i guess one of the big things to be questioning when it is looked at like this is the one church bit. When this creed is read out do sub clauses have to be added. One holy and catholic church unless a)……. b)……. c) etc.
I’m not poking fun but it shows how things like this can bring real division where there should be real oneness. It’s sad.
This is another subject that gets people hot under the collar eh?
We had an amazing female minister at our church for 20 years. (Not quite the same I know) but she has told us many unpleasant stories in the past. For example the time she was at a convention and all the pastors were asked to go forward for prayer and blessings. I think she was the only female that went forward and she was *totally* ignored. Terrible!
I just don’t understand what the problem is.
Times have changed from when the bible was written.
The man over the women gosh what an un holy thought….. must go wife just called have to put out the washing and pick the kids up before she come home from work.
I vote for the one in pink…
But should we be voting at all? is Church a democracy? If not then who make the decisions and who gives them the authority to make the decisions…off the point slightly
From a personnel point of view I think its great to have both male and female Pastor, Vicar’s, Bishops etc generally a female has a more nurturing and caring side to your average male ideal for Church leadership. I can’t see anywhere in the Bible that counters this either, thou I sure some one will put me right….
On the equality point Wikip’ says
1. (uncountable) The fact of being equal.
2. (uncountable) (mathematics) The fact of being equal, of having the same value.
3. (uncountable) The equal treatment of people irrespective of social or cultural differences.
If we are all equal before God then we must be equal before one another so should we place anyone before others because of sex, gender, race or birth? Should not all thing be on merit, experience or selection from peers?
On the flip side there were a lot of men AND women who left the CofE the first time this issue was raised about Vicar’s. A lot of them went off and joined the Catholic Church because they shared the same values. ( a point I have always found amusing is that it is slightly odd the way the Catholic church is seen as a male leadership domain when they spend so much time praying to the Virgin Mary, I am sure somone will put me right on this point as well)
Re what is Leadership love this Quotation
Leadership means that a group, large or small, is willing to entrust authority to a person who has shown judgement, wisdom, personal appeal, and proven competence – Walt Disney
btw Jon love the curves on the New Bishop much more attractive than the spiky mans ropes
I don’t know a great deal about this from personal experience since we are well back in the dark ages in our church. You wouldn’t think that they do most of the work! I do wonder, though, are women being fast-tracked to bishophood? It doesn’t seem like two minutes since they could first become priests – but then I have no concept of time.
This reminded me of when a friend of mine went to a meeting at a church where they had a woman pastor. She adhered to the evangelical back-combed and airbrushed stereotype. Everything was great. Then the pastor took a mirror out of her handbag and re-applied her lipstick before getting up to speak in full view of the congregation. It kind of killed the moment…
But let’s face it, women, by and large have all the requisite gifts to be a good pastor, so why not? And many men are a bag of sh*te in that department but it doesn’t seem to stop them getting on…
Isn’t the head of the Church of England the Queen? (”No, it’s Jesus!” – i know).
How do some then turn around and have a problem with coming under female authority?
This whole thing about ‘leadership is male’ is preposterous and deeply, tragically sad. There’s my measured input.
oh, by the way, God’s not actually a man.
Andy T – I am a Catholic. When I pray I pray to God…hmmm must be doing it wrong…
Re people leaving the C of E – bring it on – between defecting Anglicans and immigrant Poles we actually have some priests! Alternatively, we could always ordain a few women…
Caz, yeah I reckon they are! although no more awesome than men ones… also v pleased that there are no ’special bisops’ or ‘male only non-geographic diocese’. People will just have to come around to the idea that men and women are equal.
caz… friends re-united with no horrible fee to pay! brilliant! no apologies necessary!
thanks andy t. good points well made.
carole… 2000 years… fast tracked?! take your point though. but it should have been like this from the outset, so i say, the faster the better. and btw… quite right… men are often a bag of ***** in this department. thanks for mentioning it!
Are we celebrating the fact that women and men now [ie by 2014] will have the same consideration for bishop or are we celebrating that some folks views are, hmm, less equal than others?
Comment by Free to think, free to believe... — July 8, 2008 @ 2:40 pm
I think the biggest issue in leadership is not gender. I generally think that most people who want to be in a senior position of power (in government, in the church, whatever) shouldn’t be allowed to! My fear is that the women who become bishops will be just as bad at it as many male bishops are, because of the way they are selected (i.e. it’s all about who you know). Whilst I am in favour of women in the priesthood/bishopric, I doubt it will make much difference to the way the church runs.
Here as in HERE. your take of ‘keep up to speed with things but only comment when moved to’ is my approach to. Except in the case of “friends re-united with no horrible fee to pay” of course. ;0)
Again, I really can’t see the problem with this. Surely different ministers/priests/bishops etc bring different skills/gifts/personalities with them anyway; most (like the rest of us!) are good at some things and c**p at others. Why does the fact that some – eg the Anglicans – might spend more time in dresses than others make any difference? Surely in the Kingdom of God there should be room for everyone?
Caroline Too (2): I always like the quote ascribed to Mike Yaconelli – “You shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall …. make you Odd.”
It must be because I’m from The Salvation Army but I’ve never considered female ministers/leaders as anything unusual since we have had them since we formed (give or take a bit).
The CofE isn’t a democracy. Synod isn’t a democracy. But then neither is the USA. What’s your point?
Can we all hold our horses a minute though. The vote was that they don’t want to fudge it. They voted for Female Bish Bash Bosh 100% with a substantial majority.
Jon – but it should have been like this from the outset,
It was, it just got confused in the middle. You have already mentioned Prisca so there’s no point going on with more examples. As with the whole celibacy thing, it is a later addition.
What annoys me is the way the Anglican church gets beaten with a stick when it is the only church prepared to have the difficult discussions (sex gender or whatever). Many churches are just prepared to say “No Nay Never No More”.
Hi Robb, I suppose I’m an idealist I want equality for all (I know thats not going to happen this side of Revelations! But there is never any harm in trying), my point came out of experience, I have a few friends in Churches (one of which I once belong to) that believe that Church isn’t a Democracy and more to the point shouldn’t be e.g. the leaders were place their by God so what they says goes! I’ve seen a lot of hurt people because of this. We should be allowed to question the decisions of a Church and be allowed a hearing without judgment of our views right or wrong. That’s what is great about this blog it is prepared to discuss the hard issues and not judge each other for conflicting view points.
