I have no problems with women in church leadership in he same way that I don’t have problem with men in church leadership it’s all about God’s calling. Is the issue that God’s call on women isn’t being recognized or is the issue that God is not calling as many women?
Thank you for this 1 Jon. I have a real concern that emerging church and leadership is just going down the same was as main stream church- mostly men. Most of the emerging church groups I know that have someone leading them it is mostly men who are the leaders. Marcus I don’t believe for a moment that God is not not calling as many women. I do think it is mostly a male dominated area, where it is hard for women to be recognised, be encouraged. Another issue is where you do have women in leadership they rarely get invited to speak or contribute their ideas, why- because it is the men doing the inviting and they invite people within their networks- other men!- all very frustrating.
Comment by soniamain — September 13, 2008 @ 5:27 pm
Whenever i meet with other ministers in my area whether its denominational or inter-denominational there is a good representation of men and women (probably more in the inter-denominational meetings) but their points of view and their engagement with whatever we are doing is always accepted at the same level as anyone else.
How many women are there who feel called to ministry either in the institutionalised church or emerging church who are not following that call or able to realise that calling because their call is being squashed by a male hierarchical system?
Or could it be that women are not recognising the call due to the fact that for so long it has been the norm that it is a male dominated area?
I think Marcus has a good point in saying that women sometimes have trouble recognizing or valuing a gifting for leadership because of the way many of us have been socialized to think of ourselves and our roles. My church, like other emergent churches, professes to value women in leadership, and indeed, 3 of our 5 staff members (all part time) are women. However, we have struggled to find women who are interested and able to commit to our board of directors and other leadership roles, and I am constantly aware that all of the women, both on staff and on our board, are under 30, and without kids. Our problem seems to be that church leadership is not a priority for women with families, whether they work outside the home or not.
Perhaps the women are leading… but the guys aren’t recognising God’s leading in us?
perhaps the way leadership might be happening isn’t recognisable to people still hung up on ‘leader’ stereotypes
maybe, just maybe there are a multitude of “still small voices” that we need to learn to hear
but we’re still listening to the male voice leader, our ears are still attuned to old ways of leading…
maybe it’s not a lack of women leaders just that us followers are moving in emerging circles…
Comment by Caroline Too — September 13, 2008 @ 8:02 pm
“but their points of view and their engagement with whatever we are doing is always accepted at the same level as anyone else.” not being funny, but how do you know that?
“Perhaps the women are leading… but the guys aren’t recognising God’s leading in us?” hmmm, good point.
it’s both a relief and a heartbreak to look at my reactions to this cartoon.
the relief is admitting that most of the stuff that drives me nuts in mainstream church is alive and well, kicking and screaming, in emerging church
the heartbreak is that I’m just so tired of it all, i don’t want to go to another service where we ask ‘what are we about’ – but have no intention of asking ‘what do you want?, those of you who’ve turned up in support month after month.’
I’m tired of our western cultures addiction to ‘new stuff’
I’m tired of that feeling of being blackmailed into being at services, because it’s important – why?
the other day i dreamed of belonging to a church where there was a real commitment to physically demonstrate our love for each other, to share words of encouragement, to find a welcoming gaze meeting me when I got there instead of that pious head down hush – maybe it’s me, but oh for a giggle and a laugh and a hug
and please, if you find a church that has outlawed emotional blackmail, please can you give me the contact details – i really don’t care if it’s run exclusively by men, just as long as there’s a real sense of fun and freedom
In response to your question Jon, I should have phrased the point more carefully and it should read “and” their points of view etc etc rather than “but” – I know this because a lot of the time it is the women vicars, ministers etc who give a lead with ideas and putting them into action and none of us male leaders feel threatened or patronising or even patronised! And if, as occasionally happens, someone does offer a patronising tone towards one of our female colleagues it is picked up on and dealt with. But I am aware that this is not case in other places.
Or could it be that women are not recognising the call due to the fact that for so long it has been the norm that it is a male dominated area? (Marcus)
I think it’s mainly this: women not recognizing their being called into a leadership position.
That said…
Perhaps the women are leading… but the guys aren’t recognising God’s leading in us? (Caroline Too)
Taking myself as an example, people have identified me as a ‘leader’ – I always like John Maxwell’s definition being ’someone who influences’ – and as a result of my ability to influence have been asked to be in various roles of leadership, some of which I’ve accepted.
Whilst I’m male, in pscyhometric profiles I’m always stereotypically female – I’m empathetic, touchy-feely, want people to understand themselves etc.
I’ve also been fortunate to be part of a church which actively encourages female leadership.
Recently, I was chatting to an older Christian leader friend of mine about the fact that I could see myself leading a church but was unsure as to whether that was definitely my ‘calling’ – he said “I could see you in a number 2 position of leader, but not as the number 1 leader”
When I pressed him for what he meant, he described ‘#1 leaders’ as visionary, go-get-em types who come up with all the ideas and leave the implementation to others (my paraphrase) and ‘#2s’ were basically not #1s.
I told him I disagreed with him but it highlighted a serious issue I have with church leadership – that the church sees ‘leaders’ solely as people that envision and make decisions – essentially business executives – and we all know that men are far more likely to be that type of person.
I guess what I’m saying is that (1) because our western Church is so plugged into the Western cultural mindset, we misunderstand what leadership is in the first place, and (2) because we have a warped vision of what leadership is we are predisposed to picking blokes – or women who are more stereotypically-male than usual.
I think your spot on Little, I really do think the problem is more about our western mindset than about the gender of the people in leadership – because there’s so many examples of women leading with the same agenda, and others – like Brother Roger, where a man has bought a sense of belonging and of being valued to thousands of people
I also think its a real challenge to keep hold of God’s voice against so much labelling and discouragement that is part of our western mindset
On point Jon! This point needs to be driving home. We ought not settle on the idea that some suppose that it may take a generation for women to rise in leadership in this new form of the church.
