Praise the Lord hallelujah! My experience is there is no teamwork when it comes to worship/preacher. Is that why some churches with more money than others wear those ear thingy’s?
Your not an easy guy to figure out Jon and sometimes I wonder why you have blogged like you have? through experience? through intrigue? through anger? through Joy? probably all I guess.
Some I have to go back to again and again just to see if I can read you, but thats the beauty of ASBO and others of the mysterious.
I remember a time when the ‘Pastor’ whispered, no he shouted above the music “Come on dennis lets whip them up a bit more” I laugh now in embarrassment but Lord what was I doing?
i’m not that tricky really dennis. i’m a bit cheeky, hate bullying, i’m a driven creative, love people and am far from perfect.
as for why i blog… i started for reasons that i am none too sure of and now it has a life of its’ own. i continue to blog because i hope it is of use to the people who i’ve come to love and respect here. i hope it is a small force for good. i really enjoy the interaction here, it feels positive. i’m amazed by people constantly here and they have become an important part of my journey.
as a creative it is also nice to have found an audience. if i can just make people laugh, or think again, or question their assumptions, or do anything in some small way with one of the gifts i have been given, then it is a privilege to do so.
hope that at least answers your question a bit. i’m constantly working things out myself and am very much a work in progress. throwing ideas or thoughts out there to get the perspective of others seems like a good idea. even if nobody else finds this site useful, at least i do.
“it is of use to the people who i’ve come to love and respect here” – I love this blog, I don’t get time to chat about this stuff elsewhere, and yes, the conversations are great, top people
Hmmm, its not that bad when the pastor and worship leader are working together, its something that we need more of in church, albeit not for the reasons stated above (to get people hyped and suggestable, although sometimes when God really touches people in worship they become more open to His words…).
Whats really, really frustrating is when there is a genuine move of God during a time of worship but the minister stops it dead, because its gone on longer than the allotted 20 minutes and now its his preaching slot!
In our church, we hardly ever have worship led by anyone other than the minister. Then again, in our church building, the pulpit is the only place someone can be seen by the whole congregation. Architecture really does play a bigger role in our church than we think.
as ‘a preacher’ i have to say i have had some great ‘lead-ins’ from worship groups – the best was when a group hyped up a congregation with the expression ‘lets worship God and get the world out of our systems’!! Whereupon I got up to preach on how to get the world back into our system!! Dave (in the world and of/for the world!):)
i led communion last year and did a very interactive session where there was loads of hands on ways to come approach communion. For young and old alike. I asked the worship leader to come out of this time with something appropriate. He chose “There must be more than this” I had to laugh. Still do.
What’s even creepier are the ushers who wear earbuds and walkie-talkie devices – they circle around to signal to the preacher comments they hear people’s comments re: given ailments, family problems, etc. So the preacher can (using well timed music of course) pray in a way that everyone think he’s receiving a divine gifts but it’s all mic’d in.
Seriously, Becky? That’s shocking. That’s fraud and a custodial sentence would be the thing, I reckon.
I have problems as a worshipper. (a) I can’t sing and (b) I have monkey-brain-type concentration problems. If the worship leader gets carried away and it goes on too long (no, let’s not sing it again, and again…) I’m away elsewhere in my head – perhaps somewhere spiritual or perhaps just off to the shops! So personally, she’s flogging a dead horse if she’s trying to whip me into a frenzy
God has, however, graciously blessed me with a love of beautiful scenery, which I live amidst, so I do often worship him (she says quickly in defence )
Amen to the easily distracted. We will one day take over the world!!
I have to admit, I don’t “hear the word” when the “gospel is preached”. It ain’t my learning style. Sorry. I am a heathen. I’m not one of the good girls at school who would sit and listen to any teacher. I was a naughty boy. Oooops.
Just to present a different angle: in my Church, the hymns are putting the teens in a state of boredom, not suggestibility. Is it possible to get with the Big Guy when your brain is deadened by Victorian drudge? About the same as when your brain is “hyped” by over emoted clap trap.
What to do, what do……
(I suggest no music at all. Silence (or maybe a bit of Eno)
A worship leader should be just that… a worship LEADER… it’s a real bugbear of mine when the minister trys to co-ordinate things in this way…
Our old minister used to insist on doing these little hand signals to conduct us from afar… a spinning finger for repeating the song… and a palm to stop. I mean really!
It wouldn’t have been so bad if everyone could see… but sat behind a drumkit, round a corner, and behind two Mackie speakers and an organ complete with organist… I found you have to develop a supernatural skill for mind reading.
Hi Jon. I note no-one has commented on the key word in the caption… Is there more likely to be a “move of God” (as someone put it) when people have been put in a certain mental state by (over-)repetion of tune, rhythm & lyrics, maybe the presence of candles, even incense etc.? Why the need to make people suggestible before talking about God?
JF – what is the difference between repetition and meditation? Isn’t there a historic precedent for repetition of tune rhythm and lyrics. Monastic movememnts have been meditating on the bible and singing plainsong for centuries.
Caz – I hate the term “worship leader”. That said, when Dr Ruth is doing it I can read her mind with astonishing accuracy. For some reason I know where she is going in a song. That said, we did a kids song a few weeks ago and the woman leading the actions tried to make us recomence the song after we had ended with a perfect cadence. Needless to say she looked a bit silly as we didn’t. She still carried on regardless. Afterwards she said “When I am playing it we always repeat the last line 3 times”. I think my response was “when I’m playing it I don’t”.
From the point of view of playing in a band it makes perfect sense to have signals that let you know what is happening. At the end of a cheese rock number in the pub when I am giving it large on an AC/DC type ending I turn and look at the drummer because we need the telepathy to know that we are both going to whack it at the same time (and if you’re lucky I may jump in the air on the last note too for good measure). There is nothing unusual about having direction. In the school choir I have an elderly gentleman tell me when to sing. It means it works.