But then is Democracy right for the Church can’t say I’m 100% sure God’s kingdom is about his judgment not ours. The only thing I think I have seen anywhere near kingdom living is the teachings of Trotsky but that’s Christian living without God.
Robb I whole heartily agree with
“”What annoys me is the way the Anglican church gets beaten with a stick when it is the only church prepared to have the difficult discussions (sex gender or whatever). Many churches are just prepared to say “No Nay Never No More””
Sorry, I read your comment the opposite way around to how you intended it. I think that democracy is the only truly fair system and it is the system by which the church should be run. Ideally we do theology corporatly. That is why I can’t stand sectarianism – and we must be catholic. I think that it is through the body of Christ that God works. I guess this is the problem I have with the tattood and charismatic fellow we keep mentioning. His [earthly] authority seems to be him rather than us.
Having said all of that, I have never encountered any true form of democracy. I hear the term bandied about by politicians but I don’t think I’ve ever seen it. Not in politics, not in the church. The most wayward control freakery I have seen was inflicted upon the many by the few in a church with a congregationalist ecclesiology. [I feel a very USA based statement bursting forth from within me and I don't seem able to stop it - imagine it has a yorkshire accent anyway] Go figure
Andy t (25) don’t worry about it, mate – I entirely understand where you were coming from, sadly that is the way lots of us put ourselves across…
I think Jesus’ mum is a super and very special lady (I think he does, too) … she just ain’t God.
Dr Ruth @ 27 – I am inclined to agree with you. In fact, by way of balancing out the harsh comments I made about men earlier, I would say that, though the women bosses I have worked for have been great (as have my men bosses – lucky me!) there are some very ambitious and well-scary women I have encountered who verge on the evil … how does the ego/ambition quotient fit in with a clergy ‘career’?
8. Jon – Let us not forget Esther – I mean she gets a Jewish holiday and all. And who did Jesus first appear to – Mary and Mary Magdalene.
It’s hard for contemporary Christians to imagine living in an community where women were treated as equals during a time when women were viewed as chattel. Trace the role of women in the early church and it rocked – Constantine made it the “official religion” – that’s when you saw women take a back seat and Mary Magdalene’s role changed from Jesus’ right hand woman to whore. When I was in Ireland I fell in love with St. Brigid – amazing what she was able to accomplish in God’s name.
Carole – there are two women I know who could quite likely one day possibly make it to Bish bash bosh. One is the nicest woman you could ever hope to meet. The prospect of the other looking after the pastoral care of my cats scares the crap out of me. Sounds like your boss
I could say the same about some of the men I know though.
Just as an aside, it is interesting that the translations misrepresent Deborah, one of the Judges of Israel by referring to her as “wife of Lappidoth” when lappidoth is a feminine term meaning fire and the term translated to wife has a multitude of meanings, but most often just means “woman.” So Deborah is the “woman of fire” not the wife of lappidoth, why have the translators lessened her position as leader of Isreal by trying to tie her to a man instead of allowing her to stand on her own?
Romans 16 rattles off a list of chicks as well as dudes that are key early church leaders. What’s really rocking is that Paul places Prisca (Priscilla)’s name ahead of Aquila – letter writing etiquette would dictate that you’d put the person of greater importance first – so Paul is saying here rather explicitly that Prisca had a greater role than her husband.
In fact, Romans 16 is the text I use to prove that the churches Paul planted were very egalitarian – hence dictates like women should be silent with their heads covered need to be examined in light of 1st century Greco-Roman culture. Simply put, having a group of women engaged in public displays of spiritual ecstasy with their heads exposed was breaking social taboos that could result in getting the gathering hauled off and probably killed.
wow, great stuff – “It’s hard for contemporary Christians to imagine living in an community where women were treated as equals during a time when women were viewed as chattel. Trace the role of women in the early church and it rocked”
am just wondering if i can introduce another issue regarding mixed power structures into this discussion on equality, lets see what you think – here goes:-
Does going to church impact on your mental health? and could women bishops change the church forever?
i have a strong belief that God wants to nurture us through church, to give us a place where we feel accepted, loved, understood and appreciated, i know it’s not always quite this good, but lets work towards it!
this harmonising factor came back to my attention when i had to study abuse at college recently, (though sadly i do know of churches where a woman’s stories of the domestic violence she was suffering where ignored, while her husband was welcomed into the leadership.) so what’s new? what i came across at college for the first time were concepts of social patterns of abuse, in particular in incidents effecting young men. it seemed abuse towards young men is a learned social group prob. where as women victims were targeted individually, men were ‘educated’ into a hierarchical or hegemonic group culture. (i only did enough of this study to pass the course)
since learning that this is a possibility, stuff that i’d just passed off as ‘male behaviour’ has attracted more of my attention, – why are men sometimes depressed after a night out with the lads?
group culture is often competitive, terms of abuse can circulate without challenge, corrupting and explicit material is shared and sought out for a chance to belong or hold status in the group, demands for allegiance are made (explicitly and implicitly). the more vulnerable we are, the harder it seems for us to stand our ground and maintain our individuality from the group. i guess it is possible that this kind of social behaviour seriously damages our mental health.
both men and women are capable of destructive and cruel behaviour, and yet i do wonder if this is increased by segregation? are mixed social events less extreme?
i’m not totally convinced that male and female social behaviour is so different – as these college studies tried to imply, yet i do want to work towards making sure any group i belong to is accepting, welcoming and fun to be with, and i do think the health of the group can at times contribute to our individual mental health.
- does anyone else know more about ‘hegemonic behaviour’, or have experiences of belonging to groups that proved either good or bad? and would women bishops make a difference to this kind of social structure?
Subo, I think you’ve raised loads of really interesting points here. As for the question of whether women bishops could change the face of the church, well I looking at businesses where women have taken up leadership roles, women have made little difference to the overall practice. If we look at the impact Margaret Thatcher had – well, she had an enormous impact, we still have the scars of that today!
why are men sometimes depressed after a night out with the lads?