What I find frustrating in the US is that I come from a denomination (Episcopal) that has ordained women legally since 1979 and the US presiding bishop is female. But when I go into US postevangelical emergent circles, there’s talk about including women but yet it’s still mostly PhD, white, males who are independent church planters. I sense they feel they are including women though they are still looking at this discussion through a very narrow academic lens that by it’s very nature is self-selecting. I’ve concluded that life is too short and I’m tired of gatherings where one talks the talk but is walking as though they have a case of the spiritual rickets.
Also Jon – all of your characters are white – that certainly is not the kingdom of God.
Heather (4) you raise a good point that often women in emerging church leadership are under 30 without children. I think your right, you say that in your experience at your church it is hard to find people to commit to the roles. Is this because emerging church is just making the same mistakes that main stream church has done. Expect too much of the leaders, only recognise and encourage a few peoples skills, and still expect women to do ‘the childcare’.
I belong to a small alt worship community, we don’t have 1 leader. There are a few of us who take responsibility for leading services, and that is almost equal mix of male and women, if anything slightly more women. We do have children who are a full part of our community and their mums and dads take equal responsibility for them. It doesn’t always work, but as a group we are committed to supporting one another. Like Subo I find it depressing that overall emerging church is still make the same mistakes as traditional church.
Comment by soniamain — September 14, 2008 @ 7:36 am
“why- because it is the men doing the inviting and they invite people within their networks- other men” – sonia’s right, i think
Subo – my chapel has no emotional blackmail at all. Result: the congregation is small but happy and they stay each others’ friends for life even after they move away. There are people, though, who have said out loud that it’s a mark of my inadequacies that I don’t fill the pews. Maybe that’s why people don’t think I’m a successful “leader” (whatever that means). You can’t have it both ways, that’s the problem.
Maggi really interesting that you agree with my comment, I have always perceived you as 1 of those few women who have managed to be ‘accepted into the male emerging leaders club’!!, I have always respected your ability to have deep theological conversations and retain a grounding in being a woman and a mum!. Never had the chance to meet you but have read your blog and had a few emails with you over the years and seen your postings on other google type conversations!
Comment by soniamain — September 14, 2008 @ 9:10 am
Maggi, keep up the good work. It’s ladies like you who I look up to as a young leader. I talked about this exact point when I gave feedback to a leadership course, and all the teachers were men! Maybe the imbalance in the emerging leaders has something to do with the generation before. I think it will take a while before it will be an equal picture.
Though you should have been in my church this morning, plenty of women leaders there, and I would describe our church as matriarchal. Lots of stronger women. Though that’s not necessarily a good thing either. I understand a little bit more each day about why God created Adam and Eve, teamwork!!
Am not in an emerging church, so maybe, hey…whatever.
As an aside there’s Leaders and there’s leaders.
It seems to me that Big L Leaders, are the official people at the front or making the decisions; getting paid or who have an expense account.
Little L leaders seem to be the peple who continually bring other people along with them, they have a following, they are leading other people, they are the folk other people go to for the chats and the prayers.
ok, not one to brag…but our leadership team in sanctus1 has more women on it than men…imho men in the emerging church need to practice what they preach with regard to the inclusion of women.
do brag Ben!!, and not only do you have women on your leadership you also have services that positvely encourage children – hooray!- sanctuary have often felt more similar to sanctus1 than many other groups
Comment by soniamain — September 14, 2008 @ 8:03 pm
Probably someone has already said this, but women are in the primary leadership roles in the Kingdom. Women lead, moreso than men, in the way that Jesus did. Women are natural servants, in that we tend to give and serve without thinking about it. In fact, we have to be trained NOT to do it. Women don’t have to be told to wash feet, we have been doing so since the dawn of man. We change diapers on our children and on our parents when the time comes, we are there with words of mercy and shoulders for crying on, far more so than men. I could go on.
Let the men have their “recognised” leadership roles, while the women are involved in the heart’s work of the kingdom, actually loving people. That’s what Jesus did most. He rarely addressed large crowds and he never performed miracles in front of adoring throngs. He didn’t write books, or tell people the do’s and don’ts of how to meet together (other than to explain to those men that they needed to serve and love).
Perhaps the reason Jesus took male followers, as much as anything else, was because the message of the Kingdom is easier for the women to swallow and it was the men who needed the intensive instruction at how to heal, how to nurture, how to forgive, how to love, how to serve.
I wonder, if you were to look at God’s lineup of leaders, instead of at a cartoon, what, if anything, would be different….
I ought to fix that statement “he never performed miracles in front of adoring throngs”
what I meant to say was that he never performed a miracle in front of adoring throngs for the sake of doing it in front of adoring throngs of people. Hope that makes sense….
I was talking with a group of female youth workers about ‘The Sophia Network’ a network that supports and resources women in youth work. The Sophia Network recognizes that in an area that is often male dominated there is this need for women to be encouraged and it seek to be in this gap. The attitudes of women youth workers I spoe to were split on this matter though, some seeing it as a feminist movement as opposed to a support network. I think this attitude goes further than the sophia network though, that women in leadership can sometimes be viewed and criticised (most often by other women) as being feminists. The challanges that women can face in leadership can relate unfairly to gender,when the motivation regardless of gender is often the same, a life lived as a response to God.
ABSO,
You know, I have to agree with you on this one. It’s true. Fortunately, I’m one to represent the estrogen breed. Ha!
I have one thought of why women are not yet coming out of the institutional churches as quickly as men. Okay, again, THIS IS MY OPINION. I’m thinking that over the centuries and ESPECIALLY in the last 4-5 decades, the IC has increasingly become, well, feminized. The songs such, the system/structure IC’s take, the way pastors and leaders carry themselves, has become passive and even feminine in feeling.
After all, visit many IC’s today, and if one were to do a head-count, I bet you women would far outscore men.
I think, for awhile, men have been turned off by the efemininity IC’s have become. Thus, perhaps why more have grown disillusioned with it and found it easier to step away with something that really hasn’t related to them for awhile.
But, I KNOW that Father is working in the hearts of many women…and will continue to reveal to us why many congregations will not feed them what they are hungering for.
[...] SEPT 14 UPDATE: Turn out that ON THE VERY SAME DAY, the cartoon blog ASBO JESUS was running a post on the VERY SAME THEME. Check it out and check out the comments, too. Link here. [...]
i agree with sonia and maggi – this is a huge issue and men need to realise that they need to intentionally think about inviting women into their networks/speaking etc, because it does not appear to be something that is naturally happening.
