Funny how that can take place with all the same people in each case.
Is it you?
Is it them?
Is it the phase of Saturn divided by the methane output of Farmer Brown’s herd multiplied by the cosine of the sermon length?
Is it merely everyone resolving to the lowest common denominator?
Actually, it’s probably just the normal tides of life and relationship.
Although, individuals and groups can actively expend thought and energy in staying on, or at least close to “the high ground”.
Definitely number three… pretty much sums it up for me. I don’t hate um… I’m just not getting it, and have the feeling that they aren’t getting it either. So why are we still here? If they were all having a good time and I wasn’t, number one would be me (but I’d keep quiet, not wanting to ruin it for anyone). If we were all having a good time, number two. But nobody seems to be having any a good time. Oh, and by “having a good time” I mean something more spiritual, like… I don’t know, fill in the blank.
Emily
Comment by The Millers — December 5, 2008 @ 4:17 am
My first response was ‘man, lucky if its done in an hour!’ which I then realised was unhelpful. Really sad if its number one, as we are basically meant to be in community & loving relationship with one another.
I guess it brings me back to a fundamental question I am grappling with at the moment, which is what is church for?
Like you other ASBOers, I think I have feel like all three of these statements from time to time. Nevertheless, if I feel called to anything by God, it is to be in relationship with others – my natural inclination would probably be to take a more solitary stance. When I say ‘called’ (a very grand expression, I know!) it is very much like when I was the shy kid taken to school by my mum. I held tightly on to her hand and tried to hide behind her in the cloakroom. Then the person I loved more than anyone else pulled her hand away from the grip of mine and gently pushed me into the noisy throng. I felt physically ill and wanted to cry. Tough love but it does help us to grow.
I have been involved in various churchy based things – walking group, art group, pilgrimage and others…I know this doesn’t seem to do much for the society in which we live…but I do think that the ‘play together’ attitude can make it easier for us to ‘work together’. When I look at our congregation, many of the more reticent parishioners have become much more ‘active’ when they have come along to the social events. And actually at some point we begin to love each other…it’s a beautiful thing.
Depends on your church Robb there are lots of people in my church who are nothing like me and I am nothing like them, except in my love of Jesus and wanting to fellowship with them.
Often its the people i would least choose to be with that teach me the most in life.
Thats why we have the church to help us learn together and walk together.
Jesus knew that by pushing us together we would rub the rough bits off us.
Comment by beatthedrum — December 5, 2008 @ 1:17 pm
Never mind all three being true of church… i think all three could apply for me when i’m sat alone in a darkened room!
Kim, at the moment, I’m not sure what church is for, but whatever it is, it seems to take an awful lot of effort to maintain. I think the answer lies somewhere in what Carole @ 17 and CT @ 4 said.
Carole i agree: i think that caring for one another in a social context, spending time with and affirming each other – that’s really important. If people then have the strength and confidence and ability to impact their wider community then its because people have cared for and invested in them, not despite it. Creating a genuine community in the fist place is just as important as inviting people to be part of it. And we can do much more together than we can do apart.
To clarify – I’d define genuine communities as being welcoming and active and outward looking as well as supportive – building community is not about investing in holy huddles.
Last Sunday I actually went to church at the time the service ended.
I had had a busy week, with plenty of meetings regarding church work, so I decided that I was more in need of the post-service socialising than the service itself.
hey chad. I’ll gladly do number 3 with you on monday night (that’s pub night for us Northwest USA folks)…
it seems that if we were really being welcomed to Church then it would be “a lifetime spent with people who you’d otherwise probably never get along with.” At least that’s my experience!
being over eager, I took a bus last wed, in the freezing wind, that arrived an hour early in an apparently desolate hole on the edge of Brissol
first I tried the cafe, who’s lack of tables and bustling atmosphere did nothing to sooth my soul, so wandering around the streets I wondered what their red brick church would look like from the inside
on entering I sensed life, and walked through corridors to find a cosy kitchen serving coffee to the faithful communion attenders
the warmth of the smiles generously distributed across a happy group of OAP’s enticed me, their coffee must be good!
actually, it was on the week side, probably fair trade, so can only conclude the warmth and love in that room came from a shared communion
subo – thats beautiful. I went back to my home town recently, a place have avoided like the plague for the last 20 years. I went to a church I’d visited as a child and the dozen elderly people welcomed me, showed me round, invited me to eat with them, etc etc. I was so blessed and humbled by their kindness.
