I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment, but I wonder wherether, for some, it would also be possible to say “Then I have never fully embraced/accepted it”, instead. It’s kind of a semantic point, but experience can be very misleading. God’s perfect love is available for all in Jesus, and the job of the guy in black (and I’m about to become on!), and it’s the job of all Christians, is to avoid getting in the way of ourselves and others embracing, accepting and therefore experiencing it.
You now have my 2p. Use it wisely. Or frivilously. Either way it won’t get you very much.
I would say my experience has been more of what Richard describes. But then I guess it depends on what the fear is of. If it is the fear of God then it is “perfect lve” that casts it out. I guess if someone applies the verse into bizarre contexts and other situations it becomes harder. If you aren’t afeard about falling off a cliff you are a pilock.
And probably a dead pillock.
It reminds me of worship song lyrics like “and in Your Presence, our problems disappear…” and “when we see You we find strength to face the day… in Your Presence all our fears are washed away, washed awaaaaay”
Lovely idea, but a bit simplistic, for me. I need a bit of a kick up the arse sometimes to remind me of God’s goodness and ‘bigness’, rather than platitude. But there are some good songs too!
To me this means that because God is Love and I have love in my life when it comes to fear I will take the RISK’s therefore the fear is still there but because of God the fear is just a little bit different …… that probably makes no sense at all.
I wonder if what you are getting at is that fear is a physiological and psychological response to a situation. It isn’t possible to be unafraid of everything. It is possible to be foolhardy but it isn’t possible to voluntarily switch of those natural responses. Fight or flight is always going to be there. We can be sure of our place with God. We can’t be sure that we will survive a bullet. We can be sure that we will be with God and that [example] putting ourselves in front of a bullet for others is OK in spite of our fear. We can override the physiological and psychological response but it is a difficult conscious decision.
I’d like to swap the word ‘perfect’ for ‘accepting’,
as for me – growing up in a christian environment where the expectations were ‘to be perfect’, I lived under a cloud of condemnation, expecting punishment and holding my breath in fear.
slowly learning to accept I don’t need to be perfect, and I’m lovable because of my value to God, I’ve got to a place where I can talk to God about my fears.
i’ve still got plenty of fear, it does help though finding you can work with them, and i can ask for support
Can you call it irrational if it is a choice you make? If you decide to go against your fear for some reason is it irrational. Sometimes fear in itelf is irrational. Can we be all phobic for a bit?
dennis… i certainly think they’re wired differently and i reckon it might be genetic. i say this because i lived next door to a young adventurer, he was fearless like his father and grandfather before him. he was always jumping of clifton suspension bridge in bristol… he’d do a small count and then release his parachute. anyone who is familiar with this bridge will know just how scary that’d be to usual folk. the last time i saw him he was training at the university for a single man expedition to the north pole, armed only with a gun. he was aiming to be the youngest to achieve this feat. he had never experienced fight or flight in his life. as someone who has anxiety and lives near to panic attacks i can only suggest that my chemical make-up and balance is very different. neither of us is ‘the usual’ but i think i’d rather have his ‘deficiency’ than my ‘excess’. i think that although circumstance has a lot to do with the way we are and become, there is much that is preprogrammed into our genes… my circumstances have made it possible for chemical unbalance in a way that wouldn’t necessarily be the case for others. with the right triggers this was always going to be a weakness. my situation too is one passed down through generations from the evidence i have… it seems i am worse hit than those who went before (although i can’t know about some of my ancestors for sure).
all creatures have a developed amygdala which is where the instinct for fight or flight is located, but humans have a very well developed cerebral function which allows us to apply rationale to our situation… in my case i have to fight the tale wagging the dog… and it is more than a struggle sometimes.
would that my fears would magically to go away. the good news is i think i still lead a useful life… just an imprisoned one.
I feel a little misunderstood (nothing unusual for me)
I too am pretty fearless when it comes to most things apart from dogs & ants. What I was getting at was some of the people I know who are lets say Christian who often think its FEARLESS to attack someone’s life / spirituality and feel they have succeeded in fulfilling the Lords work and so feel they have conquered fear. Thats what I meant but as usual I didn’t get myself across.
I think I was also hinting at what actually does it mean by fear.
hi Subo, thanks for your post. I am putting myself under a lot of pressure at the moment “to be perfect” in work and in life. Your comment: “slowly learning to accept I don’t need to be perfect, and I’m lovable because of my value to God, I’ve got to a place where I can talk to God about my fears.” really resonated with me. I think I need to relax with God, and learn to enjoy being accepted.
