Do I have to become a Republican if I’m an American then? Or do I just have to talk about how if people didn’t vote the way I wanted them to they are going to burn in hell forever??
Reminds me of one of my most hated lines in a modern worship song:’And for our inheritance, give us the lost’ How can you sing something like that? How can you bring anyone to a service where such a thing might be sung?
Pat- Do you hate it as much as ‘Like a rose, tramped on the ground…’?
This is one of the problems that made me leave the CU here, really close minded, pushing one position, can’t accept that not everyone leads perfect middle class, heterosexual, evangelic, sober, problem free lives. That might be a bit harsh, maybe I alienate people who aren’t as liberal as me?
Now I shall have to go and think about that, I do like things that make me thing- thanks Jon!
Comment by theseoldshades — November 12, 2008 @ 11:35 pm
or is this about how Christians are resident aliens in this world? you know, in and not of and all that? I think Stanley Hauerwas would argue that the very purpose of the church is to turn people into aliens — which is kinda like alienating people, right? :-!
I dunno…
and Pat, I’ve got to agree that a “Lost” person would feel mighty weird to be someone’s inheritance. but would a lost person ever identify his or herself that way so as to be offended? hmmm…
I always get a bit edgy when people start talking about being ‘resident aliens’ Joe – but I guess it depends what exactly is meant. If it means simply ‘different’ because we’re living in the light of the perspective of God’s Kingdom – then yes, I’d agree. If it’s part of a ‘we don’t belong to this world’ scenario – a sort of this life is just something we have to get through before we get onto ‘thhe real thing’ mentality – then I’m not so happy!
Maybe a ‘lost’ person wouldn’t self-identify if they heard that line/song – but my toes would curl on their behalf, and on behalf of a perspective that can view and couch things in such terms.
thesoldshades: It’s a close call between these two – I think they’re both pretty dire and my mouth would remain resolutely shut!
I was part of this really “evangelistic” focused college ministry back in the day. And I always felt kind of awkward about how “the others” were talked about in our private meetings (when we talked about the people we were going to help/save/convert). THEY HAD NO IDEA! And how ashamed I would have been at their finding out. It was gross.
Comment by The Millers — November 13, 2008 @ 12:38 am
Come on, singing the days of elijah is far worse…I mean its just plain weird…
Me and my friend often say ‘we feel like martians on planet christian’.
theseoldshades
your comment reminded me of CU when I was at uni in the dim distant past of the late 90’s! They practically kicked me out for being a woolly liberal – I say practically as I jumped ship before they could really point out that I wasn’t one of their kind!
Never mind – it left another night for drinking beer and we all know what jon thinks of the organic beer tent!
Recently I attended a service in which the sermon’s text seemed to be ‘alienate the lost’. The preacher had this model in his head of Christians (good) on the one side and other imperfect people on the other. The imperfections ranged in his paradigm from: vile criminals, drug addicts, alcoholics, people with eating disorders, people who self harm, and others. I was deeply offended by the implication that people with mental illness do know ‘truly know God’. And I was angered at his own self-satisfied failure to realise that all of us come before God full of imperfections, whether or not these imperfections would allow society to attach a label to us.
not wanting to add to your work load Jon but I have often thought how good it would be for you to do some cartoons depicting the various metaphors used in modern worship songs and traditional hymns, such as;
‘open the eyes of my heart’ what would they see? Blood, coronary blockages?
‘rose trampled like a thorn’ did Jesus look like a flower?
All things that I am sure would appear on planet christian in one form or another
LindyB… now that sounds annoying! i once heard a sermon on homosexuality of a similar ilk. it was so ignorant and abusive that my blood boiled… it didn’t help that robed vicar in question looked like the grim reaper (but i’ll not blame him for that).
yes Jon, this preacher included homosexuality in his long catalogue of “people who aren’t like *us*”. He is a young man, in his 20s, and a youth worker so I feel genuine concern for the young people in the church if this is his concept of Christianity: us (good) vs. them (bad). He got my anger levels rising as soon as he had mentioned eating disorders (according to him, eating disorders and self harm are manifestations of when people don’t have God at the centre of their lives and so become concerned with image) so I’m afraid I didn’t pay too much attention to the rest of the list of baddies
hang on here, as soon as you go poetic, then you’re going to confuse some folk…
jesus almsot seemed to make a virtue of it, don’t understand that bit of the new testament..
Comment by Caroline Too — November 13, 2008 @ 10:11 am
Days of Elijah for Jon. Gotta love the gear shift towards the end!
Is there not something a little ironic about us all regularly demanding artistic interpretation and impression and the frequent use of metaphor and then applying a literal interpretation to the lyrics of a song that does just that (Open the Eyes of my Heart Lord for example)? Aren’t we becoming like a Devil Sick of Sin*?
Hello folks! I share the not fitting into the uni CU boat as well! I was studying theology, so was automatically suspect, unless I was prepared to be very vocally a ‘CU’ type. I wasn’t.
I feel a bit sad when i hear people talk about ‘the lost,’ like they are a sub category of humanity. I’m inclined to think that the ‘love your neighbour’ bit applies to – well, everyone. Sometimes it can feel more like we love the Christians who are likeable (and moan about the ones who aren’t!) and treat everyone else like a project. I’m fairly certian that’s not what God had in mind.
I share the not fitting into the uni CU boat as well! I was studying theology, so was automatically suspect, unless I was prepared to be very vocally a ‘CU’ type. I wasn’t.
How have we all ended up congregating here on ASBO?
Dr Ruth saw me as a person. The People in the CU saw me as a project that she should dump, complete and undump. Needless to say, I am now a Christian but I still don’t feel very complete. Fortunately Dr Ruth didn’t see fit to dump me…
If you shut yourself in a windowless room
a) you can kid yourself it is worse to be outside than inside
b) it ceases to matter whether or not you are right, as your own perception takes over from reality
c) people outside will forget about you and keep on living in the real world
d) you will become irrelevant
Shut yourself in the same windowless room with a bunch of like-minded people and that state of irrelevance can be achieved much more quickly!
On an unrelated note, Microsoft has a new advertising campain for windows. “Life without walls”. Surely life without walls is the ultimate nightmare for windows as they become merely “a defunct pane of glass”…
It’s good to find other people who don’t fit into the CU mould!
Kayte- I couldn’t agree more. One of my main issues was that in CU everything was about ’saving people’- it seemed like it was all we ever prayed about and what all the outreach was geared towards. Nothing about social justice or just reaching out to people in love. A friend once told me about someone they knew who always described people as either ’saved’ or ‘unsaved’- she just used to use it like a name!
I realised it was time to jump ship when someone told me there was no point me being at uni because I wouldn’t need a degree to fulfil my God given role of motherhood and housework…
dadube- An extra night for beer is excellent especially since Wednesdays are my favourite night to go out in town and now I don’t have to feel guilty about missing CU!
Comment by theseoldshades — November 13, 2008 @ 12:42 pm
The CU at my university was similar to those already described. A more senior student explained to me how it worked — all the university Christian Unions were part of a national organisation, which was part of a global organisation, with a particular mandate for evangelism. I asked, “And where is God in this hierarchy?” — his response was “On the outside laughing”. It could have been worse — God could have been on the outside crying.
“Microsoft has a new advertising campain for windows. “Life without walls”. Surely life without walls is the ultimate nightmare for windows as they become merely “a defunct pane of glass”…”
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! you’re right… that’s a rubbish slogan! hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Just got home after a hard day and read these comments – made me roar! Thanks folks. “Days of Elijah” has always totally bemused me.
