536 & 537

About these ads

About jonbirch

animator, illustrator, character designer, graphic designer. music producer/recording musician. co-owner of PROOST. proost.co.uk
This entry was posted in Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink.

45 Responses to 536 & 537

  1. jenn says:

    Thank you for this!!! Finally someone tells it like it is!

  2. zefi says:

    It seems like you think men are depraved. Oh, not that they’re not. And I agree that men will abuse every single responsibility that shall be granted to them. Yeah!

    Now, unto the strip. The title’s misleading. It should be “the half-truth about Complementarianism.”

    Why? Because the women from the first strip sounds like a masochist who don’t know what complementarianism about.
    And for the second one, she shouldn’t be on her knees. She should be standing when she said that. If she insists, then the husband should do the same.

    This is like insisting how Paul adviced the wives to submit to their husband, while keeping silent about the “love your wife as Christ loved the Church.” That is erroneous. You don’t fight misrepresentation of fact with another misrepresentation of fact. Why do you play their game of straw man?

  3. Will says:

    he has a touch of the Mr Burns about him! Good toon. Are these the 2 versions that you are saying that men dream about?

  4. Will says:

    also, HAPPY BRITHDAY Jon! Enjoy your day.

  5. AnneDroid says:

    Are your really sure this is the truth? On behalf of my many lovely brothers and sisters in Christ (although I’m not one) who feel that the Bible teaches this, and who love God so much that they want to please Him with how they live their lives, I have to speak up here.

    Whether complementarianism or any thing similar is true is not what I’m arguing. But whether this is the motivation seems in most cases unlikely to me, and to state it as “the truth” is surely potentially terribly hurtful to earnest souls whose motivation is nothing whatever to do with the one you suggest…

  6. Linus says:

    The first cartoon is clearly about a couple engaging in a little role play to spice up their sex life, so i’ve got no problem with that really – it’s their business.

    The second cartoon is more worrying though. It’s absolutely right that the woman is on her knees and submitting. Its absolutely wrong the man isn’t doing the same. Marriage, and indeed any friendship works best when people are more concerned about the other person than they are about themselves, and more concerned about God than they are about anyone else. And there is no such thing as a mere woman.

  7. subo says:

    just twigged how amazing it is you folk are discussing this in this way

    am used to people going on about sex, but not standing back and taking a look at whats going on

  8. Carole says:

    What a larf! Is it your birthday? Have a good’un. Tell you what, take the rest of the day off! x

  9. soniamain says:

    jon here… on sonia’s computer…

    cheers carole! :-)

    hi annedroid… how long are we going to keep letting misogyny off the hook? i can think of loads of wonderful people who believe all kinds of daft things. things that enslave their children and their children’s children. i know many wonderful women who have been crushed and it takes them years to find their voice and confidence… granted, the cartoon’s a bit daft… and yes i am having a go at men holding these views and women allowing that.
    i just don’t think fear of getting it right for god should be used as an excuse any longer… it’s awful… good people are to blame…
    why should i tippytoe around this issue, when those who perpetrate this nonsense go unchallenged.
    in my view the cartoons are daft but true… not for everyone maybe, but i’ve seen this on many occasions, sadly.

  10. Forrest says:

    Complementarianism was a term which hadn’t stuck in my head so went and Wiki’d it.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complementarianism

    Even without knowing the term have seen entire church societies built around that. Been in or to a couple.

    This sounds reasonable from Wiki: “An alternative view: Complementarity without hierarchy
    Complementarian and Christian Egalitarian views need not be mutually exclusive, according to some recent proposals that one can subscribe both to complementarity and Christian egalitarianism. This theoretically would allow men and women to complement each other without any form of hierarchy. This view argues that the Bible prescribes both equality and complementary positions and roles for both men and women. One academic book advocating this position is Discovering Biblical Equality: Complementarity Without Hierarchy.[7]”

    Looking at list of denominations subscribing to Complementarianism – uh-oh! I was raised in 2 of them:
    “Groups of churches that broadly support this position include some members of the Southern Baptist Convention,[3] the Presbyterian Church of America, the ”

    In the end, it’s probably a case of:
    “Okay, now we know what all the theologians say; but what does God say? To you?”