I guess church can and does work on many levels in many different guises, and is all about folks loving each other as best they can?
subo – are you equating weak coffee with Fairtrade? No, I’m sure they must be separate comments but to clarify in case anyone hasn’t experienced Fairtrade coffee and misreads!
Fairtrade means that producers get a fair price and a premium for the local community to spend as it wishes – children’s education, adult literacy, electricity (so children don’t have to collect firewood and have time for schooling), etc.
Clearly paying a fair wage and a premium does NOT cause coffee to be weaker than other coffees! In the town I live in there are at least 40 different Fairtrade coffees available, of which 11 are instant. Some are weak / cheap, others are not and are loved by those who are particular about their coffee and like it strong.
Some who buy coffee for churches seem to practice an asceticism they wouldn’t practice when spending their own money, though, and only buy the cheapest goods, which may not help give Fairtrade a good name if this is the only place you experience it.
Comment by fair trader — December 8, 2008 @ 8:58 am
Clearly fair trader is wrong. How much money is passed on to the producers is directly linked and inversely proportional to the strength of coffee. Simple science says that it is so!!
I remember one professor reminding us that Church was not where you wanted to be, it was where God called you to be and often it was with people who you would rather not be with in any other circumstance. I can look out over the congregation on any given Sunday and see people who fall into all three categories, but then that is what makes the Church the people of God.
Comment by RockingRev — December 8, 2008 @ 5:36 pm
I would like to be 3, but because I feel a bit like an observer at my church, I think I am a 1, and that makes me not sure if I want to be friends with these overenthusiastic “sicknenly joyful” people!!
I wasn’t having a go at a fantastic people’s movement, all I was saying, is, that, occasionally, at church, I feel the quality of the coffee is not the main priority – and that something else is the key attraction
I don’t know, but would you go to a church meet to support a coffee tasting habit?, though again, at times, knowing I’ll get a coffee and croissant at the fellowship has really helped me open up to my fellow worshipers
p.s., there is some very good fair trade coffee out there
While we are on the subject of fair trade coffee, to give my independent taste test, I have tasted a number of fair trade coffees. I enjoy the filter/cafetiere coffees, generally – no difference compared to other brands…but every instant brand I’ve tried does absolutely nothing for my tastebuds… I would classify it ‘muck’. I know that talking instants is anathema to the discerning coffee drinker but in the rushed pace of the average day, it serves a purpose. Fair trade instant…’fraid not.
Actually Robb, I think you will find that decent coffee is wasted on the average churchgoer. When I do the Art Festival, I have lots of little cafetieres and proper coffee (purchased with my own hard-earned cash, to make the coffee experience the very best that I can). I charge about 10p more for the proper stuff than the bog standard (’bog’-standard on a number of levels). All the takings go to an education project in Peru. “Would you like a cafetiere or instant?” I ask of the odd person willing to part with 50p, in my politest, cheeriest, most welcoming voice. Practically to a person they ask for instant. The good news is I have loads of nice coffee to take home with me at the end!
Aah now you’re talking trendy 20-30-something churchgoer…I’m talking over 50s provincial churchgoer…er, on second thoughts can we make that over 60s…I’m 46 and over 50s is just a little too close to home for me… I can do Starbucks and sickly cake type concoctions…honest!
Great conversation between a member of my congregation and one of his co-workers the other week:
Co-Worker: People in Church are hypocrites. They pretend to be really nice on Sunday, then they’re bastards for the rest of the week.
Christian: No, actually a lot of them are bastards on a Sunday too.
Comment by bethanytwins — December 11, 2008 @ 4:03 am
Or, as a vicar I know responded (tongue in cheek) when a rather verbal ’seeker’ said she didn’t go go church because the people there were all hypocrites, “Oh, don’t let that worry you, there’s always room for one more”.
Funny how that can take place with all the same people in each case.
Is it you?
Is it them?
Is it the phase of Saturn divided by the methane output of Farmer Brown’s herd multiplied by the cosine of the sermon length?
Is it merely everyone resolving to the lowest common denominator?
Actually, it’s probably just the normal tides of life and relationship.
Although, individuals and groups can actively expend thought and energy in staying on, or at least close to “the high ground”.
Comment by Forrest — December 4, 2008 @ 10:21 pm
Can all three be true at once?