The only thing I would say regarding the word “lost” is that I think of when I was lost from God, in that I didn’t know him, and how blessed I feel that he found me. Is that ok, or still weird?
i’ve just checked out ‘these are the days of elijah’ lyrics in google… apparently these are the days of pretty much everyone according to the song. what a load of old monkey’s arse!
although as my son is called elijah, every time i’ve sung it since (erm about once), i had to smile thinking ‘too bloody right’ (if you have had young children then you’ll know what i’m talking about)
Just to share where my annoyance and violent tendencies spring from –
As you all know I am a centrist and stand primarily for unity. This means that most people say “oh it’s easy sitting on the fence”. Well no actually, it means that people beat you on both sides. ‘What is this bloke going on about’ is what you are probably thinking. ‘What does this have to do with the thread’?
This morning I had to endure one end of the church using derogatory language about the ordination of women. The old “Pork Pie Argument*” was employed in a derogatory manner to refer to women who are ordained. One end of the church decided to be completely outrageous and anger me by deriding some of my friends.
This afternoon, the polar opposite end of the church declared “God given role of motherhood and housework” to be equally derisive [albeit an anecdote about the past].
This is why I want to wander around with a stick with a nail in the end. Someone should!! Things would be much better if I had a stick with a nail in the end!!
*Used in synod in 1992. [I know it's the telegraph but it is the first realistic published reference that came up on google]
Jon @7: six and two-threes! They are equally bad but for different reasons.
Kim @36: I don’t think that’s weird at all. But it’s one thing to recognise ourselves as are lost or incomplete without God, another to lump people into a category (defined by us in a particular way!) of ‘the lost’. I guess the problem i have with these sorts of labels is that they turn people into objects (and implicitly, problems for us to solve!) – which they aren’t.
Recently had a chat with the co-director of music from one of our cathedrals – (Huge expensive places to run with even less congregation per square inch then usual) he said two things which struck me as odd –
1 ) “I really like a church to smell like a church”
I think he meant that all churches need incense or chip butties or something.
2) “The choirs is not for leading the worship, the people are irrelevant, its just because the boys enjoy them so much, its all about the singing”
I was at York. My wife was at York after I left. If she’d have met me in my York days, she says, she would have run a mile.
And yet, and yet… We had two wonderfully open and aware CU presidents who were able to rebuild some bridges with the Student Union. One, I know, is now ordained and active in the emerging church.
So curious – aside from CU scare stories (and the ones I tell about myself are the worse) what good stuff is going on in them?
Comment by Steve Lancaster — November 13, 2008 @ 8:31 pm
Robb @29…ha ha that’ll make me chuckle for a little while yet
With regards to the ‘lost’ – surely only God knows who’s really saved or not and the way I see it (and I think this sits with the story of the Bible) we’re all on a journey with God and most of the time it’s hard to say who’s ‘in’ and who’s ‘out’. We might be surprised who we meet in the new heavens or on the new earth (however that’s going to work!). I think we humans are a bit too black and white sometimes.
Robb- I hope I wasn’t deriding motherhood or doing housework; I would absolutely love to be a mother! (Though not just yet of course before my Mum panics) What annoyed me was that a) someone assumed that was all I could do/be as a woman and b) even if that was all I wanted to do, I couldn’t get an education first.
I really have so much respect for women who raise children and I really hope to be an amazing mother one day. But I love my degree too, and I will hopefully love my job. I just hate little gender boxes which say you can be this because you’re a girl, this because you’re a boy and that’s that.
Sorry, that was probably more ranty than I intended
Steve Lancaster- Although my experience with the CU here wasn’t great, they do do some excellent outreach to disadvantaged young people in the Welsh Valleys (I’m at Cardiff). People from CU go up to different Valley towns each night of the week and run kids’ clubs to give the children something to do other than hang around on the streets which is really cool.
Comment by theseoldshades — November 13, 2008 @ 10:51 pm
And I would love to be a grandma one day theseoldshades – just not yet either! I’m too busy being a student as well
theseoldshades – before I read the rest of your comment, your first statment makes me wonder what the hell I wrote………..
[don't take that the wrong way, I think I sometimes (those who have seen me a lot here would say frequently) say things the wrong way round!!]
I grew up in a world where I was “Told you/one/i can do anything!”
That wasn’t dependent upon sex/colour/height/age etc etc etc…
I work in a world where men and women are equal. My boss has usually been a woman. My friends are male and female. My wife is the one with the high flying career and qualifications. *Dr* Ruth is the person I am most proud to be associated with. She is the saint I hold aloft on many occasions [she hates it when I talk like this - and will kick my arse!!]. She shows me on a regular basis what it means to be Christ like. She shows forgiveness in ways I couldn’t possibly achieve. She was made in a mould that was broken!
And she has spent 7 years at uni to be called Doctor. And I am proud of that. And we have been married 10 years… and we don’t have kids… and I make dinner a lot….
So. Motherhood for me is a vital thing (I hope one day to convince my power hungry and over qualified and career driven feminist wife* ) that we could potentially have kids. Unfortunately you can’t ride a big twin harley whilst pregnant…..
So to be short – I was offended by what you were told by the CU. If that is the only role for women on I want to move to mars**!!
*Please tell me (if no one else, my wife) that you saw the tongue planted firmly in the cheek!!!!
**another flippin rider – I appreciate the role mothers have and don’t deride them either!!
PS I was part of CU, but I was a rebel who questioned everything. Oh, and sometimes I got caught using swear words. And I wasn’t middle class or from a Christian family. And I believed in spiritual gifts. And I had friends who did not believe in God that I didn’t invite to our ‘evangelism events’. And I hated Pride and Prejudice (still do). And I didn’t read my bible every morning. And I worked in a nightclub, and a pub that was in a building that was once a church building.
I’ve never really been much part of the CU, but the descriptions here ring bells with other (evanglistic, student) Christian circles from home. Also never quite fitted in, not from a neat unmessy middle class Christian home.
That said, brunettekoala I LOVE P&P. Also Anne of Green Gables. Hehe. Hope I will not be lynched from ASBO with these secrets revealed??
Mimou – Anne of Green Gables! loved that whole series…read all the books and watched the film adaptions.
I fear any street cred I may have once had here on asbo has now gone for admitting that though
[just to clarify the "i don't know what you're talking about" whatnot - "bursting out from the cookie cutter" - is it 'breaking out from middle USA's suberbia housewifedom?']
It’s interesting reading about CU experiences. You know one of the things I love most about youth is the energetic zeal that many young people possess. And one of the things that can get up my nose most about young people is the energetic zeal they possess. I suppose it is a question of focus. I remember being something of an angry young woman myself, but thinking back, I didn’t quite get the balance. Life has, I think (hope) knocked me into shape a bit. This is a possible reason that so many people are put off by CU. My daughter has never really bothered with CU – she found something instantly off-putting about the people. But she did, for a little while, attend a big popular student church in her uni town. They were very keen for her to drop her non-Christian boyfriend in favour of someone more suitable. Suffice it to say, she dropped the church rather than the boyfriend.
I went to university in my thirties and as far as I’m aware, there was only one guy on my course in the CU. He was always very nice and polite to me but everyone else on the course had him labelled as a bit of a ‘nob’, to say the least, always trying to convert others or engaging in heated debates on Christian issues. I think he would have done better if he had just enjoyed relating to others in very ordinary things.
