For the most part, what I see are lonely women who are getting their emotional needs met in a “safe” way that keeps their marriage intact. Often the priest is married or closeted gay (or worse both) – so interacting with these women is a way for him to get his needs met without risking his job security.
In thinking back on the married priest I befriended post 9/11, there was some degree of fantasy on my end. While he focus of our work was building up this ministry he wanted to start (that has yet to really get off the ground), I bought into his schtick that his wife didn’t understand what he was going through, blah, blah, blah — same line I’m sure some horny college professors throw to their students. Fortunately I wised up before we actually started going out – I see now he was a middle age narcissist who has since found an assistant half his age who buys into his BS.
that is freaky, I worked for a parish years ago to work with families alongside the curate, nearly all the women we worked with behaved just like that- and he loved it, he was not oblivious but welcomed it- easy to laugh at now but was disturbing at the time:)
Dear Lord, where and who are the remnants that did not get brainwashed by this world? I mean the girls are ´crazy´ and the pastor is supposedly ´oblivious´.
I’ve done a lot of helping out at church in recent years. It was interesting to note the response when a new, very charismatic (with a small ‘c’) priest arrived. One particular woman went out of her way to relieve me of a large number of my tasks I had been doing for a long time. I felt quite hurt by what she did and the bullish way she went about it. I’m still praying my way through how I feel about her, to be brutally frank, she has done so many sly and insidious things to me over the years. But it was exactly the scenario that Becky describes. The priest wasn’t bothered, as long as someone did the work he didn’t care who it was. He is now in a different parish and she is shackled by commitments to our church but goes to see him whenever she can. She has even taken up writing poetry, because he writes poetry. Quite sad really…
But then, if someone sucks up to the priest and does a bit of work, too, at least it shows willing on their part. He was always surrounded by hoards of groupies who weren’t interested in contributing to the community effort, but just liked ‘hanging out’ with the priest. We are a funny species, aren’t we?
Haha very funny..I’ve not really met this though. If you don’t count teenage times and youth workers/pastors and teens.
Have met ppl volunteering to do things to gain acceptance, but I don’t think it had anything to do with anything romantic. (ohh and by the way not to me! Am not a pastor by profession )
Janetp, thanks, but it is really a daft relationship thing – not like anyone is seriously ill or anything. It wouldn’t bother me so much if I hadn’t made quite an effort to forge a positive relationship with her in the past. Never mind – you win some, you lose some!
i’ve watched people at a youth festival i was VJing at recently. There are one or two people that will always have their fans around them and will run and get a bottle of water for them at a drop of a hat. If one of us plebs is in need of a hand getting a table it can be hard to find anyone to help.
The two levels of being a servant. If you are beautiful, talented, up front, extrovert or even manipulative or get the help. If you are just getting on with things it’s hard.
thanks carol. Helping is great as long as people can see that you are doing it. And it’s easier to do when you get something back. Like the love from a lurvly Rev
11/12 – I find where you find hordes of gay and lesbian volunteers gather round the clergy aka the fawning faithful, it tends to be in settings where the clergy are openly gay – they are bonding over their shared sexuality and the fact they are also Christian seems to be secondary. As a straight chick, I find these settings very alienating as I can’t join their Christian clique cause I can’t change who I am.
18. You see the girly giggle groupies in spades at youth events – my hope and prayer is that those involved with teens and college kids are trained in how to handle transference – where it does amuck is when the religious leader is either unaware (or worse as you noted, seems to revel in the attention) of the psychological dynamics going on here.
Somehow we think that when we become adults, we’ll “grow up” but the older I get, the more I think “grownup” is a bogus term. We’re all vulnerable human beings – I tell my story to note how even a seasoned journalist with a social work/divinity degree got drawn into this scenario – and like an alcoholic in recovery, I am very acute to the signs when commandments might not be broken but the boundaries are blurry and definitely unhealthy.
But I don’t know what to do except pray when I see others acting out – I am pulling away from an email intervention I “tried” to have with a few male emergent church leaders who don’t get that they are seen as “religious rock stars” (I saw that a bit at Greenbelt but it’s much worse in the US). The women (and even some men) who flock to them and continue to send them emails, inappropriate facebook comments, etc. aren’t friends (How can you really be friends with someone you only met at say a conference esp. when that you’re meeting them in an artificial environment – yes, you can start a relationship that over time can grow.) I figured it was their career and their relationships with their spouses/girlfriends not mine. And besides, they are clearly getting “something” from these interactions or they would set some boundaries.
