Years ago I heard a sermon by Jack Hayford on baptism. He said that this practice, intended to unite Christians, has become one of the greater sources of division. He gave a wonderful sermon, and when the radio program ended, I realized that he never once described the procedure used at his church - dunking vs sprinkling, etc. Not a bit.
I’ve just gotten home from Communion, and I was thinking how great it was. After everyone receiving, we all joined together in silent prayer, then sung a Taize chant. From this perspective, it is uniting. If someone there was not allowed to, I imagine the vibe may have been somewhat less “together”
There is a great little book on this, sadly now out of print, but you can usaully get it through Amazon, called ‘Our God has No Favourites’by Anne Primavesi and Jennifer Henderson pub Burn & Oates (UK) or resource Publications (USA) in 1989.
Im not sure what your getting at but I cant stand the gayness (and I use that term not in the homosexual sense) of this act in church and it does seem like an act to me.
Not being raised in a church meant I had no idea what these people were doing and I still think its a little weird especially the language. I mean when Jesus did it I get the impression it was not a flattened Ice cream cone and some awful berry juice and I also doubt they all stood in a circle holding hands.
This is such an interesting one Jon…..nice to see you back and doing such a great job!
When I spent christmas in kuwait (not recommended by the way) the only midnight service I could get to was in the catholic cathedral. It broke my heart that night not to be able to take communion. But as much as I love the mass I can’t believe I can partake in it.
For what its worth the most moving communion I ever took part in was with beer and watermelon…not sure whether everyone would be happy with that though
I recently invited our church children to partake in communion so long as their parents were happy with for them to do so - the basis being that when Jesus shared the passover meal with his disciples on the night of his betrayal the disciples didn’t have a clue what it signified or what Jesus was on about so there is no need to acquire a certain level of knowledge about what is happening just so long as someone is there to share the story of what it is about. Some people were not happy about it, but hey that’s church.
just weird to look at this picture today, am a bit spaced out and the pic of communion just seems to symbolise our struggles to be in communion with God and each other, I tend to live under a vague feeling of being excluded and damned most of the time, and think of Christ as the only way to bridge that, not that I’m able to step over any bridges, or take down any barricades, - it’s just that he says he can
Jesus had an open table policy. Even Judas was invited. There is an interesting chapter about it in ‘we do not presume’ by Richard Giles.
This book really amuses me because it has a remit of ‘basic introduction to anglicanism’ but he writes the last two chapters about his own personal hobby horses.
He would have the altar by the door and he font further in. The eucharist is where we enter into worship. He also points out that it is a place where Jesus choses to mee us and who are we to hold the keys to this?
For me communion is first and foremost a simplistic act of uniting with Jesus and remembering how he made this possible…and of course uniting with other Christians. I remember one service in particular, where the symbols of wine and bread were not only depicted as representing blood and body, but, we were asked to consider the choice of the elements used, both derived from God given natural produce, both processed by ‘man’ to further strengthen the unity between Him and us……
I ca’t get away from the feeling that we have somehow lost what Jesus was saying here…he was at a passover meal and would have shared the rest of the parts of that with his disciples as well surely? Bread and wine were a part of that as well as lamb and herbs etc. Breaking bread was what folk did in Israel to celebrate community - thats why Jesus got so much hassle from the religious folk - because he broke bread with the community, in all its color, and not just the clean and ceremonially clean. Yes it’s really important; but God has a whole load to say when we ceremonialise stuff that was meant to be so much simpler?
I think that is the beauty of Jesus instructions. On one level it is a sense of remembering him in each meal we partake in when community is gathered together. On another he was writing himself into the salvation given to Israel through the passover. On another he was specifically using bread and wine to illustrate the salvation he is offering.
We miss the words he uses. He does not say “take this bread it symbolises….” or “take this bread it becomes….” he says “this is…”
Hey Rob just how much work are you getting done? - somehow an online conversation where we ‘virtually break bread’ seems a pretty good way of doing community - pass the wine!
I’m getting tonnes of work done. Just done my Gaz Topp impression for 30 minutes and settled them down to some work.
I felt poo yesterday so didn’t have anything to drink and just went to bed… on my 30th birthday. I think today may be salt lemon and lime time. Would you like one of them afterwards too
Communion to me is dividing, but thats an experience im left with after attending a catholic school. I feel so blessed now to go to a church where it is uniting.
