I really don’t like that hymn. I really struggle with war imagery in ‘Christian music’, i.e. hymns, worship songs. War is so horrific- we should be singing against it, and against its horrors, not using them as imagery for Christ’s teachings. Did Jesus ever use battle/war imagery? I’d be really interested to know since maybe I’m getting het up about something Jesus did? Confused!
Comment by theseoldshades — October 13, 2008 @ 12:11 am
hi theseoldshades… glad to meet you!
i’m struggling to think of jesus ‘ever’ using war imagery. i’m pretty sure he didn’t… i’m sure he didn’t… he didn’t… he definitely didn’t… did he?.. no, he didn’t.
excuse the wrestling, i was just going through the gospels in my head (and finding many blank spots!)… but i’m sure he never used imagery of that kind.
Somewhere in the epistles one or the other of that apostles, Paul most likely, comments that we fight not against flesh and blood but against powers and principalities.
It would appear that a fair number of Christians have somehow gotten that backwards.
What, oh, yeah, now I remember, it’s the long lost Thirteenth Commandment:
Go ye forth locked and loaded unto all the nations to bring them to thine own ways . . .
ah yeh forrest… i remember it now!.. thanks for clearing that one up!
yes laura… it’s uniform! and everyone knows you can’t go to war without a uniform! …it’s what makes wars legal!.. the only thing that makes them legal so far as i can tell!
“Helmet of Salvation with movable visor
Breastplate of Righteousness with adjustable straps
“Shin Guards” of Peace that adjust to fit
Belt of Truth with adjustable Velcro closure
Spirit-of-the-Word Sword–the right size for little hands
Shield of Faith has easy-to-grip handle
Faith Parenting Guide with suggested activities and Scriptures”
Comment by Steve Lancaster — October 13, 2008 @ 7:34 am
(Image looks like a Storm Trooper)
Comment by Steve Lancaster — October 13, 2008 @ 7:36 am
my trusty spud gun was much better than this plastic sward and give away helmet, stealth and explosive caps offer real advantage
Nobody has yet answered Jon’s question about war imagery (#5). Jesus certainly used some conflict imagery, particularly the following:
Luke 12 vv 49, 51-2
“I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! …
Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three.”
Matthew 10 v 34
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”
Maybe these verses are the inspiration behind war-themed songs, although I don’t recall singing any of them recently. “Our God is a God of war” must be a strong contender for the worst one ever — has anyone ever sung that one?
Incidentally, I once worked as a volunteer on Iona, and the volunteer who had the responsibility for mopping the quad on one occasion used the mop to write “I have come to bring fire on the earth” all the way around the quad. I’m not quite sure what her motivation for doing this was, but fire can be seen in terms of purity, as well as destruction.
Jesus and warfare imagery… mmm…
The clash for me is that on the one hand warfare language or imagery is very much part of the gospel story and later letters, while simultaneously never being against flesh and blood. Warfare is waged but the enemy is never human.
So for example, what about the whole ‘kingdom of God’ language – isn’t that about a conflict between kingdoms won by a battle? Certainly I think that Jesus saw his life as a struggle with an enemy and that in the joining of his cause there would be inevitable causalities. I am also mindful of talk about binding the strong man, his naming Satan as the ‘prince of this world’ or the ‘ruler of this world’, his apocalyptic speeches, his confrontation with the devil at the beginning of his ministry, the casting out of ‘legion’, his calming of the waves and the sea, his talk of the church ’storming the gates of hell’. On one occasion he even said “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.” (Mt 10:34) All these could be seen as fitting a warfare category. John summaries all this when he says (1John 3:8) that he came to destroy the works of the evil one.
I think Jesus saw the cosmos as very much being under attack -and humans as if casualties of war living in a war zone – and that he had enlisted to fight and to win the battle once and for all. The thing that marks Jesus approach apart is that he didn’t fight people. He fought the real enemy. Indeed, I would interpret not just his life, but also his death as fitting exactly this kind of world view. A world under siege that required a warrior willing to risk his own life to rescue it.