23. The dynamic John describes tends to happen among the female of the species when interacting with males. Is Rev Tina Observant is a lesbian, as noted, I have seen gays and lesbians gather around outed clergy. But there it’s more the development of yet another exclusionary church clique than the fawning faithful worshiping their leader not Christ.
Having said that, a good chunk of the emergent church rock groupies tend to be predominately male but there they are worshipping the male emergent rock star (there are no female counterparts) . You see them at select conferences gathering around their heroes in search of an “intellectual high.” They seem to be seeking some kind of a male bonding experience and are seemingly oblivious to the presence of chicks in the room. The other time I saw this dynamic in action was when I covered a major comic book convention – the men were so intent on meeting their heroes (e.g., Stan Lee) that they gave no notice to the scantily clad women dressed in very provocative gear as say Wonder Woman. Some of these rock stars also attract female groupies as well – so watching all this play out can be amusing albeit stomach churning. (Watch for this at Greenbelt – trust me it’s there but the amazing stuff far outweighs this minor unholy hooey – and then amp it up considerably and that’s the dynamic in the US.)
Somehow we think that when we become adults, we’ll “grow up” but the older I get, the more I think “grownup” is a bogus term. We’re all vulnerable human beings
This is so true, Becky. I seem to expend half my energy battling with my inner child!
I always wonder that about the disciple John. “The one Jesus loved” makes him sound a bit up himself and also as if he’s sticking the two fingers up to the others…”I was the one he loved, the others were just hangers-on” No doubt all you serious biblical scholars will set me right on that one
In 25 with Becky’s comments on boundaries, two thoughts:
thought 1a: wonder how many of the people who need to set boundaries simply do not know how to set boundaries.
thought 1b: where and how is how to set boundaries learned, and taught?
thought 2: sometime in the last 18 months was an article somewhere about youth today have very different attitudes toward boundaries than the over 40 crowd.
you can’t beet doing the clique sometimes, it’s a great way to get away from the bossy types.
sadly i’ve never met a vicar who i’d bother sucking up too, though it does get on my nerves when you get a leadership that assume we all agree with them about everything, or maybe haven’t got round to thinking yet
the worst though, is when the vicar sprinkles a little guilt on the proceedings, saying something like ‘we should all now repent for our lack of commitment …’ – repent yourself, i’ll wait on the compunction of the holy spirit – so far she’s not said anything about it
re: Jesus and the disciples -there was some definite jockeying for power – I do wonder how the other 10 disciples felt for instance when Peter and John came down with Jesus post-Transfiguration. I’d be bummed to have missed that moment. We’re human. What’s amazing and healing to me is how the love of Christ shines through the broken and very flawed bodies of his disciples and continues to shine today.
30.
1a-b. I grew up with no boundaries as my late parents were alcoholics – I learned through Adult Children of Alcoholics how to set my own boundaries. I also was part of an amazing Christian community in the 1980s that is no more but it was a lifesaver in helping me to heal – my late spiritual director became for many of us the mommy we never had – no clue where I’d be without that community that came along when I really needed it.
2. Every generation seems to have it’s own defining characteristics that set it apart from the previous generation – one thing that’s clear to me is that the nuclear family is no longer the norm – when my parents divorced in 1977, hardly anyone in my class was a product of divorce and no one dared admit their parents were alcoholics – far different scenario today. BTW-I recommend Phyllis Tickle’s book – “The Great Emergence” when it comes out this fall from Baker Books – she charts how we’re in the midst of another global reformation. I found her insights very helpful in mapping out the territory.
One aspect that complicates the boundary issue is that some emergent church leaders continue to insist this is just a conversation even though there’s a cottage industry developing around this phenomenon – Paraclete, Baker, Abingdon, Jossey-Bass have developed “emergent/emerging church” publishing lines replete with some of their authors positioning themselves as leaders on the Christian conference speaking circuit, planting churches, etc. It’s akin to the youth leader who insists he’s one of the kids when in fact he is at least a college graduate who has a paid job with the church. Hard to set boundaries when you don’t admit that like it or not, you’re seen as a religious leader.