Its strange how one thing can be so different to all sorts of people… certainly something to think about. Thanks,
Hi Sas (3)! And hi Guys (’cos I’m doing a spot of passing through, too) (though that makes me sound like a gippy tummy, doesn’t it?)
Just wondering where communion is taking place this minute. Probably Burma. Anywhere that bread and wine is considered as precious as life, and life as precious.
About communion dividing and uniting, it feels to me a bit like ebb and flow, particle and wave, so I’m with Shelly (11) and Robb (1 there. Happy belated birthday, Robb. Young scamp.
Comment by steve lancaster — May 7, 2008 @ 12:30 pm
Hey, I made a smiley and I didn’t even mean to! - Robb (post eighteen) I meant…
Comment by steve lancaster — May 7, 2008 @ 12:32 pm
aah robb, i remember 30… it was a while ago now. happy birthday!
I grew up in the Catholic tradition – catholic schools, confession, holy communion, the usual…
Like most of my mates from school (Irish, Spanish, Italian), we knocked Mass on the head in our early teens – our parents weren’t too bothered by this as I guess they didn’t see church as the whole deal, only part of it.
At 24, I went looking for God and ended up in a Pentecostal church where they told me that my Catholicism was fake and that Catholic communion (transubstantiation) was a heresy.
I swallowed this whole.
At 32, married and with kids, I left the Pentecostal church that had it all sussed.
A year later, my whole clan went over to Spain to attend a young relative’s first holy communion. I’m not sure why, but I also went forward and took Catholic communion for the 1st time in nearly 20 years.
It was one of the most moving, healing, and uniting experiences of church I have ever known. And, whether it was in the host, the hymns, or the hail mary… I don’t really care. Jesus was there.
Cheers guys. I am going to dinner tonight with friends so I shall be remembering Jesus in the fried chicken and tequila
Joe, what you say is brilliant. I come from a catholic family. My mothers priest knows that I am a committed anglican and insists that I take communion when I am at his church “because that was all just a load of sin from the past”. However, as a committed christian who teaches RE in a RC school I patiently cross my arms whilst the little athiests in year 9 go and receive.
Both sides of the same coin. One is the most unifying experiences and speaks beautifully of the grace and reconcilliation offered by mothers priest. The other is exclusive and divisive between me and the other christians I work with an share theology with for 8 hours a day.
I remember visiting a Catholic church and being told that I couldn’t take communion. I was really sad by that because these were my brothers and sisters, I am a Christian. When I was in Chicago, I visited my friend’s church (non-denominational) and they had communion. I went up, took it, and I felt united with my Christian family all over the world. It felt great.
Communion: do you take it literally, or metaphorically? how often should you do it? What should you be required to wear when partaking in communion,prayer covering or no covering? What should be said before communion, can unbaptized people partake in it….and tons of other issues that’ll keep us from paying attention to Darfur for years.
This whole issue causes me great sadness as it does many other Roman Catholics. A few years back, my hubby, whose association with religion had only previously extended to a few funny little churches his two grandmothers had been to, took on Christian status. He would never have described himself as anything more than agnostic, if pushed to it. When he discovered his faith, I urged him to become an Anglican as they had been so welcoming to both of us and we had made some lovely Anglican friends. And I also thought he could do without the hassle of being a Catholic. But as much as I love to be enriched by people of other traditions, I couldn’t not be a Catholic. It is so tied up with who I am, it would be a painful wrench to leave it behind. So I am forever the square peg. I sometimes break my church’s rules and take communion in other churches at their invitation. My priest told me it was a matter for my own conscience and that he would not refuse me in our church. But Phil, who actually goes to my church more than his own, cannot receive communion. That really upsets me (although it was my encouragement which brought this situation about, so I have brought it upon myself). The best occasions for me were, firstly, our 25th wedding anniversary when we renewed our vows and the priest said he could receive; and secondly, when we were in Assisi and Rome and the priest let him receive every day. Other than that it is quite upsetting, especially if we go to church as a family and I and my two daughters can receive and he can’t. I echo Robb in that when I hear, “Lord I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I am healed” it has a hollow irony.
Quite like the Quaker take on this which, as I understand it, suggests that every meal is sacramental - means we can enter it at the level that fits for us. Was very moved (as a non-Catholic) when I was working at Glastonbury last year and the Priest allowed me (and other non-Catholics) to take the Mass – felt very unifying. dave
i love it when priests and ministers have the bottle to go with their consciense. taking institutional rules as guidelines and improvising sounds like a way forward. i guess most are far too frightened to do anything that ‘radical.’ but a big ‘up’ to the ones who do!