Ok, I’m new to blogging and this is my first time EVER leaving a comment….so here goes:
I think the “IT” most of us never experience (or understand) is “FEAR”.
What most people call fear is neurotic worry (no offense regarding the panic attacks)….. and true reverence and awe have been replaced by the self centered warm fuzzes.
Not wanting to be cynical – just honest based on my own journey & observations….and noting the fact that the “FEAR of the Lord”, referred to in Prov 1:7, as the “beginning of of all wisdom” is not to be cast out but sought after.
hi denise… and welcome to the blogging world! no offense taken btw… the panic attacks i have are nothing like that. they are sheer terror… nothing less.
i certainly fear god… i think it’d be foolish not to.
hey dennis… i get it. your question ‘what is fear?’ is a good one i think. i’m not sure my peculiarities are what the bible really refers to… although i’m sure unconditional love and support carries me through to a large degree, and i’m sure holds the key to further health improvements as i continue to work out my salvation… which the bible says i’m to do with ‘fear and trembling’. i’ve rambled!
ps. at least i’ve got the ‘fear and trembling bit sussed out’… not sure what i’ve ‘worked out’ though.
10 “If you decide to go against your fear for some reason is it irrational.” – usually called courage isn’t it?
We would dearly like to have control over whatever we fear, and much of life (and our lists of prayer requests) is about this. If we did love perfectly, we would no longer make demands that life (and other people) behaves in a way that pleases us; we would simply be able to trust and not feel compelled to fix everything, including the way I am myself – we would know we have no control anyway, and it would be OK
some ramblings – not in any order I’m afraid.
Some wise chap or chappette once told me that for something to be worthy of fear – it has to be potent and present – ie: the snake needs to be poisonous and slowly climbing your leg. The truck needs to be coming for you and not just a tonka toy. If one or the other is removed then your fear, whilst still real, is irrational.
God is both potent and present so a good thing to be afraid of – Love overcomes fear it does not remove it.
The scariest thing I ever did was jumping off of a high board into a swimming pool. I could not bring myself to step or even jump off so I overbalanced and let gravity join the argument. The point is that using something out of your control to overcome that which is in it works – try God instead of gravity!
So… why is it when we “get Christ” we become diluted enough to believe that everything will be “ok” or work out because God loves us? My thought is that we as Christians are to endure as much suffering as we are to endure as much joy.
This is one of those quotes which I like to think of as a Grasshopper moment (in reference to the 70s TV series Kung Fu). I kind of feel I’m clearly not far enough along my journey of wisdom to understand it yet. I do feel fear, often over the most irrational things – being vomited on – actually quite a valid fear when you work with small children! Cockroaches, big spiders, being found out for the fraud I am, being stuck in a conversation with my dear mum-in-law, being late for work, making a prat of myself in front of others (I’ve been doing aversion therapy for that one for most of my life!). As for the big stuff, I tend not to put my head above the parapet, I just pretend that what is to be feared is not there. But it lurks, nevertheless.
Maybe perfect love will cast out all fear but only once I’ve been perfected. What I fear most of all is the loss of loved ones. When we choose to love – is love a conscious choice or are we swept along in its power? Anyway, when we choose to love, we are accepting the strong likelihood of suffering at some point, the suffering of hurts but most likely loss. We accept the beauty of the human experience, but always the shadow side is there, that if we lose the person that we cherish, we will know unspeakable pain and anguish which will cut to the core of our being. Those are my fears…
Perfect love does cast out fear – this scripture doesn’t say how long it takes though! Sorry – I am not one of those ‘the miracle has not manifested itself yet’ types – just think this scripture may be about an on going process (sanctification) rather than a wham bang casting out type thing – kind of fits with a lot of other scripture that points to our need to see faith as journey rather than arrival I think… the road goes ever on … dave
Jeremy 18 – you’re so right. Suffering is part of the christian life and to be expected. We all fear it I guess, but Eccles is helpful here – “when times are good, be glad; when they are not, remember God sends the one as wel as the other”
“i certainly fear god… i think it’d be foolish not to.”
Jon – your quote reminded me of a line from “The Usual Suspects:
Verbal: “Keaton always said, “I don’t believe in God, but I’m afraid of him.” Well I believe in God, and the only thing that scares me is Keyser Soze.”
cheers folk, it’s good to read your honest responses to living with fear.