I know my limits and try to stick to them but if I exceed them I get depressed and feel very low in self-esteem. The physiological effects of alcohol can’t be ruled out – it is a depressive.
In a former place of work, there was a group of women who were all great on their own, but get them into a group, they were awful. Such was the effect that their bitchiness had on the staff room, people tried to avoid going in there, myself included. It did have an obvious leader and the others all kowtowed to her. They were so bad, they were ‘humourously’ referred to in someone’s leaving speech as the witches’ coven (whether a male group would be so openly lampooned is a moot point). Whilst we may have to encounter unpleasant people in our day to day lives, indeed some may argue we are called to engage with ‘difficult’ people, I have learned that I need my personal relationships to be edifying. Life is too short to spend all your time on relationships which do not nourish the spirit in some way.
I don’t suppose the gender of a bishop matters so much as their capacity to truly model the love of Christ.
“This whole thing about ‘leadership is male’ is preposterous and deeply, tragically sad. There’s my measured input.
oh, by the way, God’s not actually a man.”
I guess it’s never important that God chose to be revealed as “the Father.”
Or perhaps it’s all about symbolism and such things.
God chose to revealed as ‘I am’ and there are a few examples in the Bible when feminine images are used to describe God. Men and women too are made in God’s image, so I’d suggest that God is neither man nor woman, but has aspects that we might put into a ‘male’ box, as well as aspects we’d put into a ‘female’ box.
Is “I guess it’s never important that God chose to be revealed as ‘Father’” sarcasm? Because actually I do believe it to be all about symbolism and such things.
There are many ways of referring to and understanding God in scripture. To pick 3:
Rock (Deut 32.4)
Hen (Matt 23.37)
Father (Matt 6.9)
Rock (gender neutral) – We need to interpret what is intended to be said about God in this. Is God hard, cold and prone to erosion over time? No, it’s not in those ways that God is a rock.
Hen (female) – Same again; God lays eggs, is feathery and has unsightly, red, dangly bits hanging from his chin?
Father (male) – Right, what is intended to be communicated here, since God did not have sex with our mothers, and i don’t phone him for advise about my car?
All these things are used to say something about God’s nature without laying claim to them completely being the actuality of God.
Besides, if we’re made in the image of God, and God is male, what of women? Finally, if you’re going to assign God a gender, you also need to assign other similar characteristics such as ethnicity.
Bottom line – these things are metaphors which we use to speak of the reality of God, they themselves are not the reality of God.
Been out for a few days – loved the whole gay/pink thing yesterday. – loving it anyway so bring it on.
I was just explaining to one of the Young people here what the debate today was on and she looked incredulous that there was any debate!
Its simply obvious, in the CofE (which is what we is in) for years the men have been proud of their dresses and scared of sharing them with the girls! Now the girls get to wear the really posh ones as well – I am sure that they will look much better in them, and hope that they are tailored to be ‘girly’ as well.
47. My experience mirrors Carole’s – I have a few women writers as mentors but males comprise the bulk of my professional support system. I am just coming out of a scenario in which a male tried to get me included in a religious conference but was shot down by his female co-director – almost all the men who were invited to speak were nationally known speakers/authors/pastors but with one exception (and she ended up canceling), the women speakers were unknown players – of course the female co-director gave herself a primo speaking gig. Now some of this is my own doing – I am a freethinker and hence, I don’t toe the feminist line — so that pretty much excludes me from the womyn’s circle crowd. So, no I don’t think appointing women bishops will solve the US Episcopal church crisis but it is a giant step forward in having the church mirror the kingdom of God.
52. Vestments seem to be designed to conceal one’s sexuality period.
55. Rob – I was noting that your comment applies to both male and female clergy – donning a flea collar and an ill-fitting shirt isn’t sexy period – I’ve heard complaints from single women clergy that guys no longer see them as women so trying to date is durn near impossible.
(Yes some women are attracted to male clergy but my take is that’s based not on the men looking sexy up there doing their God biz but rather that the male priest treats them with kindness and compassion which is lacking in their interactions with other men – I’ve commented elsewhere on how much church biz gets done because lonely women are having their emotional needs met by interacting with the sweet vicar on doing the Lord’s work. where this becomes dicey is when the vicar isn’t aware of this dynamic.)
Nowt to do with looking sexy, that is an impossibility in any vestments. However, having something that fits is important. Most companies that make vestments don’t cater for women at all (for example hays and finch) because they are aiming at the Roman Catholic market (as it’s bigger). I don’t think even this would make a cassock look sexy.
LOL – actually here in the states there are places where you can buy chick cassocks and other gear tailored for a woman’s bod – unsexy as hell but they do fit.
love these last two cartoons and postings- why is the church mocked at, not taken seriously? because it is still fighting over issues like these last 2 postings!
Rob – link worked for me – The Episcopalians have been ordaining women over here for around 30 years now – so it stands to reason that the US clergy gear would be a bit more stylish here – but you’re right, we do have some truly god-awful styles. One of my favorite fashion faux pas is the lily white Anglican clergy person who wants to go “ethnic” to show their solidarity with some African, Central American or South American group – I’m not talking the handmade stoles from different countries that I think can be quite beautiful but really Anglo priests in say Dashikis or some tribal headgear. (You can see the people from these native lands where these items are worn rolling their eyes or getting the giggles – though they will behave if said priest heads a group that will give them money).
I think these garments are beautiful but when you see lily white dudes wearing these outfits and then trying to act “ghetto,” they look absolutely ridiculous.
Robb, the link from cassocks to cucumbers was tenuous at best. You did, however, hit on one of my favourite film clips of all time – I think of it every time I have to go through airport security! My other fave bit from that film is the wonderful moment of creativity in the motorway caff and the resultant stage set – priceless!
