I sometimes wonder if being a goat is easier than being a sheep of a slightly different breed…..
the sheep feel okay when it is someone totally different – but if you are saying that you are a sheep, but you’re not the ‘right kind of sheep’, I’ve found that you can be in trouble.
I think i agree with Mark (2) it maybe a generalisation but it generally the norm.
I often wonder if Jon is afly on the wall as he sometimes gets at what is happening in my Church.
Thee has always been a problem with Churches accepting, we had an issue last week where one of the Church leaders KICKED off and I mean spitting and shouting telling my youth group to get out of the Church NOW, sadly they did and will probably never return and I am devastated.
Why? just because they wont do what he wants and be quiet in their beautiful sanctuary, I say theirs because they stole it from God.
Anyway I am off to try and repair what has been shattered.
Oh dear, I am going to go against the grain… again….
I tend to find that being the black sheep of the church family works in my favour. People in the communities I have been part of really want to reach out to people who are real. I seem to be proof that they have done it. They then like the fact that I have something to offer other than quiet conformity.
But on the other hand I also have the benefit of being so theologically qualified that I can make anyone who tries to pull the “who the firk is this guy telling us this” card that I can make them disappear in a pile of degrees.
Again I write a paragraph that makes me look like a dick*. In my mind I have the curious incident of the annual parish meeting. Finance came up and someone tried to suggest that we needed to pass the plate at weddings and baptisms because “they want to pay but they have no opportunity”. Needless to say I disagreed… quite strongly…. and was young…. but they don’t like that….. my qualification is that I am 90…. erm no…..
I still look like a dick. Even with an explanation
*if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck… perhaps it is a duck!
Robb: Maybe you’re a goat not a duck? Sounds like you’re doing great stuff, even if it doesn’t always sound right when you say it.
Dennis: I guess there’s an element of ‘one person’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter’ in situations like this, but it’s a shame we become so attached to material things that we lose sight of the important issues like inclusion. On the other hand, I don’t know how extreme the youth group’s behaviour was, and kicking up a storm can be seen as lack of respect not just for individuals but for God.
Seems unlikely that losing the plot would help the situation though, regardless of what went before.
As with most of these cartoons, you have to read the comments to get any semblance of positiveness about the church.
Which is a bit of a shame, I think. But, it’s your blog, and your observations are always interesting – it’s like reading Adrian Plass without the humility or understanding that he may not know best
I had a close friend in college who hated sitting near the front of class. His reason: “Everyone stares at the back of my head.” My point, of course… is that no one stared at the back of his head, but he truly believed it.
hi robbie… i guess in a way it depends what your view of positive is. as i’ve said many times… these cartoons are a conversation starter. at best they only represent something of the truth… at worst, possibly none. i’m sorry you feel i have no humility or understanding. i hope you’re not right. i do this believing it to be a positive thing, not a negative thing… and i am trying to address a few serious issues in my own way… and sometimes, i admit, i do not sugar coat the critique with an ‘it’s okay really’ type of slant… because these things really aren’t okay. there is much about the church to be admired and there are many places on the web where one can go and admire them… even more in the ‘real’ world. but satire is what satire does… i believe i’m doing a helpful thing for now, but recognise i can’t please all the people all of the time… so i hope you’ll excuse me if i don’t try.
there’s another cartoon there caroline i’m sure… but fearful conformists rule the world and ultimately hold the power. fearful conformity leads to fearful outcomes, so i felt it best to mention it in a cartoon. fearful conformity wouldn’t be so bad if it didn’t include bullying and pro-active first-striking in its armoury… but it does.
you could say, poor old america for fearing communism… poor old whites for fearing blacks… poor old government for fearing being trounced at the next election… but it doesn’t wash. fear or no fear we all have to take responsibility for our actions or non-actions.
yes, we should be gracious to people making mistakes, i need more grace than most afforded to me. but not saying wrong is wrong is just turning a blind eye and not showing grace at all.
Well at my church we try to be as accepting as possible. Quite a few of our congregation are, what you may consider, “alternative” our (soon to be ordained) Lay Curate is a metal head really. However this doesn’t mean that we exclude more “normal” (I reluctantly use the word in the absence of a better one) people. Our congregation is pretty diverse.