I did a load of CBT on my studies last yr., and so should know that ‘anxiety is exaggerating the threat, and underestimating our ability to cope’ – stuff that stuff! also I know Jon, we can use being rational to reassess situations – but doesn’t that work both ways, i.e. if I couldn’t imagine loosing something I care about, well I wouldn’t worry about it – would I?
I did like the things I learnt about mindfulness and body states – i.e., we can increase our natural ‘calm’ body state by using mindfulness, though was hugely disappointed to realise Buddhism is happily incorporated into counselling when Christian practices (although people have found them to be excellent for 1000’s of yrs.) are massively distrusted
Oh pants. Time for some personal honesty with friends.
The only thing that has paralysed me over the years is fear of God and of others. I have feared that God doesn’t like me. I know that I have known him. I know that I have had a relationship with him. I know that I know about him. But I have not known that God likes me because… I fear him.
In “on being liked” by James Alison he talks about ‘liking’ people. [I use Alison’s example but write it in my own words] Anyone can say that they love someone “I love homosexuals and mean ‘I hate homosexuals and want to change them’. It means so much more to say I ‘like’ homosexuals as there is an implicit action”.
My experiences growing up as a misfit in a small town taught me the same thing. ‘God doesn’t like people like you’.
My experiences of coming to faith were in a charismatic but somewhat fundamentalist setting. The pervading wisdom was that ‘God doesn’t like you because you don’t wear a checked shirt tucked into your jeans with short hair and a pair of brown shoes’.
All in all, everything conspired to tell me that “God doesn’t like me. Fear God as he is out to get you. God tolerates you because of what you could be if you were someone else.”
I have come to realise that actually the God of the bible (the guy I read about and follow) doesn’t just love me, he likes me. Much as God in Bruce Almighty* tells Bruce at the end “I know, I made you [quit bragging says Bruce]“, I have needed to start embracing the love God has for me as the fear I had of him made me stupid [in many varied ways].
I am not saying that God wants you to do bad stuff or that God doesn’t want you to do better. In much the same way that a parent loves their child, he is patient. He doesn’t carry a stick, he carries a set of times tables, some toys and your dinner. He is waiting for the day when you turn around and go “OOOOOOh dad dad, I get it!!!” and he gets to turn around and *beams at us* and say “finally…. I knew you would!!”
*No all you biblical scholars out there I haven’t supplanted the scriptures in the name of a vid, it is a metaphor!!
isnt it a confusing verse because nobody quotes the second part? it says fear has to do with punishment.
so in this case, perfect love SHOULD drive out all fear, because Christ has saved us from sin. we no longer fear punishment from God.
dennis no.19. indeed, that’s not how i come across… i have bags of confidence in what i do, but very little in basic things like gravity sometimes… i know it sounds weird. the thing that gets me to greenbelt is that so many of my best friends are there and fortunately it is only an hour away. it really is like being gripped by terror and distrust in even basic things like floors and walls. not nice. perfectly happy getting up in front of 20,000 people though… how weird is that!? oh… and you’re welcome.
One of my favourite verses is where Jesus says “who by worrying can add a single day to his life?” Time spent worrying is so often wasted time. Many of the people I work with have difficulties with anxiety, and the majority of them have underlying beliefs about “not being good enough”. Low self esteem causes so many problems for so many people but I have seen so many people with these difficulties change and grow into more happy and confident people. It does often sadden me that I can’t talk to them about how precious they are to God because I know how important this is to my self esteem!
no probs dr. ruth… i am very grateful for the help i’ve recieved from professionals over the last 14 or so years. i’m not cured, but thanks to people like you and them i am able now to do things that were impossible… like leave the house, eat and drink, basic things like that. it’s not easy but i owe a huge debt of thanks to a good few people now, all of whom have played an important part in helping me find my life again. i have much respect and admiration for the job you and they do. thank you.
I’m with Dave (#21) – there’s no time table on how long it takes for perfect love to cast out fear…
sometimes we are so less apt to give ourselves grace over this stuff that God is. luckily that doesn’t really prevent Him from showering us with it anyway…
here’s a question: what’s perfect love? (biblically defined, of course)
thank you happy. what’s perfect love? is a good question. even the most perfect love would be received by us in an imperfect way and thus not be fully recognised by us.
btw… your name ‘happy’ still always makes me feel happy… amazing how that works.
ps, i agree with dave too.
I didn’t realise just how fearful I was until I became a Christian. Being a control freak and having to cast my cares and not thinking about tomorrow causes me sweaty-palmed moments of panic almost every day.