I remember going to a meeting at our priest’s house and spotted some vestments hanging up in the hall. I had this strange compulsion to try his chasuble for size (ooh er!). I valiantly resisted the temptation. I actually love vestments – they add a touch of colour to what can be rather dreary proceedings (no offence, Lord!) Except for ordinary time which is a bit…ordinary. In the meantime you may like to try this little bit of absurdity for size:
yuk, i loath that blending concept – it’s just so smug. a little prayer from another faith quietly tucked into the liturgy, so only those who know know, a garment worn as an identification with another community – except that it’s not, we remain safely wrapped in our own middleclassness.
this stuffs so damaging when we need dialogue not imposed blending
Jon – What I’m referencing are middle class white folks who try to show solidarity with an oppressed culture by adopting their clothing, mannerisms, music, food, etc. When I was in the Middle East, I met Americans living over there who had adopted wearing certain headgear and clothing out of respect as well as comfort for living in the climate – their appropriation of certain aspects of the Middle Eastern culture seemed more natural than say my experiences with a white dude dressed in African gear who was doing a hip-hop mass.
BTW- there’s plenty of fair trade clothing for sale that one can wear if one wants to go off the Nike route without co-opting someone else’s culture.
I love John Stott’s response when someone asked his position on male/female leadership:
“A Team” (not the A-Team, although wouldn’t a church led by them be amusing!). Because lets face it, men and women are different and men are (sometimes) good at somethings women aren’t and vice-versa. Teams are always the way forward…
I work for a fair trade clothing company called Fair Indigo. We offer men’s women’s and baby apparel. We also have some organics. You can check out our website at http://www.fairindigo.com. Let us know what you think of the line, our mission, or you have any questions.
i guess one of the big things to be questioning when it is looked at like this is the one church bit. When this creed is read out do sub clauses have to be added. One holy and catholic church unless a)……. b)……. c) etc.
I’m not poking fun but it shows how things like this can bring real division where there should be real oneness. It’s sad.
Comment by Will — July 8, 2008 @ 12:23 pm
I guess that the problems start when you shift from
the truth shall set you free
to
the (our) truth is the rulebook
… sigh
Comment by Caroline Too — July 8, 2008 @ 12:54 pm
makes you wonder what ‘unity’ was built on in the first place perhaps.
Comment by jonbirch — July 8, 2008 @ 12:57 pm
Hmmmm, tasty fudge. Hurray for the C.of E. sweetshop.
Comment by Timbo — July 8, 2008 @ 12:57 pm
Thanks for this, Jon.
This is another subject that gets people hot under the collar eh?
We had an amazing female minister at our church for 20 years. (Not quite the same I know) but she has told us many unpleasant stories in the past. For example the time she was at a convention and all the pastors were asked to go forward for prayer and blessings. I think she was the only female that went forward and she was *totally* ignored. Terrible!
I just don’t understand what the problem is.
Times have changed from when the bible was written.
Comment by Caz — July 8, 2008 @ 1:06 pm
And even when the bible was written there were some notable instances of women being chosen by God for important leadership roles.
Comment by Sophie — July 8, 2008 @ 1:09 pm
“And even when the bible was written there were some notable instances of women being chosen by God for important leadership roles.”
Like, who? Uh, while you’re at that, define what you meant by “leadership.” Thanks.
Comment by zefi — July 8, 2008 @ 1:19 pm
zefi…
OT: Miriam, Deborah, Huldah
NT: Junia, Phoebe, Priscilla
+ many unnamed and probarbly some i’ve missed.
“leadership” a position of responsibility. anything from deacon to bishop.
Comment by jonbirch — July 8, 2008 @ 1:31 pm
caz… yeh the war between the sexes rages on. boo!
no doubt many will throw their toys out of the pram over this too. 
Comment by jonbirch — July 8, 2008 @ 1:35 pm
will, caroline too, sophie… you’re all right.
Comment by jonbirch — July 8, 2008 @ 1:37 pm
I feel like I’m in ‘The Life of Brian’.
I have the right to be a Bishop…. I can’t be a Bishop, but I do have the right to be one….
Comment by amywatson — July 8, 2008 @ 1:44 pm
The man over the women gosh what an un holy thought….. must go wife just called have to put out the washing and pick the kids up before she come home from work.
I vote for the one in pink…
But should we be voting at all? is Church a democracy? If not then who make the decisions and who gives them the authority to make the decisions…off the point slightly
From a personnel point of view I think its great to have both male and female Pastor, Vicar’s, Bishops etc generally a female has a more nurturing and caring side to your average male ideal for Church leadership. I can’t see anywhere in the Bible that counters this either, thou I sure some one will put me right….
On the equality point Wikip’ says
1. (uncountable) The fact of being equal.
2. (uncountable) (mathematics) The fact of being equal, of having the same value.
3. (uncountable) The equal treatment of people irrespective of social or cultural differences.
If we are all equal before God then we must be equal before one another so should we place anyone before others because of sex, gender, race or birth? Should not all thing be on merit, experience or selection from peers?
On the flip side there were a lot of men AND women who left the CofE the first time this issue was raised about Vicar’s. A lot of them went off and joined the Catholic Church because they shared the same values. ( a point I have always found amusing is that it is slightly odd the way the Catholic church is seen as a male leadership domain when they spend so much time praying to the Virgin Mary, I am sure somone will put me right on this point as well)
Re what is Leadership love this Quotation
Leadership means that a group, large or small, is willing to entrust authority to a person who has shown judgement, wisdom, personal appeal, and proven competence – Walt Disney
btw Jon love the curves on the New Bishop much more attractive than the spiky mans ropes
Comment by andy t — July 8, 2008 @ 1:47 pm
I don’t know a great deal about this from personal experience since we are well back in the dark ages in our church. You wouldn’t think that they do most of the work! I do wonder, though, are women being fast-tracked to bishophood? It doesn’t seem like two minutes since they could first become priests – but then I have no concept of time.
This reminded me of when a friend of mine went to a meeting at a church where they had a woman pastor. She adhered to the evangelical back-combed and airbrushed stereotype. Everything was great. Then the pastor took a mirror out of her handbag and re-applied her lipstick before getting up to speak in full view of the congregation. It kind of killed the moment…
But let’s face it, women, by and large have all the requisite gifts to be a good pastor, so why not? And many men are a bag of sh*te in that department but it doesn’t seem to stop them getting on…
Comment by Carole — July 8, 2008 @ 1:51 pm
“leadership” a position of responsibility. anything from deacon to bishop.