And I think that the early Christians took this further, repeatedly tlaking about themselves as enlisted in the non-violent ‘army of God’.
It is not the warfare language or imagery that is wrong, for I am feeling the effects of the battle in my own life today. It is the idea that we are called to fight people and not the principalities and powers that lie behind the events we experience. We are all called to fight for justice and peace. It’s just that we use weapons of love and self sacrifice and not swords or guns or bombs.
quote:Rich It is not the warfare language or imagery that is wrong, for I am feeling the effects of the battle in my own life today. It is the idea that we are called to fight people and not the principalities and powers that lie behind the events we experience. We are all called to fight for justice and peace. It’s just that we use weapons of love and self sacrifice and not swords or guns or bombs.
amen Rich – great comment.
I really recommend ‘The Christian In Full Armour’ volumes 1, 2 and 3 [for those who are readers].
M.19-21 – Is it at all possible that when Jesus saw the cosmos as a world under seige he was just plain wrong? Is Jesus ever allowed to be wrong?
Comment by Steve Lancaster — October 13, 2008 @ 1:21 pm
mmm… what do you think Steve? I would say that it is of course possible that he was wrong. But then that would slightly change the way I currently see him. But of course, if he was wrong on this, you’d have to ask why. Was it a lack of intelligence or information on his part? Do you have a better world view to suggest?
For me, seeing the world as under siege fits my experience very well. It feels like that to me. A marvelous world, beautiful and complex is somehow weighed down by incredible suffering. How does it feel to you?
Luke 12 vv 49, 51-2
“I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! …
Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three.”
Heard that in certain countries, you get reported and persecuted even by your own family members if you’re a Christian.
Matthew 10 v 34
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”
Very true, but are those swords meant for us to wield, or yield to? Does that imply that we’re on the offensive side? Well, maybe, depending on the issue anyway.
If Jesus was wrong about something – anything – he ceases to be the perfect creator God in human form and therefore could not be our savior. I do, however beleive that the other Biblical writters could be wrong or have a misplaced focus, but The gospels were given to us as an example of the perfect life that we could all live. What was important to Jesus durring his life on earth should be important to us as well.
That being said, it is sometimes difficult to tell if Jesus is speaking about the physical or the spiritual. There is no doubt in my mind that Jesus believed and wanted us to believe that there was a spiritual battle going on, but the question is does this warefare imagery translate into the physical as well?
I would say “no” because of all the times that I hear Jesus teaching peace and bearing abuse without fighting back – just like he did on the cross. He talks about turning the other cheek and giving up your life for your friends. I cannot see this Jesus saying that going to war and killing people who we don’t agree with is ever right.
Check out Brian McLaren’s The Secret Message of Jesus.
But forever have Christians recieved our theology from our hymns and songs!
It’s only recently that we can choose to read books and the Bible for ourselves.
“The Son of God goes forth to war”….by Reginald Heber is one hymn I’m sure and certain glad we don’t sing anymore. For us…now…the imagery involved repulses us.
So what’s it all about?
How come the man who wrote ‘Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty’…also wrote ‘From Greenlands Icy Mountains’ with it’s dig at ‘heathens worshipping wood and stones’?
Maybe it’s in the timescale?
1812.
Everywhere countries were in tummult.
And somewhere along the way, maybe churches get their warm and fuzzies from out of date hymnsinging….and inbibe bad theology along the way?
Stanley Hauerwas (Or it might have been John Yoder) once wrote something like “The greatest contribution Christians could make to world peace is to stop killing each other in the name of their God” – not an exact quote I think, but pre the “war on terror” and worth thinking about.
Comment by Mark Bennet — October 13, 2008 @ 9:11 pm
Hey Stanley – excellent point!
Up in #25 Zefi said something about offensive Christians, perhaps these would be them?
Always consider the possibility that you might be wrong (but don’t ever make that an excuse for inactivity). Even if your theology says Jesus can’t ever be wrong, well, consider the possibility your theology is wrong.