It’s a pity that they have to “think” about doing it at all. When it gets to that stage you’d have to be suspicious that you were asked or elected to massage the numbers. Leadership isn’t really the issue with me, Id just like to be listened to from time to time.
I think the issue of invites goes deeper culturally than men need to think about inviting women. I think what needs to happen first is that men need to learn how to be friends with women without that being a perceived danger to either party. Networks and contacts are more strongly made through social time than formal time, invites are more likely to be given to someone you had an amazing chat with down the pub than someone you don’t know. If men and women cannot have meaningful interactions during social times for fear of unhealthy attachments/affairs/and the like, then men will never have the natural links with women which will make them even think of inviting them. It still seems that the women who get released are the ones married to the men doing the releasing, likely because they are friends and equals to each other and are seen for who they are.
I also agree with Tyler Dawn, so much of leadership can actually be personal kingdom building. Let whoever wants that have it, the glory here is all the reward personal kingdom builders will get. If we all (women and men) get on with discipling people (which is, after all, what Jesus tells us to do not ‘go and be leaders’) then it all doesn’t matter so much who gets the accolade of being ‘leader’.
Kate – “It still seems that the women who get released are the ones married to the men doing the releasing” – that’s a phenomenon very obvious in the New Churches (what used to be called House Churches). I left that movement several decades back, mostly because, being single, I got very bored not being allowed to anything at all except wait(yawn) for a husband… meantime some staggeringly untalented people were leading the music, and I could have played them off the stage. But couldn’t be anointed ’cause I didn’t have a man to “cover” my ministry. Bye Bye to that.
re 28: Sara – thanks for talking to other youth workers about Sophia! Interesting that some people see it as a feminist movement and that that’s seen as a negative thing. I’m very happy to call myself a feminist but my understanding of the word is that it’s about the equality of men and women. I know it’s a word that carries a lot of baggage and it’s also a generational thing – younger women tend not to use the word. I do think it’s a shame if people have the wrong idea about the Sophia Network though – we definitely are about support.
whenever women set up their own support network or training or anything else for that matter, there is always the danger that the half witted or ill informed will see some feminist agenda at work.
having just looked at a photo of tyler dawn on her blog i can also vouch for the fact that she is not a man… unless she’s the one with the beard… in which case it is a very fine beard tyler.
I’ve finally understood what the fuss was all about.
I thought that whenever a Christian utters the word “leader,” he meant “servant.” Why? Because of what Jesus has done on that meaningful night, I’ve come to define ‘leading’ as ’serving.’
Now I’ve finally understand that around here, whenever someone says “leader,” he/she meant “decision maker,” and “leadership” primarily means “decision making.”
Thanks Jon, and Maggi, that was right before I waxed this month. Yes, I am the butch one and the babe with me is my gay lover/episcopalian priest.
But seriously this harkens back to the time before I knew how to do avatars. People would see Tyler and assume I was a man and dang that made for some confusing stuff!
You would not believe the stuff I have inadvertently gotten away with by using just Tyler and “teaching” legalistic men. They loved me, praised me, and then when they found out I was a woman…. ooooh nelly! I never hid it, but I didn’t publicise it either.
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Maybe they are just holding true to scripture as they see it.
But havent we done this argument already.
I also think we put too much emphasis on ‘leading’ being the ‘big thing’.
Men and women are different that is a fact we are not the same. We both hold equal worth in the eyes of Father. But he made us different for a reason. I am not sure what the reason is mind you
Comment by beatthedrum — September 16, 2008 @ 9:01 am
Oh no! I can’t believe I actually missed an ASBO! Didn’t realise it was there and I’ve missed a great conversation!
I am such a fortunate woman. When I was just a baby in the 60s, women in their teens and 20s were getting to grips with the ‘permissive society’, career, education opportunities and all sorts. These have been my role models throughout life. Like all older sisters, they have made all the mistakes and cleared the way for their younger sisters. In the grand scheme (please don’t quote the early church for me here) women have not been at ministry in the church as we know it for very long. They will smooth the way and great things will happen in their wake. I am convinced of it.
Some fantastic comments on this one. I particularly liked Kate’s comment at 33 – it seems to me that in the UK at least, there is still a general tendency to over-endow all male-female contact with the assumption of at least POTENTIAL sexual connotations, which can make ordinary friendships difficult to make and sustain. One effect of this, I think, is to render the opposite gender (from both sides) a bit of a mystery, which is never going to help us to appreciate each other’s different approaches. So as far as leadership is concerned, perhaps we DO tend to stick with what we know.
Zefi, wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could all adopt the servanthood approach to leadership! Unfortunately, here in the UK the model is still very much the hierarchical model used down the ages in other power institutions (business, government etc).:( On the plus side, there are many churches that do, at least, now actively encourage a strong lay involvement which helps us move away from the traditional (male) top-down structure.
Sonia (16), you raise some interesting points about the practical issues faced by many women who may wish to take on leadership roles. I’m glad Santuary are so committed to exploring how church might actually WORK if these things were taken into account.
Carole, you are absolutely right. And I for one would like to say a big THANK YOU to all those fantastic women who have/are grafting so hard to make it easier for the rest of us. We owe them a lot.
Beatthedrum (47): maybe the reason we keep coming back to similar discussions on this topic is because here on ASBO the women who feel restricted, even silenced or ignored by ‘the Church’ feel they can have a voice. That they can vent their frustrations, offer their opinions, challenge and be challenged in an environment where they will be listened to, respected, accepted by both men AND women.
I was commenting on an earlier discussion about the roles of men and women in church and how it is formed by how you read scripture. Which was done to death in an earlier post.
Personally I find most western churches too female orientated.
Its strange that in the denominations who have embrassed female headship of the local church the numbers in general are falling with the churches becomeing as a denomination less effective at reaching the lost. I am speaking here of the denominations as a whole not individual churches of course.