Yeah, getting that final power chord ending in synch with the drum finale is all important, but not what I feel we’re talking about here.
I do try to meditate on my role in this world, how I can get things right / better, my relationships etc. But none of that meditation involves song, repetition or chanting. I am no-one to dictate how other people live and work out their relationship with God, but I would worry if I felt I was making decisions about my life, relationships, spirituality etc. while in anything other than a clear-headed state.
Derren Brown uses suggestion to get people to do things they would not otherwise consider. I want my actions to be dictated by my conscience and the result of my meditations, not because I have got myself (or been put) in a suggestive state and then had things thrown at me.
Didn’t some band have to defend themselves against a claim that their repetitive “do it, do, it, do it” lyrics got someone (several people?) to the state where they committed suicide?
I was only in my mid teens when I witnessed Billy Graham ‘converting’ thousands of people at Ashton Gate. I was just old / ‘aware’ enough to realise that the psychological techniques being employed were very very strong, but that the ‘conversions’ ultimately very little to do with true belief or faith. I feel the same effect is often at work in gatherings of all kinds, from football matches to business meetings…).
I also think that in very general terms, the mass (group) behaviour / dynamic is too often false and transient. Get individuals on their own and they will often behave / opine entirely differently. This effect (group dynamic) worries me and makes me avoid/hate a lot of situations like it.
But then again Jesus said “where 2 or 3 are gathered…”. That’s interesting and I hadn’t thought of that in this context until now.
Maybe I am a control freak. I simply don’t believe that being in a state of suggestibility (through music, repetition, chanting or whatever) and putting myself in the presence of someone with an agenda (whether Christian, well-intended or otherwise) is the right way for me to get things straight in my mind or right in my life.
Ah, the age old Judas Priest killed my son court case. I think from what I remember of it all, the case was nonsense but still gets big press with people like “Dial the truth ministries”. Anything to justify the “music is of the devil” stance.
Group dynamic is a funny thing. There was a point yesterday where it looked like the Man City fans were going to start fighting the police. People diving from the top of the stand to bottom because they could see an opportunity for smack someone’s head in. I think I would rather have billy graham.
Here’s the difference – at least for me. At any large event (e.g., Greenbelt) one has to be mic’d and the music amplified or else only people in the first few rows can hear squat and the sound quality on the tapes will suck. Likewise, if there isn’t some degree of coordination and rehearsals in pulling off say the Sunday Eucharist at Greenbelt, it will turn into a logistical nightmare. And in a case like that, you do need walkie-talkies to ensure that say the communion kits are passed in a manner so it’s not a free-for-all.
But the major difference here is that when I see say Jonny DJ’ing a service, he feels out the crowd and say extends the music a bit if he sense the group is still in prayer or cuts it short a bit if he feels it’s time to move on. I’ve seen worship leaders cue the band where it felt natural – like these were musicians improvising off our cues to play on, wrap it up and the like. And what rocks is when the priest is also able to feel the same vibe so they work together in concert as though guided by the Holy Spirit.
I sense at the bulk of of the spiritual spectacles I’ve seen, it feels like the worship leader/priest have planned the service out to the point where there’s no room for the Holy Spirit to join in the dance.
i love to be manipulated by great music, art, theatre, cinema… but not to have it manipulate my agenda. there’s enough crass jingoism on tv, don’t need it in church too. and the church these days is sadly not noted for its great art.
i shall choose what music i listen to to chill me out or to make my ears bleed or colon vibrate. i shall also not be buying into a vision i’m having sold to me from the front without being wary of the small print. invariably vision comes with small print and before you realise it you are tied into stuff you’d not expected… such as, how you should behave, what you should wear and which ego you should bow before in order for a smooth ride.
let’s love each other and sing. not sing about ‘how we wanna love each other’… it’s the wrong way round.
the question is ‘what are we going to do with our lives’… not ‘what does the church demand i do with my life.’
i’m not by any means advocating selfishness. rather that i will not have my will bent by the will of the institution or the insecure megalomaniac ego’s that have a ‘vision’, or what i prefer to call an ‘agenda’.
Some of the times where i have felt as though the music i have chosen for a sunday morning has been the right choice has been where i have come to church on a sunday morning with a list and walked around and chatted to people and felt that there is a sense that what i have chosen is wrong. I then allow the morning to happen without any agenda and not knowing what was going to happen next. in times like these there tends to be more involvement from everyone where the congregation is not looking to a leader that has a set idea of what he/she wants to achieve. but feels as though it is a joint venture to step out and worship – From times like this we have had people grabbing a mic and praying/bring poetry/story telling, we’ve even had dance (which i hate but love that there is the freedom that they can express their worship in this way). They are actually very, very good at dancing – it’s just not my thing.
When stuff like this happens and happens spontaneously – people can then say oh that went well i will re-create that next week. It never works in the same way.
Jon – At the RC school I teach in we had a guy come in last week fromthe diocese to talk about “catholic ethos”. He was very keen to point out that it is a relationship that we are invited into with a person. It is not a demand, it is an invitation.
The church is not there to demand anything. The church is there to invite us into relationship with the person of God. Anyone who is making demands is in conflict with free will (back to bruce almighty again).
32. Great art moves me without making me feel manipulated so I can then decide how I want to respond. For example, I saw a host of documentaries at the Tribeca Film Festival recently here in NYC – the films that made me want to be a part of that movement told the story in a way that I felt I could join in the parade. The film (most notably the Madonna documentary on Africa) that made me want to run for the hills “told” me how I could contribute to “the cause.”