  11. soniamain says:

    this is me now and not Jon!

    I don’t think Jon is intending to mean his cartoons literally, but I do think he is raising a question about whether it is ok to accept and endorse this viewpoint. I am a mother of 2 beautiful, strong girls, I don’t want them growing up in a church community where it is accepted that is ok for women to be told that their role in life is to serve men; if they know they have gifts in leadership and they can not use them in case it offends men, this would be so wrong. I grew up in a church community where it was clear a number of the women were wiser, better leaders and yet they could not lead because they were women. That left me believing women were weak, unworthy and were not as good as men. That was 25 years ago, I pray that my children don’t have to experience this- 1 big reason I don’t do main stream church anymore.

  12. Clare says:

    Like you Forrest I didn’t know this term, so I looked to the Wiki definition as well. Here’s the bit that stuck out for me: “…with respect to roles in the church and in marriage, gender-based differences determine or restrict the roles appropriate for each. Specifically, there are requirements of men, and restrictions on women.” Can I tell you, I felt so sad and hopeless to discover that someone has even bothered to develop terminology for this argument. It is so utterly outdated. I am fed up to the back teeth of hearing the same old misogynist crap dressed up as theology. George Orwell comes to mind – complementarianism is surely the christian version of the dictator’s statement “all animals are equal. But some are more equal than others.” It is diminishing and degrading the image of God in men and women when we misuse the Bible in order to restrict the creative development of their god-given gifts. And the longer this goes on being an issue in the church, the more women and men will simply walk away from it in search of more constructive arenas in which to develop their calling.

  13. zefi says:


    hi annedroid… how long are we going to keep letting misogyny off the hook? i can think of loads of wonderful people who believe all kinds of daft things. things that enslave their children and their children’s children. i know many wonderful women who have been crushed and it takes them years to find their voice and confidence… granted, the cartoon’s a bit daft… and yes i am having a go at men holding these views and women allowing that.
    i just don’t think fear of getting it right for god should be used as an excuse any longer… it’s awful… good people are to blame…
    why should i tippytoe around this issue, when those who perpetrate this nonsense go unchallenged.
    in my view the cartoons are daft but true… not for everyone maybe, but i’ve seen this on many occasions, sadly.

    Then you should be doing one about misogyny, not about complementarianism. Sure, there are people who abuses women by used this complementarianism excuse, but there are also those who did the same thing by taking St. Paul’s writing out of context. So what, we’re gonna say that he’s a misogyny also then?

    I’m not saying that these people are correct, of course they’re not. The only thing I’m against is your method of misrepresenting this concept. I’m against the painting of unfair and false picture of people.

    I don’t think Jon is intending to mean his cartoons literally, but I do think he is raising a question about whether it is ok to accept and endorse this viewpoint. I am a mother of 2 beautiful, strong girls, I don’t want them growing up in a church community where it is accepted that is ok for women to be told that their role in life is to serve men; if they know they have gifts in leadership and they can not use them in case it offends men, this would be so wrong. I grew up in a church community where it was clear a number of the women were wiser, better leaders and yet they could not lead because they were women. That left me believing women were weak, unworthy and were not as good as men. That was 25 years ago, I pray that my children don’t have to experience this- 1 big reason I don’t do main stream church anymore.

    I’m also not ok with churches who would tell women that their role in life is to serve men; they should be serving people, irregardless of gender. But I wonder, what do you guys actually mean when you talk about this “leadership” thingy? Is it teaching theology, determining the church’s (lowercase c) vision, handling finances, organizing rallies and stuff? What leadership are we talking about here? Are we talking about leadership as in leading people, or leadership as in serving people?

    Don’t mean to judge anyone, but I’m always skeptical when people wanted to be recognized officially as leaders, regardless of whether they are men or women; I’ve seen people being able to serve(or lead) without official ordination.