We have just heard that our new vicar is going to be a woman, a very nice, very Godly and intelligent woman by all accounts but one of our youth leaders said that when he went to a baptism at his old church this weekend the couple of people who found out about this didn’t seem quite as happy about it as we are. (i.e because they don’t agree with women in ministry)
Jon (19): “there is much about the church to be admired”. Absolutely.
Personally, I know (because people have told me) I can sometimes come across as rather negative because I focus on what is wrong (or can be improved). I can assure you I usually look for the good first, but when I find it, I often assume everyone else can see it too and therefore it doesn’t require comment! A friend of mine calls it ‘missing bits out’ (as opposed to ’stating the blindingly obvious’).
Perhaps that is why some people, like Robbie, sometimes feel this blog is too focussed on church-bashing. After all, many of the most vehment (spelling?) critics are also committed members of local churches.
Caroline (18): I agree. But having read Jon’s response, he has a very valid point, and I wouldn’t put the needs or weaknesses of the “fragile, fearful conformists” (of whom I suspect I am one, at least sometimes) before the need to honour other people, however tough that may be. Admitting your own weaknesses is always harder than hiding behind the weaknesses of others.
Where did I read this today: “Without religion, there would still be good people doing good and evil people doing evil. But it takes religion to make good people do evil.” A bit trite maybe, but why else would “good” people do the evil of pre-judging someone simply because they are a woman!?!?
BTW I think metal stopped being “alternative” in about 1985
James 20: thats so mean! Why are people against that? I guess its kindof present in my church too. I was at a prayer session and we prayed for a new minister. (we dont have one, its not like we just want a new one cos were bored of the last haha!)But The older people were praying for a suitable man for the job! With a few looks between some of the people thinking ‘what!?’ they then later added woman too!
BTW, doesnt God seperate the goats from the sheep? Im confuzzled.
the judging because shes a woman, is because some people believe when paul talks about women not teaching men in the church it isnt cultural. im sorta divided on the issue as i havent done much research on the issue. sometimes it is because people are trying to obet what they think the bible is trying to teach them
Another Woman vicar in our team wrote an essay on it when she was training in the ministry. She attended a VERY conservative college and was the only woman there training in the ministry. I haven’t read it but I am told its a very good and interesting read (not by her but by a good friend of mine).
Paul had a very methodist approach to his theology – it was based upon what worked in practice and the need of the moment.
In this matter he makes a statement and then completely contradicts himself. He effectively says “I won’t have a woman in authority over a man….. except Doris because she’s good at it and knows her stuff… and Pam too….. OK alright then….”
Lol, Robb. Like it. Doris and Pam are new Bible characters on me though.
In Scotland I’m known as a wumminminister (always pronounced as all one word).
Incidentally, a free idea for all those of you who might find themselves talking to a group, with the aid of powerpoint. An idea I felt free to steal when i first saw it! Google images for pictures of sheep and goats. You will find something very surprising (well it was to me) – that some species of goats look like sheep and some species of sheep look like goats. Pop them all onto powerpoint (starting with obvious traditional images)and get the kids (pun intended) to tell which is which – harder than it looks. The point is, when it comes to the church, God is the only one who is called upon to judge which is which.
AnneDroid – Look on the bright side, I can’t stop my mother using the term “lady vicar”. I think the sign in her head just flashes “malfunction, does not compute”. She is a pre Vat II RC who only went back to church 10 years ago. I don’t think she was really ready for english….
Every time I hear her say it all I hear is the little boy in the back of my head sniggering “lady boy”
hi janetp. i believe that when confronted with a turd the right thing to do is to warn your friends not to step in it. i don’t believe polishing turds to be a solution to the turd problem… throwing them in the trash or flushing them away is the only option. things that make church stink (church turds if you like) need flushing. we need to name the turds (by which i mean ‘recognise them’… not adopt them and call them pet names like ‘barry’ or ‘debbie’) and get rid of them. thanks for getting me.
chris f… not heard that routine. brilliant and true, sad but hilarious.
dennis. sounds sad.
sas. don’t know what to say. sounds awful. so sorry.