Hmm maybe I’m a bit tired at the moment and brain not functioning properly (And also sometimes if you come from a different cultural setting/experiences it’s different for you)
..but what kind of boundaries are you talking about Becky? (with regard to that youth leader) And what boundaries (if you care to share) were you lacking bcos of your parents (a need to please? not knowing your own needs?) Just interested.
35. I suspect this is a cultural difference here – given how clueless I am at times in trying to explain Western cultural morays, I’m not sure how well I can translate this. But here goes a slight shot.
Here’s a URL you might find of interest that illuminates the difficulties those who grow up in alcoholic and abusive households can have in establishing healthy boundaries. (I talk about my personal history when asked but in this case the posting would be too far long and off topic.) http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/pdf/B22_11.pdf
In a nutshell, I’d describe a healthy boundary as the ability to maintain a healthy emotional and physical space between you and the other so that you do not become either too aloof and alone (hence the need for community) or too so intertwined with the other that you lose your own identity.Jon’s posting highlights the latter. As the American diplomat Henry Kissinger once said, “Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac.” Add to it the fact that the dude has a hotline to God and this is a recipe for hero worship if the priest isn’t secure in himself with enough self-awareness to handle what I term the giggle godly groupies.
Now add to this equation the fact that youth group leaders is that they are adults working with minors, and can get dicey as all get out.
36. Actually it’s quite common when one ‘s marriage is on the rocks to seek out others who will give them the emotional support they claim they aren’t getting at home – but as I have a social work degree, I knew he needed to get counseling so he could direct these emotional energies back into his marriage. As I gave him referrals for some post 9/11 family counseling so I “thought” he was trying to keep the marriage intact and that the problem was with his unsupportive spouse. So, I began to function as an emotional sounding board and that’s when our relationship took a toxic turn. I now realize she was getting rightfully PO’d as he was turning down paying work to pursue his dream of a nonprofit and as a result, the family got evicted from their apartment and she had to use foodbanks. om their apartment and she had to use foodbanks.
42. Jon has done the beat up clergy person bit to death – this is another side of the coin and while it’ s less common, these charismatic souls have an ability to attract fawning fans – and as examples such as the Nine O’Clock Service demonstrate, it’s a bloody disaster when the cult of personality runs roughshod over the gospel and no one wants to intervene because the ministry on the surface appears to be a bit hit. (I’ve only read a recommended book on this mess that I was told was an accurate account – sounds horrible.)
I make my comments as someone whose dad was an Episcopal priest/college professor – he was fawned over by the young adults (much to the neglect of his own family) and resented by those “adult” professor and clergy who felt he was being an immature twit. (In hindsight, the criticisms were spot on.)
hi becky @ 37. thanks for reply – I am western though!! =D (Finland is not THAT far)
Identity is something that interests me hugely. I do somewhat know of dependency and al-anon etc. but was interested to hear more spesifically. I think it’s more of a language thing – although I do speak English nearly as a mother tongue, still sometimes you miss something! especially cultural references when others know exactly what you mean by half a word, I need the full sentence =) (not always though!)
Anyways, what you were talking about there.. the intertwinement. Makes me think of people seeking their identity in others. And placing it on a church, an institution for example. Your own testimony would be nice to hear too sometime, if you are willing to share!
I have talked about my story via articles, books as appropriate but I don’t feel a community board is the right place to go on at length about my story – I’ve seen sites become therapeutic dumping grounds and what Jon has created is too precious for me to let that happen. I touch on it here (and other places) when it illuminates the point.
You definitely got the gist of the message – some things are universal and transcend history.
What? Not even one “I want to be a Pastor’s Wife” T-Shirt from Lark News?
And what are smalls anyway?
Comment by Tyler Dawn — July 10, 2008 @ 12:13 am
Smalls = smallclothes = underwear? Guessing from this side of the pond.
Comment by Gene — July 10, 2008 @ 12:23 am
For the most part, what I see are lonely women who are getting their emotional needs met in a “safe” way that keeps their marriage intact. Often the priest is married or closeted gay (or worse both) – so interacting with these women is a way for him to get his needs met without risking his job security.