The vision stuff freaks me out – here in the states we have people pushing “Evangelical Manifestos,” “Declarations of Faith” and other documents as we head into the 2008 Election – once you read it, it’s pretty obvious that the signers are progressive Democrats or conservative Republicans – that’s another post entirely but I see that manipulation happening in US church communities all the time.
Will, I think you’re dead on the nail when you say about how trying to re-create something just doesn’t work. I’ve had these discussions with my Alevel Drama students about the same kind of thing – when something is real and meaningful (in acting OR worship) to try to re-create that exact thing just turns it into something artificial.
I love music in worship in lots of different ways but I have to ‘feel it’ myself, not have someone try to make me feel what they want me to feel because of their vision.
Hey I wish we had walky talkies in our church! Well, I at least wish the sermon would be relative to the rest of the service. Our group ussually goes out but some times we (are forced) to stay in the service and it always seems that the preacher always goes off at a tangent.
#29 Hey, JF. You diss-ing Billy Graham? I think he’s a very godly man. The press have tried and tried to find some dirt to dish on him and it’s not been forthcoming really.I’ve seen him live doing his thing on various occasions and I was totally amazed how un-emotional it all was. Being the total pessimist that I am, every time I thought, “Huh. No-one’ll go forward after that”. But they did, probably because most of them have been invited by folk who’ve been praying for them for a long time.
His type of crusades may not resonate with today’s culture. They may have had their day. I’m willing to grant you that. Some of the sown seed may have fallen among thorns or on stony ground but there’s been a harvest too. A huge one. Bigger than mine for sure (that wouldn’t be hard!)
interesting… the billy graham theme… i don’t think billy was employing any deliberate psychological tools (far too much integrity i think)… but, there is a dynamic thing that happens with crowds, an ‘in it together/strength in numbers’ type thing that you are definitely aware of going forward… i know, cos i went forward. there is a sense of things gently moving forward to a climax of people getting up and committing or recommitting. in the case of billy graham it is subtle, not cynical i believe, but none-the-less we should be aware of this dynamic taking place.
people know they’re broken and hurting and to be told that jesus provides the way forward is very appealing particularly in a crowd where you are not on your own.
i think if the church understood brokenness and were less scared of communing in the reality of brokenness rather than painting on a veneer of godliness you’d find a lot more people in church… the church would certainly become relevant again… which for most it isn’t right now.
“The church is there to invite us into relationship with the person of God. Anyone who is making demands is in conflict with free will.”
that’s the theory robb… it’d be great if that were the practise. i’m generalising of course.
I can’t stand (most) worship music. Especially when directed to sing it over and over and over and over and over like every single repetition will somehow get us closer to God.
I am wary of the emotional part of it, too…because being moved (in whatever direction) is not synonymous with being moved by the Spirit, or hearing God speak, or any of that. It is exactly that – being moved by our emotions.
The same goes for background music during prayer, which is par for the course in my church…why is that necessary? I don’t need or want “prayer soundtracks.” What I need, during prayer, is silence. Not some sappy music designed to stir the emotional pot.
well done laura! you took your time! happy photographising!
hi jules. i wouldn’t mind the repetition if i liked in any way the tunes or the words served up. but as both often seem pretty darned dire i mind a lot.
jules and jon – yep loads of worship music is total pants But just occassionally there’s some I love (esp at sanctuary with groovy chill out stuff and no cheesy singing!)
In one sense I agree – I did part of my MA on indoctrination.
But another part of me wonders whether it’s a little harsh and that a less cynical approach would say being in genuine worship with other people is spiritually very powerful and makes you more open to God speaking to you.
Comment by youthworkerpete — May 13, 2008 @ 10:13 am
I spent my last weeks as a Christian in a wonderful church, small enough for everyone to care; dynamic enough to change, if not the world, then the London Borough of Barnet; progressively evangelical enough for me to take the words of the preachers as postcards from Gospelville.
So by the time I discovered that I didn’t fit in, I had autosuggested myself out of going to this beautiful community for help. I thought I was evil, and evil corrupts. As scarily, this beautiful community had autosuggested itself into a place where it couldn’t come out to me and fetch me back.
It took eight years avoiding church for the indoctrination to drop its grip, which it did, whereupon I realised that God’s not into any form of emotional manipulation at all. So now I avoid the ‘Christian’ label altogether. Fingers burnt too harshly, perhaps.
So maybe that’s a warning for churches, or maybe just another of God’s loving paradoxes! Go figure…
Comment by steve lancaster — May 13, 2008 @ 3:17 pm
No I wasn’t dissing Billy Graham. But I am wary of the group dynamics effect and I think ministry should stand alone without needing that backdrop.
I had already been taken to a Dick Saunders event when I was very small and been amazed at the numbers of people going forward then (I was almost too small to even understand what it was all about). So when I went to Billy Graham years later, I kinda knew the pattern the event would take and was curious about that process of people going up. I’m no psychologist now, let alone then, but there was a massive build up to the act (of coming to the front). It became the focus, and was referenced over and over, although of course it was done in a very sincere manner and based on a message of salvation. It was so gripping, I almost felt like going up myself, even though I was pretty disillusioned/rebellious (allowing for the fact I was only 11 or 12!) about church at the time. I’m just saying – as Jon has noted – that I felt this was down to group dynamics, more than a real personal engagement with a spiritual commitment. Three kids of my age from my youth group went forward. A week later, they couldn’t tell me why they had done it.
The main point of me contributing to this thread was simply to say that I hope people arrive at clarity on their lives and their spirituality through judicious reflection / prayer, rather than following patterns of thought and behaviour they’ve had put to them while (regularly / repeatedly) in a suggestible state.
The rest was me wondering why church services have developed so many aspects which would contribute to a state of suggestibility in the first place.