  14. Chris F says:

    Looks like the joke is still on us men – and yes, we can take it!
    Jon is right to satirise this misuse of the word complementary

    BUT! – I still think that a real woman (a woman with an enligtened understanding of who she is in Christ) wants a real man. And vice versa. And that’s what complementarity is about. Ironically I think men have a less enlightened view than women of who they are in Christ – which is why we make such asses of ourselves; and why real men are so few on the ground

  15. dennis says:

    sometimes i love trying to figure out what you guys are on about, why do i say that? simply because i feel like i have no idea what your on about! Its not a criticism its just i have no idea whats being talked about. I probably know whats going on but i dont understand the words being used, so i just say I am on the fence because i havnt a clue.

    All i got from the cartoon was she must be having an afair because man no.1 clearly isnt man no.2.

    It did make me wonder and this might be off topic but i dont think domination in a relationship is a male/female issue, i know some domineering women too.

  16. soniamain says:

    Zefi i think the role of leadership is multi faceted.

    For me it’s not about “people wanted to be recognized officially as leaders”- it’s about the messages the church gives through saying you can serve that person tea because you are a woman, you can make decisions because you are a man. I believe God gave us all the skills to make decisions, and us all the skills to make tea. He/she did not say men are better at decision making than women, or mens decisions are right and womens are not. I think as a church we need to start growing up, I am tired and disapointed that as a church we are still having these conversations.

  17. Carole says:

    Is it just me or does the guy in picture (a) bear a striking resemblance to Wolf from Gladiators?

  18. jonbirch says:

    i remember wolf from gladiators… although i’m pretty sure he wasn’t a real wolf… :-)

  19. jonbirch says:

    hey chris f. i reckon real men are few on the ground because they’re in the clouds. :-)

  20. zefi says:

    I believe God gave us all the skills to make decisions, and us all the skills to make tea. He/she did not say men are better at decision making than women, or mens decisions are right and womens are not.

    Agreed. Just as not all men who insist on marrying can make good husband, and many who chose to celibate would’ve been very good ones.

  21. jonbirch says:

    dennis… i agree with you re. relationships. my problem is with the deliberate institutionalised imbalance there often is in the church. check out ‘complimentarianism’ on wikipaedia… it’s just another way of gagging women.
    bondage in the privacy of your own home is one thing… institutionalised bondage is quite another. it’s damaging to both sexes, even if both parties are consenting.

  22. clare says:

    chris f- what is a real man? does wolf from gladiators count?!?

  23. Chris F says:

    Clare – what is a real man? Wolf may count, tho it looks like daft male posturing to me ( I would say that, not being the finest specimen of manhood you could find, bodily at any rate). Wolf would count if he has grown to accept the feminine aspects of who he is, but not stopped there – as so many men, christian and otherwise, do; but moved on from that base to a deeper understanding of masculinity

    The same process but the other way around has to happen for women too of course – I could ask you, what is a real woman? :-)

    But I’d better stop or I’ll write pages on this stuff. It troubles me deeply to see the depth of poverty of male spirituality in our culture

  24. drewman says:

    Chris,

    Oh No!……. you mean that there is a male spirituality as well!
    I had just got comfortable with one spirituality for all, not sure if i can really cannot cope with 2 different types of spirituality.

    it has to be said that complimantaria-whatsit seems to me to be more about whosoever is weaker picking up what’s left rather than any kind of equality. Now this happens, but when you wrap it up in a long word, tell everyone that its somehow ‘theological’ -another long word- you are simply being manipulative. It’s getting what you want on the sly.

  25. Forrest says:

    “It’s getting what you want on the sly.”
    Personally, I’d rather get it by brute force and fear.
    So if we’re gonna go for 536 and 537, count me in – nothing done to half-measure here!

    Ya know what, if you want a woman to give herself to you of her own will, what’s that old saying, yeah, “Husbands, love your wives as Christ loves the Church.”