I always associate the FEAR in the bible with learning to trust God and loving Him as unconditionally as He loves me. Not something I naturally know how to do or how to accept.
The journey to being perfect in His eyes is as individual as we all are; however slowly we travel and no matter how often we stumble.
I think (hope) it matters more that we’re trying on a daily basis to get there; even when the results are not obvious and the goal seems impossibly distant.
hi botticelliwoman… i really do believe the journey is of far more importance than the arriving. those who think they’ve arrived never sound authentic to me, even though they may well have kidded themselves. i believe your hope to be a truly wise way to go… it’s honest for starters and that’s a good basis for any pursuit.
From Adams and Eve’s Journey from Eden to the journeys of Jesus via an exile and an exodus our faith has been all about Journey….
….right up until Constentine converted and the church started becomeing “The Church” and having buildings and presence and stuff.
We were “followers of the way” going on a journey [like Paul]. Then we became “Christians” and started to become end product. Become a “Christian” and your journey is complete.
There’s a verse in the sermon on the mount that trips me up sometimes – “Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.” I chose it as the topic for a term paper I had to write, and it was interesting to me to study that verse in context, and I began to realize that perfection IS love… not dotting your i’s and crossing your t’s and getting it all right all the time – but loving people the way God loves them. Loving your enemies. Loving your neighbors. Loving your neighbors when they feel like your enemies… Unconditionally. So if to be perfect IS to love, then perfect love is… I dunno – half of a thought, but I wonder if God’s idea of perfect love involves us loving each other out of our fears… “here, let me walk with you for a bit…” it’s a little less lonely anyway…
35 and 21, it’s true there is no timetable for casting out fear. But as Robb says in 26, the day comes when we finally “get it” – not ALL of course just the next bit we hadn’t seen yet. So it’s not like the layers of an onion or a journey – it can happen suddenly and completely when the light comes on, the darkness disappears and we SEE once and for all there never was anything to be afraid of
- he gets to turn around and “beams at us” – cheers Rob, it’s like i’d need to be aged in an oak casket for 100 years for this to seep through, yet at the same time i know it on a faint level.
reading your comments made me realise how much of God’s delight in us i filter out!
I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment, but I wonder wherether, for some, it would also be possible to say “Then I have never fully embraced/accepted it”, instead. It’s kind of a semantic point, but experience can be very misleading. God’s perfect love is available for all in Jesus, and the job of the guy in black (and I’m about to become on!), and it’s the job of all Christians, is to avoid getting in the way of ourselves and others embracing, accepting and therefore experiencing it.
You now have my 2p. Use it wisely. Or frivilously. Either way it won’t get you very much.
Comment by Richard — May 8, 2008 @ 9:02 am
I would say my experience has been more of what Richard describes. But then I guess it depends on what the fear is of. If it is the fear of God then it is “perfect lve” that casts it out. I guess if someone applies the verse into bizarre contexts and other situations it becomes harder. If you aren’t afeard about falling off a cliff you are a pilock.
Comment by Robb — May 8, 2008 @ 9:15 am
And probably a dead pillock.
It reminds me of worship song lyrics like “and in Your Presence, our problems disappear…” and “when we see You we find strength to face the day… in Your Presence all our fears are washed away, washed awaaaaay”
Lovely idea, but a bit simplistic, for me. I need a bit of a kick up the arse sometimes to remind me of God’s goodness and ‘bigness’, rather than platitude. But there are some good songs too!
Comment by Richard — May 8, 2008 @ 9:24 am
Less than perfect faith, even at the size of mustard seed would allow you to walk on water.
Love breaks heart. Perhaps that’s why not many are willing to fully embrace it?
Comment by zefi — May 8, 2008 @ 9:26 am
To me this means that because God is Love and I have love in my life when it comes to fear I will take the RISK’s therefore the fear is still there but because of God the fear is just a little bit different …… that probably makes no sense at all.
Comment by dennis coburn — May 8, 2008 @ 10:14 am
I wonder if what you are getting at is that fear is a physiological and psychological response to a situation. It isn’t possible to be unafraid of everything. It is possible to be foolhardy but it isn’t possible to voluntarily switch of those natural responses. Fight or flight is always going to be there. We can be sure of our place with God. We can’t be sure that we will survive a bullet. We can be sure that we will be with God and that [example] putting ourselves in front of a bullet for others is OK in spite of our fear. We can override the physiological and psychological response but it is a difficult conscious decision.