So what if we’re disallow from the holy communion?
By being treated so, are we branded non-Christian, or are we treated as if we’re not brothers/sisters in Christ?
It’s already feels alienated from such a treatment, so are we going to do the same to them?
What is that to you?
What is being disallowed Holy communion to you?
I never cared about the rules set in the Roman Catholic churches, where they only allow you to partake if you believe that the bread and wine is the actual body and blood of Jesus. (not sure about this, but that’s what I’ve been told) But I never took it, simply because it’s their rules, and that is how I honour them, that is how I love them.
So what if you’re allowed, what if you’re not?
Is being accepted by others more important than you accepting others?
I like Richard Rohr (RC priest) on this - when you the protestants (I’m prot) “got all heady, intellectual about it, they threw out the idea that the bread became the body of Christ. Trouble was, you also threw out the truth that this body of yours can become the incarnated Christ”, and we allowed our thinking to divide secular and sacred.
Well I was brought up salvation army, who do no sacraments! Tho I left at 18, I’ve always felt kind of distant from communion. It seems to me that after all his teaching Jesus said, “ok guys, I know you haven’t got it so here’s something REALLY simple - this bread, this wine - whenever you use these everyday things, REMEMBER”
What first came to mind before reading the caption was “hey, a jello shot and pan dulce!”
This of course led to rigorous self-examination like that before communion to make sure I don’t have a grudge against someone I’m about to break bread with.
And would it be wrong to take communion with a jello shot and pan dulce?
-Sam
#39 “So what if you’re allowed, what if you’re not?
Is being accepted by others more important than you accepting others?”
Thanks Zefi, that challenges me. The Catholic church wouldn’t accept my vocation as a womanminister either, and neither would many protestants and I’d like to say it never bothers me any more but occasionally it still does - and not being able to receive mass does a little too.
And the fact that when I meet Muslims I mustn’t offer to shake hands bothers me occasionally.
You are spot on though. So what? I’ve to concentrate on loving others not being loved. I’ll make that my thought for today
Hi, Ben, in answer to your question I will quote from the cathechism of the Catholic church:
Ecclesial communities derived from the Reformation and saparated from the Catholic Chruch ‘have not preserved the proper reality of the Eucharistic mystery in its fullness, especially because of the absence of the sacrament of Holy Orders.’ It is for this reason that Eucharistic intercommunion wht these communities is not possible for the Catholic Church.
Apparently that comes from the papal document Unitatis Redintegratio. So basically, if you’re not a Catholic, you can’t take Holy Communion in a Catholic church and I, as a Catholic, am not allowed to take Holy Communion in other churches. But yeah, good question, what is the biblical backing? It is more complex than that with Catholicism. Alongside the Bible we also have tradition (the great teachers such as Augustine, Thomas Aquinas and the like) and Magisterium (Rome) which has, over the centuries, shaped the way that we do things. I’m not ‘dissing’ all that. I do think that there is a vast amount of wisdom in my church, which people just forget about when they get caught up in issues like the full communion/Mary and other ‘red herrings (to coin a phrase!). And that is why I flout the rules occasionally, because I do not understand why it is such a huge issue and I feel it flies in the face of Christ’s teaching. I have to say the communion thing upsets me far more than it does Phil. He makes no fuss about not receiving in my church but enjoys any opportunity he does get to participate. Perhaps I should learn something from him.
what i find sad is… all denominations and traditions have their good and faithful christian folks in them + they all have their pew fodder. it seems that so long as you’re signed up to them you can partake in the eucharist and share it with people who have less in common with you than many of those who you are not allowed to partake with.
i found i could not become orthodox as it would disallow me from communion with those who brought me up in my faith… people who i truly believe to be better examples of god’s love than me. i guess i could always break the rules, i’ve always done that in the past… but why would i join something knowing that at its core was something i knew i couldn’t subscribe to?
hey dadube no.15… was that in croatia with jonny baker? i think in the absence of anything else beer and watermelon could be very fitting. creativity is one of the ways we image the creator. once again i think it’s more about the heart of the matter than the details. a handful of rice and a cup of water is fine if that’s what you have. i wish i’d experienced that… jonny found it profound i remember him telling me.
I remember the arguement raging between trainee anglican priests. What if you crashed a plane on a desert island (lost had just started) and had no priest. Would Jesus want you to share communion or not*. All good theological fun
As an asside, all churches use scripture tradition and reason. Any that tell you different are lying. They may claim that they are being ‘purely biblical’ but that is bollocks. There is no one on earth who can dissociate their experiences and have just the book in her head. I suppose you could feed scripture into a computer and see what judgements it makes. It would certainly be interesting.