But everything from physics to sociology to psychology to my own inward experience tells me that world under seige is about right. This beautiful existence is fighting off an horrific infection of evil, and the scarring goes deep.
Its worth thinking of gethsemane here. Peter and Jesus’ response to the arresting party sum up so much for me. Most great ‘victories’ lauded throughout history have involved wholesale slaughter. The Gospels claim Jesus pulled off the greatest victory in the history of ever without so much as the loss of a single ear. His kingdom offers asylum to all without exception and invades every sovreign territory on earth without a shot being fired.
But some do subjugate people in his name, and apparently one day every knee will bow… this is not as simple as it seems.
I’m surprised Martin Luther King hasn’t had a mention in this discussion yet.
Yes, really, really bad stuff happens, but I take that as a challenge to see another point of view. It can always be done. (No, I am not being naive – I know about genocide, Holocaust, abusive relationships.)
I see the life of Jesus as the great reboot – the reminder that everything is possible, a great big ‘Yes’ in Christ. Paul saying “everything is permissable, but not everything is beneficial”, then admitting that “to live is Christ and to die is gain” – so that even what looks unbeneficial, form a different perspective brings him more, not less.
If you’ve got that perspective, how can anything beseige you?
What can besiege you, temporarily, is the story you tell to give your life meaning. I am increasingly convinced (but could be wrong!) that at the same time that Jesus fulfils biblical narrative, he also subverts the whole thing. He proves himself wrong at the point he proves himself right – because he reveals that the Love that carries him into death takes him beyond it, right or wrong.
The way I see it, the new morality, which is also the oldest morality (very C.S.Lewis, this), is solely the outward-givingness of unbound, all-creating love. It blows everything else (excuse the military metaphor) off the field – nasty sprites and all!
I found Walter Wink really good on powers and principalities in his books. I’ve not read John Yoder or Stanley Hauerwas. But I feel sure that Jesus would say that the biggest limiting factor on Christians is the stories we tell about him (at the same time as smiling and admitting that it’s also the greatest release).
Comment by Steve Lancaster — October 15, 2008 @ 8:29 am
About Jesus ever being wrong – perhaps the question should be, “Would we give Him permission to be wrong, even if it turned out He wasn’t?”
Turn it on its head – would Jesus give us permission to be wrong?
Comment by Steve Lancaster — October 15, 2008 @ 8:33 am
Question: Matthew 8, The story of Jesus and the Centurion. The only time Jesus “marveled.”
Why did Jesus not rebuke the Centurion for being in the army?
And they can pry our antique replica guns and meat cleavers from our cold dead hands.
I mean, Amen, let us all put on the spiritual armour and face off this deadly foe, etc.
Comment by Timbo — October 12, 2008 @ 10:58 pm
I’ll bring my sword of the spirit………
Comment by Robb — October 12, 2008 @ 11:23 pm
what’s that old hymn, “Onward Christian soldiers, marching as to war, with the Cross of Jesus going on before . . .”
Comment by Forrest — October 12, 2008 @ 11:50 pm
I really don’t like that hymn. I really struggle with war imagery in ‘Christian music’, i.e. hymns, worship songs. War is so horrific- we should be singing against it, and against its horrors, not using them as imagery for Christ’s teachings. Did Jesus ever use battle/war imagery? I’d be really interested to know since maybe I’m getting het up about something Jesus did? Confused!
Comment by theseoldshades — October 13, 2008 @ 12:11 am
hi theseoldshades… glad to meet you!
i’m struggling to think of jesus ‘ever’ using war imagery. i’m pretty sure he didn’t… i’m sure he didn’t… he didn’t… he definitely didn’t… did he?.. no, he didn’t.
excuse the wrestling, i was just going through the gospels in my head (and finding many blank spots!)… but i’m sure he never used imagery of that kind.
Comment by jonbirch — October 13, 2008 @ 12:45 am
robb… i’ll raise your sword of the spirit with my horn of plenty! … or isn’t that one of ‘em?