Read this today in a great book called ‘Wild’, by Jay Griffiths, who is writing about her experiences in the Amazon rainforest. Got to share it with you!
“Where the path was most thickly overgrown, we would wait for Hector [their guide] to swipe several times with his machete for every step we could take. As we waited, we were knotted up in the forest, the runners tripped us, linea [creepers] twined around us, roots crisscrossed our feet, branches curled around us: we were held in the huge Gordian embrace of the jungle. But the path is not only a space, a thin absence of forest: keeping a path open is an act of care, for the path is a line of belonging and walking it repeatedly is an act of intimate love.”
So yes! – that’s the Way I know. It’s not only laid out before us, but it’s sustained and even recreated as we tred along it – for each other, not only for ourselves.
Steve
Comment by steve lancaster — May 14, 2008 @ 9:16 pm
youthworkerpete (54),
You got me thinking! Thank you. ‘Christian’ is an interesting label. I dug out my concordance!
‘Christian’ is only used three times in the bible:
1. Acts 11:26, where it’s applied (presumably by others) to the disciples;
2. Acts 26:28, where someone who is not a Christian (King Agrippa)uses it of Paul (and interestingly, v.29, Paul doesn’t claim it for himself – just wishes that his audience were like him spiritually);
3. 1 Peter 4:16, where it is a name which disciples have to bear – ie. one that is laid upon them by others, as (presumably) a term of ridicule, because Peter has to tell them not to be ashamed of it.
So – nowhere in the Bible does it say we should have to take on the name as a label. It does say we should ‘praise God that we bear that name’ – but you can praise God silently. A parallel might be found in the gay movement: if you’re gay in a homophobic society you might not use the terms of insult addressed to you by bigots around you, but still praise God that you are gay. Something like: ‘I am true to what I am, therefore the insults come as part of the package, but I am strong enough not to disown myself. I praise God that through this persecution God has shown me how strong I am.’
My feeling is that though some might raise the banner of Christianity, and that’s cool, in an age where everyone is quick to use labels to avoid really getting to know people, it might actually be a good idea for Christians who want to to try abandoning such outward forms of identity. Put it another way, there’s undeniable safety in numbers, and a good persecution complex – we’re in a Christian huddle – can sometimes be a way of hiding from God.
I dunno, what do you think?
Steve
Comment by steve lancaster — May 14, 2008 @ 10:01 pm
re. 1, 2, and 3 steve… that’s how i understand it too.
[...] The same thing with songs like “Just As I Am” which have been used so many times with one emotive purpose in mind so that eventually all you have to do is hear the first few notes of the song, to have the feeling, “Hmmm, is there something I should be feeling guilty about?” Not that conscience searching is a bad thing. But musically manipulated conscience probing? [...]
Praise the Lord hallelujah! My experience is there is no teamwork when it comes to worship/preacher. Is that why some churches with more money than others wear those ear thingy’s?
Comment by dennis coburn — May 11, 2008 @ 4:51 pm
absolutely it is dennis!
Comment by jonbirch — May 11, 2008 @ 4:57 pm
Your not an easy guy to figure out Jon and sometimes I wonder why you have blogged like you have? through experience? through intrigue? through anger? through Joy? probably all I guess.
Some I have to go back to again and again just to see if I can read you, but thats the beauty of ASBO and others of the mysterious.
I remember a time when the ‘Pastor’ whispered, no he shouted above the music “Come on dennis lets whip them up a bit more” I laugh now in embarrassment but Lord what was I doing?
Comment by dennis coburn — May 11, 2008 @ 5:49 pm
i’m not that tricky really dennis. i’m a bit cheeky, hate bullying, i’m a driven creative, love people and am far from perfect.
as for why i blog… i started for reasons that i am none too sure of and now it has a life of its’ own. i continue to blog because i hope it is of use to the people who i’ve come to love and respect here. i hope it is a small force for good. i really enjoy the interaction here, it feels positive. i’m amazed by people constantly here and they have become an important part of my journey.
as a creative it is also nice to have found an audience. if i can just make people laugh, or think again, or question their assumptions, or do anything in some small way with one of the gifts i have been given, then it is a privilege to do so.
hope that at least answers your question a bit. i’m constantly working things out myself and am very much a work in progress. throwing ideas or thoughts out there to get the perspective of others seems like a good idea. even if nobody else finds this site useful, at least i do.
Comment by jonbirch — May 11, 2008 @ 6:44 pm
i love this one
my sister agreed to sing for communion in a church were the vicar had an ever expanding ego.
as he realised how well the singing was going down – he sent a message to have her silenced.
Comment by subo — May 11, 2008 @ 6:52 pm
“it is of use to the people who i’ve come to love and respect here” – I love this blog, I don’t get time to chat about this stuff elsewhere, and yes, the conversations are great, top people
Comment by subo — May 11, 2008 @ 6:54 pm
Hmmm, its not that bad when the pastor and worship leader are working together, its something that we need more of in church, albeit not for the reasons stated above (to get people hyped and suggestable, although sometimes when God really touches people in worship they become more open to His words…).
Whats really, really frustrating is when there is a genuine move of God during a time of worship but the minister stops it dead, because its gone on longer than the allotted 20 minutes and now its his preaching slot!
Comment by DrNick — May 11, 2008 @ 7:04 pm
In our church, we hardly ever have worship led by anyone other than the minister. Then again, in our church building, the pulpit is the only place someone can be seen by the whole congregation. Architecture really does play a bigger role in our church than we think.
Comment by John Ferguson — May 11, 2008 @ 7:18 pm
By ‘going in’ does he mean ‘take the offering’? That’s been my previous experience….
Comment by amywatson — May 11, 2008 @ 7:19 pm
Back off preacher man – If whatever is going on is of God then give him space for Gods sake.