I’m intrigued to think of Jesus making the apostles ‘fishers of men’. This, for me, lines itself up with his initial meeting with Peter when he’d been out with his boat and crew fishing but there was nothing to be found. Jesus asked them to put out their nets again and this time they could barely haul the catch in. Perhaps we can leave a bit more of the preparatory work to the Holy Spirit and just be there to hold a hand, provide a shoulder to cry on, a laugh or a listening ear. Or maybe I am not doing enough?
Just to clarify about CU – I do think they can be good for some people but, just like many churches, they can find it hard to accept people who don’t fit into the mold that they are used to.
I was at UKC, doing theolgy/rs and drama degree and many of my mates on the theology course were big into CU. But what made me REALLY mad was when I attended a meeting and they turned talk to Muslims and ending up praying for Muslims who were (and I quote) “worshipping the devil”. One of my biggest friends was a Muslim, and as a woolley liberal and pretty angry young woman – I flipped!
just thinking about the motherhood bit too while I’m at this – before having poppy I was career minded, love teaching RE and Drama, and being Head of Department as well as Head of House. Not to be big headed but I think I’m pretty good at it and I go beyond what is expected. Before I gave birth I said how much my career would still be the centre of my universe.
Boy was I wrong! Now I have Poppy I couldn’t care less for my job and really don’t want to go back in January. Its hard – I’ve just got the dream job for me this last year and now I want to give it up, but being a mother is now the best thing I’ve ever done in my life.
Can I juggle a child and a career? Who knows??
It all gets very confusing, doesn’t it Dadube. I found I needed to accept that I either do one thing reasonably well and the other poorly or learn to accept that you can do everything but not particularly well! It becomes a question of compromise. I went from a fairly well paid job with prospects in IT to stay at home mum/student. Whilst the possibility of a big career has been well and truly sacrificed, I would not give up the memories and experiences of being there for my kids when they were younger. The relaxed little chats on the way home from school were priceless. But that was my personal decision and not necessarily right for everyone. My advice is just to really enjoy Poppy while you have this precious time with no work distractions. At least you are established in a job where you will be able to make the most of her school holidays.
Robb @49 – you’re right, I will kick your ass! People are gonna have some weird preconceptions about me now and will be sadly disappointed, I fear!
Regarding the song with the offending lyric (comment #3), I always thought that we were asking for the inheritance which was lost (through sin), rather than ‘lost souls’. Maybe I misunderstood but I prefer this interpretation!
Our Uni CU was pretty awful. Their biggest mistake was meeting on a friday night, I mean, come on, which students are going to choose CU over a friday night out?
Robb- I did understand you and I now find myself in complete agreement with you!
Mimou- I love P and P and Anne of Green Gables too! Even though I sometimes find my feminist side at odds with some of the ideas
Comment by theseoldshades — November 14, 2008 @ 5:32 pm
That should be mis-understand…
this is what getting up 8am for a lecture on Hermeneutics and Phenomenology does to my poor student brain!
Comment by theseoldshades — November 14, 2008 @ 5:34 pm
There are sometimes, you know, when I don’t feel that I fit in ASBO conversations…
you see I enjoyed CU days, I grew in them… I’m not sure that I’d still be totally at ease signing the declaration of faith but that would be more about the words than the beliefs.. but I enjoyed and benefitted from the CU, running missions, getting involved in prayer meetings, reading the bible with others… trying to work out what it meant…
So, I’m probably the weird one on the ASBO site… feel a bit excluded actually, fearful about what all you other ‘right on’ ASBOers might think of me “Silly old biddy”
It’s funny how when we berate others for berating others we can become just like those others.
(yes, honestly that sentence did make sense
Comment by Caroline Too — November 14, 2008 @ 10:36 pm
Oh golly, followed the link to the days of elijah… good grief… somehow the stringing together of bible-ish phrases does not make a song bibilical.
outrageous
Comment by Caroline Too — November 14, 2008 @ 10:38 pm
Caroline Too – I am still lamenting the loss of the post that took 1/2 an hour to wright detailing the joix I have had and the blessings that have been given to me by the CU. I have had very bad experiences within the CU and very good ones……
….but the same can be said of “The Church” not just the CU. Whilst not directly, the CU had a very instrumental role in my own ‘coming to faith’.
[I also suspect that thinking "silly old biddy" precludes one from being "right on"]
caroline too. i notice you also commented on jonny baker’s ‘not fitting in’ post (or some such title). i’m a misfit in that i have had very little experience of c.u.’s. i spoke at one years ago… i remember it… it was about serving. i remember i had a bowl of water and a towel. i asked if i could wash someone’s feet. the problem is, the one (brave) girl who volunteered was just a tad pretty and sexy and i remember finding the whole thing a bit of a turn on. i don’t think it showed and i think i made the point i was wanting to… but i still remember it to this day. guilt and pleasure. even in an act of reverence and servanthood i’m a mixed bag of nuts, bolts and loose screws.
so there you are… more of a confession than a comment.
This is the problem with serving in any capacity within our communities – we are human. [I'm not saying we are all aroused BTW].
We stand there and do our best and yet we are flawed. We get ‘aroused’ or amused or bemused or confused like everyone else who is there. The question “WTF just happened” is probably the most frequent ministerial thought!!
caroline too – please don’t feel excluded! not all CU’s are bad. I belonged to one at school that i loved and grew immensly in. In fact the dear old jon birch came on one of our weekends to hell hall – thats the affectionate name people gave it, i have no idea what it was really called now – as part of the group ho were leading it for us.
Awwwww i’ getting misty eyed at those days now and remembering how gorgeous jon was to me as i was such a screw up and angry sad depressed bleugh!
jon – love ou babe, miss you. there are times i kow i live in the wrong country too..
sorry for typos btw – feeding and tying one handed with my left hand – i don’t recommend it!
Caroline Too, how awful that you should feel on the edge, here! Sorry if we have made you feel that way. The thing is, people can only ever speak as they find, and they usually only have one experience of CU to go on. I suspect that many student groups/societies (not just CUs) are badly run, after all, they are generally inexperienced people trying to gain experience (often the megalomaniac attention seeker types!). One of the premier league people in my life had a wonderful CU experience, and I trust her judgement implicitly. She, like you, was one of the fortunate ones.
Jon, what a fabulous confession! That had me chuckling! Feet are very intimate things and I always struggle a bit with the footwashing, too. Your comment was so wonderfully human and beautifully honest and precisely why I love you to bits…the humanity and honesty, not the er…you know…
haha! just saying it as it is really.
i think one of the greatest things that some (not all) comedians do in our culture is a kind of public confession. sometimes prophetic, they mirror our experiences by sharing theres… it all gives us permission to be human, flawed and a bit more bodily function oriented than we mostly care to admit.
bottom line is… you can be engaged in the most pressing spiritual matters, attending to the most godly and righteous cause, but you will (at some point) be driven to take a leak or have a dump… that’s the way it is. we are human, flesh and blood, from the soil.
Jon (#72) that was a different and healthy ‘not fitting in’ that I
mentioned on the JonnyB site…
and Carole, Dadube… don’t feel too bad. I was, perhaps, being a
little poetic there to make a point. I feel very much part of
this funny-old ASBO conversation. But, just sometimes, I feel that
we tend to line up the evangelly baby ‘ducks’ to have a pop at
them.