Comment by jonbirch — October 13, 2008 @ 12:47 am
Nope, you should go with the horn resounding!!
Comment by Robb — October 13, 2008 @ 12:55 am
Somewhere in the epistles one or the other of that apostles, Paul most likely, comments that we fight not against flesh and blood but against powers and principalities.
It would appear that a fair number of Christians have somehow gotten that backwards.
Comment by Forrest — October 13, 2008 @ 1:07 am
robb… i will!
forrest… yup sadly, it would appear so!
Comment by jonbirch — October 13, 2008 @ 1:11 am
Ok..I’m in. But do I have to wear my hair in a bun????
Comment by Laura — October 13, 2008 @ 1:15 am
What, oh, yeah, now I remember, it’s the long lost Thirteenth Commandment:
Go ye forth locked and loaded unto all the nations to bring them to thine own ways . . .
Comment by Forrest — October 13, 2008 @ 1:20 am
ah yeh forrest… i remember it now!.. thanks for clearing that one up!
yes laura… it’s uniform! and everyone knows you can’t go to war without a uniform! …it’s what makes wars legal!.. the only thing that makes them legal so far as i can tell!
Comment by jonbirch — October 13, 2008 @ 1:27 am
You can buy the full armor of God – here’s but one example …
http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=504012&event=EFIN
Comment by becky — October 13, 2008 @ 3:04 am
that is a scary image
Comment by sonia — October 13, 2008 @ 6:37 am
Dear God, Becky!
“Helmet of Salvation with movable visor
Breastplate of Righteousness with adjustable straps
“Shin Guards” of Peace that adjust to fit
Belt of Truth with adjustable Velcro closure
Spirit-of-the-Word Sword–the right size for little hands
Shield of Faith has easy-to-grip handle
Faith Parenting Guide with suggested activities and Scriptures”
Comment by Steve Lancaster — October 13, 2008 @ 7:34 am
(Image looks like a Storm Trooper)
Comment by Steve Lancaster — October 13, 2008 @ 7:36 am
my trusty spud gun was much better than this plastic sward and give away helmet, stealth and explosive caps offer real advantage
Comment by subo — October 13, 2008 @ 8:45 am
Those who live by the gun shall die by the gun?
Comment by zefi — October 13, 2008 @ 12:01 pm
Nobody has yet answered Jon’s question about war imagery (#5). Jesus certainly used some conflict imagery, particularly the following:
Luke 12 vv 49, 51-2
“I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! …
Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three.”
Matthew 10 v 34
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”
Maybe these verses are the inspiration behind war-themed songs, although I don’t recall singing any of them recently. “Our God is a God of war” must be a strong contender for the worst one ever — has anyone ever sung that one?
Incidentally, I once worked as a volunteer on Iona, and the volunteer who had the responsibility for mopping the quad on one occasion used the mop to write “I have come to bring fire on the earth” all the way around the quad. I’m not quite sure what her motivation for doing this was, but fire can be seen in terms of purity, as well as destruction.
Comment by rebecca — October 13, 2008 @ 12:24 pm
Jesus and warfare imagery… mmm…
The clash for me is that on the one hand warfare language or imagery is very much part of the gospel story and later letters, while simultaneously never being against flesh and blood. Warfare is waged but the enemy is never human.
So for example, what about the whole ‘kingdom of God’ language – isn’t that about a conflict between kingdoms won by a battle? Certainly I think that Jesus saw his life as a struggle with an enemy and that in the joining of his cause there would be inevitable causalities. I am also mindful of talk about binding the strong man, his naming Satan as the ‘prince of this world’ or the ‘ruler of this world’, his apocalyptic speeches, his confrontation with the devil at the beginning of his ministry, the casting out of ‘legion’, his calming of the waves and the sea, his talk of the church ’storming the gates of hell’. On one occasion he even said “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.” (Mt 10:34) All these could be seen as fitting a warfare category. John summaries all this when he says (1John 3:8) that he came to destroy the works of the evil one.