“Our church is getting back to the model of the early church”
- so you don’t have a bible and you are in schism over all sorts of teaching. You don’t have a concept of trinity yet as that is a few centuries away but you do use Deacons, Priests and Bishops**. Interesting. I wonder what the Apocrypha has to say about it. At least we are all in agreement that that is scripture.
*this was of course all volatile because of the methodists present and the historical context of Wesley ordaining priests without being a bishop. Lets throw that in for good measure
** Translate the greek however you want, it will still always come back to deakonoi, presbyteroi and Episkopoi [appologies for my speelong if it is wrong, I have literacy problems in English!!]
“Our church is getting back to the model of the early church”… i’ve heard that nonsense many times before. no respect for the martyrs and a complete oversimplification of the early church. utter rubbish.
I once was a member of a church which tried to do just that ["Our church is getting back...] and whilst it did suffer from a lack of the rich tradition it did also gain from a good cleaning of the old cobwebs…
There wasn’t any demeaning of martyrs/saints but a realisation that we are the saints of today is a positive remembering of who we are.
On another note I once visited a RC church with a mixed group of traditions and the guy just said that he wasn’t going to ask any questions but if we knew Jesus as our Saviour we should feel welcome to join in with the communion - it was a terribly spiritual and uniting event that hasn’t been dulled by not having that invitation in other RC churches. Painful as those times were.
Whether it is in practice or not - the sharing of bread and wine should be uniting if only in the sense that we all do it…
Comment by Free to think, free to believe... — May 21, 2008 @ 9:35 pm
Don’t start me on this one! Love the way you’ve got that translucent quality to your wine, though.
Comment by Carole — May 6, 2008 @ 10:31 pm
I think I may have mentioned this in the rant…
Comment by Robb — May 6, 2008 @ 10:40 pm
As someone considering going over to the Catholic Church, I’d still want everyone who wants to share it, to take it.
I think Jesus wants EVERYONE to feed on his body and blood, and I do mean Everyone.
Hi Guys! Don’t know if I’m back or if this is a flying visit - but, Hi Guys.
Love you
Sas x
Comment by sarah — May 6, 2008 @ 10:46 pm
Hi Sas,
Great to see you here! Hope you are well. And I agree! xx
Comment by Carole — May 6, 2008 @ 10:51 pm
So true
Comment by youthworkerpete — May 6, 2008 @ 10:52 pm
Sas - that was why I never went from Anglican to Catholic.
Comment by becky — May 6, 2008 @ 10:57 pm
hi sas!!!
this is the reason i could not become orthodox.
Comment by jonbirch — May 6, 2008 @ 11:19 pm
This is the reason I am a square peg in a round hole.
Comment by Carole — May 6, 2008 @ 11:29 pm
Years ago I heard a sermon by Jack Hayford on baptism. He said that this practice, intended to unite Christians, has become one of the greater sources of division. He gave a wonderful sermon, and when the radio program ended, I realized that he never once described the procedure used at his church - dunking vs sprinkling, etc. Not a bit.
I was very impressed with that sermon.
Comment by A S Hodel — May 7, 2008 @ 12:05 am
I’ve just gotten home from Communion, and I was thinking how great it was. After everyone receiving, we all joined together in silent prayer, then sung a Taize chant. From this perspective, it is uniting. If someone there was not allowed to, I imagine the vibe may have been somewhat less “together”
Comment by Christopher — May 7, 2008 @ 2:03 am
My answer is “both”.
Comment by shelly — May 7, 2008 @ 3:24 am
There is a great little book on this, sadly now out of print, but you can usaully get it through Amazon, called ‘Our God has No Favourites’by Anne Primavesi and Jennifer Henderson pub Burn & Oates (UK) or resource Publications (USA) in 1989.
Comment by Catriona — May 7, 2008 @ 6:46 am
sometimes i go to a catholic mass
because i can’t join in
and
maybe it’s good for me to remember that?
every now and then…..
Comment by gilly — May 7, 2008 @ 6:53 am
Im not sure what your getting at but I cant stand the gayness (and I use that term not in the homosexual sense) of this act in church and it does seem like an act to me.
Not being raised in a church meant I had no idea what these people were doing and I still think its a little weird especially the language. I mean when Jesus did it I get the impression it was not a flattened Ice cream cone and some awful berry juice and I also doubt they all stood in a circle holding hands.