‘THEY’ are judgemental seems to be a common thread of some of our
conversations and when that happens, I’m just a little edgy
that we may be culpable as well…
Comment by Caroline Too — November 15, 2008 @ 5:26 pm
Re: CUs, the one at York was there for me when I was first starting to piece together a sense of my spirituality. It was a family – with lots of answers (too many, perhaps?) but also friendship and gathering and purpose and questioning. It was, in every good sense of the word, Church – though it would probably have thrown up its hands at the thought. But it was more immediate than any of the sunday manifestations of church that I attended, less hierarchical, because it deliberately avoided the ‘Church’ label, curiously open, because it embraced the diversity of evangelicalism and even had a place for fringe members, and risk-taking, because its ‘congregation’ changed totally every three or four years.
Which makes me wonder, given that it shares much of this with the emerging church conversation, and given that many of us who ‘don’t fit’ the old church models are educated in sixth form colleges and universities and are both former CU members, whether the CU has had quite a large, though perhaps unwitting, influence over the way Church is changing.
Just a thought…
Comment by Steve Lancaster — November 15, 2008 @ 7:10 pm
yes… caroline too, agreed. actually i found that jonny’s post and some of the comments (including yours) to be very helpful.
on the subject of finger pointing and judgementalism, maybe i’m the worst… hmmmmm.
I’m just back from a conference – which was good, but some of the main meeting stuff was a bit like the aliens on planet christian cartoon – had to stifle giggles (i’m so unholy)
Robb – Basically yes, here is my little rant about it from last year here…
Totally understand that people like the BBC Drama, Mark Darcy and all that stuff. that’s ok. I just get irritated when people are shocked that I don’t. And it seems that every woman I know who goes to church does except me.
Oh no Caroline!! I’m sorry for possibly being partly to blame for making you feel that way with my ranting.
But actually, you spoke up when you felt you were different from everybody else.
That takes guts.
And for that I most definitely salute you/high five you…(I don’t know…something…I’m not that hip/cool to choose suitable response)
Also I feel I must confess after my mini-rant above, that I too like Anne of Green Gables. I think I even had ‘Anne Shirley’ as one of my imaginary school pupils when I was wee. (I wanted to be a teacher – I took ‘playing school’ a bit too far by turning my Dad’s garage into a school with ‘jotters’ and everything) I got bored halfway through the first of the ’sequels’ though. I think that’s the only ‘classic’ I like.
Also, CU has a place in terms of bringing a community together to encourage one another and so on. I know CU did help me in some ways, but destroyed my self esteem in others making me very aware of hierachies, class issues, family background that meant nothing in my church.
Maybe I’m not a very ASBO person, because I love my old church. They were my family – a mixture of all sorts of different people who love Jesus and want to share that with the people in their communities.
brunettekoala… don’t say you’re not an asbo person cos you love people. that’s my only reason for doing asbo these days, because i love people. it may be a funny way of showing it on my part.
as i said on another post a moment ago, from what i can tell, the asbo readership has quite a breadth of background… i just feel utterly, humbled, bewildered and grateful that people are happy talking and listening here. it is truly an unexpected thing in my life.
Phew. Thank goodness for that. I was going to have to do something of the secular ASBO sort like, pull off a car indicator or let someone’s tyres down….all in the spirit of rebellion…
Do I have to become a Republican if I’m an American then?
Or do I just have to talk about how if people didn’t vote the way I wanted them to they are going to burn in hell forever??
Just curious about the membership criteria.
Comment by Laura — November 12, 2008 @ 10:36 pm
haha!
Comment by jonbirch — November 12, 2008 @ 10:50 pm
Reminds me of one of my most hated lines in a modern worship song:’And for our inheritance, give us the lost’ How can you sing something like that? How can you bring anyone to a service where such a thing might be sung?
Comment by Pat — November 12, 2008 @ 11:18 pm
Pat- Do you hate it as much as ‘Like a rose, tramped on the ground…’?
This is one of the problems that made me leave the CU here, really close minded, pushing one position, can’t accept that not everyone leads perfect middle class, heterosexual, evangelic, sober, problem free lives. That might be a bit harsh, maybe I alienate people who aren’t as liberal as me?
Now I shall have to go and think about that, I do like things that make me thing- thanks Jon!
Comment by theseoldshades — November 12, 2008 @ 11:35 pm
or is this about how Christians are resident aliens in this world? you know, in and not of and all that? I think Stanley Hauerwas would argue that the very purpose of the church is to turn people into aliens — which is kinda like alienating people, right? :-!
I dunno…
and Pat, I’ve got to agree that a “Lost” person would feel mighty weird to be someone’s inheritance. but would a lost person ever identify his or herself that way so as to be offended? hmmm…
now I’m lost.
Comment by Joe — November 12, 2008 @ 11:36 pm
I always get a bit edgy when people start talking about being ‘resident aliens’ Joe – but I guess it depends what exactly is meant. If it means simply ‘different’ because we’re living in the light of the perspective of God’s Kingdom – then yes, I’d agree. If it’s part of a ‘we don’t belong to this world’ scenario – a sort of this life is just something we have to get through before we get onto ‘thhe real thing’ mentality – then I’m not so happy!
Maybe a ‘lost’ person wouldn’t self-identify if they heard that line/song – but my toes would curl on their behalf, and on behalf of a perspective that can view and couch things in such terms.
thesoldshades: It’s a close call between these two – I think they’re both pretty dire and my mouth would remain resolutely shut!
Comment by Pat — November 12, 2008 @ 11:55 pm
yeh, but pat… if you could only choose one of the two as the worst… which would it be? we need to know.
Comment by jonbirch — November 13, 2008 @ 12:10 am
I was part of this really “evangelistic” focused college ministry back in the day. And I always felt kind of awkward about how “the others” were talked about in our private meetings (when we talked about the people we were going to help/save/convert). THEY HAD NO IDEA! And how ashamed I would have been at their finding out. It was gross.
Comment by The Millers — November 13, 2008 @ 12:38 am
Come on, singing the days of elijah is far worse…I mean its just plain weird…
Me and my friend often say ‘we feel like martians on planet christian’.
Comment by brunettekoala — November 13, 2008 @ 1:17 am
oooh…there’s a thought…Jon would you be able to do a cartoon with what planet christian looks like to the lost aliens???
(though as a supporter of Hearts FC I request that the aliens not be green…?)
Comment by brunettekoala — November 13, 2008 @ 1:18 am
i’ll see what i can do bk… btw. what is ‘the days of elijah’? any lyrics you’d like to share?
Comment by jonbirch — November 13, 2008 @ 3:26 am
[...] http://asbojesus.wordpress.com/2008/11/12/587/ [...]
Pingback by Funny! « Prayers-Poems-Wonderings — November 13, 2008 @ 3:57 am
theseoldshades
your comment reminded me of CU when I was at uni in the dim distant past of the late 90’s! They practically kicked me out for being a woolly liberal – I say practically as I jumped ship before they could really point out that I wasn’t one of their kind!
Never mind – it left another night for drinking beer and we all know what jon thinks of the organic beer tent!
Comment by dadube — November 13, 2008 @ 4:46 am
Estoy Perdido!
Comment by dennis — November 13, 2008 @ 7:29 am
Recently I attended a service in which the sermon’s text seemed to be ‘alienate the lost’. The preacher had this model in his head of Christians (good) on the one side and other imperfect people on the other. The imperfections ranged in his paradigm from: vile criminals, drug addicts, alcoholics, people with eating disorders, people who self harm, and others. I was deeply offended by the implication that people with mental illness do know ‘truly know God’. And I was angered at his own self-satisfied failure to realise that all of us come before God full of imperfections, whether or not these imperfections would allow society to attach a label to us.