Comment by Robb — May 8, 2008 @ 10:45 am
…that doesn’t switch the fear off.
Comment by Robb — May 8, 2008 @ 10:46 am
I’d like to swap the word ‘perfect’ for ‘accepting’,
as for me – growing up in a christian environment where the expectations were ‘to be perfect’, I lived under a cloud of condemnation, expecting punishment and holding my breath in fear.
slowly learning to accept I don’t need to be perfect, and I’m lovable because of my value to God, I’ve got to a place where I can talk to God about my fears.
i’ve still got plenty of fear, it does help though finding you can work with them, and i can ask for support
Comment by subo — May 8, 2008 @ 11:56 am
Robb your right thats sort of what I meant. I do wonder tho are those so called FEARLESS people just Irrational?
Comment by dennis coburn — May 8, 2008 @ 12:25 pm
Can you call it irrational if it is a choice you make? If you decide to go against your fear for some reason is it irrational. Sometimes fear in itelf is irrational. Can we be all phobic for a bit?
Comment by Robb — May 8, 2008 @ 1:11 pm
dennis… i certainly think they’re wired differently and i reckon it might be genetic. i say this because i lived next door to a young adventurer, he was fearless like his father and grandfather before him. he was always jumping of clifton suspension bridge in bristol… he’d do a small count and then release his parachute. anyone who is familiar with this bridge will know just how scary that’d be to usual folk. the last time i saw him he was training at the university for a single man expedition to the north pole, armed only with a gun. he was aiming to be the youngest to achieve this feat. he had never experienced fight or flight in his life. as someone who has anxiety and lives near to panic attacks i can only suggest that my chemical make-up and balance is very different. neither of us is ‘the usual’ but i think i’d rather have his ‘deficiency’ than my ‘excess’. i think that although circumstance has a lot to do with the way we are and become, there is much that is preprogrammed into our genes… my circumstances have made it possible for chemical unbalance in a way that wouldn’t necessarily be the case for others. with the right triggers this was always going to be a weakness. my situation too is one passed down through generations from the evidence i have… it seems i am worse hit than those who went before (although i can’t know about some of my ancestors for sure).
all creatures have a developed amygdala which is where the instinct for fight or flight is located, but humans have a very well developed cerebral function which allows us to apply rationale to our situation… in my case i have to fight the tale wagging the dog… and it is more than a struggle sometimes.
would that my fears would magically to go away. the good news is i think i still lead a useful life… just an imprisoned one.
Comment by jonbirch — May 8, 2008 @ 1:17 pm
I feel a little misunderstood (nothing unusual for me)
I too am pretty fearless when it comes to most things apart from dogs & ants. What I was getting at was some of the people I know who are lets say Christian who often think its FEARLESS to attack someone’s life / spirituality and feel they have succeeded in fulfilling the Lords work and so feel they have conquered fear. Thats what I meant but as usual I didn’t get myself across.
I think I was also hinting at what actually does it mean by fear.
Imprisoned? wow.
Comment by dennis coburn — May 8, 2008 @ 1:59 pm
hi Subo, thanks for your post. I am putting myself under a lot of pressure at the moment “to be perfect” in work and in life. Your comment: “slowly learning to accept I don’t need to be perfect, and I’m lovable because of my value to God, I’ve got to a place where I can talk to God about my fears.” really resonated with me. I think I need to relax with God, and learn to enjoy being accepted.
Comment by Sophie — May 8, 2008 @ 2:26 pm
Ok, I’m new to blogging and this is my first time EVER leaving a comment….so here goes:
I think the “IT” most of us never experience (or understand) is “FEAR”.
What most people call fear is neurotic worry (no offense regarding the panic attacks)….. and true reverence and awe have been replaced by the self centered warm fuzzes.
Not wanting to be cynical – just honest based on my own journey & observations….and noting the fact that the “FEAR of the Lord”, referred to in Prov 1:7, as the “beginning of of all wisdom” is not to be cast out but sought after.
Thanks and love your blog here in Kenya!
Comment by denise — May 8, 2008 @ 2:34 pm
hi denise… and welcome to the blogging world!
no offense taken btw… the panic attacks i have are nothing like that. they are sheer terror… nothing less.
i certainly fear god… i think it’d be foolish not to.
hey dennis… i get it.
your question ‘what is fear?’ is a good one i think. i’m not sure my peculiarities are what the bible really refers to… although i’m sure unconditional love and support carries me through to a large degree, and i’m sure holds the key to further health improvements as i continue to work out my salvation… which the bible says i’m to do with ‘fear and trembling’. i’ve rambled! 
ps. at least i’ve got the ‘fear and trembling bit sussed out’… not sure what i’ve ‘worked out’ though.