Comment by Rich — December 4, 2008 @ 10:22 pm
Blast! I thought I was going to be the first to comment bu Forrest pressed send just before I did! I feel like I lost the auction!
Comment by Rich — December 4, 2008 @ 10:23 pm
An hour spent with God?
Comment by Caroline Too — December 4, 2008 @ 10:49 pm
… or an hour having an excuse for not getting my hands dirty living life ‘out there’
oh there’s so many once you get started isn’t there….
Comment by Caroline Too — December 4, 2008 @ 10:51 pm
the middle one.
Comment by sarah — December 4, 2008 @ 10:51 pm
Me too – door number two – though I often find that in non church settings …
Comment by becky — December 4, 2008 @ 11:06 pm
Aww, Rich, I’ll promise to sacrifice for my brother in Christ next time
Comment by Forrest — December 4, 2008 @ 11:31 pm
I don’t know how to answer that?
Comment by dennis coburn — December 4, 2008 @ 11:56 pm
i like the third one…
Comment by chad m — December 5, 2008 @ 3:16 am
Definitely number three… pretty much sums it up for me. I don’t hate um… I’m just not getting it, and have the feeling that they aren’t getting it either. So why are we still here? If they were all having a good time and I wasn’t, number one would be me (but I’d keep quiet, not wanting to ruin it for anyone). If we were all having a good time, number two. But nobody seems to be having any a good time. Oh, and by “having a good time” I mean something more spiritual, like… I don’t know, fill in the blank.
Emily
Comment by The Millers — December 5, 2008 @ 4:17 am
[...] from asbo JESUS [...]
Pingback by Robert’s Blog » Blog Archive » i hope we are the middle one — December 5, 2008 @ 4:35 am
I think I have felt each one of those at some point in my life.
Comment by Johnny Brooks — December 5, 2008 @ 6:05 am
Johnny: Me too. But right now, definitely number three because I sit next to the boy I like in church!
Comment by theseoldshades — December 5, 2008 @ 8:24 am
Sounds like an hour spent in the company of people to me!
Comment by Miriworm — December 5, 2008 @ 8:41 am
My first response was ‘man, lucky if its done in an hour!’ which I then realised was unhelpful. Really sad if its number one, as we are basically meant to be in community & loving relationship with one another.
I guess it brings me back to a fundamental question I am grappling with at the moment, which is what is church for?
Comment by Kim — December 5, 2008 @ 9:17 am
Like you other ASBOers, I think I have feel like all three of these statements from time to time. Nevertheless, if I feel called to anything by God, it is to be in relationship with others – my natural inclination would probably be to take a more solitary stance. When I say ‘called’ (a very grand expression, I know!) it is very much like when I was the shy kid taken to school by my mum. I held tightly on to her hand and tried to hide behind her in the cloakroom. Then the person I loved more than anyone else pulled her hand away from the grip of mine and gently pushed me into the noisy throng. I felt physically ill and wanted to cry. Tough love but it does help us to grow.
I have been involved in various churchy based things – walking group, art group, pilgrimage and others…I know this doesn’t seem to do much for the society in which we live…but I do think that the ‘play together’ attitude can make it easier for us to ‘work together’. When I look at our congregation, many of the more reticent parishioners have become much more ‘active’ when they have come along to the social events. And actually at some point we begin to love each other…it’s a beautiful thing.
Comment by Carole — December 5, 2008 @ 9:31 am
What worries me is that on the inside it is still people like you and me…
Comment by Robb — December 5, 2008 @ 10:37 am
Kim my 1st response was I don’t know a church which is over in an hr!
Comment by soniamain — December 5, 2008 @ 1:00 pm
theseoldshades… all the very best with boy you like who sits next to you.
Comment by jonbirch — December 5, 2008 @ 1:07 pm
Just an hour I prefer 2 hours meetings!!
Depends on your church Robb there are lots of people in my church who are nothing like me and I am nothing like them, except in my love of Jesus and wanting to fellowship with them.
Often its the people i would least choose to be with that teach me the most in life.
Thats why we have the church to help us learn together and walk together.
Jesus knew that by pushing us together we would rub the rough bits off us.
http://www.beatthedrum.wordpress.com
Comment by beatthedrum — December 5, 2008 @ 1:17 pm
Never mind all three being true of church… i think all three could apply for me when i’m sat alone in a darkened room!
Kim, at the moment, I’m not sure what church is for, but whatever it is, it seems to take an awful lot of effort to maintain. I think the answer lies somewhere in what Carole @ 17 and CT @ 4 said.
