet, thinking “Thank God I’m not like THEM” which makes me no different from them. Like the two guys praying in the temple in Luke 18:10.
Comment by botticelliwoman — April 16, 2008 @ 7:13 am
I think this illustrates how it is for anyone who feels self-conscious about going to church because of something they think other people will judge them about.
Most of us don’t like to feel everyone is looking at us… In that sense it doesn’t matter what the issue is. It could be the first time you go back to church after a marriage break up, or after your name was in the paper for drink driving, or whatever or whatever. That isn’t always the fault of the church – it can just be our perception of how it’s going to be.
Sympathy and prayer can be lovely at times of course, but at other times Harry Potter’s Invisibility Cloak’s what we would really like!
Ax
Comment by AnneDroid — April 16, 2008 @ 7:26 am
Is it me or does the guy with hair (2nd from right) bear more than just a passing resemblance to Ted Haggard?
Comment by Joe — April 16, 2008 @ 8:18 am
I am not coming out either! LOL! Never!
Comment by Elyong — April 16, 2008 @ 8:19 am
Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.
Enemies may be a bit strong in this case but seems relevant.
Comment by slowburn — April 16, 2008 @ 9:02 am
Little bit strong, yes.
Comment by Caz — April 16, 2008 @ 9:30 am
very restrained Caz.
Comment by Hayley — April 16, 2008 @ 10:17 am
Thankyou
Comment by Caz — April 16, 2008 @ 10:28 am
caz… i really don’t know how you put up with it all. to be honest though, many do see others sexuality as the enemy. sad but true. i think, to be fair, slowburn is focussing on the loving and giving bit, not the enemy bit, but even so, a scripture that uses the word enemy and is then applied to our brothers and sisters is a shocker.
i guess when i do cartoons on this subject i naively hope that we will come to a single view, that love is key, that we will not judge nor condemn, that we are not in the shoes of another, that it is perfectly possible to be gay and to walk in the light, etc. etc.
realistically i know that won’t happen. believe it or not i have no desire to start arguments on this topic… reasons to do with justice and a desire to do right by my brothers and sisters are what motivate me to draw cartoons on this subject. i find it utterly heartbreaking that many live in fear of judgement, that many are called terrible names, that many are told how bad they are and not how good they are etc. etc. what the hell are we doing!!!??? love! love! love! love god, your neighbour as yourself. when we judge we poor judgement on ourselves… sobering thought.
Comment by jonbirch — April 16, 2008 @ 10:37 am
anita… i admire and respect the work you do. much needed and beautifully executed. your understanding of the underlying grace within scripture is breathtaking. you have given many a place of comfort, companionship and openness… i thank god for you and others like you. bless you.
Comment by jonbirch — April 16, 2008 @ 10:42 am
You’ve such a way with words, Jon, as well as images
I find the whole thing really frustrating more than anything, partly (and selfishly) for myself. But moreso because I know of so many people in the gay community that think I am *totally* crazy for being a Christian. They question how I, as a gay person, can be so deeply involved with something which, they believe, is inherantly against them as people. Which is of course how it looks to most people outside the church, cos it makes for a better story in the media.
It makes the church rather difficult to defend.
People don’t realise that there are two extremes of opinions on the subject, and a whole spectrum and inbetween bits too.
Anyway, re the cartoon… I very nearly came out of my “church closet” a couple of months ago after something I took as very hurtful was said from the pulpit, it made me so angry at the time. But fear has made me decide to stay put. I’m quite ashamed about that really. But it’s so cosy in that closet!
Comment by Caz — April 16, 2008 @ 11:09 am
caz, bless you.
there is nothing wrong with the closet… reminds of the image of god as a hiding place. hide in him. i wouldn’t come out if i thought i might be beaten up. there’s a time to fight and a time to rest in him. rest. i shouldn’t worry too much about defending the church… christ is a different thing altogether and it is him you follow.
i too have heard despicable things said from the pulpit… from people who should know better.
don’t be ashamed, no need. to reveal the full beauty of who you are to people who will not appreciate and embrace that beauty may not be wise anyway. if the time is right to come out to them i’m sure you’ll know. the time may never be right and that is okay too. who else in your church gets up and tells you about their sexual orientation in a way that makes them vulnerable?… no one probably. save it for those who truly love you and will support you like you support them in the spirit of true community. after all, what good is community if you are required to change before being accepted? that is an exclusive club!
thanks for your honesty and bravery here on this blog. i don’t know that we deserve it. you are brilliant!