United? I doubt it.
Comment by dennis coburn — May 7, 2008 @ 7:04 am
This is such an interesting one Jon…..nice to see you back and doing such a great job!
When I spent christmas in kuwait (not recommended by the way) the only midnight service I could get to was in the catholic cathedral. It broke my heart that night not to be able to take communion. But as much as I love the mass I can’t believe I can partake in it.
For what its worth the most moving communion I ever took part in was with beer and watermelon…not sure whether everyone would be happy with that though
Comment by dadube — May 7, 2008 @ 7:12 am
I recently invited our church children to partake in communion so long as their parents were happy with for them to do so - the basis being that when Jesus shared the passover meal with his disciples on the night of his betrayal the disciples didn’t have a clue what it signified or what Jesus was on about so there is no need to acquire a certain level of knowledge about what is happening just so long as someone is there to share the story of what it is about. Some people were not happy about it, but hey that’s church.
Comment by marcus — May 7, 2008 @ 7:17 am
just weird to look at this picture today, am a bit spaced out and the pic of communion just seems to symbolise our struggles to be in communion with God and each other, I tend to live under a vague feeling of being excluded and damned most of the time, and think of Christ as the only way to bridge that, not that I’m able to step over any bridges, or take down any barricades, - it’s just that he says he can
great to see you on the blog Sas
Comment by subo — May 7, 2008 @ 8:30 am
Jesus had an open table policy. Even Judas was invited. There is an interesting chapter about it in ‘we do not presume’ by Richard Giles.
This book really amuses me because it has a remit of ‘basic introduction to anglicanism’ but he writes the last two chapters about his own personal hobby horses.
He would have the altar by the door and he font further in. The eucharist is where we enter into worship. He also points out that it is a place where Jesus choses to mee us and who are we to hold the keys to this?
Comment by Robb — May 7, 2008 @ 8:44 am
For me communion is first and foremost a simplistic act of uniting with Jesus and remembering how he made this possible…and of course uniting with other Christians. I remember one service in particular, where the symbols of wine and bread were not only depicted as representing blood and body, but, we were asked to consider the choice of the elements used, both derived from God given natural produce, both processed by ‘man’ to further strengthen the unity between Him and us……
Comment by Ezra — May 7, 2008 @ 9:31 am
I ca’t get away from the feeling that we have somehow lost what Jesus was saying here…he was at a passover meal and would have shared the rest of the parts of that with his disciples as well surely? Bread and wine were a part of that as well as lamb and herbs etc. Breaking bread was what folk did in Israel to celebrate community - thats why Jesus got so much hassle from the religious folk - because he broke bread with the community, in all its color, and not just the clean and ceremonially clean. Yes it’s really important; but God has a whole load to say when we ceremonialise stuff that was meant to be so much simpler?
Comment by drewman — May 7, 2008 @ 9:35 am
I think that is the beauty of Jesus instructions. On one level it is a sense of remembering him in each meal we partake in when community is gathered together. On another he was writing himself into the salvation given to Israel through the passover. On another he was specifically using bread and wine to illustrate the salvation he is offering.
We miss the words he uses. He does not say “take this bread it symbolises….” or “take this bread it becomes….” he says “this is…”
Comment by Robb — May 7, 2008 @ 9:46 am
Hey Rob just how much work are you getting done? - somehow an online conversation where we ‘virtually break bread’ seems a pretty good way of doing community - pass the wine!
Comment by drewman — May 7, 2008 @ 10:02 am
I’m getting tonnes of work done. Just done my Gaz Topp impression for 30 minutes and settled them down to some work.
I felt poo yesterday so didn’t have anything to drink and just went to bed… on my 30th birthday. I think today may be salt lemon and lime time. Would you like one of them afterwards too
Comment by Robb — May 7, 2008 @ 10:35 am
Communion to me is dividing, but thats an experience im left with after attending a catholic school. I feel so blessed now to go to a church where it is uniting.
Its strange how one thing can be so different to all sorts of people… certainly something to think about. Thanks,
Comment by Rachel — May 7, 2008 @ 11:42 am
Hi Sas (3)! And hi Guys (’cos I’m doing a spot of passing through, too) (though that makes me sound like a gippy tummy, doesn’t it?)
Just wondering where communion is taking place this minute. Probably Burma. Anywhere that bread and wine is considered as precious as life, and life as precious.