I guess the problem with being part of any church community is that it is a really negative experience. For example, the four people with the loudest voices and biggest criticisms are commenting on most services. The majority who are looking for a breath of fresh air are quietly smiling about their recent experiences and wispering in hushed voices in corners of the building. What do the people who have done the work got as their main feedback? The four loud and rude minority voices. They would probably also say that they are requesting a removal of turds – the young and active turds.
For some reason I seem to have come out of the otherside of my ranting and into a tollerant utopia. Normal service will be resumed soon I’m sure.
I have expressed elsewhere my annoyance with goats – eat everything, have no manners and butt you in the arse. But then again, show me one church pioneer who didn’t have goat-like qualities. I’m here in Rhode Island researching my ancestor Roger Williams – he paid a steep price for being a major billy goat but he was the first pioneer of religious tolerance here in America. Those of us in the states owe a lot to him but man he paid one helluva price.
hi all my fellow sheep, have just read Brennan Manning “The Ragamuffin Gospel: Good News for the Bedraggled, Beat-Up, and Burnt Out”, Brennan goes to great lengths to get you to notice your silky beard.
I’m not saying you have no humility or understanding – that would be a ridiculous thing to say – I’m saying it doesn’t normally come across in the cartoons.
I enjoy them very much, as someone who’s been a Christian about 5 years now (although if I’d seen half the things you draw, I’d have moved church by now!); the ones I like best and I remember are the ones that illustrate positive things about faith/church.
My worry is when I wonder what sort of impression someone who wasn’t a Christian might get from them; would they feel more or less inclined to accept their friend’s invitation to come to church? Would they break stereotypes or reinforce them?
That’s the sort of thing I ask myself. I regularly poke fun at little institutions/foibles in my own church/group of churches, but generally only in front of people who I don’t think it will affect negatively.
But that’s just my take on how that should work…as I count myself someone who knows about the good as well as the bad, I can personally enjoy your observations!
I have used a couple of cartoons in a service last week. The service was on grace. Both of them were positive affirmations of the wonder that is grace and the freely offered nature of it. Sometimes the positive can be lost when the current* thought is negative…
*Get it? Current? Positive and negative? Current? You know, like measured in Amps…. Oh never mind….
Robbie, re your comment, 44, having recently left a church I’d been part of 17 years I needed to talk about it with my wouldn’t-call-themselves-Christians-all-of-them friends at work. I haven’t hid what certain “Christians” did to me, I don’t think people are stupid, and I certainly wouldn’t want them joining the church I’ve left, because I don’t want them to get hurt.
The whole process has made me a lot more real with myself and consequently there are a lot less barriers between me and my friends at work.
H*ll yeah! CAN I GET A AMEN (Turk-stylee from Scrubs).
Robb, I don’t care, I like you, you’ve never been anything less than having integrity. So I don’t think you are part of the problem.
Anyway I’ve been part of the problem so I can’t talk but I’m not part now so I can. It’s so much better to be out here than in that myopic dream world (of the church I was in).
Could we run this with more positive words, to encourage churches to get it right: “Martin found that not being a goat was enough for the others in the flock to accept him”
I know it’s not your style – but I’d love to put it in our church newsletter with words like that.
Comment by Peter Parslow — June 26, 2008 @ 7:59 pm
*nods*
Comment by shelly — June 16, 2008 @ 3:49 am
Accepting different doesn’t happen in a church. Conformity is desired and the only thing accepted.
Comment by Mark — June 16, 2008 @ 4:27 am
yep!
Comment by Laura — June 16, 2008 @ 5:46 am
All due respect, Mark, but I reckon that could be a SLIGHTLY sweeping generalisation?
Comment by AnneDroid — June 16, 2008 @ 7:12 am
I sometimes wonder if being a goat is easier than being a sheep of a slightly different breed…..
the sheep feel okay when it is someone totally different – but if you are saying that you are a sheep, but you’re not the ‘right kind of sheep’, I’ve found that you can be in trouble.
Comment by jody — June 16, 2008 @ 7:20 am
I think i agree with Mark (2) it maybe a generalisation but it generally the norm.
I often wonder if Jon is afly on the wall as he sometimes gets at what is happening in my Church.
Thee has always been a problem with Churches accepting, we had an issue last week where one of the Church leaders KICKED off and I mean spitting and shouting telling my youth group to get out of the Church NOW, sadly they did and will probably never return and I am devastated.
