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this is the first of the asbo cartoons based on what you ranted about.
given recent conversation this one from dennis coburn seemed a good place to start.
cheers dennis. 
May 14, 2008
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Ooh…reminds me of a visit to BCC whilst it was in the grip of gold tooth mania. As we watched people rolling around on the floor brandishing imagined swords (yes, really)the preacher reassured us there was nothing to worry about. “It’s just the spirit at work - don’t be afraid”. Yeah right.
Comment by clare — May 14, 2008 @ 10:48 am
This topic seems to be everywhere at the moment… (http://www.ignite.cd/index.cfm?section=communicate&midsection=85&subsection=&page=index&fp=viewtopic.php?p=24223#24223) or at least, everywhere in my periphery! In my mind, it sparks off a war of two minds… one wants to be completely open to all the amazing possibilities of the Holy Spirit, and that we can engage with Him actively as part of our communal worship experiences. The other a) gets the heeby-jeebies and b) is too skeptical to accept it.
Comment by Pete Huey — May 14, 2008 @ 11:54 am
What if the spirit is telling me to go to the back or leave?
Re #1 - 1 Corithians 14:40 “But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way”. open to interpretation I guess but doesn’t sound very orderly tp me!
Comment by Owen Biewahn — May 14, 2008 @ 12:32 pm
There are no redheads in that audience.
Comment by Lori — May 14, 2008 @ 1:23 pm
Perhaps red heads are not spiritual !!!
Comment by Miriam — May 14, 2008 @ 2:03 pm
perhaps the red heads arent there because its outside on a sunny day.
Comment by ben — May 14, 2008 @ 2:17 pm
could be redheads simply have more sense.
Comment by jonbirch — May 14, 2008 @ 2:22 pm
I am guilty of the whole come to the front thing - but I would never wear that suit -sorry Jon. Its become our ‘normal’ (the response not the suit) and therefore an OK thing to do - a ’safe’ way to respond. However I am concerned that sometimes its more a way of assessing the success of the meeting for the leadership. eg: “Good service this week?” - “Yes the response was amazing”.
I love the idea of the spirit suggesting that we stay where we are or even leave. I’ll give it a whirl and let you know……
Comment by drewman — May 14, 2008 @ 2:59 pm
I am concerned that sometimes its more a way of assessing the success of the meeting for the leadership
As a trainee teacher, we are always asked to assess success of activities informally by asking the kids to do thumbs up/down. I suggest you give all the congregation traffic light cards to hold up - it’s less wearing on the carpet.
You wear all talking about Billy Graham on another post the other day. I remember seeing him in the mid 80s at Anfield Stadium. I just went along out of curiosity. At the end he did the whole come down to the front thing. To this day I’m not convinced that most were going to respond to the Holy Spirit…I think it had more to do with the hallowed turf…
Comment by Carole — May 14, 2008 @ 4:29 pm
Aaagh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
‘wear’ is a typo…I meant ‘were’… I do know the difference!
Comment by Carole — May 14, 2008 @ 4:30 pm
people rolling around on the floor brandishing imagined swords
Thank you Clare. I had thought that my year 2s did not know how to behave themselves…my mind is at rest now I know it is just the Spirit moving in our class. The old sword thing raises its head again. What a larf. Sure it wasn’t a bunch of Star Wars fans playing with their light sabres?
one wants to be completely open to all the amazing possibilities of the Holy Spirit
Fair comment Pete, but I have to ask myself, if I were the Holy Spirit, would I really pick such a stupid way to signal my presence? Well…yeah, I probably would…but that’s not the point…It’s all a bit Bruce Almighty, innit?
Comment by Carole — May 14, 2008 @ 4:39 pm
I remember going to this meeting and the preacher was calling people forward and ‘laying hands’ (quite heavily with force I might add!) on people, and as a young (16 I think) Christian I went to go forward like nearly everyone did, but God actually took the legs out from under me so that I couldn’t get up from my seat!
I’m pretty certain that was God telling me my gut (that something wasn’t right) was right!
Comment by DrNick — May 14, 2008 @ 4:52 pm
Opps forgot to say, sometimes it is right to go ‘to the front’ or where ever there are people available to chat to and pray with, because confession/asking for help/prayer, or just having someone to moan at are the right things. I guess its all about discernment…
Comment by DrNick — May 14, 2008 @ 4:54 pm
When I covered Billy Graham’s last crusade in NYC, I noticed there were also counselors in the front to take down people’s information and follow-up. To Billy’s credit, unlike some other ministers, the newly saved weren’t solicited for money to save other similar lost souls.