I think you meant “an official position of responsibility.”
I guess everyone has the right to be recognized publicly.
Comment by zefi — July 8, 2008 @ 1:52 pm
Isn’t the head of the Church of England the Queen? (”No, it’s Jesus!” – i know).
How do some then turn around and have a problem with coming under female authority?
This whole thing about ‘leadership is male’ is preposterous and deeply, tragically sad. There’s my measured input.
oh, by the way, God’s not actually a man.
Comment by andy amoss — July 8, 2008 @ 1:59 pm
Andy T – I am a Catholic. When I pray I pray to God…hmmm must be doing it wrong…
Re people leaving the C of E – bring it on – between defecting Anglicans and immigrant Poles we actually have some priests! Alternatively, we could always ordain a few women…
Comment by Carole — July 8, 2008 @ 2:00 pm
Ha ha Andy, love it, have to agree that God is not a man (oh, except for Jesus obv, who was a man)
Comment by Sophie — July 8, 2008 @ 2:01 pm
Hello Andy Amoss!
It’s Caroline here…. ex Bretton student and ex housemate of Jo (of & Craig fame).
Small world!!!!
(And very off topic, sorry Jon!)
Comment by Caz — July 8, 2008 @ 2:02 pm
small indeed, and still off topic!! Hi, you around here much?
Comment by andy amoss — July 8, 2008 @ 2:05 pm
Here as in HERE or as in Wakefield?
Pretty much no to both actually!
I look at this blog most days but rarely comment unless I feel particularly inclined!
And every now and again the land of Wakefield beckons me for beer
Anyway, back to women bishops….
They’re awesome!!! Yay!
Comment by Caz — July 8, 2008 @ 2:09 pm
Caz, yeah I reckon they are! although no more awesome than men ones… also v pleased that there are no ’special bisops’ or ‘male only non-geographic diocese’. People will just have to come around to the idea that men and women are equal.
Comment by Sophie — July 8, 2008 @ 2:15 pm
caz… friends re-united with no horrible fee to pay! brilliant! no apologies necessary!
thanks andy t. good points well made.
carole… 2000 years… fast tracked?!
take your point though. but it should have been like this from the outset, so i say, the faster the better. 
and btw… quite right… men are often a bag of ***** in this department. thanks for mentioning it! 
Comment by jonbirch — July 8, 2008 @ 2:18 pm
sophie… indeed they will.
Comment by jonbirch — July 8, 2008 @ 2:19 pm
hoorah!
Comment by Sophie — July 8, 2008 @ 2:23 pm
Carole 16 I stand corrected
Comment by andy t — July 8, 2008 @ 2:39 pm
Equality – now there’s a loaded term.
Are we celebrating the fact that women and men now [ie by 2014] will have the same consideration for bishop or are we celebrating that some folks views are, hmm, less equal than others?
Comment by Free to think, free to believe... — July 8, 2008 @ 2:40 pm
I think the biggest issue in leadership is not gender. I generally think that most people who want to be in a senior position of power (in government, in the church, whatever) shouldn’t be allowed to! My fear is that the women who become bishops will be just as bad at it as many male bishops are, because of the way they are selected (i.e. it’s all about who you know). Whilst I am in favour of women in the priesthood/bishopric, I doubt it will make much difference to the way the church runs.
Comment by doctor ruth — July 8, 2008 @ 2:43 pm
Here as in HERE. your take of ‘keep up to speed with things but only comment when moved to’ is my approach to. Except in the case of “friends re-united with no horrible fee to pay” of course. ;0)
Comment by andy amoss — July 8, 2008 @ 2:48 pm
Again, I really can’t see the problem with this. Surely different ministers/priests/bishops etc bring different skills/gifts/personalities with them anyway; most (like the rest of us!) are good at some things and c**p at others. Why does the fact that some – eg the Anglicans
– might spend more time in dresses than others make any difference? Surely in the Kingdom of God there should be room for everyone?
Caroline Too (2): I always like the quote ascribed to Mike Yaconelli – “You shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall …. make you Odd.”
Comment by janetp — July 8, 2008 @ 2:49 pm
Dr Ruth: We cross-posted. Spot-on comments. What a horrible thought!
Comment by janetp — July 8, 2008 @ 2:51 pm
Yes it is a bit depressing isn’t it? Note to self: must be more optimistic.
Comment by doctor ruth — July 8, 2008 @ 2:58 pm
It must be because I’m from The Salvation Army but I’ve never considered female ministers/leaders as anything unusual since we have had them since we formed (give or take a bit).
Comment by Lurch Kimded — July 8, 2008 @ 3:03 pm
Andy T – is Church a democracy?
The CofE isn’t a democracy. Synod isn’t a democracy. But then neither is the USA. What’s your point?
Can we all hold our horses a minute though. The vote was that they don’t want to fudge it. They voted for Female Bish Bash Bosh 100% with a substantial majority.
Jon – but it should have been like this from the outset,
It was, it just got confused in the middle. You have already mentioned Prisca so there’s no point going on with more examples. As with the whole celibacy thing, it is a later addition.
What annoys me is the way the Anglican church gets beaten with a stick when it is the only church prepared to have the difficult discussions (sex gender or whatever). Many churches are just prepared to say “No Nay Never No More”.
Comment by Robb — July 8, 2008 @ 3:20 pm
pleased to meet you + Sharon, please help us make sense of all this nonsense. I am with you all the way.
Comment by dennis — July 8, 2008 @ 3:47 pm
Hi Robb, I suppose I’m an idealist I want equality for all (I know thats not going to happen this side of Revelations! But there is never any harm in trying), my point came out of experience, I have a few friends in Churches (one of which I once belong to) that believe that Church isn’t a Democracy and more to the point shouldn’t be e.g. the leaders were place their by God so what they says goes! I’ve seen a lot of hurt people because of this. We should be allowed to question the decisions of a Church and be allowed a hearing without judgment of our views right or wrong. That’s what is great about this blog it is prepared to discuss the hard issues and not judge each other for conflicting view points.
But then is Democracy right for the Church can’t say I’m 100% sure God’s kingdom is about his judgment not ours. The only thing I think I have seen anywhere near kingdom living is the teachings of Trotsky but that’s Christian living without God.