I belong to a ‘complimentarian’ church for want of a better word. Where the ‘office’ of elder can only be held by a man, based on a reading of the NT. My ’stream’ have often been attacked for this stand. However I cannot relate to your “he women who feel restricted, even silenced or ignored by ‘the Church’ feel they can have a voice. That they can vent their frustrations, offer their opinions, challenge and be challenged in an environment where they will be listened to, respected, accepted by both men AND women.” tto any of the churches I have been in. The women had a voice were listened to respected and never silenced or restricted.
I would hate to be part of a church that did that.
Comment by beatthedrum — September 16, 2008 @ 11:43 am
Beatthedrum – to be fair, Janet didn’t infer that you did not respect men and women, that is your interpretation. In fact as you are a contributor here, she was saying just the opposite.
I think that we can make assumptions about what people around us ‘think’ or ‘feel’. Unless we actually bother to ask them, we can never know for sure. Because we cannot relate to a particular problem or situation, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.
I never did get this- in our (Charismatic) organisation, we used to constantly hear how leaders were being invited to lead after much prayer and ‘Seeking God’s will’… and then the same organisation got in a funk over how few women got into leadership. I understand their concerns, but the two statements seem to contradict each other: does it mean that God got it wrong, or they got it wrong, or God got it right but they needed to make up the numbers?
Alas I never found out, because after ‘Praying and listening to God’ the (Mixed) local leadership threw us out…
Ask yourself? What is/was the gender of your Sunday School/childrens ministry leader, your prayer group leader, the person that encouraged you in your Christian walk, the missions and evangelism leader, the church secretary/administrator and so on…. In the church I grew up in they were 97% female. Yes the minister tends to be male but who is setting the tone of the church? Who is teaching young Christians the disciplines, who are the everyday examples of how to live, the mentors, the spiritual parents? Who is actually leading??
Fascinating answers – I’m now dealing with a scenario in which a female friend of mine arranged an emerging panel for a major event that was 50/50 male female here in the states – no mean feat. And now one of the male emergent rock stars cancelled as he’s doing a solo gig. I am a bit surprised at myself at how much that stings. I thought I was used to the exclusionary aspect of emerging church but I guess I’m not.
Yes, Becky, it is funny, isn’t it. He was clearly ‘A-list’. If he hadn’t gone for the truly ego massaging route, it wouldn’t be questioned. But now the efforts at balance could be seen as mere tokenism.
But can tokenism be seen as a legitimate starting point?
Actually Carole I prefer fundys that tell me flat out “your place is in the nursery’ than the more enlightened dudes that talk the talk but it’s really an old boys club – women are admitted as long as we are willing to shoot the theological smack and go along with their frat boy antics (not sure what the UK equivalent is here for boys will be boys behavior) – and most of us tend to operate differently. At least with the fundys I know where I stand.
What was inspiring about this panel is that it was the most inclusive panel on emerging church I have seen to date here in the US though with this guy leaving it’s now 3 chicks and 2 dudes.
I have no problems with women in church leadership in he same way that I don’t have problem with men in church leadership it’s all about God’s calling. Is the issue that God’s call on women isn’t being recognized or is the issue that God is not calling as many women?
Comment by marcus — September 13, 2008 @ 4:52 pm
Thank you for this 1 Jon. I have a real concern that emerging church and leadership is just going down the same was as main stream church- mostly men. Most of the emerging church groups I know that have someone leading them it is mostly men who are the leaders. Marcus I don’t believe for a moment that God is not not calling as many women. I do think it is mostly a male dominated area, where it is hard for women to be recognised, be encouraged. Another issue is where you do have women in leadership they rarely get invited to speak or contribute their ideas, why- because it is the men doing the inviting and they invite people within their networks- other men!- all very frustrating.
Comment by soniamain — September 13, 2008 @ 5:27 pm
Whenever i meet with other ministers in my area whether its denominational or inter-denominational there is a good representation of men and women (probably more in the inter-denominational meetings) but their points of view and their engagement with whatever we are doing is always accepted at the same level as anyone else.
How many women are there who feel called to ministry either in the institutionalised church or emerging church who are not following that call or able to realise that calling because their call is being squashed by a male hierarchical system?
Or could it be that women are not recognising the call due to the fact that for so long it has been the norm that it is a male dominated area?
Comment by marcus — September 13, 2008 @ 6:01 pm
I think Marcus has a good point in saying that women sometimes have trouble recognizing or valuing a gifting for leadership because of the way many of us have been socialized to think of ourselves and our roles. My church, like other emergent churches, professes to value women in leadership, and indeed, 3 of our 5 staff members (all part time) are women. However, we have struggled to find women who are interested and able to commit to our board of directors and other leadership roles, and I am constantly aware that all of the women, both on staff and on our board, are under 30, and without kids. Our problem seems to be that church leadership is not a priority for women with families, whether they work outside the home or not.
Comment by Heather — September 13, 2008 @ 6:25 pm
In the midst of the mature discussion about it, dare I throw in my flippancy?… yeah I do:
…are we counting the lady in the burkha and blue trouers?
the lady on the end can’t really be an emergent leader as her hair is not trendy cos it’s in a bun… she should be in Bod instead!
also…reminds me of this old cartoon on the emergent beard:
http://thecomplexchrist.typepad.com/the_complex_christ/2005/12/pognophilia_gro.html
I promise to try and be serious next time!
Comment by Sarah B — September 13, 2008 @ 7:08 pm
Perhaps the women are leading… but the guys aren’t recognising God’s leading in us?
perhaps the way leadership might be happening isn’t recognisable to people still hung up on ‘leader’ stereotypes
maybe, just maybe there are a multitude of “still small voices” that we need to learn to hear
but we’re still listening to the male voice leader, our ears are still attuned to old ways of leading…
maybe it’s not a lack of women leaders just that us followers are moving in emerging circles…
Comment by Caroline Too — September 13, 2008 @ 8:02 pm
“but their points of view and their engagement with whatever we are doing is always accepted at the same level as anyone else.” not being funny, but how do you know that?
“Perhaps the women are leading… but the guys aren’t recognising God’s leading in us?” hmmm, good point.