    Give a long, serious, thinking through of Just Exactly How Christ loves his church.
    If you REALLY come to understand it, it’ll scare ya stiff.

    And believe me, there’s way more times I get the doing of that wrong than right.

  26. Caroline Too says:

    Is Complementarianism acceptable between consenting adults

    or

    is it even worse there?

  27. jonbirch says:

    thanks will! :-)

    too right forrest. :-)

    even worse i guess caroline… at very least just as bad! good point. :-) btw, cracking meeting you at greenbelt… clare really enjoyed her time with you also. much love. x

  28. lolori says:

    First of all… her bun’s way too tight.

  29. jonbirch says:

    haha!:-) i can’t believe you’re quibbling over her hair style! :-)

  30. jody says:

    i often hear the argument that complementarianism is like a contract that never has to be implemented – ie that the man makes the final decision when it’s a an issue that they really cannot agree on, but that the relationship should never get to the point where the husband and wife can’t work it out.

    so i ask – surely we have to ask questions of a contract set up by God between men and women that never should be implemented! and if it is it is solely implemented on the basis that ‘women wear bras and men have a penis’ (to quote someone, i can’t remember who ;-) )

  31. jonbirch says:

    yeh jody… they’re just making it all up! it’s nonsense, all of it. :-)

  32. Robb says:

    I guess the reason men don’t rail against complementatianist is because they like the side of the fence that they are place on. We have had womens liberation but not male liberation. Until that happens we wont understand. As soon as men start demanding the right to wear skirts and stay at home cooking dinner we will see the problem more clearly.

    Incidentally, when women wore trousers we called it liberation. When a man wears a skirt we call it cross dressing, kinky and fetish.

    Watch this from 1 minute 55 seconds and enjoy.

    (As a fully paid up harley riding bloke – I can’t believe I made the wearing of skirts the crux of my argument – it’ll never stand up in court!!)

  33. Robb says:

    Sorry, working my way through the last weeks posts. If I may I would like to quote carole in an earlier post to substantiate my claims:

    “I suppose the whole gender role thing is tied up in custom and practice, too. I remember having a male midwife assist me with breastfeeding when my youngest was born. I’m sure he was very good at his job, but it felt really weird having a strange man involved with this intimate act.”

  34. jonbirch says:

    interesting thoughts robb.

  35. beatthedrum says:

    Just some thoughts from a Complimentarian man.

    Firstly I wish i did not believe in complimentarianism (if there is such a word) as it places a very heavy burden around my neck.

    My wife ‘submits’ to my ‘authority’ but i have to use that ‘authority’ in a Christ like way.

    This is not a commanding way but a loving way just as Christ loved the church. IE by laying down my life and sacrificing it for her. This is a terrible burden.

    Our view of authority is so wrong, its about showing a lead not pushing people into doing something.

    Until we understand biblical ‘authority’ then we will never fully comprehend the role of a leader, father, husband or wife.

    Authority is a dirty word in our times. Let us remember that we are all under AUTHORITY that of Jesus and Father. We came under that authority when we asked him to be LORD (that is master, owner) of our lives. He uses that Authority in love, grace and compassion. What he does in our lives he does for good even when he disciplines us.

    So should all authority be in the church.

  36. jonbirch says:

    beatthedrum… you sound like a guy who’d die for his wife… that’s cool. when we got married, both clare and i said ‘obey’ in our vows.
    i wonder, are there times when your wife IS the authority? a more skilled chef than you? or a more skilled driver? or better with numbers? or is this not what you mean by authority. my wife is the authority on some things, me on others. both of us struggle on some… but we try and take responsibility equally (sometimes i fail) for each other’s nurture.
    it seems that a lot of words used in the bible have changed over the years… language does that… and a lot of references need their language updating to be understood. then there is the issue of culture… a culture 2000 years older than our own but equally as flawed and in a very different part of the world. jesus liberates where church culture often wants to constrain… the words of jesus, paul et al have been twisted and corrupted through the years so that one sex may dominate another… and so the battle goes on… i do know that many who would hold a complimentarianist view would almost mean the exact opposite of some of what you are saying, but use almost exactly the same words.
    respect sir. :-)

  37. Carole says:

    Robb (33) I think he was a midwife…could have been a porter, I suppose…perhaps I should have asked to look at his credentials…

  38. beatthedrum says:

    Jon…. I see what you are saying however I think your talking about skills rather than authority in the biblical sense.