About communion dividing and uniting, it feels to me a bit like ebb and flow, particle and wave, so I’m with Shelly (11) and Robb (1
there. Happy belated birthday, Robb. Young scamp.
Comment by steve lancaster — May 7, 2008 @ 12:30 pm
Hey, I made a smiley and I didn’t even mean to!
- Robb (post eighteen) I meant…
Comment by steve lancaster — May 7, 2008 @ 12:32 pm
aah robb, i remember 30… it was a while ago now. happy birthday!
Comment by jonbirch — May 7, 2008 @ 12:54 pm
Happy Birthday Robb
Comment by drewman — May 7, 2008 @ 1:10 pm
I grew up in the Catholic tradition – catholic schools, confession, holy communion, the usual…
Like most of my mates from school (Irish, Spanish, Italian), we knocked Mass on the head in our early teens – our parents weren’t too bothered by this as I guess they didn’t see church as the whole deal, only part of it.
At 24, I went looking for God and ended up in a Pentecostal church where they told me that my Catholicism was fake and that Catholic communion (transubstantiation) was a heresy.
I swallowed this whole.
At 32, married and with kids, I left the Pentecostal church that had it all sussed.
A year later, my whole clan went over to Spain to attend a young relative’s first holy communion. I’m not sure why, but I also went forward and took Catholic communion for the 1st time in nearly 20 years.
It was one of the most moving, healing, and uniting experiences of church I have ever known. And, whether it was in the host, the hymns, or the hail mary… I don’t really care. Jesus was there.
Comment by Joe — May 7, 2008 @ 1:33 pm
Cheers guys. I am going to dinner tonight with friends so I shall be remembering Jesus in the fried chicken and tequila
Joe, what you say is brilliant. I come from a catholic family. My mothers priest knows that I am a committed anglican and insists that I take communion when I am at his church “because that was all just a load of sin from the past”. However, as a committed christian who teaches RE in a RC school I patiently cross my arms whilst the little athiests in year 9 go and receive.
Both sides of the same coin. One is the most unifying experiences and speaks beautifully of the grace and reconcilliation offered by mothers priest. The other is exclusive and divisive between me and the other christians I work with an share theology with for 8 hours a day.
Comment by Robb — May 7, 2008 @ 2:43 pm
Both?
Uniting the sheep, dividing between em and the goat?
Comment by zefi — May 7, 2008 @ 4:06 pm
Happy birthday to yooou! Happy birthday to yoooou! Happy birthday dear Ro-obb, Happy birthday to yooou!
Only 30, eh? but with so much wisdom I thought you must be at least 90! ‘Ave a goodun! x
Comment by Carole — May 7, 2008 @ 4:30 pm
I remember visiting a Catholic church and being told that I couldn’t take communion. I was really sad by that because these were my brothers and sisters, I am a Christian. When I was in Chicago, I visited my friend’s church (non-denominational) and they had communion. I went up, took it, and I felt united with my Christian family all over the world. It felt great.
Comment by Jessica Denise — May 7, 2008 @ 4:31 pm
Communion: do you take it literally, or metaphorically? how often should you do it? What should you be required to wear when partaking in communion,prayer covering or no covering? What should be said before communion, can unbaptized people partake in it….and tons of other issues that’ll keep us from paying attention to Darfur for years.
Comment by Janelle — May 7, 2008 @ 4:42 pm
a very good point very well made janelle.
Comment by jonbirch — May 7, 2008 @ 4:47 pm
This whole issue causes me great sadness as it does many other Roman Catholics. A few years back, my hubby, whose association with religion had only previously extended to a few funny little churches his two grandmothers had been to, took on Christian status. He would never have described himself as anything more than agnostic, if pushed to it. When he discovered his faith, I urged him to become an Anglican as they had been so welcoming to both of us and we had made some lovely Anglican friends. And I also thought he could do without the hassle of being a Catholic. But as much as I love to be enriched by people of other traditions, I couldn’t not be a Catholic. It is so tied up with who I am, it would be a painful wrench to leave it behind. So I am forever the square peg. I sometimes break my church’s rules and take communion in other churches at their invitation. My priest told me it was a matter for my own conscience and that he would not refuse me in our church. But Phil, who actually goes to my church more than his own, cannot receive communion. That really upsets me (although it was my encouragement which brought this situation about, so I have brought it upon myself). The best occasions for me were, firstly, our 25th wedding anniversary when we renewed our vows and the priest said he could receive; and secondly, when we were in Assisi and Rome and the priest let him receive every day. Other than that it is quite upsetting, especially if we go to church as a family and I and my two daughters can receive and he can’t. I echo Robb in that when I hear, “Lord I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I am healed” it has a hollow irony.