Comment by jonbirch — September 13, 2008 @ 9:04 pm
it’s both a relief and a heartbreak to look at my reactions to this cartoon.
the relief is admitting that most of the stuff that drives me nuts in mainstream church is alive and well, kicking and screaming, in emerging church
the heartbreak is that I’m just so tired of it all, i don’t want to go to another service where we ask ‘what are we about’ – but have no intention of asking ‘what do you want?, those of you who’ve turned up in support month after month.’
I’m tired of our western cultures addiction to ‘new stuff’
I’m tired of that feeling of being blackmailed into being at services, because it’s important – why?
the other day i dreamed of belonging to a church where there was a real commitment to physically demonstrate our love for each other, to share words of encouragement, to find a welcoming gaze meeting me when I got there instead of that pious head down hush – maybe it’s me, but oh for a giggle and a laugh and a hug
and please, if you find a church that has outlawed emotional blackmail, please can you give me the contact details – i really don’t care if it’s run exclusively by men, just as long as there’s a real sense of fun and freedom
Comment by subo — September 13, 2008 @ 9:13 pm
In response to your question Jon, I should have phrased the point more carefully and it should read “and” their points of view etc etc rather than “but” – I know this because a lot of the time it is the women vicars, ministers etc who give a lead with ideas and putting them into action and none of us male leaders feel threatened or patronising or even patronised! And if, as occasionally happens, someone does offer a patronising tone towards one of our female colleagues it is picked up on and dealt with. But I am aware that this is not case in other places.
Comment by marcus — September 13, 2008 @ 9:37 pm
Or could it be that women are not recognising the call due to the fact that for so long it has been the norm that it is a male dominated area? (Marcus)
I think it’s mainly this: women not recognizing their being called into a leadership position.
That said…
Perhaps the women are leading… but the guys aren’t recognising God’s leading in us? (Caroline Too)
That could definitely be true, too.
Comment by shelly — September 13, 2008 @ 10:28 pm
Taking myself as an example, people have identified me as a ‘leader’ – I always like John Maxwell’s definition being ’someone who influences’ – and as a result of my ability to influence have been asked to be in various roles of leadership, some of which I’ve accepted.
Whilst I’m male, in pscyhometric profiles I’m always stereotypically female – I’m empathetic, touchy-feely, want people to understand themselves etc.
I’ve also been fortunate to be part of a church which actively encourages female leadership.
Recently, I was chatting to an older Christian leader friend of mine about the fact that I could see myself leading a church but was unsure as to whether that was definitely my ‘calling’ – he said “I could see you in a number 2 position of leader, but not as the number 1 leader”
When I pressed him for what he meant, he described ‘#1 leaders’ as visionary, go-get-em types who come up with all the ideas and leave the implementation to others (my paraphrase) and ‘#2s’ were basically not #1s.
I told him I disagreed with him but it highlighted a serious issue I have with church leadership – that the church sees ‘leaders’ solely as people that envision and make decisions – essentially business executives – and we all know that men are far more likely to be that type of person.
I guess what I’m saying is that (1) because our western Church is so plugged into the Western cultural mindset, we misunderstand what leadership is in the first place, and (2) because we have a warped vision of what leadership is we are predisposed to picking blokes – or women who are more stereotypically-male than usual.
Comment by little — September 13, 2008 @ 11:51 pm
I think your spot on Little, I really do think the problem is more about our western mindset than about the gender of the people in leadership – because there’s so many examples of women leading with the same agenda, and others – like Brother Roger, where a man has bought a sense of belonging and of being valued to thousands of people
I also think its a real challenge to keep hold of God’s voice against so much labelling and discouragement that is part of our western mindset
Comment by subo — September 14, 2008 @ 12:17 am
On point Jon! This point needs to be driving home. We ought not settle on the idea that some suppose that it may take a generation for women to rise in leadership in this new form of the church.
Comment by Shelton Green — September 14, 2008 @ 4:16 am
“driven home”…ugh my lack of grammar and spelling skills get annoying.
Comment by Shelton Green — September 14, 2008 @ 4:17 am
What I find frustrating in the US is that I come from a denomination (Episcopal) that has ordained women legally since 1979 and the US presiding bishop is female. But when I go into US postevangelical emergent circles, there’s talk about including women but yet it’s still mostly PhD, white, males who are independent church planters. I sense they feel they are including women though they are still looking at this discussion through a very narrow academic lens that by it’s very nature is self-selecting. I’ve concluded that life is too short and I’m tired of gatherings where one talks the talk but is walking as though they have a case of the spiritual rickets.
Also Jon – all of your characters are white – that certainly is not the kingdom of God.
Comment by becky — September 14, 2008 @ 7:14 am
Heather (4) you raise a good point that often women in emerging church leadership are under 30 without children. I think your right, you say that in your experience at your church it is hard to find people to commit to the roles. Is this because emerging church is just making the same mistakes that main stream church has done. Expect too much of the leaders, only recognise and encourage a few peoples skills, and still expect women to do ‘the childcare’.
I belong to a small alt worship community, we don’t have 1 leader. There are a few of us who take responsibility for leading services, and that is almost equal mix of male and women, if anything slightly more women. We do have children who are a full part of our community and their mums and dads take equal responsibility for them. It doesn’t always work, but as a group we are committed to supporting one another. Like Subo I find it depressing that overall emerging church is still make the same mistakes as traditional church.
Comment by soniamain — September 14, 2008 @ 7:36 am
“why- because it is the men doing the inviting and they invite people within their networks- other men” – sonia’s right, i think
Subo – my chapel has no emotional blackmail at all. Result: the congregation is small but happy and they stay each others’ friends for life even after they move away. There are people, though, who have said out loud that it’s a mark of my inadequacies that I don’t fill the pews. Maybe that’s why people don’t think I’m a successful “leader” (whatever that means). You can’t have it both ways, that’s the problem.
Comment by maggi — September 14, 2008 @ 8:13 am
Maggi really interesting that you agree with my comment, I have always perceived you as 1 of those few women who have managed to be ‘accepted into the male emerging leaders club’!!, I have always respected your ability to have deep theological conversations and retain a grounding in being a woman and a mum!. Never had the chance to meet you but have read your blog and had a few emails with you over the years and seen your postings on other google type conversations!