Comment by becky — May 14, 2008 @ 5:00 pm
What about the notion of “your church isn’t spirit filled?”
My thoughts are..if it were spirit filled there wouldn’t be any room for you!
Great thoughts Jon!
Comment by Jeremy — May 14, 2008 @ 5:00 pm
Yeah, Jeremy, there are the spirit filled churches and the demon filled ones. I heard of someone leaving a church because of the demons there. If you don’t like the people, the music or the coffee, be honest…don’t blame it on the poor defenceless demons.
Comment by Carole — May 14, 2008 @ 5:07 pm
- the lazy ministry style - no need for any effort on the part of the minister, to just keep a look out for those who might benefit from a word of comfort before they quietly slip home!
Comment by subo — May 14, 2008 @ 6:04 pm
Off and on over the decades I’ve gone to charismatic church services and always come away feeling disturbed.
The main thing that disturbs me is me. Why can’t I get into it? Am I really such a bad Christian that I can’t experience that filling-of-the-Holy-Spirit? What is the matter with me? Why can’t I let go? I’m reserved by nature. I can’t even bring myself to shout at a football match. Is that bad? That’s the main thing that disturbs me, and it’s about me.
But the other thing that disturbs me sometimes is that the most extrovert people that are shouting across the church to their pals etc before the service starts seem often to be the ones who are out at the front, slain in the Spirit, barking like dogs or whatever at the end.
Lastly I once went forward at a service. The preacher put his hand on my head and gave it a good push. I was bigger than him though and I wasn’t sent to the floor. He told me I was resisting the Spirit but I was so in earnest I still don’t believe that was the case.
Comment by AnneDroid — May 14, 2008 @ 7:14 pm
AnneD - “If someone’s handing out blessings, you’ll find me at the front of the queue” - was my philosophy for a long time. I wanted so much to be open, available for God to do whatever he wanted
Trouble is, I always stood there like a lemon, feeling nothing and not sinking to the floor; and feeling passed by, not blessed. And yes, I felt others thought I was resisting the Spirit
Truth is, God did do what he wanted and blessing came by quieter ways. Now I accept the way God chooses to meet with me; and try to accept the way he meets with others
BUT! as much as I try to be gracious, I find a lot of what goes on (Florida currently) deeply worrying; my gut too says “no”, my head says “no” but something says “yeah, but if only…”
For we’d all like to be blessed up i guess; to feel there is a way of being in control of life’s reversals and being able to fix them.
But it’s not like that - but every time we help one another, share our story, God is present and will do whatever is his purpose to do
Comment by Chris F — May 14, 2008 @ 8:58 pm
where’s the fruits of all this?
falling over, playing with imaginary swords and imaginary gold teeth! (btw… if one person can prove to me from dental records that they were truly blessed with gold teeth, i’ll apologise for saying that)…
wise words btw chris f.
it’s not like pentecost no matter how much people would like it to be. it is simple excitement and over-excitement, i’ve seen it and that is what it looked like and i believe was. noisy personalities or people needing attention receiving attention. nothing wrong with receiving attention possibly, but let’s give it its correct name.
if you are one of those for whom nothing happened at one of these events and someone suggested you were resisting… just remember, they are over-excited, their chemicals are going mad and they want you to be as excited as they are. it is wise and disciplined to resist many things. i tend to get excited when real things happen… i find real good things totally irresistible.
‘the sword of the lord’ whatever next!? making toast for the holy ghost? leading worship on the lyre of the messiah? the cheeses of jesus!!!?
i felt the need to rant! no doubt someone’ll put me straight.
Comment by jonbirch — May 14, 2008 @ 9:21 pm
Jon..
shhhhhhhhh!
you’re spoiling your self.
;]
Comment by K-H-S — May 14, 2008 @ 9:34 pm
Fruits of the ’spirit’:
Joy
Peace
Patience
Kindness
Goodness
Faithfulness
Self-Control.
I think a good few of these are lacking at a good few of our ’spirit’ filled meetings.. ..no?
;]
Comment by K-H-S — May 14, 2008 @ 9:39 pm
Ha Ha that just made my DAY thankyou, It has also reminded me of some very naughty things I have done in the past, we often had visiting speakers/prophets or whatever they called them at the Church we went to and if you didn’t give in and go to the front the preacher would go on all night long!I got so fed up once I went to the front and because I was so tired I thought when he comes to me I will just fall down and be able to have a really nice sleep and thats what I did!! I know its wrong but hey I feel accepted here so I doubt you will hold it against me.