Comment by andy t — July 8, 2008 @ 4:09 pm
Robb I whole heartily agree with
“”What annoys me is the way the Anglican church gets beaten with a stick when it is the only church prepared to have the difficult discussions (sex gender or whatever). Many churches are just prepared to say “No Nay Never No More””
Comment by andy t — July 8, 2008 @ 4:12 pm
Sorry, I read your comment the opposite way around to how you intended it. I think that democracy is the only truly fair system and it is the system by which the church should be run. Ideally we do theology corporatly. That is why I can’t stand sectarianism – and we must be catholic. I think that it is through the body of Christ that God works. I guess this is the problem I have with the tattood and charismatic fellow we keep mentioning. His [earthly] authority seems to be him rather than us.
Having said all of that, I have never encountered any true form of democracy. I hear the term bandied about by politicians but I don’t think I’ve ever seen it. Not in politics, not in the church. The most wayward control freakery I have seen was inflicted upon the many by the few in a church with a congregationalist ecclesiology. [I feel a very USA based statement bursting forth from within me and I don't seem able to stop it - imagine it has a yorkshire accent anyway] Go figure
Comment by Robb — July 8, 2008 @ 4:50 pm
Andy t (25) don’t worry about it, mate – I entirely understand where you were coming from, sadly that is the way lots of us put ourselves across…
I think Jesus’ mum is a super and very special lady (I think he does, too) … she just ain’t God.
Comment by Carole — July 8, 2008 @ 5:19 pm
Dr Ruth @ 27 – I am inclined to agree with you. In fact, by way of balancing out the harsh comments I made about men earlier, I would say that, though the women bosses I have worked for have been great (as have my men bosses – lucky me!) there are some very ambitious and well-scary women I have encountered who verge on the evil … how does the ego/ambition quotient fit in with a clergy ‘career’?
Comment by Carole — July 8, 2008 @ 5:27 pm
8. Jon – Let us not forget Esther – I mean she gets a Jewish holiday and all. And who did Jesus first appear to – Mary and Mary Magdalene.
It’s hard for contemporary Christians to imagine living in an community where women were treated as equals during a time when women were viewed as chattel. Trace the role of women in the early church and it rocked – Constantine made it the “official religion” – that’s when you saw women take a back seat and Mary Magdalene’s role changed from Jesus’ right hand woman to whore. When I was in Ireland I fell in love with St. Brigid – amazing what she was able to accomplish in God’s name.
Comment by becky — July 8, 2008 @ 5:28 pm
And Judith (Holofernes’ nemesis).
Comment by sarah — July 8, 2008 @ 5:40 pm
Carole – there are two women I know who could quite likely one day possibly make it to Bish bash bosh. One is the nicest woman you could ever hope to meet. The prospect of the other looking after the pastoral care of my cats scares the crap out of me. Sounds like your boss
I could say the same about some of the men I know though.
Comment by Robb — July 8, 2008 @ 7:09 pm
Just as an aside, it is interesting that the translations misrepresent Deborah, one of the Judges of Israel by referring to her as “wife of Lappidoth” when lappidoth is a feminine term meaning fire and the term translated to wife has a multitude of meanings, but most often just means “woman.” So Deborah is the “woman of fire” not the wife of lappidoth, why have the translators lessened her position as leader of Isreal by trying to tie her to a man instead of allowing her to stand on her own?
Deborah rocks!
Comment by Tyler Dawn — July 8, 2008 @ 11:47 pm
7 & 8 – if I remember correctly Romans 16 mentioned quite a few? Or was it just Priscilla and Junia in it.
Comment by Mimou — July 9, 2008 @ 12:55 am
Romans 16 rattles off a list of chicks as well as dudes that are key early church leaders. What’s really rocking is that Paul places Prisca (Priscilla)’s name ahead of Aquila – letter writing etiquette would dictate that you’d put the person of greater importance first – so Paul is saying here rather explicitly that Prisca had a greater role than her husband.
In fact, Romans 16 is the text I use to prove that the churches Paul planted were very egalitarian – hence dictates like women should be silent with their heads covered need to be examined in light of 1st century Greco-Roman culture. Simply put, having a group of women engaged in public displays of spiritual ecstasy with their heads exposed was breaking social taboos that could result in getting the gathering hauled off and probably killed.
Comment by becky — July 9, 2008 @ 3:55 am
wow, great stuff – “It’s hard for contemporary Christians to imagine living in an community where women were treated as equals during a time when women were viewed as chattel. Trace the role of women in the early church and it rocked”
am just wondering if i can introduce another issue regarding mixed power structures into this discussion on equality, lets see what you think – here goes:-
Does going to church impact on your mental health? and could women bishops change the church forever?
i have a strong belief that God wants to nurture us through church, to give us a place where we feel accepted, loved, understood and appreciated, i know it’s not always quite this good, but lets work towards it!
this harmonising factor came back to my attention when i had to study abuse at college recently, (though sadly i do know of churches where a woman’s stories of the domestic violence she was suffering where ignored, while her husband was welcomed into the leadership.) so what’s new? what i came across at college for the first time were concepts of social patterns of abuse, in particular in incidents effecting young men. it seemed abuse towards young men is a learned social group prob. where as women victims were targeted individually, men were ‘educated’ into a hierarchical or hegemonic group culture. (i only did enough of this study to pass the course)
since learning that this is a possibility, stuff that i’d just passed off as ‘male behaviour’ has attracted more of my attention, – why are men sometimes depressed after a night out with the lads?
group culture is often competitive, terms of abuse can circulate without challenge, corrupting and explicit material is shared and sought out for a chance to belong or hold status in the group, demands for allegiance are made (explicitly and implicitly). the more vulnerable we are, the harder it seems for us to stand our ground and maintain our individuality from the group. i guess it is possible that this kind of social behaviour seriously damages our mental health.
both men and women are capable of destructive and cruel behaviour, and yet i do wonder if this is increased by segregation? are mixed social events less extreme?
i’m not totally convinced that male and female social behaviour is so different – as these college studies tried to imply, yet i do want to work towards making sure any group i belong to is accepting, welcoming and fun to be with, and i do think the health of the group can at times contribute to our individual mental health.