Honestly some of us really know how to cramp Gods style – Love the toon am going to forward the link to our worship types
Comment by drewman — May 11, 2008 @ 7:38 pm
as ‘a preacher’ i have to say i have had some great ‘lead-ins’ from worship groups – the best was when a group hyped up a congregation with the expression ‘lets worship God and get the world out of our systems’!! Whereupon I got up to preach on how to get the world back into our system!! Dave (in the world and of/for the world!):)
Comment by Dave — May 11, 2008 @ 9:08 pm
i led communion last year and did a very interactive session where there was loads of hands on ways to come approach communion. For young and old alike. I asked the worship leader to come out of this time with something appropriate. He chose “There must be more than this” I had to laugh. Still do.
Comment by Will — May 11, 2008 @ 9:13 pm
[...] Perhaps Jon Birch should have the last word. [...]
Pingback by Cynics for Christ: want to join? » MetaCatholic — May 11, 2008 @ 9:24 pm
What’s even creepier are the ushers who wear earbuds and walkie-talkie devices – they circle around to signal to the preacher comments they hear people’s comments re: given ailments, family problems, etc. So the preacher can (using well timed music of course) pray in a way that everyone think he’s receiving a divine gifts but it’s all mic’d in.
Comment by becky — May 11, 2008 @ 9:42 pm
Seriously, Becky? That’s shocking. That’s fraud and a custodial sentence would be the thing, I reckon.
I have problems as a worshipper. (a) I can’t sing and (b) I have monkey-brain-type concentration problems. If the worship leader gets carried away and it goes on too long (no, let’s not sing it again, and again…) I’m away elsewhere in my head – perhaps somewhere spiritual or perhaps just off to the shops! So personally, she’s flogging a dead horse if she’s trying to whip me into a frenzy
God has, however, graciously blessed me with a love of beautiful scenery, which I live amidst, so I do often worship him (she says quickly in defence
)
Comment by AnneDroid — May 11, 2008 @ 10:23 pm
Oh wow – I didn’t intend that first emoticon. How did I do that?!
Comment by AnneDroid — May 11, 2008 @ 10:25 pm
That’s so gross.
Sas x
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Comment by sarah — May 11, 2008 @ 10:42 pm
AnneDroid
Amen to the easily distracted. We will one day take over the world!!
I have to admit, I don’t “hear the word” when the “gospel is preached”. It ain’t my learning style. Sorry. I am a heathen. I’m not one of the good girls at school who would sit and listen to any teacher. I was a naughty boy. Oooops.
Comment by Robb — May 12, 2008 @ 12:50 am
15 – Yep that was one of the many things uncovered when faith healers like Benny Hinn were exposed as frauds.
Comment by becky — May 12, 2008 @ 12:51 am
Just to present a different angle: in my Church, the hymns are putting the teens in a state of boredom, not suggestibility. Is it possible to get with the Big Guy when your brain is deadened by Victorian drudge? About the same as when your brain is “hyped” by over emoted clap trap.
What to do, what do……
(I suggest no music at all. Silence (or maybe a bit of Eno)
Comment by Christopher — May 12, 2008 @ 3:20 am
Man I want one of thos walkie talkies
Great cartoon jon
Comment by dadube — May 12, 2008 @ 3:41 am
love dave and will’s stories:)- do they really have those things in church now?!- i clearly have been out of ‘proper’ church for a long time!
Comment by soniamain — May 12, 2008 @ 5:21 am
A worship leader should be just that… a worship LEADER… it’s a real bugbear of mine when the minister trys to co-ordinate things in this way…
Our old minister used to insist on doing these little hand signals to conduct us from afar… a spinning finger for repeating the song… and a palm to stop. I mean really!
It wouldn’t have been so bad if everyone could see… but sat behind a drumkit, round a corner, and behind two Mackie speakers and an organ complete with organist… I found you have to develop a supernatural skill for mind reading.
Comment by Caz — May 12, 2008 @ 8:21 am
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http://www.raceforlifesponsorme.org/sarahharris8
Comment by sarah — May 12, 2008 @ 8:23 am
Hi Jon. I note no-one has commented on the key word in the caption… Is there more likely to be a “move of God” (as someone put it) when people have been put in a certain mental state by (over-)repetion of tune, rhythm & lyrics, maybe the presence of candles, even incense etc.? Why the need to make people suggestible before talking about God?
Comment by JF — May 12, 2008 @ 9:08 am
JF – what is the difference between repetition and meditation? Isn’t there a historic precedent for repetition of tune rhythm and lyrics. Monastic movememnts have been meditating on the bible and singing plainsong for centuries.
Caz – I hate the term “worship leader”. That said, when Dr Ruth is doing it I can read her mind with astonishing accuracy. For some reason I know where she is going in a song. That said, we did a kids song a few weeks ago and the woman leading the actions tried to make us recomence the song after we had ended with a perfect cadence. Needless to say she looked a bit silly as we didn’t. She still carried on regardless. Afterwards she said “When I am playing it we always repeat the last line 3 times”. I think my response was “when I’m playing it I don’t”.
From the point of view of playing in a band it makes perfect sense to have signals that let you know what is happening. At the end of a cheese rock number in the pub when I am giving it large on an AC/DC type ending I turn and look at the drummer because we need the telepathy to know that we are both going to whack it at the same time (and if you’re lucky I may jump in the air on the last note too for good measure). There is nothing unusual about having direction. In the school choir I have an elderly gentleman tell me when to sing. It means it works.
Comment by Robb — May 12, 2008 @ 9:50 am
Totally agree Rob… there needs to be direction of some sort, just that it needs to come from the right place… wherever that may be…!
God perhaps?!