I do have some other confessions but I will save them for now.
Sorry.
BUT HEY an ASBO after me!!
Comment by dennis coburn — May 14, 2008 @ 9:39 pm
Oh and… Gentleness.
;]
Comment by K-H-S — May 14, 2008 @ 9:41 pm
“I think a good few of these are lacking at a good few of our ’spirit’ filled meetings.. ..no?”
yes!
hey dennis. great confession! looking forward to more of those!
btw. you earned your right to be asbo’d! 
Comment by jonbirch — May 14, 2008 @ 9:48 pm
completely off track, but Chris (19) I love the turn of phrase ‘like a lemon’ - church often made me feel like that…
I say that phrase to kids all the time and they just look very blankly in my direction!
Comment by dadube — May 15, 2008 @ 3:20 am
Carole love your suggestion of assessing and rating the talk/ sermon/ alter call!. I have some kids recently suggest we could ‘rate’ the teacher candidates they were interviewing by holding up cards with numbers on after each question they answered- could use that in church!.
Comment by soniamain — May 15, 2008 @ 6:13 am
This subject really freaks me out, don’t know why, when all the gold teeth stuff was happening in bath, they had loads of ’special’ services going on at a local church. A group of good friends went along, but i couldn’t do it, even talking about it now sends cold shivers down my back and makes me feel sick- maybe that’s the spirit!
Comment by soniamain — May 15, 2008 @ 6:16 am
Jon - “making toast for the holy ghost?” - hahahaha. That made me laugh.
Comment by AnneDroid — May 15, 2008 @ 6:33 am
My first experience of a local super church (I was nosey) was that the seron consisted of an hour looking at blue prints for the new building. Then there was an appeal for 2 million quid “because unlike all the other churches we are interested in the gospel. We’re not trying to keep the heating going”*. Then there was an altar call. 5 people gave their lives to Jesus because of those blue prints!! Alleluya, raise the Lord!! Amen!!
*I can’t be the only on who sees the irony of asking for money for a building whilst condemning others for having a building.
Comment by Robb — May 15, 2008 @ 8:47 am
no robb, you’re not the only one who sees the irony.
sonia 28… maybe it makes you feel sick because you are witnessing a kind of ’spiritualised’ gluttony. ‘more, more, more lord!”
Comment by jonbirch — May 15, 2008 @ 9:59 am
I was once at a Church outside Glasgow, during a time when God was doing amazing things in the Gypsy/traveller community (I knew nothing about it before, and haven’t heard much since - apparently about 60% of the community had become Christian in a few years).
It was a church where many could not read or write, nobody was brought up Christian, most members were very newly converted and most people had much lower inhibitions than most Churches.
What impressed me most (apart from the preacher’s pictorial notes) was a stern telling off, from the front, by a member who said the last few weeks, when they’ve announced a time of reflection and listening to God, people had been praying out loud, in tongues, shouting, etc. Then he said there’s a time and place for that - that’s when we talk to God. But when we stop to let God talk to us, we have to shut up and listen. And now there’ll be a time for us to listen to what God wants to say to us…
Comment by Andy S — May 15, 2008 @ 10:17 am
i think u can do come to the front stuff in the right way though.
Comment by ben — May 15, 2008 @ 10:31 am
sane people are a real asset andy s.
yep, i dare say you can ben. but why this obsession with getting people to the front? it’s an important question.
Comment by jonbirch — May 15, 2008 @ 3:15 pm
I think some sorts of people need to respond by actively doing something - similar to the different preferred styles of adult learning; others to stay still, be quiet, maybe others to chat in a group, others to pray, etc etc
So the mere act of moving may be for some a very good thing. I preached last year and ended by giving the option of coming to the front for a simple acted out response to the story I’d been telling, emphasising that I knew there were many who would not like it and it ws OK to stay put in their seats and do their business with God in their own way
To my astonishment (this is a church where opportunities like this don’t happen much!)over half the crowd came forward! - which left me in a bit of a logisitic mess, and the acted out thing was very brief for each!! But it seemed to help…
… any vacancies at a super church, spring harvest…??
Comment by Chris F — May 15, 2008 @ 5:06 pm
Whatever happened to wrestling with God?