Why? just because they wont do what he wants and be quiet in their beautiful sanctuary, I say theirs because they stole it from God.
Anyway I am off to try and repair what has been shattered.
Comment by dennis — June 16, 2008 @ 7:35 am
Oh my look at my spelling mistakes, I am tired!
Comment by dennis — June 16, 2008 @ 7:36 am
Or maybe it was the tears in my eyes.
Comment by dennis — June 16, 2008 @ 7:36 am
Oh dear, I am going to go against the grain… again….
I tend to find that being the black sheep of the church family works in my favour. People in the communities I have been part of really want to reach out to people who are real. I seem to be proof that they have done it. They then like the fact that I have something to offer other than quiet conformity.
But on the other hand I also have the benefit of being so theologically qualified that I can make anyone who tries to pull the “who the firk is this guy telling us this” card that I can make them disappear in a pile of degrees.
Again I write a paragraph that makes me look like a dick*. In my mind I have the curious incident of the annual parish meeting. Finance came up and someone tried to suggest that we needed to pass the plate at weddings and baptisms because “they want to pay but they have no opportunity”. Needless to say I disagreed… quite strongly…. and was young…. but they don’t like that….. my qualification is that I am 90…. erm no…..
I still look like a dick. Even with an explanation
*if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck… perhaps it is a duck!
Comment by Robb — June 16, 2008 @ 8:24 am
Very true.
Comment by The Razzler — June 16, 2008 @ 9:41 am
Dennis, you’ve got me weeping too.
Like the angel said to Daniel, “Be strong now, be strong, o man highly approved”
Comment by Chris F — June 16, 2008 @ 12:09 pm
Robb – pass the plate at weddings???!!!
Before we know it, people will be accusing the church of only being interested in getting money out of people…
Comment by Chris F — June 16, 2008 @ 12:11 pm
Robb: Maybe you’re a goat not a duck? Sounds like you’re doing great stuff, even if it doesn’t always sound right when you say it.
Dennis: I guess there’s an element of ‘one person’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter’ in situations like this, but it’s a shame we become so attached to material things that we lose sight of the important issues like inclusion. On the other hand, I don’t know how extreme the youth group’s behaviour was, and kicking up a storm can be seen as lack of respect not just for individuals but for God.
Seems unlikely that losing the plot would help the situation though, regardless of what went before.
Good luck with mending what has been damaged.
Comment by janetp — June 16, 2008 @ 12:13 pm
As with most of these cartoons, you have to read the comments to get any semblance of positiveness about the church.
Which is a bit of a shame, I think. But, it’s your blog, and your observations are always interesting – it’s like reading Adrian Plass without the humility or understanding that he may not know best
Comment by Robble — June 16, 2008 @ 12:39 pm
My, my, he doesn’t even realise that he’s in the wrong congregation?
Since when Jesus gathers goats anyway?
Comment by zefi — June 16, 2008 @ 1:24 pm
I had a close friend in college who hated sitting near the front of class. His reason: “Everyone stares at the back of my head.” My point, of course… is that no one stared at the back of his head, but he truly believed it.
Lori
Comment by lolori — June 16, 2008 @ 1:56 pm
This by far is one of my absolute favorite (favourite, in ‘english’)! I love it! Keep it up man!
Comment by scanartist — June 16, 2008 @ 2:07 pm
hmm, accepting, welcoming and learning from the different is difficult…
..it is not only in church that that is the case…
and if it’s difficult, can’t we be a little bit gracious with those who get it wrong…
..or is it only goats and dark sheep who deserve grace.. not the fragile, fearful conformists?
Comment by Caroline — June 16, 2008 @ 2:17 pm
hi robbie… i guess in a way it depends what your view of positive is. as i’ve said many times… these cartoons are a conversation starter. at best they only represent something of the truth… at worst, possibly none. i’m sorry you feel i have no humility or understanding. i hope you’re not right. i do this believing it to be a positive thing, not a negative thing… and i am trying to address a few serious issues in my own way… and sometimes, i admit, i do not sugar coat the critique with an ‘it’s okay really’ type of slant… because these things really aren’t okay. there is much about the church to be admired and there are many places on the web where one can go and admire them… even more in the ‘real’ world. but satire is what satire does… i believe i’m doing a helpful thing for now, but recognise i can’t please all the people all of the time… so i hope you’ll excuse me if i don’t try.