Comment by Carole — May 7, 2008 @ 5:26 pm
Quite like the Quaker take on this which, as I understand it, suggests that every meal is sacramental - means we can enter it at the level that fits for us. Was very moved (as a non-Catholic) when I was working at Glastonbury last year and the Priest allowed me (and other non-Catholics) to take the Mass – felt very unifying. dave
Comment by Dave — May 7, 2008 @ 5:58 pm
i love it when priests and ministers have the bottle to go with their consciense. taking institutional rules as guidelines and improvising sounds like a way forward. i guess most are far too frightened to do anything that ‘radical.’ but a big ‘up’ to the ones who do!
Comment by jonbirch — May 7, 2008 @ 6:21 pm
So what if we’re disallow from the holy communion?
By being treated so, are we branded non-Christian, or are we treated as if we’re not brothers/sisters in Christ?
It’s already feels alienated from such a treatment, so are we going to do the same to them?
What is that to you?
What is being disallowed Holy communion to you?
I never cared about the rules set in the Roman Catholic churches, where they only allow you to partake if you believe that the bread and wine is the actual body and blood of Jesus. (not sure about this, but that’s what I’ve been told) But I never took it, simply because it’s their rules, and that is how I honour them, that is how I love them.
So what if you’re allowed, what if you’re not?
Is being accepted by others more important than you accepting others?
Comment by zefi — May 7, 2008 @ 7:04 pm
I like Richard Rohr (RC priest) on this - when you the protestants (I’m prot) “got all heady, intellectual about it, they threw out the idea that the bread became the body of Christ. Trouble was, you also threw out the truth that this body of yours can become the incarnated Christ”, and we allowed our thinking to divide secular and sacred.
Well I was brought up salvation army, who do no sacraments! Tho I left at 18, I’ve always felt kind of distant from communion. It seems to me that after all his teaching Jesus said, “ok guys, I know you haven’t got it so here’s something REALLY simple - this bread, this wine - whenever you use these everyday things, REMEMBER”
Comment by Chris F — May 7, 2008 @ 7:57 pm
HI JON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Comment by sarah — May 7, 2008 @ 8:58 pm
hi Steve L!
KISSES ALL!!!!!
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Comment by sarah — May 7, 2008 @ 8:59 pm
Is being accepted by others more important than you accepting others?
Surely this statement works in both directions.
Comment by Robb — May 7, 2008 @ 11:01 pm
What first came to mind before reading the caption was “hey, a jello shot and pan dulce!”
This of course led to rigorous self-examination like that before communion to make sure I don’t have a grudge against someone I’m about to break bread with.
And would it be wrong to take communion with a jello shot and pan dulce?
-Sam
Comment by samwrites2 — May 8, 2008 @ 3:20 am
#39 “So what if you’re allowed, what if you’re not?
Is being accepted by others more important than you accepting others?”
Thanks Zefi, that challenges me. The Catholic church wouldn’t accept my vocation as a womanminister either, and neither would many protestants and I’d like to say it never bothers me any more but occasionally it still does - and not being able to receive mass does a little too.
And the fact that when I meet Muslims I mustn’t offer to shake hands bothers me occasionally.
You are spot on though. So what? I’ve to concentrate on loving others not being loved. I’ll make that my thought for today
Ax
Comment by AnneDroid — May 8, 2008 @ 7:41 am
…sorry, that should read Muslim men…
Comment by AnneDroid — May 8, 2008 @ 6:13 pm
“Is being accepted by others more important than you accepting others?”
no it’s not… good point zefi.
Comment by jonbirch — May 9, 2008 @ 6:36 pm
reading post 36 and i have to ask. why would u not be allowed to take communion in another church? what is the biblical backing to this?
i have communion in a house with a few mates on wednesdays, i have it at other churches, i have it at my church.
Comment by ben — May 10, 2008 @ 1:30 am
Hi, Ben, in answer to your question I will quote from the cathechism of the Catholic church:
Ecclesial communities derived from the Reformation and saparated from the Catholic Chruch ‘have not preserved the proper reality of the Eucharistic mystery in its fullness, especially because of the absence of the sacrament of Holy Orders.’ It is for this reason that Eucharistic intercommunion wht these communities is not possible for the Catholic Church.