Comment by LindyB — November 13, 2008 @ 9:08 am
not wanting to add to your work load Jon but I have often thought how good it would be for you to do some cartoons depicting the various metaphors used in modern worship songs and traditional hymns, such as;
‘open the eyes of my heart’ what would they see? Blood, coronary blockages?
‘rose trampled like a thorn’ did Jesus look like a flower?
All things that I am sure would appear on planet christian in one form or another
Comment by marcus — November 13, 2008 @ 9:11 am
LindyB… now that sounds annoying! i once heard a sermon on homosexuality of a similar ilk. it was so ignorant and abusive that my blood boiled… it didn’t help that robed vicar in question looked like the grim reaper (but i’ll not blame him for that).
Comment by jonbirch — November 13, 2008 @ 9:47 am
interesting idea marcus.
Comment by jonbirch — November 13, 2008 @ 9:47 am
yes Jon, this preacher included homosexuality in his long catalogue of “people who aren’t like *us*”. He is a young man, in his 20s, and a youth worker so I feel genuine concern for the young people in the church if this is his concept of Christianity: us (good) vs. them (bad). He got my anger levels rising as soon as he had mentioned eating disorders (according to him, eating disorders and self harm are manifestations of when people don’t have God at the centre of their lives and so become concerned with image) so I’m afraid I didn’t pay too much attention to the rest of the list of baddies
Comment by LindyB — November 13, 2008 @ 9:58 am
hang on here, as soon as you go poetic, then you’re going to confuse some folk…
jesus almsot seemed to make a virtue of it, don’t understand that bit of the new testament..
Comment by Caroline Too — November 13, 2008 @ 10:11 am
Days of Elijah for Jon. Gotta love the gear shift towards the end!
Is there not something a little ironic about us all regularly demanding artistic interpretation and impression and the frequent use of metaphor and then applying a literal interpretation to the lyrics of a song that does just that (Open the Eyes of my Heart Lord for example)? Aren’t we becoming like a Devil Sick of Sin*?
*Venusians sick of venus?
Comment by Robb — November 13, 2008 @ 10:23 am
Sorry, I cross posted with Caroline Too – what she said!
Comment by Robb — November 13, 2008 @ 10:24 am
Hello folks! I share the not fitting into the uni CU boat as well! I was studying theology, so was automatically suspect, unless I was prepared to be very vocally a ‘CU’ type. I wasn’t.
I feel a bit sad when i hear people talk about ‘the lost,’ like they are a sub category of humanity. I’m inclined to think that the ‘love your neighbour’ bit applies to – well, everyone. Sometimes it can feel more like we love the Christians who are likeable (and moan about the ones who aren’t!) and treat everyone else like a project. I’m fairly certian that’s not what God had in mind.
Love is hard work.
Don’t know how God manages it sometimes!
Comment by Kayte — November 13, 2008 @ 10:58 am
I share the not fitting into the uni CU boat as well! I was studying theology, so was automatically suspect, unless I was prepared to be very vocally a ‘CU’ type. I wasn’t.
How have we all ended up congregating here on ASBO?
Dr Ruth saw me as a person. The People in the CU saw me as a project that she should dump, complete and undump. Needless to say, I am now a Christian but I still don’t feel very complete. Fortunately Dr Ruth didn’t see fit to dump me…
Love is hard work.
Don’t know how God manages it sometimes!
Comment by Robb — November 13, 2008 @ 11:03 am
Hmmmmm. The case of missing ““
Comment by Robb — November 13, 2008 @ 11:04 am
I don’t mind poetic, but the song isn’t poetic as much as it is trying to cram as many bible stories as possible into one song…
There’s something like an average of 1.9 biblical references per line of the song…?
Anyway, it was a total side track, everyone has different songs they like/dislike.
Comment by brunettekoala — November 13, 2008 @ 11:05 am
If you shut yourself in a windowless room
a) you can kid yourself it is worse to be outside than inside
b) it ceases to matter whether or not you are right, as your own perception takes over from reality
c) people outside will forget about you and keep on living in the real world
d) you will become irrelevant
Shut yourself in the same windowless room with a bunch of like-minded people and that state of irrelevance can be achieved much more quickly!
Comment by JF — November 13, 2008 @ 11:07 am
I thought Open the Eyes of My Heart Lord had approx a 0:1 ratio bible stories to song.
Comment by Robb — November 13, 2008 @ 11:28 am
If you shut yourself in a windowless room
Totally agree.
On an unrelated note, Microsoft has a new advertising campain for windows. “Life without walls”. Surely life without walls is the ultimate nightmare for windows as they become merely “a defunct pane of glass”…
Comment by Robb — November 13, 2008 @ 11:30 am
It’s good to find other people who don’t fit into the CU mould!
Kayte- I couldn’t agree more. One of my main issues was that in CU everything was about ’saving people’- it seemed like it was all we ever prayed about and what all the outreach was geared towards. Nothing about social justice or just reaching out to people in love. A friend once told me about someone they knew who always described people as either ’saved’ or ‘unsaved’- she just used to use it like a name!
I realised it was time to jump ship when someone told me there was no point me being at uni because I wouldn’t need a degree to fulfil my God given role of motherhood and housework…
dadube- An extra night for beer is excellent especially since Wednesdays are my favourite night to go out in town and now I don’t have to feel guilty about missing CU!
Comment by theseoldshades — November 13, 2008 @ 12:42 pm
where are the Blues Brothers when you need them?
Comment by subo — November 13, 2008 @ 12:50 pm
I wouldn’t need a degree to fulfil my God given role of motherhood and housework…
I find that a smack around the head with piece of wood with a nail in the end often offends. You should try it!
Comment by Robb — November 13, 2008 @ 1:10 pm
In fact, join the facebook group…
Comment by Robb — November 13, 2008 @ 1:13 pm
The CU at my university was similar to those already described. A more senior student explained to me how it worked — all the university Christian Unions were part of a national organisation, which was part of a global organisation, with a particular mandate for evangelism. I asked, “And where is God in this hierarchy?” — his response was “On the outside laughing”. It could have been worse — God could have been on the outside crying.
Going back to an earlier point, the references to Planet Christian make me think of the planet Jessica in the following article: http://www.surefish.co.uk/faith/features/231008_philip_p_hallard_22.htm
Planet Christian, wherever it is, sounds like a good subject for a cartoon, but I think I prefer to live in the real world.
Comment by rebecca — November 13, 2008 @ 1:19 pm
“Microsoft has a new advertising campain for windows. “Life without walls”. Surely life without walls is the ultimate nightmare for windows as they become merely “a defunct pane of glass”…”
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! you’re right… that’s a rubbish slogan! hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Comment by jonbirch — November 13, 2008 @ 1:26 pm
Just got home after a hard day and read these comments – made me roar! Thanks folks. “Days of Elijah” has always totally bemused me.
The only thing I would say regarding the word “lost” is that I think of when I was lost from God, in that I didn’t know him, and how blessed I feel that he found me. Is that ok, or still weird?
Comment by Kim — November 13, 2008 @ 3:24 pm
i’ve just checked out ‘these are the days of elijah’ lyrics in google… apparently these are the days of pretty much everyone according to the song. what a load of old monkey’s arse!