- does anyone else know more about ‘hegemonic behaviour’, or have experiences of belonging to groups that proved either good or bad? and would women bishops make a difference to this kind of social structure?
Comment by subo — July 9, 2008 @ 7:28 am
Subo, I think you’ve raised loads of really interesting points here. As for the question of whether women bishops could change the face of the church, well I looking at businesses where women have taken up leadership roles, women have made little difference to the overall practice. If we look at the impact Margaret Thatcher had – well, she had an enormous impact, we still have the scars of that today!
why are men sometimes depressed after a night out with the lads?
I know my limits and try to stick to them but if I exceed them I get depressed and feel very low in self-esteem. The physiological effects of alcohol can’t be ruled out – it is a depressive.
In a former place of work, there was a group of women who were all great on their own, but get them into a group, they were awful. Such was the effect that their bitchiness had on the staff room, people tried to avoid going in there, myself included. It did have an obvious leader and the others all kowtowed to her. They were so bad, they were ‘humourously’ referred to in someone’s leaving speech as the witches’ coven (whether a male group would be so openly lampooned is a moot point). Whilst we may have to encounter unpleasant people in our day to day lives, indeed some may argue we are called to engage with ‘difficult’ people, I have learned that I need my personal relationships to be edifying. Life is too short to spend all your time on relationships which do not nourish the spirit in some way.
I don’t suppose the gender of a bishop matters so much as their capacity to truly model the love of Christ.
Comment by Carole — July 9, 2008 @ 8:32 am
“This whole thing about ‘leadership is male’ is preposterous and deeply, tragically sad. There’s my measured input.
oh, by the way, God’s not actually a man.”
I guess it’s never important that God chose to be revealed as “the Father.”
Or perhaps it’s all about symbolism and such things.
*Shrugs*
Comment by zefi — July 9, 2008 @ 10:32 am
God chose to revealed as ‘I am’ and there are a few examples in the Bible when feminine images are used to describe God. Men and women too are made in God’s image, so I’d suggest that God is neither man nor woman, but has aspects that we might put into a ‘male’ box, as well as aspects we’d put into a ‘female’ box.
Comment by Sophie — July 9, 2008 @ 10:59 am
Hey Zefi,
Is “I guess it’s never important that God chose to be revealed as ‘Father’” sarcasm? Because actually I do believe it to be all about symbolism and such things.
There are many ways of referring to and understanding God in scripture. To pick 3:
Rock (Deut 32.4)
Hen (Matt 23.37)
Father (Matt 6.9)
Rock (gender neutral) – We need to interpret what is intended to be said about God in this. Is God hard, cold and prone to erosion over time? No, it’s not in those ways that God is a rock.
Hen (female) – Same again; God lays eggs, is feathery and has unsightly, red, dangly bits hanging from his chin?
Father (male) – Right, what is intended to be communicated here, since God did not have sex with our mothers, and i don’t phone him for advise about my car?
All these things are used to say something about God’s nature without laying claim to them completely being the actuality of God.
Besides, if we’re made in the image of God, and God is male, what of women? Finally, if you’re going to assign God a gender, you also need to assign other similar characteristics such as ethnicity.
Bottom line – these things are metaphors which we use to speak of the reality of God, they themselves are not the reality of God.
andy.
Comment by andy amoss — July 9, 2008 @ 11:16 am
Been out for a few days – loved the whole gay/pink thing yesterday. – loving it anyway so bring it on.
I was just explaining to one of the Young people here what the debate today was on and she looked incredulous that there was any debate!
Its simply obvious, in the CofE (which is what we is in) for years the men have been proud of their dresses and scared of sharing them with the girls! Now the girls get to wear the really posh ones as well – I am sure that they will look much better in them, and hope that they are tailored to be ‘girly’ as well.
Anyway, ‘Woman Bishops?’ ‘Yeh, why not?’
Comment by drewman — July 9, 2008 @ 12:41 pm
That is the biggest complaint from the ladies…. vestments aren’t tailored well. Go to crossdesigns.
Comment by Robb — July 9, 2008 @ 12:46 pm
47. My experience mirrors Carole’s – I have a few women writers as mentors but males comprise the bulk of my professional support system. I am just coming out of a scenario in which a male tried to get me included in a religious conference but was shot down by his female co-director – almost all the men who were invited to speak were nationally known speakers/authors/pastors but with one exception (and she ended up canceling), the women speakers were unknown players – of course the female co-director gave herself a primo speaking gig. Now some of this is my own doing – I am a freethinker and hence, I don’t toe the feminist line — so that pretty much excludes me from the womyn’s circle crowd. So, no I don’t think appointing women bishops will solve the US Episcopal church crisis but it is a giant step forward in having the church mirror the kingdom of God.
52. Vestments seem to be designed to conceal one’s sexuality period.
Comment by becky — July 9, 2008 @ 2:00 pm
What did I say??!!?
Comment by Robb — July 9, 2008 @ 2:33 pm
when did you say it? Just try to remmeber when you said it last…..its proabbaly lying around there somewhere.
Comment by drewman — July 9, 2008 @ 2:48 pm
‘remember….probably’ — it’s been a long day!
Comment by drewman — July 9, 2008 @ 2:48 pm
55. Rob – I was noting that your comment applies to both male and female clergy – donning a flea collar and an ill-fitting shirt isn’t sexy period – I’ve heard complaints from single women clergy that guys no longer see them as women so trying to date is durn near impossible.
(Yes some women are attracted to male clergy but my take is that’s based not on the men looking sexy up there doing their God biz but rather that the male priest treats them with kindness and compassion which is lacking in their interactions with other men – I’ve commented elsewhere on how much church biz gets done because lonely women are having their emotional needs met by interacting with the sweet vicar on doing the Lord’s work. where this becomes dicey is when the vicar isn’t aware of this dynamic.)
Comment by becky — July 9, 2008 @ 2:56 pm
Nowt to do with looking sexy, that is an impossibility in any vestments. However, having something that fits is important. Most companies that make vestments don’t cater for women at all (for example hays and finch) because they are aiming at the Roman Catholic market (as it’s bigger). I don’t think even this would make a cassock look sexy.