Comment by jonbirch — May 8, 2008 @ 3:04 pm
10 “If you decide to go against your fear for some reason is it irrational.” – usually called courage isn’t it?
We would dearly like to have control over whatever we fear, and much of life (and our lists of prayer requests) is about this. If we did love perfectly, we would no longer make demands that life (and other people) behaves in a way that pleases us; we would simply be able to trust and not feel compelled to fix everything, including the way I am myself – we would know we have no control anyway, and it would be OK
Ho hum. Some way to go then!
Comment by Chris F — May 8, 2008 @ 3:30 pm
some ramblings – not in any order I’m afraid.
Some wise chap or chappette once told me that for something to be worthy of fear – it has to be potent and present – ie: the snake needs to be poisonous and slowly climbing your leg. The truck needs to be coming for you and not just a tonka toy. If one or the other is removed then your fear, whilst still real, is irrational.
God is both potent and present so a good thing to be afraid of – Love overcomes fear it does not remove it.
The scariest thing I ever did was jumping off of a high board into a swimming pool. I could not bring myself to step or even jump off so I overbalanced and let gravity join the argument. The point is that using something out of your control to overcome that which is in it works – try God instead of gravity!
Comment by drewman — May 8, 2008 @ 3:39 pm
So… why is it when we “get Christ” we become diluted enough to believe that everything will be “ok” or work out because God loves us? My thought is that we as Christians are to endure as much suffering as we are to endure as much joy.
Comment by Jeremy — May 8, 2008 @ 4:07 pm
I must say I am surprised when I met you once you didn’t come across as the feared & trembled. Thanks for all this Jon your a star.
Comment by dennis coburn — May 8, 2008 @ 5:04 pm
This is one of those quotes which I like to think of as a Grasshopper moment (in reference to the 70s TV series Kung Fu). I kind of feel I’m clearly not far enough along my journey of wisdom to understand it yet. I do feel fear, often over the most irrational things – being vomited on – actually quite a valid fear when you work with small children! Cockroaches, big spiders, being found out for the fraud I am, being stuck in a conversation with my dear mum-in-law, being late for work, making a prat of myself in front of others (I’ve been doing aversion therapy for that one for most of my life!). As for the big stuff, I tend not to put my head above the parapet, I just pretend that what is to be feared is not there. But it lurks, nevertheless.
Maybe perfect love will cast out all fear but only once I’ve been perfected. What I fear most of all is the loss of loved ones. When we choose to love – is love a conscious choice or are we swept along in its power? Anyway, when we choose to love, we are accepting the strong likelihood of suffering at some point, the suffering of hurts but most likely loss. We accept the beauty of the human experience, but always the shadow side is there, that if we lose the person that we cherish, we will know unspeakable pain and anguish which will cut to the core of our being. Those are my fears…
Comment by Carole — May 8, 2008 @ 6:23 pm
Perfect love does cast out fear – this scripture doesn’t say how long it takes though! Sorry – I am not one of those ‘the miracle has not manifested itself yet’ types – just think this scripture may be about an on going process (sanctification) rather than a wham bang casting out type thing – kind of fits with a lot of other scripture that points to our need to see faith as journey rather than arrival I think… the road goes ever on … dave
Comment by Dave — May 8, 2008 @ 6:57 pm
I’m afraid you’re wrong.
Wait. Afraid = fear.
Never mind.
God is perfect love. He is always driving out fear.
We are not. Maybe that is why we need Him. So we will learn not to fear.
Comment by ron — May 8, 2008 @ 7:31 pm
Jeremy 18 – you’re so right. Suffering is part of the christian life and to be expected. We all fear it I guess, but Eccles is helpful here – “when times are good, be glad; when they are not, remember God sends the one as wel as the other”
It has to be this way
Comment by Chris F — May 8, 2008 @ 8:09 pm
“i certainly fear god… i think it’d be foolish not to.”
Jon – your quote reminded me of a line from “The Usual Suspects:
Verbal: “Keaton always said, “I don’t believe in God, but I’m afraid of him.” Well I believe in God, and the only thing that scares me is Keyser Soze.”
Comment by Mr. Nighttime — May 8, 2008 @ 8:47 pm
cheers folk, it’s good to read your honest responses to living with fear.