there’s another cartoon there caroline i’m sure… but fearful conformists rule the world and ultimately hold the power. fearful conformity leads to fearful outcomes, so i felt it best to mention it in a cartoon. fearful conformity wouldn’t be so bad if it didn’t include bullying and pro-active first-striking in its armoury… but it does.
you could say, poor old america for fearing communism… poor old whites for fearing blacks… poor old government for fearing being trounced at the next election… but it doesn’t wash. fear or no fear we all have to take responsibility for our actions or non-actions.
yes, we should be gracious to people making mistakes, i need more grace than most afforded to me. but not saying wrong is wrong is just turning a blind eye and not showing grace at all.
Comment by jonbirch — June 16, 2008 @ 2:37 pm
Well at my church we try to be as accepting as possible. Quite a few of our congregation are, what you may consider, “alternative” our (soon to be ordained) Lay Curate is a metal head really. However this doesn’t mean that we exclude more “normal” (I reluctantly use the word in the absence of a better one) people. Our congregation is pretty diverse.
We have just heard that our new vicar is going to be a woman, a very nice, very Godly and intelligent woman by all accounts but one of our youth leaders said that when he went to a baptism at his old church this weekend the couple of people who found out about this didn’t seem quite as happy about it as we are. (i.e because they don’t agree with women in ministry)
Comment by James — June 16, 2008 @ 2:46 pm
Jon (19): “there is much about the church to be admired”. Absolutely.
Personally, I know (because people have told me) I can sometimes come across as rather negative because I focus on what is wrong (or can be improved). I can assure you I usually look for the good first, but when I find it, I often assume everyone else can see it too and therefore it doesn’t require comment! A friend of mine calls it ‘missing bits out’ (as opposed to ’stating the blindingly obvious’).
Perhaps that is why some people, like Robbie, sometimes feel this blog is too focussed on church-bashing. After all, many of the most vehment (spelling?) critics are also committed members of local churches.
Caroline (18): I agree. But having read Jon’s response, he has a very valid point, and I wouldn’t put the needs or weaknesses of the “fragile, fearful conformists” (of whom I suspect I am one, at least sometimes) before the need to honour other people, however tough that may be. Admitting your own weaknesses is always harder than hiding behind the weaknesses of others.
Comment by janetp — June 16, 2008 @ 3:21 pm
James (20):
Where did I read this today: “Without religion, there would still be good people doing good and evil people doing evil. But it takes religion to make good people do evil.” A bit trite maybe, but why else would “good” people do the evil of pre-judging someone simply because they are a woman!?!?
BTW I think metal stopped being “alternative” in about 1985
Comment by JF — June 16, 2008 @ 3:41 pm
Personally, I prefer being the otter in the flock.
Or if not that, at least an Irish Wolfhound.
No, maybe a serval.
Comment by Forrest — June 16, 2008 @ 3:57 pm
James 20: thats so mean! Why are people against that? I guess its kindof present in my church too. I was at a prayer session and we prayed for a new minister. (we dont have one, its not like we just want a new one cos were bored of the last haha!)But The older people were praying for a suitable man for the job! With a few looks between some of the people thinking ‘what!?’ they then later added woman too!
BTW, doesnt God seperate the goats from the sheep? Im confuzzled.
Comment by Anna — June 16, 2008 @ 4:30 pm
the judging because shes a woman, is because some people believe when paul talks about women not teaching men in the church it isnt cultural. im sorta divided on the issue as i havent done much research on the issue. sometimes it is because people are trying to obet what they think the bible is trying to teach them
Comment by ben — June 16, 2008 @ 4:57 pm
Another Woman vicar in our team wrote an essay on it when she was training in the ministry. She attended a VERY conservative college and was the only woman there training in the ministry. I haven’t read it but I am told its a very good and interesting read (not by her but by a good friend of mine).
Comment by James — June 16, 2008 @ 5:16 pm
Paul had a very methodist approach to his theology – it was based upon what worked in practice and the need of the moment.
In this matter he makes a statement and then completely contradicts himself. He effectively says “I won’t have a woman in authority over a man….. except Doris because she’s good at it and knows her stuff… and Pam too….. OK alright then….”