Comment by Robb — July 9, 2008 @ 3:43 pm
My link has dissapeared
Try again
Comment by Robb — July 9, 2008 @ 3:45 pm
LOL – actually here in the states there are places where you can buy chick cassocks and other gear tailored for a woman’s bod – unsexy as hell but they do fit.
Thought you might get a kick out of this link – http://www.heavenlycomfort.com/
Comment by becky — July 9, 2008 @ 4:19 pm
becky, the poor model looks dead already! – Oh yay lets buy some leisure cassocks from him! – whoop whoop!
Comment by drewman — July 9, 2008 @ 5:38 pm
becky –
classic.
You seem to get the best and the worst of clerical wear over in the states!
Comment by Robb — July 9, 2008 @ 6:10 pm
My link yet again has gone awry. It should only be “the best”…
Comment by Robb — July 9, 2008 @ 6:10 pm
love these last two cartoons and postings- why is the church mocked at, not taken seriously? because it is still fighting over issues like these last 2 postings!
Comment by sonia — July 9, 2008 @ 6:15 pm
Rob – link worked for me – The Episcopalians have been ordaining women over here for around 30 years now – so it stands to reason that the US clergy gear would be a bit more stylish here – but you’re right, we do have some truly god-awful styles. One of my favorite fashion faux pas is the lily white Anglican clergy person who wants to go “ethnic” to show their solidarity with some African, Central American or South American group – I’m not talking the handmade stoles from different countries that I think can be quite beautiful but really Anglo priests in say Dashikis or some tribal headgear. (You can see the people from these native lands where these items are worn rolling their eyes or getting the giggles – though they will behave if said priest heads a group that will give them money).
Comment by becky — July 9, 2008 @ 6:25 pm
Sonia – yello! – particularly the gay thing. For God’s sake.
Comment by sarah — July 9, 2008 @ 8:08 pm
Becky, you have transcended into a realm I have no knowledge about. I spent a month working at Kampala Cathedral. What is a Dashiki?
Comment by Robb — July 9, 2008 @ 10:57 pm
Becky, you have transcended into a realm I have no knowledge about but not enough….
Comment by Robb — July 9, 2008 @ 11:12 pm
Oh I give up!! words escape me!!
Comment by Robb — July 9, 2008 @ 11:12 pm
What I said the first time!
Comment by Robb — July 9, 2008 @ 11:13 pm
haha! becky… i think robb is trying to ask you what a dashiki is?
i’d like to know too.
Comment by jonbirch — July 10, 2008 @ 12:21 am
I am not an expert on African clothing but this entry from wikipedia on Dashikis looks pretty accurate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dashiki
I think these garments are beautiful but when you see lily white dudes wearing these outfits and then trying to act “ghetto,” they look absolutely ridiculous.
Comment by becky — July 10, 2008 @ 1:12 am
Robb, the link from cassocks to cucumbers was tenuous at best. You did, however, hit on one of my favourite film clips of all time – I think of it every time I have to go through airport security! My other fave bit from that film is the wonderful moment of creativity in the motorway caff and the resultant stage set – priceless!
I remember going to a meeting at our priest’s house and spotted some vestments hanging up in the hall. I had this strange compulsion to try his chasuble for size (ooh er!). I valiantly resisted the temptation. I actually love vestments – they add a touch of colour to what can be rather dreary proceedings (no offence, Lord!) Except for ordinary time which is a bit…ordinary. In the meantime you may like to try this little bit of absurdity for size:
http://www.ukpriest.org/interact_fuzzy.htm
Comment by Carole — July 10, 2008 @ 8:04 am
tenuous? tenuous ??!!
I’ll have you know that that is a highly appropriate clip
Dashikis – the blokes in Uganda called them Kaftans. Mike Pilavachi tends to wear them…
Comment by Robb — July 10, 2008 @ 8:28 am
Some clergy can wear another culture’s tribal gear and it works on them – my experience is that most can’t.
Comment by becky — July 10, 2008 @ 2:27 pm
yuk, i loath that blending concept – it’s just so smug. a little prayer from another faith quietly tucked into the liturgy, so only those who know know, a garment worn as an identification with another community – except that it’s not, we remain safely wrapped in our own middleclassness.
this stuffs so damaging when we need dialogue not imposed blending
Comment by subo — July 10, 2008 @ 5:21 pm
aren’t we being just a tad harsh on those who enjoy wearing ethnic clothes? seems somehow better than making the rest of the world wear nike…
Comment by jonbirch — July 10, 2008 @ 5:38 pm
Jon – What I’m referencing are middle class white folks who try to show solidarity with an oppressed culture by adopting their clothing, mannerisms, music, food, etc. When I was in the Middle East, I met Americans living over there who had adopted wearing certain headgear and clothing out of respect as well as comfort for living in the climate – their appropriation of certain aspects of the Middle Eastern culture seemed more natural than say my experiences with a white dude dressed in African gear who was doing a hip-hop mass.
BTW- there’s plenty of fair trade clothing for sale that one can wear if one wants to go off the Nike route without co-opting someone else’s culture.
Becky G.
Comment by becky — July 10, 2008 @ 11:28 pm
I love John Stott’s response when someone asked his position on male/female leadership:
“A Team” (not the A-Team, although wouldn’t a church led by them be amusing!). Because lets face it, men and women are different and men are (sometimes) good at somethings women aren’t and vice-versa. Teams are always the way forward…
Comment by DrNick — July 11, 2008 @ 7:39 pm
quite right drnick. think i’ll have to do some A-team asbo’s.
becky… white dude doing hiphop mass… hmmmm.
Comment by jonbirch — July 11, 2008 @ 8:36 pm
Well if you can find them Jon, and no one else can help….
How bad will this be??
Comment by Robb — July 14, 2008 @ 11:35 am
I work for a fair trade clothing company called Fair Indigo. We offer men’s women’s and baby apparel. We also have some organics. You can check out our website at http://www.fairindigo.com. Let us know what you think of the line, our mission, or you have any questions.
Comment by Rachel — July 15, 2008 @ 1:27 am
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