Comment by jonbirch — April 16, 2008 @ 11:34 am
Thankyou, Jon. Your words mean a lot.
I love this blog.. I’ve been a ‘lurker’ for a while.
You’re pretty brilliant yourself!
Comment by Caz — April 16, 2008 @ 11:38 am
aw, shucks… i try m’best.
Comment by jonbirch — April 16, 2008 @ 11:39 am
it makes for a better story in the media…
People don’t realise that there are two extremes of opinions on the subject, and a whole spectrum and inbetween bits too.
It certainly does seem to be a media frenzy. For some reason the church takes the brunt of it. I guess that is because some people make it a badge of their faith – in either direction – rather than a red herring. I mean, here we are again sowing that we will post more about this than any other topic. Look after the poor? 3 posts. “Sexuality”…. blue touch paper.
The media frenzy of it is that it is socially acceptable to bash the church. It doesn’t sell papers to point out the variety of opinion. In fact it doesn’t sell papers to point out that many christians believe that this is a hugely important issue and a matter of social justice from a Pro Gay point of view. Just doesn’t sell papers. I guess the Telegraph shows that conservative public opinion is homophobic and that they will shout the ‘failing moral standards of the church’ whenever they get a chance. It is attempting to take the church and use it for its own secular ends.
I bet a thousand Ugandan Shillings that I can’t find a newspaper story bashing Islam for its attitudes to homosexuality. Islam has a very hard line stance upon the issue. Never mentioned. Christianity has “two extremes of opinions on the subject, and a whole spectrum and inbetween bits too” but that is never mentioned.
Comment by Robb — April 16, 2008 @ 11:43 am
Yes as I said ‘enemy’ is a bit strong in this context but I think given the extreme homophobic response some church’s display this passage is relevant. For more on my views check out my posts at the end of your ‘red herring’ toon.
Comment by slowburn — April 16, 2008 @ 11:43 am
Caz – I would echo Jon’s sentiments. It’s your call who you want to reveal your inner beauty to – I’ve had people on the verge of tears when they read bits about my highly dysfunctional childhood and say I never knew what you went through because you look so “normal.” I keep parts of myself private that are known (and loved) by God and reveal them when and if it feels right for me to do so.
I hear you regarding the extremes. I left a church that was inclusive because the discussion started focusing more on gay rights than Christ’s teachings. “Try” to have a discussion about what it means to be sexual beings and Christians in most US church settings and you can’t – the subject is taboo in conservative circles and I’ve been in church settings where people talked about their sex lives and talked about frequenting gay (and straight) pick-up joints in ways that struck me as equally unhealthy.
Comment by becky — April 16, 2008 @ 12:37 pm
robb, you’re right. i think loving your neighbour, feeding the poor, embracing those who are different is pretty sensational… the media clearly don’t see it that way. the daily mail reads like the bnp in printed form…. yeeeeuch!
slowburn… for those church’s who are extremely homophobic that passage might at least be a place to start i guess. i suppose if one thinks like that in the first place anyone who mildly disagrees with one would be considered an enemy. very sad. those people seem to be willfully enslaving themselves to living a monochrome existence. i’d feel sorry for them were they not always so darned agressive.
Comment by jonbirch — April 16, 2008 @ 1:29 pm
i don’t think it matters that people are gay. the bible has nothig against people being gay, and God certainly doesn’t! however, i think if you’re a christian and gay then the bible tells you not to do anyhting sexual with somenoe of the same gender so you shouldn’t!
please can you do something about self-harm? people know little enogh about it as it is, especially christians. my mother basically told me i wan’t human when she found out i cut. that kinda hurt. and some christians are all “you’re damaging the sacred temple of christ!” and don’t give a sh^t that you’re only doing it cos you don’t know what else to do.
Comment by émie — April 16, 2008 @ 5:52 pm
i have done a couple of cartoons emie, after your last request but i have been nervous about putting them up. i think maybe i should bite the bullet on it so we can have a proper discussion. thank you for prodding me.
Comment by jonbirch — April 16, 2008 @ 6:04 pm
The biggest trouble I ever had in churches was talking to people who just accept a lot of stuff they get told and never question it. Never search their own soul and examine the context and lives of their fellow humans. I mean that in general terms. But in terms of specifics, the homosexuality issue is a prime example. People in churches who don’t really even engage with any one outside the church, let alone with any ‘out’ gay people… coming across like they know all about it and saying how gay people should behave. I think it’s called ‘bigotry’? There, that’s given the spade a name.