Comment by Robb — June 16, 2008 @ 6:19 pm
Lol, Robb. Like it. Doris and Pam are new Bible characters on me though.
In Scotland I’m known as a wumminminister (always pronounced as all one word).
Incidentally, a free idea for all those of you who might find themselves talking to a group, with the aid of powerpoint. An idea I felt free to steal when i first saw it! Google images for pictures of sheep and goats. You will find something very surprising (well it was to me) – that some species of goats look like sheep and some species of sheep look like goats. Pop them all onto powerpoint (starting with obvious traditional images)and get the kids (pun intended) to tell which is which – harder than it looks. The point is, when it comes to the church, God is the only one who is called upon to judge which is which.
Comment by AnneDroid — June 16, 2008 @ 9:03 pm
We’ve just realised after 20 and 17 years in our church respectively that they aren’t going to accept us as we really are. That’s why we left.
Comment by sarah — June 16, 2008 @ 9:08 pm
Dennis – feeling for ya.
Sas
Comment by sarah — June 16, 2008 @ 9:10 pm
All we can bring to God is who we are
and the mystery is that he accepts us. Something about go and do likewise…it’s late…
Comment by gilly — June 16, 2008 @ 9:38 pm
I expect many of you have seen this – but for those who haven’t:
I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump. I ran over and said: “Stop. Don’t do it.”
“Why shouldn’t I?” he asked.
“Well, there’s so much to live for!”
“Like what?”
“Are you religious?”
He said, “Yes.”
I said, “Me too. Are you Christian or Buddhist?”
“Christian.”
“Me too. Are you Catholic or Protestant?”
“Protestant.”
“Me too. Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?”
“Baptist.”
“Wow. Me too. Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?”
“Baptist Church of God.”
“Me too. Are you original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?”
“Reformed Baptist Church of God.”
“Me too. Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?”
He said: “Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915.”
I said: “Die, heretic scum,” and pushed him off.
Comment by Chris F — June 16, 2008 @ 9:40 pm
Emo did this. It was SO funny.
Sas
Comment by sarah — June 16, 2008 @ 9:49 pm
AnneDroid – Look on the bright side, I can’t stop my mother using the term “lady vicar”. I think the sign in her head just flashes “malfunction, does not compute”. She is a pre Vat II RC who only went back to church 10 years ago. I don’t think she was really ready for english….
Every time I hear her say it all I hear is the little boy in the back of my head sniggering “lady boy”
Comment by Robb — June 16, 2008 @ 11:31 pm
hi janetp. i believe that when confronted with a turd the right thing to do is to warn your friends not to step in it. i don’t believe polishing turds to be a solution to the turd problem… throwing them in the trash or flushing them away is the only option. things that make church stink (church turds if you like) need flushing. we need to name the turds (by which i mean ‘recognise them’… not adopt them and call them pet names like ‘barry’ or ‘debbie’) and get rid of them. thanks for getting me.
chris f… not heard that routine. brilliant and true, sad but hilarious.
dennis. sounds sad.
sas. don’t know what to say. sounds awful. so sorry.
Comment by jonbirch — June 17, 2008 @ 12:06 am
Hi Jon. Naming turds – now there’s an image I won’t forget in a hurry! :0)
Comment by janetp — June 17, 2008 @ 9:09 am
I guess the problem with being part of any church community is that it is a really negative experience. For example, the four people with the loudest voices and biggest criticisms are commenting on most services. The majority who are looking for a breath of fresh air are quietly smiling about their recent experiences and wispering in hushed voices in corners of the building. What do the people who have done the work got as their main feedback? The four loud and rude minority voices. They would probably also say that they are requesting a removal of turds – the young and active turds.
For some reason I seem to have come out of the otherside of my ranting and into a tollerant utopia. Normal service will be resumed soon I’m sure.
Comment by Robb — June 17, 2008 @ 9:41 am
Hey annedroid I may use that idea for our youth group blog, I already wanted to post the cartoon to it later today, thanks for the inspiration
Comment by James — June 17, 2008 @ 9:45 am
Jonboy, thanks for the love.
It is fucking awful but your pages are one place I can go and spill.
You lot are my church away from church, in a way.
We feel so much better coming out of it, will post more later.