    Personally I do not like the over culturalisation of the bible ie that was for then and there. When the bible was written not only for then and there but also for the future times such as now.

    It is Fathers words and timeless. I also get a little concerned when we put modern thinking onto the bible and subvert what it seams to say to fit in with our culture and times.

    Gods ways are not our ways or our times ways. Sometimes we forget that.

    I find it interesting that those church streams who have allowed women ministers are now the streams that are in trouble, numbers declining and struggling to fullfill the great commission. I am not saying that it is because of the women leaders, but maybe it is from the lack of male leaders.

    The church today is not dominated by men infact the church has not been dominated by men for the last 100 years or more. Infact it is dominated by women. (excluding the catholic church).

    Even in my church which is an NFI church there for complimentarian, a lot of the ministries are lead by women. The balance in the church is about 50 / 50 in terms of ministry leadership. In most churches it is closer to 80 : 20 women : men.

    Can i recommend an excellent book – “Why men dont go to church” by dave murrow a review of which can be find here http://beatthedrum.wordpress.com/book-reviews/why-men-hate-going-to-church-david-murrow/ on my blog. It looks at why men dont go to church and comes up with a number of interesting statistics and theories.

  39. jonbirch says:

    i don’t think for one second that because it was written for then it is only valid for then. i do think that in order to understand what it is saying you have to know what the recipient of the letter would understand it to mean. if i write to my grandmother, telling her not to wear her hat in bed and 2000 years later someone reads my letter and says all women shouldn’t wear hats in bed that’d be ridiculous. you’d first need to know why she shouldn’t wear it in bed. the reason is because it is nylon and so is the pillow and her head might catch on fire! the context is everything when deciphering the meaning.
    as for the domination of women in the church, that depends what you mean by domination. if you mean numbers, then true… if you mean holding the power, then untrue.

    a wise irish girl friend said to me only a week ago. one problem with the protestant tradition is that one of the first stories we learn is the one about adam and eve… and what are we taught… that women cannot be trusted with decisions.

    it’s a good job jesus rose from the grave, or he’d be turning in it at the way we behave. we are all made in the image of god, male/female, black white etc. etc. it’s about time we all started seeing christ in the other gender as opposed to meeting out jobs based on our body parts.

  40. jonbirch says:

    60 years ago, women didn’t have the vote because of these crazy stereotypes. thank god for ol’ pankhurst… a true leader!

  41. beatthedrum says:

    Not these views a warped and twisted unbiblical view.

    Nobody said women cannot lead, just for some of us the way we read what is written in the word says they should not be in leadership over the church.

  42. jonbirch says:

    the way we read is everything.

  43. April says:

    If we say that Paul’s instruction regarding women in the church is only for the specific culture to which he was speaking, then how can we take anything he has to say as relevant for us today? Not being sarcastic…and I will admit that I don’t know my scripture well enough to have a confident opinion on the subject. It just seems dangerous to me to say, “Well that was only for them, but this part is for us.” On what basis do we decide which parts of the Bible to follow, and which parts not to?

  44. Robb says:

    The problem is that if we don’t take biblical scholarship seriously and just whip bits and pieces around we can draw the conclusion that “dashing [your enemies] babies against rocks” is an acceptable thing to do.

  45. ianamo says:

    If the cartoon reflected the views of complementarianism (as for the practice, I don’t know), the man wouldn’t be facing the woman, but on his knees too facing the elders of the church and submitting to their authority; and the elders in turn would be on their knees, facing Jesus and submitting to his authority.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s