Carole i agree: i think that caring for one another in a social context, spending time with and affirming each other – that’s really important. If people then have the strength and confidence and ability to impact their wider community then its because people have cared for and invested in them, not despite it. Creating a genuine community in the fist place is just as important as inviting people to be part of it. And we can do much more together than we can do apart.
To clarify – I’d define genuine communities as being welcoming and active and outward looking as well as supportive – building community is not about investing in holy huddles.
Comment by Linus — December 5, 2008 @ 1:36 pm
Church…a lifetime spent!
Comment by marcus — December 5, 2008 @ 2:40 pm
The first one!
Just so that I know whether I’m actually loving people or not.
Comment by zefi — December 5, 2008 @ 4:29 pm
Last Sunday I actually went to church at the time the service ended.
I had had a busy week, with plenty of meetings regarding church work, so I decided that I was more in need of the post-service socialising than the service itself.
Comment by Bo — December 5, 2008 @ 10:53 pm
Bo
people at our place actually use my name as slang for turning up late or only in time for coffee. I am inordinately proud of this fact =]
Comment by Linus — December 5, 2008 @ 11:35 pm
number 3, and i’m a pastor with convictions that know/think all of these are wrong…
Comment by chad m — December 6, 2008 @ 12:20 am
yup… they are all wrong aren’t they. well, at least as a definition of ‘church’ anyway. welcome chad m.
linus… you mean like ‘doing a linus?’ you should indeed be proud.
nice point, zefi.
Comment by jonbirch — December 6, 2008 @ 1:24 am
hey chad. I’ll gladly do number 3 with you on monday night (that’s pub night for us Northwest USA folks)…
it seems that if we were really being welcomed to Church then it would be “a lifetime spent with people who you’d otherwise probably never get along with.” At least that’s my experience!
Comment by Joe — December 6, 2008 @ 2:28 am
being over eager, I took a bus last wed, in the freezing wind, that arrived an hour early in an apparently desolate hole on the edge of Brissol
first I tried the cafe, who’s lack of tables and bustling atmosphere did nothing to sooth my soul, so wandering around the streets I wondered what their red brick church would look like from the inside
on entering I sensed life, and walked through corridors to find a cosy kitchen serving coffee to the faithful communion attenders
the warmth of the smiles generously distributed across a happy group of OAP’s enticed me, their coffee must be good!
actually, it was on the week side, probably fair trade, so can only conclude the warmth and love in that room came from a shared communion
Comment by subo — December 6, 2008 @ 7:40 am
subo – thats beautiful. I went back to my home town recently, a place have avoided like the plague for the last 20 years. I went to a church I’d visited as a child and the dozen elderly people welcomed me, showed me round, invited me to eat with them, etc etc. I was so blessed and humbled by their kindness.
I guess church can and does work on many levels in many different guises, and is all about folks loving each other as best they can?
Comment by Kim — December 6, 2008 @ 9:40 am
“love the Lord with all your heart and soul and mind, and love your neighbour as yourself”
“Greater Love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends”
Yep i think its all about loving each other. Real, gritty, gentle, never-giving-up-on-you love. Amen to that. Come Lord Jesus.
Comment by Linus — December 6, 2008 @ 10:57 am
great stuff!
Comment by jonbirch — December 6, 2008 @ 3:01 pm
Hi Kim, glad to hear you found a warm welcome
Comment by subo — December 7, 2008 @ 8:18 pm
subo – are you equating weak coffee with Fairtrade? No, I’m sure they must be separate comments but to clarify in case anyone hasn’t experienced Fairtrade coffee and misreads!
Fairtrade means that producers get a fair price and a premium for the local community to spend as it wishes – children’s education, adult literacy, electricity (so children don’t have to collect firewood and have time for schooling), etc.
Clearly paying a fair wage and a premium does NOT cause coffee to be weaker than other coffees! In the town I live in there are at least 40 different Fairtrade coffees available, of which 11 are instant. Some are weak / cheap, others are not and are loved by those who are particular about their coffee and like it strong.
Some who buy coffee for churches seem to practice an asceticism they wouldn’t practice when spending their own money, though, and only buy the cheapest goods, which may not help give Fairtrade a good name if this is the only place you experience it.
Comment by fair trader — December 8, 2008 @ 8:58 am
Clearly fair trader is wrong. How much money is passed on to the producers is directly linked and inversely proportional to the strength of coffee. Simple science says that it is so!!