I think Jesus saw the cosmos as very much being under attack -and humans as if casualties of war living in a war zone – and that he had enlisted to fight and to win the battle once and for all. The thing that marks Jesus approach apart is that he didn’t fight people. He fought the real enemy. Indeed, I would interpret not just his life, but also his death as fitting exactly this kind of world view. A world under siege that required a warrior willing to risk his own life to rescue it.
And I think that the early Christians took this further, repeatedly tlaking about themselves as enlisted in the non-violent ‘army of God’.
It is not the warfare language or imagery that is wrong, for I am feeling the effects of the battle in my own life today. It is the idea that we are called to fight people and not the principalities and powers that lie behind the events we experience. We are all called to fight for justice and peace. It’s just that we use weapons of love and self sacrifice and not swords or guns or bombs.
Comment by Rich — October 13, 2008 @ 12:45 pm
quote:Rich
It is not the warfare language or imagery that is wrong, for I am feeling the effects of the battle in my own life today. It is the idea that we are called to fight people and not the principalities and powers that lie behind the events we experience. We are all called to fight for justice and peace. It’s just that we use weapons of love and self sacrifice and not swords or guns or bombs.
amen Rich – great comment.
I really recommend ‘The Christian In Full Armour’ volumes 1, 2 and 3 [for those who are readers].
Comment by smudge — October 13, 2008 @ 12:55 pm
thank you richard… brilliant!
rebecca… is there really a hymn called ‘our god is a god of war’?… crumbs!
Comment by jonbirch — October 13, 2008 @ 1:16 pm
M.19-21 – Is it at all possible that when Jesus saw the cosmos as a world under seige he was just plain wrong? Is Jesus ever allowed to be wrong?
Comment by Steve Lancaster — October 13, 2008 @ 1:21 pm
mmm… what do you think Steve? I would say that it is of course possible that he was wrong. But then that would slightly change the way I currently see him. But of course, if he was wrong on this, you’d have to ask why. Was it a lack of intelligence or information on his part? Do you have a better world view to suggest?
For me, seeing the world as under siege fits my experience very well. It feels like that to me. A marvelous world, beautiful and complex is somehow weighed down by incredible suffering. How does it feel to you?
Comment by Rich — October 13, 2008 @ 2:59 pm
Luke 12 vv 49, 51-2
“I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! …
Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three.”
Heard that in certain countries, you get reported and persecuted even by your own family members if you’re a Christian.
Matthew 10 v 34
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”
Very true, but are those swords meant for us to wield, or yield to? Does that imply that we’re on the offensive side? Well, maybe, depending on the issue anyway.
Comment by zefi — October 13, 2008 @ 3:14 pm
To 23. Steve
If Jesus was wrong about something – anything – he ceases to be the perfect creator God in human form and therefore could not be our savior. I do, however beleive that the other Biblical writters could be wrong or have a misplaced focus, but The gospels were given to us as an example of the perfect life that we could all live. What was important to Jesus durring his life on earth should be important to us as well.
That being said, it is sometimes difficult to tell if Jesus is speaking about the physical or the spiritual. There is no doubt in my mind that Jesus believed and wanted us to believe that there was a spiritual battle going on, but the question is does this warefare imagery translate into the physical as well?
I would say “no” because of all the times that I hear Jesus teaching peace and bearing abuse without fighting back – just like he did on the cross. He talks about turning the other cheek and giving up your life for your friends. I cannot see this Jesus saying that going to war and killing people who we don’t agree with is ever right.
Check out Brian McLaren’s The Secret Message of Jesus.
Comment by M — October 13, 2008 @ 4:00 pm
But forever have Christians recieved our theology from our hymns and songs!
It’s only recently that we can choose to read books and the Bible for ourselves.
“The Son of God goes forth to war”….by Reginald Heber is one hymn I’m sure and certain glad we don’t sing anymore. For us…now…the imagery involved repulses us.
So what’s it all about?