Comment by soniamain — September 14, 2008 @ 9:10 am
Maggi, keep up the good work. It’s ladies like you who I look up to as a young leader. I talked about this exact point when I gave feedback to a leadership course, and all the teachers were men! Maybe the imbalance in the emerging leaders has something to do with the generation before. I think it will take a while before it will be an equal picture.
Though you should have been in my church this morning, plenty of women leaders there, and I would describe our church as matriarchal. Lots of stronger women. Though that’s not necessarily a good thing either. I understand a little bit more each day about why God created Adam and Eve, teamwork!!
Comment by Karen — September 14, 2008 @ 1:10 pm
Am not in an emerging church, so maybe, hey…whatever.
As an aside there’s Leaders and there’s leaders.
It seems to me that Big L Leaders, are the official people at the front or making the decisions; getting paid or who have an expense account.
Little L leaders seem to be the peple who continually bring other people along with them, they have a following, they are leading other people, they are the folk other people go to for the chats and the prayers.
Just a thought…..
Comment by gilly — September 14, 2008 @ 2:49 pm
Oh yes, not thinking straight: Little L laders are often women and men.
Big L leaders…often seem to be men.
( not in our’s though!)
Comment by gilly — September 14, 2008 @ 2:51 pm
is this a trick post???
it says there are 21 comments, but when I clicked on the link it says “21 comments>> No comments yet”
whadsup with that?
Comment by Laura — September 14, 2008 @ 6:17 pm
ok….weirdly…now that I’ve posted, I can see all the other posts and I look like a prat.
Comment by Laura — September 14, 2008 @ 6:17 pm
ok, not one to brag…but our leadership team in sanctus1 has more women on it than men…imho men in the emerging church need to practice what they preach with regard to the inclusion of women.
Comment by Ben Edson — September 14, 2008 @ 7:19 pm
do brag Ben!!, and not only do you have women on your leadership you also have services that positvely encourage children – hooray!- sanctuary have often felt more similar to sanctus1 than many other groups
Comment by soniamain — September 14, 2008 @ 8:03 pm
Probably someone has already said this, but women are in the primary leadership roles in the Kingdom. Women lead, moreso than men, in the way that Jesus did. Women are natural servants, in that we tend to give and serve without thinking about it. In fact, we have to be trained NOT to do it. Women don’t have to be told to wash feet, we have been doing so since the dawn of man. We change diapers on our children and on our parents when the time comes, we are there with words of mercy and shoulders for crying on, far more so than men. I could go on.
Let the men have their “recognised” leadership roles, while the women are involved in the heart’s work of the kingdom, actually loving people. That’s what Jesus did most. He rarely addressed large crowds and he never performed miracles in front of adoring throngs. He didn’t write books, or tell people the do’s and don’ts of how to meet together (other than to explain to those men that they needed to serve and love).
Perhaps the reason Jesus took male followers, as much as anything else, was because the message of the Kingdom is easier for the women to swallow and it was the men who needed the intensive instruction at how to heal, how to nurture, how to forgive, how to love, how to serve.
I wonder, if you were to look at God’s lineup of leaders, instead of at a cartoon, what, if anything, would be different….
Comment by Tyler Dawn — September 14, 2008 @ 8:20 pm
I ought to fix that statement “he never performed miracles in front of adoring throngs”
what I meant to say was that he never performed a miracle in front of adoring throngs for the sake of doing it in front of adoring throngs of people. Hope that makes sense….
Comment by Tyler Dawn — September 14, 2008 @ 8:22 pm
I was talking with a group of female youth workers about ‘The Sophia Network’ a network that supports and resources women in youth work. The Sophia Network recognizes that in an area that is often male dominated there is this need for women to be encouraged and it seek to be in this gap. The attitudes of women youth workers I spoe to were split on this matter though, some seeing it as a feminist movement as opposed to a support network. I think this attitude goes further than the sophia network though, that women in leadership can sometimes be viewed and criticised (most often by other women) as being feminists. The challanges that women can face in leadership can relate unfairly to gender,when the motivation regardless of gender is often the same, a life lived as a response to God.
Comment by Sara — September 14, 2008 @ 10:34 pm
some great comments and thoughts here. thank you.
Comment by jonbirch — September 14, 2008 @ 10:43 pm
ABSO,
You know, I have to agree with you on this one. It’s true. Fortunately, I’m one to represent the estrogen breed. Ha!
I have one thought of why women are not yet coming out of the institutional churches as quickly as men. Okay, again, THIS IS MY OPINION. I’m thinking that over the centuries and ESPECIALLY in the last 4-5 decades, the IC has increasingly become, well, feminized. The songs such, the system/structure IC’s take, the way pastors and leaders carry themselves, has become passive and even feminine in feeling.
After all, visit many IC’s today, and if one were to do a head-count, I bet you women would far outscore men.
I think, for awhile, men have been turned off by the efemininity IC’s have become. Thus, perhaps why more have grown disillusioned with it and found it easier to step away with something that really hasn’t related to them for awhile.
But, I KNOW that Father is working in the hearts of many women…and will continue to reveal to us why many congregations will not feed them what they are hungering for.
My thoughts anyway!
Blessings,
~Amy
http://amyiswalkinginthespirit.blogspot.com
Comment by Amy — September 15, 2008 @ 12:17 am
[...] SEPT 14 UPDATE: Turn out that ON THE VERY SAME DAY, the cartoon blog ASBO JESUS was running a post on the VERY SAME THEME. Check it out and check out the comments, too. Link here. [...]
Pingback by The Male Domination of the Christian Internet « Thinking Out Loud — September 15, 2008 @ 1:24 am
i agree with sonia and maggi – this is a huge issue and men need to realise that they need to intentionally think about inviting women into their networks/speaking etc, because it does not appear to be something that is naturally happening.
Comment by jody — September 15, 2008 @ 7:34 am
It’s a pity that they have to “think” about doing it at all. When it gets to that stage you’d have to be suspicious that you were asked or elected to massage the numbers. Leadership isn’t really the issue with me, Id just like to be listened to from time to time.