Comment by Caz — May 12, 2008 @ 10:48 am
Robb*
Comment by Caz — May 12, 2008 @ 10:49 am
Yeah, getting that final power chord ending in synch with the drum finale is all important, but not what I feel we’re talking about here.
I do try to meditate on my role in this world, how I can get things right / better, my relationships etc. But none of that meditation involves song, repetition or chanting. I am no-one to dictate how other people live and work out their relationship with God, but I would worry if I felt I was making decisions about my life, relationships, spirituality etc. while in anything other than a clear-headed state.
Derren Brown uses suggestion to get people to do things they would not otherwise consider. I want my actions to be dictated by my conscience and the result of my meditations, not because I have got myself (or been put) in a suggestive state and then had things thrown at me.
Didn’t some band have to defend themselves against a claim that their repetitive “do it, do, it, do it” lyrics got someone (several people?) to the state where they committed suicide?
I was only in my mid teens when I witnessed Billy Graham ‘converting’ thousands of people at Ashton Gate. I was just old / ‘aware’ enough to realise that the psychological techniques being employed were very very strong, but that the ‘conversions’ ultimately very little to do with true belief or faith. I feel the same effect is often at work in gatherings of all kinds, from football matches to business meetings…).
I also think that in very general terms, the mass (group) behaviour / dynamic is too often false and transient. Get individuals on their own and they will often behave / opine entirely differently. This effect (group dynamic) worries me and makes me avoid/hate a lot of situations like it.
But then again Jesus said “where 2 or 3 are gathered…”. That’s interesting and I hadn’t thought of that in this context until now.
Maybe I am a control freak. I simply don’t believe that being in a state of suggestibility (through music, repetition, chanting or whatever) and putting myself in the presence of someone with an agenda (whether Christian, well-intended or otherwise) is the right way for me to get things straight in my mind or right in my life.
Comment by JF — May 12, 2008 @ 10:58 am
Ah, the age old Judas Priest killed my son court case. I think from what I remember of it all, the case was nonsense but still gets big press with people like “Dial the truth ministries”. Anything to justify the “music is of the devil” stance.
Group dynamic is a funny thing. There was a point yesterday where it looked like the Man City fans were going to start fighting the police. People diving from the top of the stand to bottom because they could see an opportunity for smack someone’s head in. I think I would rather have billy graham.
Comment by Robb — May 12, 2008 @ 11:49 am
Here’s the difference – at least for me. At any large event (e.g., Greenbelt) one has to be mic’d and the music amplified or else only people in the first few rows can hear squat and the sound quality on the tapes will suck. Likewise, if there isn’t some degree of coordination and rehearsals in pulling off say the Sunday Eucharist at Greenbelt, it will turn into a logistical nightmare. And in a case like that, you do need walkie-talkies to ensure that say the communion kits are passed in a manner so it’s not a free-for-all.
But the major difference here is that when I see say Jonny DJ’ing a service, he feels out the crowd and say extends the music a bit if he sense the group is still in prayer or cuts it short a bit if he feels it’s time to move on. I’ve seen worship leaders cue the band where it felt natural – like these were musicians improvising off our cues to play on, wrap it up and the like. And what rocks is when the priest is also able to feel the same vibe so they work together in concert as though guided by the Holy Spirit.
I sense at the bulk of of the spiritual spectacles I’ve seen, it feels like the worship leader/priest have planned the service out to the point where there’s no room for the Holy Spirit to join in the dance.
Comment by becky — May 12, 2008 @ 1:39 pm
i love to be manipulated by great music, art, theatre, cinema… but not to have it manipulate my agenda. there’s enough crass jingoism on tv, don’t need it in church too. and the church these days is sadly not noted for its great art.
i shall choose what music i listen to to chill me out or to make my ears bleed or colon vibrate. i shall also not be buying into a vision i’m having sold to me from the front without being wary of the small print. invariably vision comes with small print and before you realise it you are tied into stuff you’d not expected… such as, how you should behave, what you should wear and which ego you should bow before in order for a smooth ride.
let’s love each other and sing. not sing about ‘how we wanna love each other’… it’s the wrong way round.
the question is ‘what are we going to do with our lives’… not ‘what does the church demand i do with my life.’
i’m not by any means advocating selfishness. rather that i will not have my will bent by the will of the institution or the insecure megalomaniac ego’s that have a ‘vision’, or what i prefer to call an ‘agenda’.
Comment by jonbirch — May 12, 2008 @ 1:45 pm
This is more true than I would like to admit. Scary.
Comment by JadedJabber — May 12, 2008 @ 2:34 pm
i love this one “do u feel the Holy Spirit moving tonight?” from the “worship leader”
p.s. i dont love it i cant stand it.
also when ppl are like yeah (worship leaders name) will take you into the throne room.”
love the emotional twisting
Comment by ben — May 12, 2008 @ 2:43 pm
Some of the times where i have felt as though the music i have chosen for a sunday morning has been the right choice has been where i have come to church on a sunday morning with a list and walked around and chatted to people and felt that there is a sense that what i have chosen is wrong. I then allow the morning to happen without any agenda and not knowing what was going to happen next. in times like these there tends to be more involvement from everyone where the congregation is not looking to a leader that has a set idea of what he/she wants to achieve. but feels as though it is a joint venture to step out and worship – From times like this we have had people grabbing a mic and praying/bring poetry/story telling, we’ve even had dance (which i hate but love that there is the freedom that they can express their worship in this way). They are actually very, very good at dancing – it’s just not my thing.
When stuff like this happens and happens spontaneously – people can then say oh that went well i will re-create that next week. It never works in the same way.