In thinking back on the married priest I befriended post 9/11, there was some degree of fantasy on my end. While he focus of our work was building up this ministry he wanted to start (that has yet to really get off the ground), I bought into his schtick that his wife didn’t understand what he was going through, blah, blah, blah — same line I’m sure some horny college professors throw to their students. Fortunately I wised up before we actually started going out – I see now he was a middle age narcissist who has since found an assistant half his age who buys into his BS.
Comment by becky — July 10, 2008 @ 1:04 am
to toon- Yuck!
Sas
Comment by sarah — July 10, 2008 @ 6:16 am
that is freaky, I worked for a parish years ago to work with families alongside the curate, nearly all the women we worked with behaved just like that- and he loved it, he was not oblivious but welcomed it- easy to laugh at now but was disturbing at the time:)
Comment by soniamain — July 10, 2008 @ 6:36 am
Dear Lord, where and who are the remnants that did not get brainwashed by this world? I mean the girls are ´crazy´ and the pastor is supposedly ´oblivious´.
Comment by Pete Rehn — July 10, 2008 @ 7:47 am
oh if only it were this easy to get people to volunteer. I’d be inundated with offers
seriously though. Anyone fancy ironing my smalls?
Comment by Will — July 10, 2008 @ 8:06 am
Post them over Will, I’m feeling humble and know how to operate the iron thing.
Comment by drewman — July 10, 2008 @ 8:23 am
I’ve done a lot of helping out at church in recent years. It was interesting to note the response when a new, very charismatic (with a small ‘c’) priest arrived. One particular woman went out of her way to relieve me of a large number of my tasks I had been doing for a long time. I felt quite hurt by what she did and the bullish way she went about it. I’m still praying my way through how I feel about her, to be brutally frank, she has done so many sly and insidious things to me over the years. But it was exactly the scenario that Becky describes. The priest wasn’t bothered, as long as someone did the work he didn’t care who it was. He is now in a different parish and she is shackled by commitments to our church but goes to see him whenever she can. She has even taken up writing poetry, because he writes poetry. Quite sad really…
But then, if someone sucks up to the priest and does a bit of work, too, at least it shows willing on their part. He was always surrounded by hoards of groupies who weren’t interested in contributing to the community effort, but just liked ‘hanging out’ with the priest. We are a funny species, aren’t we?
Comment by Carole — July 10, 2008 @ 8:37 am
Rogue smiley alert at 9.
Comment by Carole — July 10, 2008 @ 8:39 am
Where are the gay men volunteers?
Comment by andy amoss — July 10, 2008 @ 9:09 am
There are none…they all feel ostracised by traditional church…
Comment by Carole — July 10, 2008 @ 9:15 am
That’s a real shame. Rev Tim has quite the physique.
Comment by andy amoss — July 10, 2008 @ 9:21 am
Haha very funny..I’ve not really met this though. If you don’t count teenage times and youth workers/pastors and teens.
Have met ppl volunteering to do things to gain acceptance, but I don’t think it had anything to do with anything romantic. (ohh and by the way not to me! Am not a pastor by profession
)
Comment by Mimou — July 10, 2008 @ 11:50 am
Well, at least I’m not in the group of women. As Ms Oblivious, the only way I’d notice would be if Rev Tim ACTUALLY came to church in his smalls ….)
Carole: Sorry to hear you’ve been so badly hurt.
“He was always surrounded by hoards of groupies”. ‘Vicar’s groupie’ – how very un-rock & roll!
Comment by janetp — July 10, 2008 @ 11:57 am
Off topic – how do you get the winking smilie?
Comment by janetp — July 10, 2008 @ 11:58 am
Janetp, thanks, but it is really a daft relationship thing – not like anyone is seriously ill or anything. It wouldn’t bother me so much if I hadn’t made quite an effort to forge a positive relationship with her in the past. Never mind – you win some, you lose some!
Winking smiley – semicolon close bracket
Comment by Carole — July 10, 2008 @ 12:09 pm
i’ve watched people at a youth festival i was VJing at recently. There are one or two people that will always have their fans around them and will run and get a bottle of water for them at a drop of a hat. If one of us plebs is in need of a hand getting a table it can be hard to find anyone to help.