Comment by sarah — May 15, 2008 @ 9:27 pm
Oh, and by the way, **** off ( to the man).
Sas x
Comment by sarah — May 15, 2008 @ 9:28 pm
Hey everyone, thank you so much for this. Had to catch up last few days worth and is really helpful as a few of us were trying to decide whther to go to Dudley, in the UK, where a lot of this is kicking off. I admit, I’m curious in a way of not wanting to miss out on what God might be doing, but why is it all so weird??
Comment by kim — May 16, 2008 @ 5:03 am
“Whatever happened to wrestling with God?”
that’s a very good question sas. it’s really not in vogue is it? it’s like all this stuff can be a massive substitute for real engagement. hmmm, you got me thinking.
Comment by jonbirch — May 16, 2008 @ 10:32 am
My friend got a gold filling. It helped her know her Dad really loved her. And she’s hasn’t abused it.
We’re supposed to stop our fellow man dying from lack of water.
Sas x
Comment by sarah — May 16, 2008 @ 10:40 am
hi kim. i think chasing after experiences completely misses the whole point of our faith. are we drug addicts or people who love and serve each other and the wider world? i’m afraid i believe this just might be another one of those enormous red herrings, like toronto etc. etc.
Comment by jonbirch — May 16, 2008 @ 10:42 am
Erm… this conversation is sort of verging towards the spirit filled gifts thread….
The tractarians believed that they were called very strongly to work in areas of massive deprevation. To perform this task they believed that they needed to be strengthened for the task by communing with God and His real presence every morning as it was through Him that they would be sustained throughout the day. The daily mass and the real presence became vitally important for their ministry.
For many charismatics, it is another form of sommuning with God that sustains their faith. It isn’t a bad thing, it is a meeting with God.
The problem is that when you take the mass and meet with God and consume and then do nothing, you are reducing God to a vending machine. When you reduce God to a ‘blessing’ and have no actions you are reducing God to a vending machine.
Oh crap. I’ve just realised that I have wasted the last 10 minutes writing this. This is nothing new. I should have just pulled out a bible and said “faith without works…”
Have we sorted out that there are ‘conservative-liberal-evangelical-charismatic-orthodox-catholic-holy-hipster-traditional-young-old-rich-poor-bible-believing-non-attending-emerging-alternative-free-established*’ charlatans out there?
There are also many good people of every flavour. [I personally like cookie dough flavoured church]
*if I have missed your brand, please insertit here.
Comment by Robb — May 16, 2008 @ 11:03 am
Can anyone tell me where I can be blessed with a gold tooth? I can’t find an NHS dentist and I don’t want to get sucked into an expensive monthly private plan.
Comment by Carole — May 16, 2008 @ 3:59 pm
I’d rather be blessed with pulp, dentin and enamel teath thanks
Comment by Robb — May 16, 2008 @ 7:55 pm
Beggars can’t be choosers
Comment by Carole — May 16, 2008 @ 8:00 pm
Actually, Robb, the more I think on what you said about the teeth, it’s quite absurd, isn’t it? God the all powerful, making do with human repair jobs instead of the real teeth made new. I expect some time soon there will be an outpouring of the Spirit which will result in unexplained new titanium hip joints for all (after a Christian conference for NHS Trust Administrators). As long as the Spirit doesn’t manifest itself in silicon implants, or Pete Burn style collagen lips.
Comment by Carole — May 16, 2008 @ 8:16 pm
Erm. I’ll stick to my lack of fillings thanks
Comment by Robb — May 16, 2008 @ 10:52 pm
appeals fascinate me, I want to write my dissertation on why people use them. Finney brought them in as a manipulation tool really, we try to make them necessary and ’spiritual’ to dupe the masses. Why is the front special? How is walking connected to salvation? The early church had no buildings, so no front, how were people saved or ‘ministered’ to? Our new methods are always better than God’s aren’t they? Glad you’re hitting this nonsense.
Comment by John(spurgeons) — May 21, 2008 @ 11:01 pm
thanks john. appeals fascinate me too. would be interesting to take a professional psychologist along to one of these meetings and see how they reported it. has anyone else done extensive academic study on this subject? it’ll certainly make an interesting dissertation. make sure you put it on line when you’re done.
Comment by jonbirch — May 21, 2008 @ 11:36 pm
would be interesting to take a professional psychologist along to one of these meetings
Where’s Dr Ruth? She’s been….
Comment by Robb — May 22, 2008 @ 8:30 am