Comment by botticelliwoman — September 15, 2008 @ 7:49 am
I think the issue of invites goes deeper culturally than men need to think about inviting women. I think what needs to happen first is that men need to learn how to be friends with women without that being a perceived danger to either party. Networks and contacts are more strongly made through social time than formal time, invites are more likely to be given to someone you had an amazing chat with down the pub than someone you don’t know. If men and women cannot have meaningful interactions during social times for fear of unhealthy attachments/affairs/and the like, then men will never have the natural links with women which will make them even think of inviting them. It still seems that the women who get released are the ones married to the men doing the releasing, likely because they are friends and equals to each other and are seen for who they are.
I also agree with Tyler Dawn, so much of leadership can actually be personal kingdom building. Let whoever wants that have it, the glory here is all the reward personal kingdom builders will get. If we all (women and men) get on with discipling people (which is, after all, what Jesus tells us to do not ‘go and be leaders’) then it all doesn’t matter so much who gets the accolade of being ‘leader’.
Comment by kate — September 15, 2008 @ 9:00 am
Kate – “It still seems that the women who get released are the ones married to the men doing the releasing” – that’s a phenomenon very obvious in the New Churches (what used to be called House Churches). I left that movement several decades back, mostly because, being single, I got very bored not being allowed to anything at all except wait(yawn) for a husband… meantime some staggeringly untalented people were leading the music, and I could have played them off the stage. But couldn’t be anointed ’cause I didn’t have a man to “cover” my ministry. Bye Bye to that.
Comment by maggi — September 15, 2008 @ 10:13 am
Tyler Dawn – I have to ask – is Dawn your real surname? There’s not that many of us about…
Comment by maggi — September 15, 2008 @ 10:14 am
Maggi, it’s my middle name. I use it because otherwise, on forums and such, people thought I was a boy!
Comment by Tyler Dawn — September 15, 2008 @ 10:17 am
Ah! they should look at your photo, you are obviously not a boy!!
Comment by maggi — September 15, 2008 @ 10:27 am
Maggi – “Bye bye to that”, absolutely! Well done you!
Comment by kate — September 15, 2008 @ 10:45 am
re 28: Sara – thanks for talking to other youth workers about Sophia! Interesting that some people see it as a feminist movement and that that’s seen as a negative thing. I’m very happy to call myself a feminist but my understanding of the word is that it’s about the equality of men and women. I know it’s a word that carries a lot of baggage and it’s also a generational thing – younger women tend not to use the word. I do think it’s a shame if people have the wrong idea about the Sophia Network though – we definitely are about support.
Comment by Jen — September 15, 2008 @ 10:50 am
whenever women set up their own support network or training or anything else for that matter, there is always the danger that the half witted or ill informed will see some feminist agenda at work.
having just looked at a photo of tyler dawn on her blog i can also vouch for the fact that she is not a man… unless she’s the one with the beard… in which case it is a very fine beard tyler.
Comment by jonbirch — September 15, 2008 @ 11:08 am
“Bye bye to that”… how beautifully restrained of you maggi… i know what i was thinking and it was by no means as gracious!
Comment by jonbirch — September 15, 2008 @ 11:10 am
I’ve finally understood what the fuss was all about.
I thought that whenever a Christian utters the word “leader,” he meant “servant.” Why? Because of what Jesus has done on that meaningful night, I’ve come to define ‘leading’ as ’serving.’
Now I’ve finally understand that around here, whenever someone says “leader,” he/she meant “decision maker,” and “leadership” primarily means “decision making.”
Comment by zefi — September 15, 2008 @ 1:04 pm
Thanks Jon, and Maggi, that was right before I waxed this month. Yes, I am the butch one and the babe with me is my gay lover/episcopalian priest.
But seriously this harkens back to the time before I knew how to do avatars. People would see Tyler and assume I was a man and dang that made for some confusing stuff!
You would not believe the stuff I have inadvertently gotten away with by using just Tyler and “teaching” legalistic men. They loved me, praised me, and then when they found out I was a woman…. ooooh nelly! I never hid it, but I didn’t publicise it either.
Comment by Tyler Dawn — September 15, 2008 @ 3:55 pm
thanks for this one!
pastor sandy (female!)
Comment by pastor sandy — September 15, 2008 @ 4:12 pm
[...] Ein bekanntes Problem Montag, 15 September, 2008, 6:14 Gespeichert unter: Emergentes Zeugs ht: Jon Birch – Asbo Jesus Keine Kommentare bis jetzt Einen Kommentar schreiben RSS-Feed für Kommentare zu diesem [...]
Pingback by Ein bekanntes Problem « Pastor Sändy in the boonies — September 15, 2008 @ 4:14 pm
you’re welcome pastor sandy!
by the way… what are ‘the boonies’?
you got it zefi!.. sadly, all too often, ‘leader’ does not mean ’servant’. you are right, it should.
Comment by jonbirch — September 15, 2008 @ 11:56 pm
Maybe they are just holding true to scripture as they see it.
But havent we done this argument already.
I also think we put too much emphasis on ‘leading’ being the ‘big thing’.
Men and women are different that is a fact we are not the same. We both hold equal worth in the eyes of Father. But he made us different for a reason. I am not sure what the reason is mind you
Comment by beatthedrum — September 16, 2008 @ 9:01 am
Oh no! I can’t believe I actually missed an ASBO! Didn’t realise it was there and I’ve missed a great conversation!
I am such a fortunate woman. When I was just a baby in the 60s, women in their teens and 20s were getting to grips with the ‘permissive society’, career, education opportunities and all sorts. These have been my role models throughout life. Like all older sisters, they have made all the mistakes and cleared the way for their younger sisters. In the grand scheme (please don’t quote the early church for me here) women have not been at ministry in the church as we know it for very long. They will smooth the way and great things will happen in their wake. I am convinced of it.
Comment by Carole — September 16, 2008 @ 9:44 am
Some fantastic comments on this one. I particularly liked Kate’s comment at 33 – it seems to me that in the UK at least, there is still a general tendency to over-endow all male-female contact with the assumption of at least POTENTIAL sexual connotations, which can make ordinary friendships difficult to make and sustain. One effect of this, I think, is to render the opposite gender (from both sides) a bit of a mystery, which is never going to help us to appreciate each other’s different approaches. So as far as leadership is concerned, perhaps we DO tend to stick with what we know.