The two levels of being a servant. If you are beautiful, talented, up front, extrovert or even manipulative or get the help. If you are just getting on with things it’s hard.
Comment by Will — July 10, 2008 @ 1:01 pm
Where have all the servants gone?
Comment by Will — July 10, 2008 @ 1:02 pm
Aah! I’d always help you shift a table, Will.
Comment by Carole — July 10, 2008 @ 1:17 pm
thanks carol. Helping is great as long as people can see that you are doing it. And it’s easier to do when you get something back. Like the love from a lurvly Rev
Comment by Will — July 10, 2008 @ 1:30 pm
11/12 – I find where you find hordes of gay and lesbian volunteers gather round the clergy aka the fawning faithful, it tends to be in settings where the clergy are openly gay – they are bonding over their shared sexuality and the fact they are also Christian seems to be secondary. As a straight chick, I find these settings very alienating as I can’t join their Christian clique cause I can’t change who I am.
18. You see the girly giggle groupies in spades at youth events – my hope and prayer is that those involved with teens and college kids are trained in how to handle transference – where it does amuck is when the religious leader is either unaware (or worse as you noted, seems to revel in the attention) of the psychological dynamics going on here.
Somehow we think that when we become adults, we’ll “grow up” but the older I get, the more I think “grownup” is a bogus term. We’re all vulnerable human beings – I tell my story to note how even a seasoned journalist with a social work/divinity degree got drawn into this scenario – and like an alcoholic in recovery, I am very acute to the signs when commandments might not be broken but the boundaries are blurry and definitely unhealthy.
But I don’t know what to do except pray when I see others acting out – I am pulling away from an email intervention I “tried” to have with a few male emergent church leaders who don’t get that they are seen as “religious rock stars” (I saw that a bit at Greenbelt but it’s much worse in the US). The women (and even some men) who flock to them and continue to send them emails, inappropriate facebook comments, etc. aren’t friends (How can you really be friends with someone you only met at say a conference esp. when that you’re meeting them in an artificial environment – yes, you can start a relationship that over time can grow.) I figured it was their career and their relationships with their spouses/girlfriends not mine. And besides, they are clearly getting “something” from these interactions or they would set some boundaries.
Comment by becky — July 10, 2008 @ 2:44 pm
As a matter of interest- is the Rev Tina Observant surrounded by lovestruck helpers too?
Comment by Chris F — July 10, 2008 @ 2:48 pm
23. The dynamic John describes tends to happen among the female of the species when interacting with males. Is Rev Tina Observant is a lesbian, as noted, I have seen gays and lesbians gather around outed clergy. But there it’s more the development of yet another exclusionary church clique than the fawning faithful worshiping their leader not Christ.
Having said that, a good chunk of the emergent church rock groupies tend to be predominately male but there they are worshipping the male emergent rock star (there are no female counterparts) . You see them at select conferences gathering around their heroes in search of an “intellectual high.” They seem to be seeking some kind of a male bonding experience and are seemingly oblivious to the presence of chicks in the room. The other time I saw this dynamic in action was when I covered a major comic book convention – the men were so intent on meeting their heroes (e.g., Stan Lee) that they gave no notice to the scantily clad women dressed in very provocative gear as say Wonder Woman. Some of these rock stars also attract female groupies as well – so watching all this play out can be amusing albeit stomach churning. (Watch for this at Greenbelt – trust me it’s there but the amazing stuff far outweighs this minor unholy hooey – and then amp it up considerably and that’s the dynamic in the US.)
Comment by becky — July 10, 2008 @ 3:22 pm
Ever wonder if Jesus’ disciples were little more than fawning groupies, in their day?
Comment by Carole — July 10, 2008 @ 4:20 pm
Somehow we think that when we become adults, we’ll “grow up” but the older I get, the more I think “grownup” is a bogus term. We’re all vulnerable human beings
This is so true, Becky. I seem to expend half my energy battling with my inner child!
Comment by Carole — July 10, 2008 @ 5:14 pm
i’m working on embracing my inner child. he’s me… gotta love him.