How come the man who wrote ‘Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty’…also wrote ‘From Greenlands Icy Mountains’ with it’s dig at ‘heathens worshipping wood and stones’?
Maybe it’s in the timescale?
1812.
Everywhere countries were in tummult.
And somewhere along the way, maybe churches get their warm and fuzzies from out of date hymnsinging….and inbibe bad theology along the way?
Comment by gilly — October 13, 2008 @ 4:23 pm
I believe the Israelites fought one or two wars…
Comment by Andy — October 13, 2008 @ 4:38 pm
Stanley Hauerwas (Or it might have been John Yoder) once wrote something like “The greatest contribution Christians could make to world peace is to stop killing each other in the name of their God” – not an exact quote I think, but pre the “war on terror” and worth thinking about.
Comment by Mark Bennet — October 13, 2008 @ 9:11 pm
Hey Stanley – excellent point!
Up in #25 Zefi said something about offensive Christians, perhaps these would be them?
Comment by Forrest — October 13, 2008 @ 10:22 pm
“Shield of Faith has easy-to-grip handle”
I wish!
Always consider the possibility that you might be wrong (but don’t ever make that an excuse for inactivity). Even if your theology says Jesus can’t ever be wrong, well, consider the possibility your theology is wrong.
But everything from physics to sociology to psychology to my own inward experience tells me that world under seige is about right. This beautiful existence is fighting off an horrific infection of evil, and the scarring goes deep.
Its worth thinking of gethsemane here. Peter and Jesus’ response to the arresting party sum up so much for me. Most great ‘victories’ lauded throughout history have involved wholesale slaughter. The Gospels claim Jesus pulled off the greatest victory in the history of ever without so much as the loss of a single ear. His kingdom offers asylum to all without exception and invades every sovreign territory on earth without a shot being fired.
But some do subjugate people in his name, and apparently one day every knee will bow… this is not as simple as it seems.
I’m surprised Martin Luther King hasn’t had a mention in this discussion yet.
Comment by Linus — October 13, 2008 @ 10:48 pm
24 etc – Rich and others,
To me the world does not feel under seige.
Yes, really, really bad stuff happens, but I take that as a challenge to see another point of view. It can always be done. (No, I am not being naive – I know about genocide, Holocaust, abusive relationships.)
I see the life of Jesus as the great reboot – the reminder that everything is possible, a great big ‘Yes’ in Christ. Paul saying “everything is permissable, but not everything is beneficial”, then admitting that “to live is Christ and to die is gain” – so that even what looks unbeneficial, form a different perspective brings him more, not less.
If you’ve got that perspective, how can anything beseige you?
What can besiege you, temporarily, is the story you tell to give your life meaning. I am increasingly convinced (but could be wrong!) that at the same time that Jesus fulfils biblical narrative, he also subverts the whole thing. He proves himself wrong at the point he proves himself right – because he reveals that the Love that carries him into death takes him beyond it, right or wrong.
The way I see it, the new morality, which is also the oldest morality (very C.S.Lewis, this), is solely the outward-givingness of unbound, all-creating love. It blows everything else (excuse the military metaphor) off the field – nasty sprites and all!
I found Walter Wink really good on powers and principalities in his books. I’ve not read John Yoder or Stanley Hauerwas. But I feel sure that Jesus would say that the biggest limiting factor on Christians is the stories we tell about him (at the same time as smiling and admitting that it’s also the greatest release).
Comment by Steve Lancaster — October 15, 2008 @ 8:29 am
About Jesus ever being wrong – perhaps the question should be, “Would we give Him permission to be wrong, even if it turned out He wasn’t?”
Turn it on its head – would Jesus give us permission to be wrong?
Comment by Steve Lancaster — October 15, 2008 @ 8:33 am
Question: Matthew 8, The story of Jesus and the Centurion. The only time Jesus “marveled.”
Why did Jesus not rebuke the Centurion for being in the army?
Comment by Mike — October 23, 2008 @ 3:08 pm