I did a load of CBT on my studies last yr., and so should know that ‘anxiety is exaggerating the threat, and underestimating our ability to cope’ – stuff that stuff! also I know Jon, we can use being rational to reassess situations – but doesn’t that work both ways, i.e. if I couldn’t imagine loosing something I care about, well I wouldn’t worry about it – would I?
I did like the things I learnt about mindfulness and body states – i.e., we can increase our natural ‘calm’ body state by using mindfulness, though was hugely disappointed to realise Buddhism is happily incorporated into counselling when Christian practices (although people have found them to be excellent for 1000’s of yrs.) are massively distrusted
Comment by subo — May 8, 2008 @ 9:34 pm
Oh pants. Time for some personal honesty with friends.
The only thing that has paralysed me over the years is fear of God and of others. I have feared that God doesn’t like me. I know that I have known him. I know that I have had a relationship with him. I know that I know about him. But I have not known that God likes me because… I fear him.
In “on being liked” by James Alison he talks about ‘liking’ people. [I use Alison’s example but write it in my own words] Anyone can say that they love someone “I love homosexuals and mean ‘I hate homosexuals and want to change them’. It means so much more to say I ‘like’ homosexuals as there is an implicit action”.
My experiences growing up as a misfit in a small town taught me the same thing. ‘God doesn’t like people like you’.
My experiences of coming to faith were in a charismatic but somewhat fundamentalist setting. The pervading wisdom was that ‘God doesn’t like you because you don’t wear a checked shirt tucked into your jeans with short hair and a pair of brown shoes’.
All in all, everything conspired to tell me that “God doesn’t like me. Fear God as he is out to get you. God tolerates you because of what you could be if you were someone else.”
I have come to realise that actually the God of the bible (the guy I read about and follow) doesn’t just love me, he likes me. Much as God in Bruce Almighty* tells Bruce at the end “I know, I made you [quit bragging says Bruce]“, I have needed to start embracing the love God has for me as the fear I had of him made me stupid [in many varied ways].
I am not saying that God wants you to do bad stuff or that God doesn’t want you to do better. In much the same way that a parent loves their child, he is patient. He doesn’t carry a stick, he carries a set of times tables, some toys and your dinner. He is waiting for the day when you turn around and go “OOOOOOh dad dad, I get it!!!” and he gets to turn around and *beams at us* and say “finally…. I knew you would!!”
*No all you biblical scholars out there I haven’t supplanted the scriptures in the name of a vid, it is a metaphor!!
Comment by Robb — May 8, 2008 @ 11:16 pm
Robb, that was lovely!
Thank you!
Comment by Carole — May 8, 2008 @ 11:30 pm
isnt it a confusing verse because nobody quotes the second part? it says fear has to do with punishment.
so in this case, perfect love SHOULD drive out all fear, because Christ has saved us from sin. we no longer fear punishment from God.
Comment by ben — May 9, 2008 @ 12:13 am
Much as how most salvation theory is based upon John 3:16 rather than John 3:17….
Comment by Robb — May 9, 2008 @ 12:20 am
dennis no.19. indeed, that’s not how i come across… i have bags of confidence in what i do, but very little in basic things like gravity sometimes… i know it sounds weird. the thing that gets me to greenbelt is that so many of my best friends are there and fortunately it is only an hour away. it really is like being gripped by terror and distrust in even basic things like floors and walls. not nice. perfectly happy getting up in front of 20,000 people though… how weird is that!?
oh… and you’re welcome.
nicely said robb.
Comment by jonbirch — May 9, 2008 @ 1:13 am
One of my favourite verses is where Jesus says “who by worrying can add a single day to his life?” Time spent worrying is so often wasted time. Many of the people I work with have difficulties with anxiety, and the majority of them have underlying beliefs about “not being good enough”. Low self esteem causes so many problems for so many people but I have seen so many people with these difficulties change and grow into more happy and confident people. It does often sadden me that I can’t talk to them about how precious they are to God because I know how important this is to my self esteem!
Comment by Dr Ruth — May 9, 2008 @ 7:57 am
hey dr. ruth… you show them though. all healing comes from god even if he is never named. it’s a vital job you do. good on you.
Comment by jonbirch — May 9, 2008 @ 12:48 pm
Never really thought about it that way. Thank you!
Comment by Dr Ruth — May 9, 2008 @ 2:05 pm
no probs dr. ruth… i am very grateful for the help i’ve recieved from professionals over the last 14 or so years. i’m not cured, but thanks to people like you and them i am able now to do things that were impossible… like leave the house, eat and drink, basic things like that. it’s not easy but i owe a huge debt of thanks to a good few people now, all of whom have played an important part in helping me find my life again. i have much respect and admiration for the job you and they do. thank you.