Comment by jonbirch — July 10, 2008 @ 5:34 pm
carole 25… i’ve wondered that. they may well have been viewed like that or even been a bit like that. you know what people are like.
Comment by jonbirch — July 10, 2008 @ 5:51 pm
I always wonder that about the disciple John. “The one Jesus loved” makes him sound a bit up himself and also as if he’s sticking the two fingers up to the others…”I was the one he loved, the others were just hangers-on” No doubt all you serious biblical scholars will set me right on that one
Comment by Carole — July 10, 2008 @ 6:02 pm
In 25 with Becky’s comments on boundaries, two thoughts:
thought 1a: wonder how many of the people who need to set boundaries simply do not know how to set boundaries.
thought 1b: where and how is how to set boundaries learned, and taught?
thought 2: sometime in the last 18 months was an article somewhere about youth today have very different attitudes toward boundaries than the over 40 crowd.
Comment by Forrest — July 10, 2008 @ 7:14 pm
Carole,
I always thought that meant he was just honest and happy enough to admit it, sounds like Jesus was particularly fond of him.
Sas x
Comment by sarah — July 10, 2008 @ 7:49 pm
you can’t beet doing the clique sometimes, it’s a great way to get away from the bossy types.
sadly i’ve never met a vicar who i’d bother sucking up too, though it does get on my nerves when you get a leadership that assume we all agree with them about everything, or maybe haven’t got round to thinking yet
the worst though, is when the vicar sprinkles a little guilt on the proceedings, saying something like ‘we should all now repent for our lack of commitment …’ – repent yourself, i’ll wait on the compunction of the holy spirit – so far she’s not said anything about it
Comment by subo — July 10, 2008 @ 10:45 pm
you bet your bloody ass Su.
Comment by sarah — July 10, 2008 @ 10:56 pm
re: Jesus and the disciples -there was some definite jockeying for power – I do wonder how the other 10 disciples felt for instance when Peter and John came down with Jesus post-Transfiguration. I’d be bummed to have missed that moment. We’re human. What’s amazing and healing to me is how the love of Christ shines through the broken and very flawed bodies of his disciples and continues to shine today.
30.
1a-b. I grew up with no boundaries as my late parents were alcoholics – I learned through Adult Children of Alcoholics how to set my own boundaries. I also was part of an amazing Christian community in the 1980s that is no more but it was a lifesaver in helping me to heal – my late spiritual director became for many of us the mommy we never had – no clue where I’d be without that community that came along when I really needed it.
2. Every generation seems to have it’s own defining characteristics that set it apart from the previous generation – one thing that’s clear to me is that the nuclear family is no longer the norm – when my parents divorced in 1977, hardly anyone in my class was a product of divorce and no one dared admit their parents were alcoholics – far different scenario today. BTW-I recommend Phyllis Tickle’s book – “The Great Emergence” when it comes out this fall from Baker Books – she charts how we’re in the midst of another global reformation. I found her insights very helpful in mapping out the territory.
One aspect that complicates the boundary issue is that some emergent church leaders continue to insist this is just a conversation even though there’s a cottage industry developing around this phenomenon – Paraclete, Baker, Abingdon, Jossey-Bass have developed “emergent/emerging church” publishing lines replete with some of their authors positioning themselves as leaders on the Christian conference speaking circuit, planting churches, etc. It’s akin to the youth leader who insists he’s one of the kids when in fact he is at least a college graduate who has a paid job with the church. Hard to set boundaries when you don’t admit that like it or not, you’re seen as a religious leader.
Comment by becky — July 10, 2008 @ 11:46 pm
Hmm maybe I’m a bit tired at the moment and brain not functioning properly (And also sometimes if you come from a different cultural setting/experiences it’s different for you)
..but what kind of boundaries are you talking about Becky? (with regard to that youth leader) And what boundaries (if you care to share) were you lacking bcos of your parents (a need to please? not knowing your own needs?) Just interested.
Blessings
Mimosa
Comment by Mimou — July 11, 2008 @ 12:24 am
Btw cannot believe that priest complaining to you about his wife! Incredible!
Comment by Mimou — July 11, 2008 @ 12:32 am
35. I suspect this is a cultural difference here – given how clueless I am at times in trying to explain Western cultural morays, I’m not sure how well I can translate this. But here goes a slight shot.