Comment by Will — May 12, 2008 @ 2:48 pm
Jon – At the RC school I teach in we had a guy come in last week fromthe diocese to talk about “catholic ethos”. He was very keen to point out that it is a relationship that we are invited into with a person. It is not a demand, it is an invitation.
The church is not there to demand anything. The church is there to invite us into relationship with the person of God. Anyone who is making demands is in conflict with free will (back to bruce almighty again).
Comment by Robb — May 12, 2008 @ 2:54 pm
32. Great art moves me without making me feel manipulated so I can then decide how I want to respond. For example, I saw a host of documentaries at the Tribeca Film Festival recently here in NYC – the films that made me want to be a part of that movement told the story in a way that I felt I could join in the parade. The film (most notably the Madonna documentary on Africa) that made me want to run for the hills “told” me how I could contribute to “the cause.”
The vision stuff freaks me out – here in the states we have people pushing “Evangelical Manifestos,” “Declarations of Faith” and other documents as we head into the 2008 Election – once you read it, it’s pretty obvious that the signers are progressive Democrats or conservative Republicans – that’s another post entirely but I see that manipulation happening in US church communities all the time.
Comment by becky — May 12, 2008 @ 2:59 pm
Will, I think you’re dead on the nail when you say about how trying to re-create something just doesn’t work. I’ve had these discussions with my Alevel Drama students about the same kind of thing – when something is real and meaningful (in acting OR worship) to try to re-create that exact thing just turns it into something artificial.
I love music in worship in lots of different ways but I have to ‘feel it’ myself, not have someone try to make me feel what they want me to feel because of their vision.
Comment by dadube — May 12, 2008 @ 3:19 pm
Hey I wish we had walky talkies in our church! Well, I at least wish the sermon would be relative to the rest of the service. Our group ussually goes out but some times we (are forced) to stay in the service and it always seems that the preacher always goes off at a tangent.
Comment by Anna — May 12, 2008 @ 5:25 pm
#29 Hey, JF. You diss-ing Billy Graham? I think he’s a very godly man. The press have tried and tried to find some dirt to dish on him and it’s not been forthcoming really.I’ve seen him live doing his thing on various occasions and I was totally amazed how un-emotional it all was. Being the total pessimist that I am, every time I thought, “Huh. No-one’ll go forward after that”. But they did, probably because most of them have been invited by folk who’ve been praying for them for a long time.
His type of crusades may not resonate with today’s culture. They may have had their day. I’m willing to grant you that. Some of the sown seed may have fallen among thorns or on stony ground but there’s been a harvest too. A huge one. Bigger than mine for sure (that wouldn’t be hard!)
Comment by AnneDroid — May 12, 2008 @ 10:03 pm
Once again, I blog something that’s on my mind, come over to ASBO Jesus and there is a cartoon all about it!!!
Comment by brunettekoala — May 12, 2008 @ 10:57 pm
interesting… the billy graham theme… i don’t think billy was employing any deliberate psychological tools (far too much integrity i think)… but, there is a dynamic thing that happens with crowds, an ‘in it together/strength in numbers’ type thing that you are definitely aware of going forward… i know, cos i went forward. there is a sense of things gently moving forward to a climax of people getting up and committing or recommitting. in the case of billy graham it is subtle, not cynical i believe, but none-the-less we should be aware of this dynamic taking place.
people know they’re broken and hurting and to be told that jesus provides the way forward is very appealing particularly in a crowd where you are not on your own.
i think if the church understood brokenness and were less scared of communing in the reality of brokenness rather than painting on a veneer of godliness you’d find a lot more people in church… the church would certainly become relevant again… which for most it isn’t right now.
Comment by jonbirch — May 12, 2008 @ 11:13 pm
“The church is there to invite us into relationship with the person of God. Anyone who is making demands is in conflict with free will.”
that’s the theory robb… it’d be great if that were the practise. i’m generalising of course.
Comment by jonbirch — May 12, 2008 @ 11:16 pm
This has nothing to do with the cartoon….but I finally bought my new camera lens and just thought I’d tell you lot.
Comment by Laura — May 12, 2008 @ 11:48 pm
Personally….
I can’t stand (most) worship music. Especially when directed to sing it over and over and over and over and over like every single repetition will somehow get us closer to God.
I am wary of the emotional part of it, too…because being moved (in whatever direction) is not synonymous with being moved by the Spirit, or hearing God speak, or any of that. It is exactly that – being moved by our emotions.
The same goes for background music during prayer, which is par for the course in my church…why is that necessary? I don’t need or want “prayer soundtracks.” What I need, during prayer, is silence. Not some sappy music designed to stir the emotional pot.
Just my .02 worth.
Comment by Jules — May 12, 2008 @ 11:54 pm
well done laura! you took your time! happy photographising!
hi jules. i wouldn’t mind the repetition if i liked in any way the tunes or the words served up. but as both often seem pretty darned dire i mind a lot.
Comment by jonbirch — May 13, 2008 @ 12:46 am
jules and jon – yep loads of worship music is total pants
But just occassionally there’s some I love (esp at sanctuary with groovy chill out stuff and no cheesy singing!)
Comment by dadube — May 13, 2008 @ 3:51 am
In one sense I agree – I did part of my MA on indoctrination.
But another part of me wonders whether it’s a little harsh and that a less cynical approach would say being in genuine worship with other people is spiritually very powerful and makes you more open to God speaking to you.
Comment by youthworkerpete — May 13, 2008 @ 10:13 am
great!
Comment by Dave — May 13, 2008 @ 3:08 pm
I spent my last weeks as a Christian in a wonderful church, small enough for everyone to care; dynamic enough to change, if not the world, then the London Borough of Barnet; progressively evangelical enough for me to take the words of the preachers as postcards from Gospelville.