Apparently that comes from the papal document Unitatis Redintegratio. So basically, if you’re not a Catholic, you can’t take Holy Communion in a Catholic church and I, as a Catholic, am not allowed to take Holy Communion in other churches. But yeah, good question, what is the biblical backing? It is more complex than that with Catholicism. Alongside the Bible we also have tradition (the great teachers such as Augustine, Thomas Aquinas and the like) and Magisterium (Rome) which has, over the centuries, shaped the way that we do things. I’m not ‘dissing’ all that. I do think that there is a vast amount of wisdom in my church, which people just forget about when they get caught up in issues like the full communion/Mary and other ‘red herrings (to coin a phrase!). And that is why I flout the rules occasionally, because I do not understand why it is such a huge issue and I feel it flies in the face of Christ’s teaching. I have to say the communion thing upsets me far more than it does Phil. He makes no fuss about not receiving in my church but enjoys any opportunity he does get to participate. Perhaps I should learn something from him.
Comment by Carole — May 10, 2008 @ 8:18 am
what i find sad is… all denominations and traditions have their good and faithful christian folks in them + they all have their pew fodder. it seems that so long as you’re signed up to them you can partake in the eucharist and share it with people who have less in common with you than many of those who you are not allowed to partake with.
i found i could not become orthodox as it would disallow me from communion with those who brought me up in my faith… people who i truly believe to be better examples of god’s love than me. i guess i could always break the rules, i’ve always done that in the past… but why would i join something knowing that at its core was something i knew i couldn’t subscribe to?
hey dadube no.15… was that in croatia with jonny baker? i think in the absence of anything else beer and watermelon could be very fitting. creativity is one of the ways we image the creator. once again i think it’s more about the heart of the matter than the details. a handful of rice and a cup of water is fine if that’s what you have. i wish i’d experienced that… jonny found it profound i remember him telling me.
Comment by jonbirch — May 10, 2008 @ 9:10 am
I remember the arguement raging between trainee anglican priests. What if you crashed a plane on a desert island (lost had just started) and had no priest. Would Jesus want you to share communion or not*. All good theological fun
As an asside, all churches use scripture tradition and reason. Any that tell you different are lying. They may claim that they are being ‘purely biblical’ but that is bollocks. There is no one on earth who can dissociate their experiences and have just the book in her head. I suppose you could feed scripture into a computer and see what judgements it makes. It would certainly be interesting.
“Our church is getting back to the model of the early church”
- so you don’t have a bible and you are in schism over all sorts of teaching. You don’t have a concept of trinity yet as that is a few centuries away but you do use Deacons, Priests and Bishops**. Interesting. I wonder what the Apocrypha has to say about it. At least we are all in agreement that that is scripture.
*this was of course all volatile because of the methodists present and the historical context of Wesley ordaining priests without being a bishop. Lets throw that in for good measure
** Translate the greek however you want, it will still always come back to deakonoi, presbyteroi and Episkopoi [appologies for my speelong if it is wrong, I have literacy problems in English!!]
Comment by Robb — May 10, 2008 @ 9:43 am
jon - yep it sure was!
Comment by dadube — May 10, 2008 @ 2:59 pm
“Our church is getting back to the model of the early church”… i’ve heard that nonsense many times before. no respect for the martyrs and a complete oversimplification of the early church. utter rubbish.
Comment by jonbirch — May 11, 2008 @ 4:51 pm
I once was a member of a church which tried to do just that ["Our church is getting back...] and whilst it did suffer from a lack of the rich tradition it did also gain from a good cleaning of the old cobwebs…
There wasn’t any demeaning of martyrs/saints but a realisation that we are the saints of today is a positive remembering of who we are.
On another note I once visited a RC church with a mixed group of traditions and the guy just said that he wasn’t going to ask any questions but if we knew Jesus as our Saviour we should feel welcome to join in with the communion - it was a terribly spiritual and uniting event that hasn’t been dulled by not having that invitation in other RC churches. Painful as those times were.
Whether it is in practice or not - the sharing of bread and wine should be uniting if only in the sense that we all do it…
Comment by Free to think, free to believe... — May 21, 2008 @ 9:35 pm
indeed.
Comment by jonbirch — May 21, 2008 @ 11:42 pm
Oh so so right on target
Deacon & Usher were here
deaconandusher.wordpress.com
Comment by deaconandusher — May 24, 2008 @ 1:55 am
aldara…
cheap no prescription aldara…
Trackback by cheap aldara — June 27, 2008 @ 8:10 pm