Cheers
Sas
Comment by sarah — June 17, 2008 @ 10:58 am
I have expressed elsewhere my annoyance with goats – eat everything, have no manners and butt you in the arse. But then again, show me one church pioneer who didn’t have goat-like qualities. I’m here in Rhode Island researching my ancestor Roger Williams – he paid a steep price for being a major billy goat but he was the first pioneer of religious tolerance here in America. Those of us in the states owe a lot to him but man he paid one helluva price.
Comment by becky — June 17, 2008 @ 1:47 pm
Anna, #24, I’m confuzzled too.
Comment by Hayley — June 17, 2008 @ 3:52 pm
hi all my fellow sheep, have just read Brennan Manning “The Ragamuffin Gospel: Good News for the Bedraggled, Beat-Up, and Burnt Out”, Brennan goes to great lengths to get you to notice your silky beard.
Comment by subo — June 17, 2008 @ 9:18 pm
Baaa!
Comment by sarah — June 17, 2008 @ 10:26 pm
Jon
Thanks for your reply.
I’m not saying you have no humility or understanding – that would be a ridiculous thing to say – I’m saying it doesn’t normally come across in the cartoons.
I enjoy them very much, as someone who’s been a Christian about 5 years now (although if I’d seen half the things you draw, I’d have moved church by now!); the ones I like best and I remember are the ones that illustrate positive things about faith/church.
My worry is when I wonder what sort of impression someone who wasn’t a Christian might get from them; would they feel more or less inclined to accept their friend’s invitation to come to church? Would they break stereotypes or reinforce them?
That’s the sort of thing I ask myself. I regularly poke fun at little institutions/foibles in my own church/group of churches, but generally only in front of people who I don’t think it will affect negatively.
But that’s just my take on how that should work…as I count myself someone who knows about the good as well as the bad, I can personally enjoy your observations!
Comment by Robble — June 19, 2008 @ 10:45 am
I have used a couple of cartoons in a service last week. The service was on grace. Both of them were positive affirmations of the wonder that is grace and the freely offered nature of it. Sometimes the positive can be lost when the current* thought is negative…
*Get it? Current? Positive and negative? Current? You know, like measured in Amps…. Oh never mind….
Comment by Robb — June 19, 2008 @ 11:02 am
Robbie, re your comment, 44, having recently left a church I’d been part of 17 years I needed to talk about it with my wouldn’t-call-themselves-Christians-all-of-them friends at work. I haven’t hid what certain “Christians” did to me, I don’t think people are stupid, and I certainly wouldn’t want them joining the church I’ve left, because I don’t want them to get hurt.
The whole process has made me a lot more real with myself and consequently there are a lot less barriers between me and my friends at work.
Cheers
Sarah
Comment by sarah — June 19, 2008 @ 10:31 pm
I hurt like hell a lot of the time.
Jesus is coll as fuck.
er…. sorry for the profanity but he is!!
I can relate to everything you say Sarah.
I am part of the problem. I wish I could say that we are the model shurch “come here” but we can’t. We’re flawed like everypne. Sorry………..
Comment by Robb — June 20, 2008 @ 12:34 am
Coll = cool!!
Comment by Robb — June 20, 2008 @ 12:34 am
Jesus is cool as f**k.
In fact he’s cooler than f*ck
H*ll yeah! CAN I GET A AMEN (Turk-stylee from Scrubs).
Robb, I don’t care, I like you, you’ve never been anything less than having integrity. So I don’t think you are part of the problem.
Anyway I’ve been part of the problem so I can’t talk but I’m not part now so I can. It’s so much better to be out here than in that myopic dream world (of the church I was in).
Love ya!
Scrubs section (bit dark but well funny): http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsd9vkQmpFw
Comment by sarah — June 20, 2008 @ 11:21 am
Could we run this with more positive words, to encourage churches to get it right: “Martin found that not being a goat was enough for the others in the flock to accept him”
I know it’s not your style – but I’d love to put it in our church newsletter with words like that.
Comment by Peter Parslow — June 26, 2008 @ 7:59 pm
This is one of your best ones so far. Great blog.
Comment by Hazel — June 26, 2008 @ 9:31 pm
[...] Enjoying: *sigh* This is so sadly true of church people. [...]
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