Comment by JF — April 16, 2008 @ 6:44 pm
you have named the spade well jf… it’s a horrible name but fits accurately.
Comment by jonbirch — April 16, 2008 @ 11:04 pm
29. My experience in covering religion is that those religious leaders who “hate” gays have some serious issues with their own sexuality. If they truly came out and admitted that their real self as a child of God is someone who isn’t a happily married man with 2.5 perfect children, they’d be ostracized and their high priced career would be history. Ted Haggard is a prime example here.
Comment by becky — April 17, 2008 @ 12:20 pm
i would suspect it is a similar story for homophobes the world over becky.
Comment by jonbirch — April 17, 2008 @ 12:43 pm
Is part of the ‘cure’ to stand more than a metre from anyone else like these people are?
Comment by Andy in Germany — April 18, 2008 @ 8:30 am
That is because they are Borg
Comment by Robb — April 18, 2008 @ 8:36 am
I just looked at this cartoon again and noticed the woman saying “we can help you become more normal” Totally aside from sexuality that idea is horrible to me! I can think of few things that would inspire self loathing in me than if i ‘became normal’. for a start, i work with teenagers and enjoy it. that’s hardly normal!
Besides Jesus was far from ‘normal’.
ok, enough ranting
who defines ‘normal’ anyway?
Comment by Tom C — April 18, 2008 @ 8:25 pm
surely we have no right to judge our brothers and sisters on anything… surely, our duty is to love one another as we love ourselves.
an interesting concept, when we think how much we love ourselves.
I think a huge part of the issue is this normalizing campaign some people seem to be on – they forget that judgement ain’t our job.
Comment by Bee — April 18, 2008 @ 9:03 pm
Thanks for this one, Jon.
Comment by flayedhypatia — April 19, 2008 @ 1:05 am
bee and tom c… i agree completely.
flayedhypatia… you’re welcome.
Comment by jonbirch — April 19, 2008 @ 9:21 am
I would suggest that the best way to get conservatives to accept homosexual people is not dragging them straight into a gay pride parade. I was browsing scientific journals the other day (for completely unrelated research) and accidentally found a number of papers about pheromones and sexual orientation (don’t ask!) but anyway my point is, there’s a suprising amount of published work on sexual orientation that suggests that gay people really are born that way, and hypotheses as to why.
Anyway, one way you might get more conservative people to look at it is that we don’t tell congenitally blind people that they’re perversely refusing to see, or force autistic people to host big dinner parties. It might be somewhat offensive to you to hear sexuality described in terms of disability but from a biological (Darwinian, hee) point of view it is, and might be a more convincing way to stop others from trying to “cure” you.
Comment by Xenobiologista — May 7, 2008 @ 2:09 pm
“the bible has nothig against people being gay”
Er yah it does. You obviously haven’t been paying attention to Paul’s epistles. He very clearly states that it’s sinful to have sex with someone of the same gender.
The debate over interpretation is whether it’s a cultural ban (e.g. “it’s disgraceful for a woman to pray with her head uncovered”, the word disgraceful implying that the right or wrong of it has to do with the impact on society) or an absolute one that still applies.
Comment by Xenobiologista — May 7, 2008 @ 2:13 pm
Xenobiologista – the problem is that there is a huge bias in both directions when it comes to the medical research into homosexuality. People come to the topic with even more presupposed results before the study has taken place than even Dawkins approach to anything scientific. Those who are anti-homosexual will condict a study to prove that they are right. Conversly, so will those who are pro-homosexual. There is a massive lack of scientific discipline going on in the whole area.
BTW on an unrelated point, the best and most reasoned theological arguement* that I have encountered recently was James Alison’s ‘On Being Liked’. Very good read. I wish I could find a conservative who can apply such good academic rigour to the topic so that a reasoned debate can take place.
*rather than scientific.
Comment by Robb — May 7, 2008 @ 2:33 pm
Oh yeah, much of what Paul says about homosexuality is to support his theological argument. He doesn’t state a theological arguement to condemn homosexuality, he condemns homosexuality to support his theological development.
Comment by Robb — May 7, 2008 @ 2:36 pm