Comment by jonbirch — November 13, 2008 @ 3:34 pm
although as my son is called elijah, every time i’ve sung it since (erm about once), i had to smile thinking ‘too bloody right’ (if you have had young children then you’ll know what i’m talking about)
Comment by jody — November 13, 2008 @ 5:36 pm
Just to share where my annoyance and violent tendencies spring from –
As you all know I am a centrist and stand primarily for unity. This means that most people say “oh it’s easy sitting on the fence”. Well no actually, it means that people beat you on both sides. ‘What is this bloke going on about’ is what you are probably thinking. ‘What does this have to do with the thread’?
This morning I had to endure one end of the church using derogatory language about the ordination of women. The old “Pork Pie Argument*” was employed in a derogatory manner to refer to women who are ordained. One end of the church decided to be completely outrageous and anger me by deriding some of my friends.
This afternoon, the polar opposite end of the church declared “God given role of motherhood and housework” to be equally derisive [albeit an anecdote about the past].
This is why I want to wander around with a stick with a nail in the end. Someone should!! Things would be much better if I had a stick with a nail in the end!!
*Used in synod in 1992. [I know it's the telegraph but it is the first realistic published reference that came up on google]
Comment by Robb — November 13, 2008 @ 5:51 pm
Jon @7: six and two-threes! They are equally bad but for different reasons.
Kim @36: I don’t think that’s weird at all. But it’s one thing to recognise ourselves as are lost or incomplete without God, another to lump people into a category (defined by us in a particular way!) of ‘the lost’. I guess the problem i have with these sorts of labels is that they turn people into objects (and implicitly, problems for us to solve!) – which they aren’t.
Comment by Pat — November 13, 2008 @ 6:15 pm
Recently had a chat with the co-director of music from one of our cathedrals – (Huge expensive places to run with even less congregation per square inch then usual) he said two things which struck me as odd –
1 ) “I really like a church to smell like a church”
I think he meant that all churches need incense or chip butties or something.
2) “The choirs is not for leading the worship, the people are irrelevant, its just because the boys enjoy them so much, its all about the singing”
Aaaarrrggghhhh.
Amazing just how in touch people are………
Comment by drew — November 13, 2008 @ 6:24 pm
Would you like to borrow my stick with a nail in it Drew?
Comment by Robb — November 13, 2008 @ 8:10 pm
LindyB (in regards to post no. 15) what exactly are you feelings on me lynching said vicar?
Comment by émie — November 13, 2008 @ 8:29 pm
Ahh, CU days!
I was at York. My wife was at York after I left. If she’d have met me in my York days, she says, she would have run a mile.
And yet, and yet… We had two wonderfully open and aware CU presidents who were able to rebuild some bridges with the Student Union. One, I know, is now ordained and active in the emerging church.
So curious – aside from CU scare stories (and the ones I tell about myself are the worse) what good stuff is going on in them?
Comment by Steve Lancaster — November 13, 2008 @ 8:31 pm
Robb @29…ha ha that’ll make me chuckle for a little while yet
With regards to the ‘lost’ – surely only God knows who’s really saved or not and the way I see it (and I think this sits with the story of the Bible) we’re all on a journey with God and most of the time it’s hard to say who’s ‘in’ and who’s ‘out’. We might be surprised who we meet in the new heavens or on the new earth (however that’s going to work!). I think we humans are a bit too black and white sometimes.
Comment by beckyw — November 13, 2008 @ 9:46 pm
Robb- I hope I wasn’t deriding motherhood or doing housework; I would absolutely love to be a mother! (Though not just yet of course before my Mum panics) What annoyed me was that a) someone assumed that was all I could do/be as a woman and b) even if that was all I wanted to do, I couldn’t get an education first.
I really have so much respect for women who raise children and I really hope to be an amazing mother one day. But I love my degree too, and I will hopefully love my job. I just hate little gender boxes which say you can be this because you’re a girl, this because you’re a boy and that’s that.
Sorry, that was probably more ranty than I intended
Steve Lancaster- Although my experience with the CU here wasn’t great, they do do some excellent outreach to disadvantaged young people in the Welsh Valleys (I’m at Cardiff). People from CU go up to different Valley towns each night of the week and run kids’ clubs to give the children something to do other than hang around on the streets which is really cool.
Comment by theseoldshades — November 13, 2008 @ 10:51 pm
And I would love to be a grandma one day theseoldshades – just not yet either! I’m too busy being a student as well
Comment by Pat — November 13, 2008 @ 10:58 pm
what an engaging thread… thanks sooo much gals and guys.
theseoldshades… good rant… you go girl!
Comment by jonbirch — November 14, 2008 @ 12:42 am
theseoldshades – before I read the rest of your comment, your first statment makes me wonder what the hell I wrote………..
[don't take that the wrong way, I think I sometimes (those who have seen me a lot here would say frequently) say things the wrong way round!!]
I grew up in a world where I was “Told you/one/i can do anything!”
That wasn’t dependent upon sex/colour/height/age etc etc etc…
I work in a world where men and women are equal. My boss has usually been a woman. My friends are male and female. My wife is the one with the high flying career and qualifications. *Dr* Ruth is the person I am most proud to be associated with. She is the saint I hold aloft on many occasions [she hates it when I talk like this - and will kick my arse!!]. She shows me on a regular basis what it means to be Christ like. She shows forgiveness in ways I couldn’t possibly achieve. She was made in a mould that was broken!
And she has spent 7 years at uni to be called Doctor. And I am proud of that. And we have been married 10 years… and we don’t have kids… and I make dinner a lot….
So. Motherhood for me is a vital thing (I hope one day to convince my power hungry
and over qualified 
and career driven 
feminist 
wife* ) that we could potentially have kids. Unfortunately you can’t ride a big twin harley whilst pregnant…..
So to be short – I was offended by what you were told by the CU. If that is the only role for women on I want to move to mars**!!
*Please tell me (if no one else, my wife) that you saw the tongue planted firmly in the cheek!!!!
**another flippin rider – I appreciate the role mothers have and don’t deride them either!!
Comment by Robb — November 14, 2008 @ 12:55 am
BTW – I wrote quite a long post about my good experiences of CU’s and it doesn’t seem to have appeared
It was about 6 hrs ago….
Stupid internet
Comment by Robb — November 14, 2008 @ 12:57 am
oh good, some more Jesus lovin ladies that want to burst out from the cookie cutter.
So glad I’m not the only one…!
Comment by brunettekoala — November 14, 2008 @ 2:18 am
PS I was part of CU, but I was a rebel who questioned everything. Oh, and sometimes I got caught using swear words. And I wasn’t middle class or from a Christian family. And I believed in spiritual gifts. And I had friends who did not believe in God that I didn’t invite to our ‘evangelism events’. And I hated Pride and Prejudice (still do). And I didn’t read my bible every morning. And I worked in a nightclub, and a pub that was in a building that was once a church building.
:O
Shocking, huh. How many ASBOs is that worth?
Comment by brunettekoala — November 14, 2008 @ 2:25 am
Erm…. I dunno what your talkin about but it sounds cool!!
Comment by Robb — November 14, 2008 @ 2:25 am
Shit – I sounded like an old man and I ain’t!
Comment by Robb — November 14, 2008 @ 2:28 am
Robb @ 24, well said!
I’ve never really been much part of the CU, but the descriptions here ring bells with other (evanglistic, student) Christian circles from home. Also never quite fitted in, not from a neat unmessy middle class Christian home.
That said, brunettekoala I LOVE P&P. Also Anne of Green Gables. Hehe. Hope I will not be lynched from ASBO with these secrets revealed??