Comment by Nescafe — December 8, 2008 @ 9:07 am
haha!!! subo’s point is the very point you make fair trader. it’s the buying of the cheap stuff that gives church and fair trade a bad name!
hi nescafe… welcome… shouldn’t you be off round the world killing babies or something?
Comment by jonbirch — December 8, 2008 @ 12:00 pm
I remember one professor reminding us that Church was not where you wanted to be, it was where God called you to be and often it was with people who you would rather not be with in any other circumstance. I can look out over the congregation on any given Sunday and see people who fall into all three categories, but then that is what makes the Church the people of God.
Comment by RockingRev — December 8, 2008 @ 5:36 pm
I would like to be 3, but because I feel a bit like an observer at my church, I think I am a 1, and that makes me not sure if I want to be friends with these overenthusiastic “sicknenly joyful” people!!
Comment by Hazel — December 8, 2008 @ 7:25 pm
welcome rocking rev and hazel!
Comment by jonbirch — December 8, 2008 @ 11:33 pm
hi all you wonderful fellow fair-trade supporters
I wasn’t having a go at a fantastic people’s movement, all I was saying, is, that, occasionally, at church, I feel the quality of the coffee is not the main priority – and that something else is the key attraction
I don’t know, but would you go to a church meet to support a coffee tasting habit?, though again, at times, knowing I’ll get a coffee and croissant at the fellowship has really helped me open up to my fellow worshipers
p.s., there is some very good fair trade coffee out there
Comment by subo — December 9, 2008 @ 11:56 am
Comment by jonbirch — December 9, 2008 @ 12:34 pm
While we are on the subject of fair trade coffee, to give my independent taste test, I have tasted a number of fair trade coffees. I enjoy the filter/cafetiere coffees, generally – no difference compared to other brands…but every instant brand I’ve tried does absolutely nothing for my tastebuds… I would classify it ‘muck’. I know that talking instants is anathema to the discerning coffee drinker but in the rushed pace of the average day, it serves a purpose. Fair trade instant…’fraid not.
Comment by Carole — December 9, 2008 @ 6:27 pm
agreed. instant is rubbish, real is excellent! it’s decided!
Comment by jonbirch — December 9, 2008 @ 6:48 pm
And that is why I should be in charge of church coffee!!
[my own little empire
]
Comment by Robb — December 10, 2008 @ 8:23 am
Actually Robb, I think you will find that decent coffee is wasted on the average churchgoer. When I do the Art Festival, I have lots of little cafetieres and proper coffee (purchased with my own hard-earned cash, to make the coffee experience the very best that I can). I charge about 10p more for the proper stuff than the bog standard (’bog’-standard on a number of levels). All the takings go to an education project in Peru. “Would you like a cafetiere or instant?” I ask of the odd person willing to part with 50p, in my politest, cheeriest, most welcoming voice. Practically to a person they ask for instant. The good news is I have loads of nice coffee to take home with me at the end!
Comment by Carole — December 10, 2008 @ 10:03 am
Then why do starbucks do so well?
Comment by Robb — December 10, 2008 @ 10:32 am
Aah now you’re talking trendy 20-30-something churchgoer…I’m talking over 50s provincial churchgoer…er, on second thoughts can we make that over 60s…I’m 46 and over 50s is just a little too close to home for me… I can do Starbucks and sickly cake type concoctions…honest!
Comment by Carole — December 10, 2008 @ 10:59 am
Carole – what were you thinking??!! Next you will be offering strange foreign foods like pasta!!
Comment by Robb — December 10, 2008 @ 2:00 pm
i’ll take neros over starbucks any day of the week. although i do rather enjoy a starbucks rocky road.
Comment by jonbirch — December 10, 2008 @ 7:27 pm
Great conversation between a member of my congregation and one of his co-workers the other week:
Co-Worker: People in Church are hypocrites. They pretend to be really nice on Sunday, then they’re bastards for the rest of the week.
Christian: No, actually a lot of them are bastards on a Sunday too.
Comment by bethanytwins — December 11, 2008 @ 4:03 am
Or, as a vicar I know responded (tongue in cheek) when a rather verbal ’seeker’ said she didn’t go go church because the people there were all hypocrites, “Oh, don’t let that worry you, there’s always room for one more”.
Comment by Carole — December 11, 2008 @ 9:14 am