Zefi, wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could all adopt the servanthood approach to leadership! Unfortunately, here in the UK the model is still very much the hierarchical model used down the ages in other power institutions (business, government etc).:( On the plus side, there are many churches that do, at least, now actively encourage a strong lay involvement which helps us move away from the traditional (male) top-down structure.
Sonia (16), you raise some interesting points about the practical issues faced by many women who may wish to take on leadership roles. I’m glad Santuary are so committed to exploring how church might actually WORK if these things were taken into account.
Comment by janetp — September 16, 2008 @ 10:46 am
There’s a
missing from my comment above, so here it is!
Comment by janetp — September 16, 2008 @ 10:47 am
Carole, you are absolutely right. And I for one would like to say a big THANK YOU to all those fantastic women who have/are grafting so hard to make it easier for the rest of us. We owe them a lot.
Comment by janetp — September 16, 2008 @ 10:50 am
Beatthedrum (47): maybe the reason we keep coming back to similar discussions on this topic is because here on ASBO the women who feel restricted, even silenced or ignored by ‘the Church’ feel they can have a voice. That they can vent their frustrations, offer their opinions, challenge and be challenged in an environment where they will be listened to, respected, accepted by both men AND women.
Hurrah for ASBO!
Comment by janetp — September 16, 2008 @ 10:58 am
Did i say i didnt respect men AND women Janetp?
I was commenting on an earlier discussion about the roles of men and women in church and how it is formed by how you read scripture. Which was done to death in an earlier post.
Personally I find most western churches too female orientated.
Its strange that in the denominations who have embrassed female headship of the local church the numbers in general are falling with the churches becomeing as a denomination less effective at reaching the lost. I am speaking here of the denominations as a whole not individual churches of course.
I belong to a ‘complimentarian’ church for want of a better word. Where the ‘office’ of elder can only be held by a man, based on a reading of the NT. My ’stream’ have often been attacked for this stand. However I cannot relate to your “he women who feel restricted, even silenced or ignored by ‘the Church’ feel they can have a voice. That they can vent their frustrations, offer their opinions, challenge and be challenged in an environment where they will be listened to, respected, accepted by both men AND women.” tto any of the churches I have been in. The women had a voice were listened to respected and never silenced or restricted.
I would hate to be part of a church that did that.
Comment by beatthedrum — September 16, 2008 @ 11:43 am
Beatthedrum – to be fair, Janet didn’t infer that you did not respect men and women, that is your interpretation. In fact as you are a contributor here, she was saying just the opposite.
Comment by Carole — September 16, 2008 @ 11:55 am
I think that we can make assumptions about what people around us ‘think’ or ‘feel’. Unless we actually bother to ask them, we can never know for sure. Because we cannot relate to a particular problem or situation, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.
Comment by Carole — September 16, 2008 @ 11:58 am
I never did get this- in our (Charismatic) organisation, we used to constantly hear how leaders were being invited to lead after much prayer and ‘Seeking God’s will’… and then the same organisation got in a funk over how few women got into leadership. I understand their concerns, but the two statements seem to contradict each other: does it mean that God got it wrong, or they got it wrong, or God got it right but they needed to make up the numbers?
Alas I never found out, because after ‘Praying and listening to God’ the (Mixed) local leadership threw us out…
Comment by Andy in Germany — September 16, 2008 @ 12:37 pm
Thats the problem with this interweb thing you cannot see the peoples faces.
Comment by beatthedrum — September 16, 2008 @ 1:41 pm
great post Caroline – worth repeating for mulling over..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Perhaps the women are leading… but the guys aren’t recognising God’s leading in us?
perhaps the way leadership might be happening isn’t recognisable to people still hung up on ‘leader’ stereotypes
maybe, just maybe there are a multitude of “still small voices” that we need to learn to hear
but we’re still listening to the male voice leader, our ears are still attuned to old ways of leading…
maybe it’s not a lack of women leaders just that us followers are moving in emerging circles…
Comment by Caroline Too — September 13, 2008 @ 8:02 pm
Comment by marion — September 18, 2008 @ 10:03 am
just a point – after reading an earlier post…
are ‘complementarian chuches’ complimentarian [to women]? lol
Comment by marion — September 18, 2008 @ 10:07 am
Ask yourself? What is/was the gender of your Sunday School/childrens ministry leader, your prayer group leader, the person that encouraged you in your Christian walk, the missions and evangelism leader, the church secretary/administrator and so on…. In the church I grew up in they were 97% female. Yes the minister tends to be male but who is setting the tone of the church? Who is teaching young Christians the disciplines, who are the everyday examples of how to live, the mentors, the spiritual parents? Who is actually leading??
Comment by marcia — September 19, 2008 @ 7:05 am
Fascinating answers – I’m now dealing with a scenario in which a female friend of mine arranged an emerging panel for a major event that was 50/50 male female here in the states – no mean feat. And now one of the male emergent rock stars cancelled as he’s doing a solo gig. I am a bit surprised at myself at how much that stings. I thought I was used to the exclusionary aspect of emerging church but I guess I’m not.
Comment by becky — September 19, 2008 @ 7:09 am
Yes, Becky, it is funny, isn’t it. He was clearly ‘A-list’. If he hadn’t gone for the truly ego massaging route, it wouldn’t be questioned. But now the efforts at balance could be seen as mere tokenism.
But can tokenism be seen as a legitimate starting point?
Comment by Carole — September 19, 2008 @ 7:59 am
Actually Carole I prefer fundys that tell me flat out “your place is in the nursery’ than the more enlightened dudes that talk the talk but it’s really an old boys club – women are admitted as long as we are willing to shoot the theological smack and go along with their frat boy antics (not sure what the UK equivalent is here for boys will be boys behavior) – and most of us tend to operate differently. At least with the fundys I know where I stand.
What was inspiring about this panel is that it was the most inclusive panel on emerging church I have seen to date here in the US though with this guy leaving it’s now 3 chicks and 2 dudes.
Comment by becky — September 24, 2008 @ 1:19 am