Comment by Mimou — November 14, 2008 @ 3:09 am
I’m thinking we could change the sign to “Alienate the Lost and Lose the Alienated” and it would still ring true.
Comment by Laura — November 14, 2008 @ 4:50 am
Mimou – Anne of Green Gables! loved that whole series…read all the books and watched the film adaptions.
I fear any street cred I may have once had here on asbo has now gone for admitting that though
Comment by dadube — November 14, 2008 @ 5:34 am
[just to clarify the "i don't know what you're talking about" whatnot - "bursting out from the cookie cutter" - is it 'breaking out from middle USA's suberbia housewifedom?']
Comment by Robb — November 14, 2008 @ 9:23 am
It’s interesting reading about CU experiences. You know one of the things I love most about youth is the energetic zeal that many young people possess. And one of the things that can get up my nose most about young people is the energetic zeal they possess. I suppose it is a question of focus. I remember being something of an angry young woman myself, but thinking back, I didn’t quite get the balance. Life has, I think (hope) knocked me into shape a bit. This is a possible reason that so many people are put off by CU. My daughter has never really bothered with CU – she found something instantly off-putting about the people. But she did, for a little while, attend a big popular student church in her uni town. They were very keen for her to drop her non-Christian boyfriend in favour of someone more suitable. Suffice it to say, she dropped the church rather than the boyfriend.
I went to university in my thirties and as far as I’m aware, there was only one guy on my course in the CU. He was always very nice and polite to me but everyone else on the course had him labelled as a bit of a ‘nob’, to say the least, always trying to convert others or engaging in heated debates on Christian issues. I think he would have done better if he had just enjoyed relating to others in very ordinary things.
I’m intrigued to think of Jesus making the apostles ‘fishers of men’. This, for me, lines itself up with his initial meeting with Peter when he’d been out with his boat and crew fishing but there was nothing to be found. Jesus asked them to put out their nets again and this time they could barely haul the catch in. Perhaps we can leave a bit more of the preparatory work to the Holy Spirit and just be there to hold a hand, provide a shoulder to cry on, a laugh or a listening ear. Or maybe I am not doing enough?
Comment by Carole — November 14, 2008 @ 9:30 am
confession time.
jon birch, creator of asbojesus, is also very much a fan of anne of green gables.
what can i say?
there you have it.
i feel raw.
Comment by jonbirch — November 14, 2008 @ 9:56 am
Just to clarify about CU – I do think they can be good for some people but, just like many churches, they can find it hard to accept people who don’t fit into the mold that they are used to.
I was at UKC, doing theolgy/rs and drama degree and many of my mates on the theology course were big into CU. But what made me REALLY mad was when I attended a meeting and they turned talk to Muslims and ending up praying for Muslims who were (and I quote) “worshipping the devil”. One of my biggest friends was a Muslim, and as a woolley liberal and pretty angry young woman – I flipped!
just thinking about the motherhood bit too while I’m at this – before having poppy I was career minded, love teaching RE and Drama, and being Head of Department as well as Head of House. Not to be big headed but I think I’m pretty good at it and I go beyond what is expected. Before I gave birth I said how much my career would still be the centre of my universe.
Boy was I wrong! Now I have Poppy I couldn’t care less for my job and really don’t want to go back in January. Its hard – I’ve just got the dream job for me this last year and now I want to give it up, but being a mother is now the best thing I’ve ever done in my life.
Can I juggle a child and a career? Who knows??
Comment by dadube — November 14, 2008 @ 10:09 am
It all gets very confusing, doesn’t it Dadube. I found I needed to accept that I either do one thing reasonably well and the other poorly or learn to accept that you can do everything but not particularly well! It becomes a question of compromise. I went from a fairly well paid job with prospects in IT to stay at home mum/student. Whilst the possibility of a big career has been well and truly sacrificed, I would not give up the memories and experiences of being there for my kids when they were younger. The relaxed little chats on the way home from school were priceless. But that was my personal decision and not necessarily right for everyone. My advice is just to really enjoy Poppy while you have this precious time with no work distractions. At least you are established in a job where you will be able to make the most of her school holidays.
Comment by Carole — November 14, 2008 @ 10:53 am
Robb @49 – you’re right, I will kick your ass! People are gonna have some weird preconceptions about me now and will be sadly disappointed, I fear!
Regarding the song with the offending lyric (comment #3), I always thought that we were asking for the inheritance which was lost (through sin), rather than ‘lost souls’. Maybe I misunderstood but I prefer this interpretation!
Our Uni CU was pretty awful. Their biggest mistake was meeting on a friday night, I mean, come on, which students are going to choose CU over a friday night out?
Comment by doctor ruth — November 14, 2008 @ 1:11 pm
Well sweetpea, I did say
Now get off wordpress and start earning me some money!!
Comment by Robb — November 14, 2008 @ 2:54 pm
Oh yeah, Dr Ruth @ 63 – inviting me along on a Friday night was never going to work. Beer vs Being Evangelised……..
I think we can all solve this equation!
Comment by Robb — November 14, 2008 @ 2:58 pm
[...] (HT: The Ongoing Adventures of ASBO Jesus) [...]
Pingback by Alienation | Chris Baker :: Some Guy and His Mac — November 14, 2008 @ 4:04 pm
Robb- I did understand you and I now find myself in complete agreement with you!
Mimou- I love P and P and Anne of Green Gables too! Even though I sometimes find my feminist side at odds with some of the ideas
Comment by theseoldshades — November 14, 2008 @ 5:32 pm
That should be mis-understand…
this is what getting up 8am for a lecture on Hermeneutics and Phenomenology does to my poor student brain!
Comment by theseoldshades — November 14, 2008 @ 5:34 pm
There are sometimes, you know, when I don’t feel that I fit in ASBO conversations…
you see I enjoyed CU days, I grew in them… I’m not sure that I’d still be totally at ease signing the declaration of faith but that would be more about the words than the beliefs.. but I enjoyed and benefitted from the CU, running missions, getting involved in prayer meetings, reading the bible with others… trying to work out what it meant…
So, I’m probably the weird one on the ASBO site… feel a bit excluded actually, fearful about what all you other ‘right on’ ASBOers might think of me “Silly old biddy”
It’s funny how when we berate others for berating others we can become just like those others.
(yes, honestly that sentence did make sense
Comment by Caroline Too — November 14, 2008 @ 10:36 pm
Oh golly, followed the link to the days of elijah…
good grief… somehow the stringing together of bible-ish phrases does not make a song bibilical.
outrageous
Comment by Caroline Too — November 14, 2008 @ 10:38 pm
Caroline Too – I am still lamenting the loss of the post that took 1/2 an hour to wright detailing the joix I have had and the blessings that have been given to me by the CU. I have had very bad experiences within the CU and very good ones……
….but the same can be said of “The Church” not just the CU. Whilst not directly, the CU had a very instrumental role in my own ‘coming to faith’.
[I also suspect that thinking "silly old biddy" precludes one from being "right on"]
Comment by Robb — November 15, 2008 @ 2:46 am
caroline too. i notice you also commented on jonny baker’s ‘not fitting in’ post (or some such title). i’m a misfit in that i have had very little experience of c.u.’s. i spoke at one years ago… i remember it… it was about serving. i remember i had a bowl of water and a towel. i asked if i could wash someone’s feet. the problem is, the one (brave) girl who volunteered was just a tad pretty and sexy and i remember finding the whole thing a bit of a turn on. i don’t think it showed and i think i made the point i was wanting to… but i still remember it to this day. guilt and pleasure. even in an act of reverence and servanthood i’m a mixed bag of nuts, bolts and loose screws.
so there you are… more of a confession than a comment.