So by the time I discovered that I didn’t fit in, I had autosuggested myself out of going to this beautiful community for help. I thought I was evil, and evil corrupts. As scarily, this beautiful community had autosuggested itself into a place where it couldn’t come out to me and fetch me back.
It took eight years avoiding church for the indoctrination to drop its grip, which it did, whereupon I realised that God’s not into any form of emotional manipulation at all. So now I avoid the ‘Christian’ label altogether. Fingers burnt too harshly, perhaps.
So maybe that’s a warning for churches, or maybe just another of God’s loving paradoxes! Go figure…
Comment by steve lancaster — May 13, 2008 @ 3:17 pm
No I wasn’t dissing Billy Graham. But I am wary of the group dynamics effect and I think ministry should stand alone without needing that backdrop.
I had already been taken to a Dick Saunders event when I was very small and been amazed at the numbers of people going forward then (I was almost too small to even understand what it was all about). So when I went to Billy Graham years later, I kinda knew the pattern the event would take and was curious about that process of people going up. I’m no psychologist now, let alone then, but there was a massive build up to the act (of coming to the front). It became the focus, and was referenced over and over, although of course it was done in a very sincere manner and based on a message of salvation. It was so gripping, I almost felt like going up myself, even though I was pretty disillusioned/rebellious (allowing for the fact I was only 11 or 12!) about church at the time. I’m just saying – as Jon has noted – that I felt this was down to group dynamics, more than a real personal engagement with a spiritual commitment. Three kids of my age from my youth group went forward. A week later, they couldn’t tell me why they had done it.
The main point of me contributing to this thread was simply to say that I hope people arrive at clarity on their lives and their spirituality through judicious reflection / prayer, rather than following patterns of thought and behaviour they’ve had put to them while (regularly / repeatedly) in a suggestible state.
The rest was me wondering why church services have developed so many aspects which would contribute to a state of suggestibility in the first place.
Comment by JF — May 13, 2008 @ 4:13 pm
[...] – the ongoing adventures of ASBO Jesus on worship [...]
Pingback by Random readings (and viewings) « What’s your point caller? — May 13, 2008 @ 5:46 pm
Steve L, I think often the `Christian` label is more trouble than it’s worth. Just be a follower of The Way. Get rid of all this middle crap.
Sas x
Comment by sarah — May 13, 2008 @ 10:10 pm
Given the fact ‘Christian’ is just as biblical as ‘the way’ I think it’s a shame people feel they ahve to drop it because of their experiences.
Would you stop labelling yourself human because some people are evil?
Maybe the two aren’t analagous – I’m not sure.
Comment by youthworkerpete — May 13, 2008 @ 10:31 pm
Agree with Jules #45.
I don’t mind a little chant after Communion, but I wish the post Communion prayer could go on in silence for a bit longer: 10 minutes or so.
Comment by Christopher — May 13, 2008 @ 10:57 pm
Sas (53), ‘n all,
Read this today in a great book called ‘Wild’, by Jay Griffiths, who is writing about her experiences in the Amazon rainforest. Got to share it with you!
“Where the path was most thickly overgrown, we would wait for Hector [their guide] to swipe several times with his machete for every step we could take. As we waited, we were knotted up in the forest, the runners tripped us, linea [creepers] twined around us, roots crisscrossed our feet, branches curled around us: we were held in the huge Gordian embrace of the jungle. But the path is not only a space, a thin absence of forest: keeping a path open is an act of care, for the path is a line of belonging and walking it repeatedly is an act of intimate love.”
So yes! – that’s the Way I know. It’s not only laid out before us, but it’s sustained and even recreated as we tred along it – for each other, not only for ourselves.
Steve
Comment by steve lancaster — May 14, 2008 @ 9:16 pm
youthworkerpete (54),
You got me thinking! Thank you. ‘Christian’ is an interesting label. I dug out my concordance!
‘Christian’ is only used three times in the bible:
1. Acts 11:26, where it’s applied (presumably by others) to the disciples;
2. Acts 26:28, where someone who is not a Christian (King Agrippa)uses it of Paul (and interestingly, v.29, Paul doesn’t claim it for himself – just wishes that his audience were like him spiritually);
3. 1 Peter 4:16, where it is a name which disciples have to bear – ie. one that is laid upon them by others, as (presumably) a term of ridicule, because Peter has to tell them not to be ashamed of it.
So – nowhere in the Bible does it say we should have to take on the name as a label. It does say we should ‘praise God that we bear that name’ – but you can praise God silently. A parallel might be found in the gay movement: if you’re gay in a homophobic society you might not use the terms of insult addressed to you by bigots around you, but still praise God that you are gay. Something like: ‘I am true to what I am, therefore the insults come as part of the package, but I am strong enough not to disown myself. I praise God that through this persecution God has shown me how strong I am.’
My feeling is that though some might raise the banner of Christianity, and that’s cool, in an age where everyone is quick to use labels to avoid really getting to know people, it might actually be a good idea for Christians who want to to try abandoning such outward forms of identity. Put it another way, there’s undeniable safety in numbers, and a good persecution complex – we’re in a Christian huddle – can sometimes be a way of hiding from God.
I dunno, what do you think?
Steve
Comment by steve lancaster — May 14, 2008 @ 10:01 pm
re. 1, 2, and 3 steve… that’s how i understand it too.
Comment by jonbirch — May 14, 2008 @ 11:11 pm
[...] The same thing with songs like “Just As I Am” which have been used so many times with one emotive purpose in mind so that eventually all you have to do is hear the first few notes of the song, to have the feeling, “Hmmm, is there something I should be feeling guilty about?” Not that conscience searching is a bad thing. But musically manipulated conscience probing? [...]
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[...] Jon @ Asbo Jesus made me simultaneously laugh and cry. [...]
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