Comment by jonbirch — May 9, 2008 @ 6:43 pm
I’m with Dave (#21) – there’s no time table on how long it takes for perfect love to cast out fear…
sometimes we are so less apt to give ourselves grace over this stuff that God is.
luckily that doesn’t really prevent Him from showering us with it anyway…
here’s a question: what’s perfect love? (biblically defined, of course)
Comment by Happy — May 9, 2008 @ 7:21 pm
p.s. Jon -I am VERY glad you’ve found life. Keep after it. We love you.
Comment by Happy — May 9, 2008 @ 7:22 pm
thank you happy.
what’s perfect love? is a good question. even the most perfect love would be received by us in an imperfect way and thus not be fully recognised by us.
btw… your name ‘happy’ still always makes me feel happy… amazing how that works.
ps, i agree with dave too.
Comment by jonbirch — May 10, 2008 @ 12:29 am
I didn’t realise just how fearful I was until I became a Christian. Being a control freak and having to cast my cares and not thinking about tomorrow causes me sweaty-palmed moments of panic almost every day.
I always associate the FEAR in the bible with learning to trust God and loving Him as unconditionally as He loves me. Not something I naturally know how to do or how to accept.
The journey to being perfect in His eyes is as individual as we all are; however slowly we travel and no matter how often we stumble.
I think (hope) it matters more that we’re trying on a daily basis to get there; even when the results are not obvious and the goal seems impossibly distant.
Comment by botticelliwoman — May 10, 2008 @ 7:14 am
hi botticelliwoman… i really do believe the journey is of far more importance than the arriving. those who think they’ve arrived never sound authentic to me, even though they may well have kidded themselves. i believe your hope to be a truly wise way to go… it’s honest for starters and that’s a good basis for any pursuit.
Comment by jonbirch — May 10, 2008 @ 8:51 am
From Adams and Eve’s Journey from Eden to the journeys of Jesus via an exile and an exodus our faith has been all about Journey….
….right up until Constentine converted and the church started becomeing “The Church” and having buildings and presence and stuff.
We were “followers of the way” going on a journey [like Paul]. Then we became “Christians” and started to become end product. Become a “Christian” and your journey is complete.
…erm ….. no….
Comment by Robb — May 10, 2008 @ 11:45 am
becomeing
Part of my journey….
becoming
What should have been my final product if I had proof readed what I as written.
Comment by Robb — May 10, 2008 @ 11:46 am
There’s a verse in the sermon on the mount that trips me up sometimes – “Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.” I chose it as the topic for a term paper I had to write, and it was interesting to me to study that verse in context, and I began to realize that perfection IS love… not dotting your i’s and crossing your t’s and getting it all right all the time – but loving people the way God loves them. Loving your enemies. Loving your neighbors. Loving your neighbors when they feel like your enemies… Unconditionally. So if to be perfect IS to love, then perfect love is… I dunno – half of a thought, but I wonder if God’s idea of perfect love involves us loving each other out of our fears… “here, let me walk with you for a bit…” it’s a little less lonely anyway…
Comment by Happy — May 11, 2008 @ 6:15 am
35 and 21, it’s true there is no timetable for casting out fear. But as Robb says in 26, the day comes when we finally “get it” – not ALL of course just the next bit we hadn’t seen yet. So it’s not like the layers of an onion or a journey – it can happen suddenly and completely when the light comes on, the darkness disappears and we SEE once and for all there never was anything to be afraid of
Comment by Chris F — May 11, 2008 @ 10:43 am
- he gets to turn around and “beams at us” – cheers Rob, it’s like i’d need to be aged in an oak casket for 100 years for this to seep through, yet at the same time i know it on a faint level.
reading your comments made me realise how much of God’s delight in us i filter out!
Comment by subo — May 11, 2008 @ 11:47 am
It does cast it out, bit by bit. It’s a process. We’ll be alright if we keep with Him. He’s lush.
Sas x
Comment by sarah — May 11, 2008 @ 10:46 pm
mmm… lush. I don’t know that I would ever have used that word to describe God, but I like it.
Thanks, Sas. (and it’s good to “see” you). 
Comment by Happy — May 12, 2008 @ 12:58 am
You too Haps!!!
Sas x
Comment by sarah — May 12, 2008 @ 10:17 pm