Comment by jonbirch — November 15, 2008 @ 3:30 am
This is the problem with serving in any capacity within our communities – we are human. [I'm not saying we are all aroused BTW].
We stand there and do our best and yet we are flawed. We get ‘aroused’ or amused or bemused or confused like everyone else who is there. The question “WTF just happened” is probably the most frequent ministerial thought!!
BTW, we should go to bed!!
nearly 4AM…….
Comment by Robb — November 15, 2008 @ 3:43 am
caroline too – please don’t feel excluded! not all CU’s are bad. I belonged to one at school that i loved and grew immensly in. In fact the dear old jon birch came on one of our weekends to hell hall – thats the affectionate name people gave it, i have no idea what it was really called now – as part of the group ho were leading it for us.
Awwwww i’ getting misty eyed at those days now and remembering how gorgeous jon was to me as i was such a screw up and angry sad depressed bleugh!
jon – love ou babe, miss you. there are times i kow i live in the wrong country too..
sorry for typos btw – feeding and tying one handed with my left hand – i don’t recommend it!
Comment by dadube — November 15, 2008 @ 4:12 am
Caroline Too, how awful that you should feel on the edge, here! Sorry if we have made you feel that way. The thing is, people can only ever speak as they find, and they usually only have one experience of CU to go on. I suspect that many student groups/societies (not just CUs) are badly run, after all, they are generally inexperienced people trying to gain experience (often the megalomaniac attention seeker types!). One of the premier league people in my life had a wonderful CU experience, and I trust her judgement implicitly. She, like you, was one of the fortunate ones.
Jon, what a fabulous confession!
That had me chuckling! Feet are very intimate things and I always struggle a bit with the footwashing, too. Your comment was so wonderfully human and beautifully honest and precisely why I love you to bits…the humanity and honesty, not the er…you know…
Comment by Carole — November 15, 2008 @ 10:21 am
Carole – maybe you fell for jon’s self portrait in the recent cartoon????!!!
Comment by dadube — November 15, 2008 @ 12:24 pm
haha! just saying it as it is really.
i think one of the greatest things that some (not all) comedians do in our culture is a kind of public confession. sometimes prophetic, they mirror our experiences by sharing theres… it all gives us permission to be human, flawed and a bit more bodily function oriented than we mostly care to admit.
bottom line is… you can be engaged in the most pressing spiritual matters, attending to the most godly and righteous cause, but you will (at some point) be driven to take a leak or have a dump… that’s the way it is. we are human, flesh and blood, from the soil.
Comment by jonbirch — November 15, 2008 @ 1:30 pm
Yes, Dadube, I did feel that was a very candid self-portrait…
Comment by Carole — November 15, 2008 @ 4:53 pm
Jon (#72) that was a different and healthy ‘not fitting in’ that I
mentioned on the JonnyB site…
and Carole, Dadube… don’t feel too bad. I was, perhaps, being a
little poetic there to make a point. I feel very much part of
this funny-old ASBO conversation. But, just sometimes, I feel that
we tend to line up the evangelly baby ‘ducks’ to have a pop at
them.
‘THEY’ are judgemental seems to be a common thread of some of our
conversations and when that happens, I’m just a little edgy
that we may be culpable as well…
Comment by Caroline Too — November 15, 2008 @ 5:26 pm
Caroline Too – how very true. How very human.
Comment by Robb — November 15, 2008 @ 5:42 pm
Re: CUs, the one at York was there for me when I was first starting to piece together a sense of my spirituality. It was a family – with lots of answers (too many, perhaps?) but also friendship and gathering and purpose and questioning. It was, in every good sense of the word, Church – though it would probably have thrown up its hands at the thought. But it was more immediate than any of the sunday manifestations of church that I attended, less hierarchical, because it deliberately avoided the ‘Church’ label, curiously open, because it embraced the diversity of evangelicalism and even had a place for fringe members, and risk-taking, because its ‘congregation’ changed totally every three or four years.
Which makes me wonder, given that it shares much of this with the emerging church conversation, and given that many of us who ‘don’t fit’ the old church models are educated in sixth form colleges and universities and are both former CU members, whether the CU has had quite a large, though perhaps unwitting, influence over the way Church is changing.
Just a thought…
Comment by Steve Lancaster — November 15, 2008 @ 7:10 pm
yes… caroline too, agreed. actually i found that jonny’s post and some of the comments (including yours) to be very helpful.
on the subject of finger pointing and judgementalism, maybe i’m the worst… hmmmmm.
Comment by jonbirch — November 16, 2008 @ 2:47 am
I’m just back from a conference – which was good, but some of the main meeting stuff was a bit like the aliens on planet christian cartoon – had to stifle giggles (i’m so unholy)
Robb – Basically yes, here is my little rant about it from last year here…
http://brunettekoala.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/lets-not-be-cookie-cutter-christians/
And Jon did a cartoon also talking about ‘cookie cutter’ christians a while ago
http://asbojesus.wordpress.com/2008/04/13/439/
Comment by brunettekoala — November 17, 2008 @ 12:23 am
PS – to the classics fans….
Totally understand that people like the BBC Drama, Mark Darcy and all that stuff. that’s ok. I just get irritated when people are shocked that I don’t. And it seems that every woman I know who goes to church does except me.
Comment by brunettekoala — November 17, 2008 @ 12:25 am
Oh no Caroline!! I’m sorry for possibly being partly to blame for making you feel that way with my ranting.
But actually, you spoke up when you felt you were different from everybody else.
That takes guts.
And for that I most definitely salute you/high five you…(I don’t know…something…I’m not that hip/cool to choose suitable response)
Also I feel I must confess after my mini-rant above, that I too like Anne of Green Gables. I think I even had ‘Anne Shirley’ as one of my imaginary school pupils when I was wee. (I wanted to be a teacher – I took ‘playing school’ a bit too far by turning my Dad’s garage into a school with ‘jotters’ and everything) I got bored halfway through the first of the ’sequels’ though. I think that’s the only ‘classic’ I like.
Also, CU has a place in terms of bringing a community together to encourage one another and so on. I know CU did help me in some ways, but destroyed my self esteem in others making me very aware of hierachies, class issues, family background that meant nothing in my church.
Maybe I’m not a very ASBO person, because I love my old church. They were my family – a mixture of all sorts of different people who love Jesus and want to share that with the people in their communities.
Comment by brunettekoala — November 17, 2008 @ 12:40 am
brunettekoala… don’t say you’re not an asbo person cos you love people. that’s my only reason for doing asbo these days, because i love people. it may be a funny way of showing it on my part.
as i said on another post a moment ago, from what i can tell, the asbo readership has quite a breadth of background… i just feel utterly, humbled, bewildered and grateful that people are happy talking and listening here. it is truly an unexpected thing in my life.
Comment by jonbirch — November 17, 2008 @ 2:09 pm
And I love people too!
Sas
Comment by sarah — November 20, 2008 @ 11:39 pm
Phew. Thank goodness for that. I was going to have to do something of the secular ASBO sort like, pull off a car indicator or let someone’s tyres down….all in the spirit of rebellion…
Comment by brunettekoala — November 21, 2008 @ 9:31 pm
Nah. Stick with the posting
Sas x
Comment by sarah — November 25, 2008 @ 12:09 am