Here’s a URL you might find of interest that illuminates the difficulties those who grow up in alcoholic and abusive households can have in establishing healthy boundaries. (I talk about my personal history when asked but in this case the posting would be too far long and off topic.)
http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/pdf/B22_11.pdf
In a nutshell, I’d describe a healthy boundary as the ability to maintain a healthy emotional and physical space between you and the other so that you do not become either too aloof and alone (hence the need for community) or too so intertwined with the other that you lose your own identity.Jon’s posting highlights the latter. As the American diplomat Henry Kissinger once said, “Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac.” Add to it the fact that the dude has a hotline to God and this is a recipe for hero worship if the priest isn’t secure in himself with enough self-awareness to handle what I term the giggle godly groupies.
Now add to this equation the fact that youth group leaders is that they are adults working with minors, and can get dicey as all get out.
36. Actually it’s quite common when one ‘s marriage is on the rocks to seek out others who will give them the emotional support they claim they aren’t getting at home – but as I have a social work degree, I knew he needed to get counseling so he could direct these emotional energies back into his marriage. As I gave him referrals for some post 9/11 family counseling so I “thought” he was trying to keep the marriage intact and that the problem was with his unsupportive spouse. So, I began to function as an emotional sounding board and that’s when our relationship took a toxic turn. I now realize she was getting rightfully PO’d as he was turning down paying work to pursue his dream of a nonprofit and as a result, the family got evicted from their apartment and she had to use foodbanks. om their apartment and she had to use foodbanks.
Comment by becky — July 11, 2008 @ 2:30 am
Can I be your groupie, Jon?
Comment by janetp — July 11, 2008 @ 10:19 am
you can be my friend. i’d like to do an emoticon sticking it’s tongue out now, but i don’t know how! so have a smiley instead.
Comment by jonbirch — July 11, 2008 @ 11:43 am
dots and a capital P
Comment by Robb — July 11, 2008 @ 1:13 pm
the doctor prescribes:
to deal with fawning-over-leader-itis
a healthy dose of “the heretical imperative”
- say something challenging to a leader at least once a month…
Comment by Caroline Too — July 11, 2008 @ 1:48 pm
having said #41,
I do wonder how many church leaders experience this fawning
in contrast
to feeling very bruised by demanding congregation
(you’ve done a lot of cartoons on that point havent’ you Jon?)
Comment by Caroline Too — July 11, 2008 @ 1:50 pm
42. Jon has done the beat up clergy person bit to death – this is another side of the coin and while it’ s less common, these charismatic souls have an ability to attract fawning fans – and as examples such as the Nine O’Clock Service demonstrate, it’s a bloody disaster when the cult of personality runs roughshod over the gospel and no one wants to intervene because the ministry on the surface appears to be a bit hit. (I’ve only read a recommended book on this mess that I was told was an accurate account – sounds horrible.)
I make my comments as someone whose dad was an Episcopal priest/college professor – he was fawned over by the young adults (much to the neglect of his own family) and resented by those “adult” professor and clergy who felt he was being an immature twit. (In hindsight, the criticisms were spot on.)
Comment by becky — July 11, 2008 @ 5:35 pm
hi becky @ 37. thanks for reply – I am western though!! =D (Finland is not THAT far)
Identity is something that interests me hugely. I do somewhat know of dependency and al-anon etc. but was interested to hear more spesifically. I think it’s more of a language thing – although I do speak English nearly as a mother tongue, still sometimes you miss something! especially cultural references when others know exactly what you mean by half a word, I need the full sentence =) (not always though!)
Anyways, what you were talking about there.. the intertwinement. Makes me think of people seeking their identity in others. And placing it on a church, an institution for example. Your own testimony would be nice to hear too sometime, if you are willing to share!
Comment by Mimou — July 11, 2008 @ 6:41 pm
I have talked about my story via articles, books as appropriate but I don’t feel a community board is the right place to go on at length about my story – I’ve seen sites become therapeutic dumping grounds and what Jon has created is too precious for me to let that happen. I touch on it here (and other places) when it illuminates the point.
You definitely got the gist of the message – some things are universal and transcend history.
Comment by becky — July 11, 2008 @ 8:03 pm