Sorry if this is a potentially thread hi-jacking comment (I guess I have a knack for that):
When it comes to the second cartoon, the message was lost on me. All I kept seeing was a pile of dead babies in the background with a blindfold of flags of many nations, including the US and the UK, with the bog words “choice” on the blindfold. The caption was the same. And the number of those killed was a lot higher (50,000,000 since 1973 in the US alone).
yes dorian… very big… very distressing. you’re right that the flags of many, many nations would make good blindfolds. the second cartoon is my poor attempt at venting frustration at the u.s.’s continued commitment to funding israel who are committing the most terrible acts with the resources they are given. i guess i could have chosen many ways of cartooning that subject.
i’m assuming you’re referring to abortion in your second paragraph… obviously i don’t want this thread to take that journey, but i’m sure i’ll be doing that topic again soon.
I agree with Laura. I wonder what will happen in the Middle East when Obama finally takes office (an honest question, I have no idea what his foreign policy is)?
Hamas apparently didn’t learn the “don’t annoy the bared-tooth tiger” lesson from the last time this episode happened (see: Lebanon, Hezbollah). And Israel hasn’t learned the “extreme force does nothing” (see: Iraq, Hezbollah) lesson, either.
And as much as I hate to say it, we (the U.S.) would be out of our league if we were to tackle Zimbabwe, which is essentially a domestic issue from outside (see: Somalia, Iraq). Maybe the U.N. could do something, but they’re slow, and the coalition of South African nations are in much better position to do something, and clearly, they’re not.
In summary, all parties are at fault, and there is nothing short of God on this planet that can really help now without also hurting something else.
Re: the second cartoon. I was also going to make the point that many nations could be that character…but I also think you could read it as the Americans effectively being blindfolded by their own government and media. At least in Britain we know what’s going on (to a greater or lesser extent).
Like Laura said, not all Americans are blindfolded, but unfortunately it seems to the exception rather than the rule.
you’re right laura… my issue is as stated above. american people should be pretty upset at this horrific injustice which it is supporting financially… your tax money i assume. i am critical of the uk too, believe me. all nations who keep quiet are equally shamed, but that cartoon is specifically about american support.
btw. i have some great american friends and am in no way anti-american… but i think it is wrong not to critique even the things you love the most… in fact it is more important i believe.
I don’t have a TV but the reading I have done doesn’t quite make it seem so black and white. The Hamas in Gaza have been launching rockets into Israel, with apparently civilian targets in mind…I dunno it just doesn’t seem like Israel is just being a big bad wolf.
And Hamas is promising “martydom” missions to the “heart of Israel”…I’m not saying I support any of this at all…like I said it just doesn’t seem so one-sided.
if you bulldoze down my neighbourhood and steal my land expect my anger. i too find hamas annoying but what pres bush just said on my tv says it all. he blames hamas for israel’s bombings. if i come round your house and burn it down i am to blame, not you… regardless of whether you put a brick through my window or not. israel is far, far worse than a big bad wolf. this is indescriminate bombing, incurring the deaths of hundreds of innocent palestinians. hundreds! innocent!
they are an occupying force who have systematically taken and bullied palestinians from there homes. zionism is an evil alive and well in the christian church and in much of our western politics. evil, no less. the worst kind of nationalism.
martydom missons to the heart of israel, suicide bombs… very bad, very sad, but just not in the same league. yes, i know there are many innocent israelis living in fear… but the same goes for palestinians who have been putting up with domination and oppression for many, many years.
My back is out, been to ER twice in as many days, using a walker, serious meds, and I’m in the mood to make trouble here just for the recreational value and as a distrasction from the pain.
Re: #12 “if you bulldoze down my neighbourhood and steal my land expect my anger.” –>
Which illustrates the point that None of this would be happening if Joshua, Caleb, and the Israelites had had enough of a spine to tell God just what exactly he could do with himself and please leave the land you promised us to those people already dwelling there, thank you very much.
get well soon forrest, sounds real nasty… that’s an interesting and very thought provoking comment you make too.
there’s lots of great palestinian and israeli people doing good in their land. people from all religious persuasions motivated by love. those who hold the power and those who support them uncritically are culpable. let’s not be among them.
It wasn’t a ball that Abdul threw, it was a deadly rocket – indeed lots of them – although little Abdul may have been told it’s just a game. If someone was lobbing rockets into your backyard, wouldn’t you be calling for the authorities to do something about it?
Yeah, Zionism is very bad. And, no thanks to those aweful Left Behind books, its totally out of control in the American Church. Doesn’t it remind you a little bit of the kind of fights you see little kids having every now and then? Here’s what I mean: Two kids are sitting next to eachother in class, and Kid A keeps poking Kid B, and poking and poking and poking and poking and poking and the teacher doesn’t see. Finally Kid B is pushed to the limits and snaps and pushes Kid A of the chair, for which Kid A starts crying and the teacher, who doesn’t know about the poking, just yells at Kid B…
Again I’m not supporting Israel, but it just doesn’t seem so one sided.
i’d go for that analogy if kid b had a chair. his chair has been taken away. that’s why he is poking. that is why he hates kid a. i’m not saying it is one sided… i’m saying palestine is bullied by israel with the might of the usa behind it. i’m not condoning any evil doing from either side, i am saying that america should stop funding this genocide immediately.
interestingly, your analogy is one i have a lot of sympathy with, as it often seems that global conflict is simply a bigger version of what we saw in the playground as kids. but we hated it then and we should hate it now.
here are some questions i ask…
who owns the land? who keeps taking more of it? who is being walled in? who has had trading blocks put up against it by it’s neighbour? who has lost thousands of homes? who has lost (even in the last week) hundreds of lives? i’m sad to say it is palestine… and the u.s. go on funding this travesty and bush has the gall to lay all the blame (he has no doubt) at the feet of hamas. now i’m not saying hamas are righteous (they ain’t)… but i would say that bush’s view is the one sided view that is allowing all these deaths to occur in this way.
i hope obama shows a defter touch, as clinton did with regards to this issue. i didn’t always agree with clinton, but he at least understood the issues. it is difficult in the states as there are a lot of rich jewish business people who nobody wants to offend… so nobody does.
yes i would peter… i’d want the authorities to give people their land back and make peace. or i suppose could ask them to blow up 300 random people in return for death of my mother and brother.
i don’t know exactly how this all gets reported in the states… but hundreds of lives for a few just isn’t right.
going back to dorians analogy… it’s more like kid a gets poked and poked, so eventually he hits kid b, then goes round kid b’s house and burns it down, shoots his family and a whole bunch of people who had nothing to do with it. then headmaster bush says… yeh, it’s kid b’s fault for all that poking.
I’m really quite glad to see this here. The entire issue upsets me so much I cannot be in the same room with “the news” in The States. It’s still upsetting, but I’m glad to see there are others angered at this situation.
Now if I could just find a way to put the lot of them in “time out” like I treat my students….
jael… i’m just sorry i found it necessary. i’d far rather not have to do cartoons like this, but my conscience gets the better of me and i find i kind of have to. i’d rather do stuff that’s funny in some ways… but this situation just isn’t. i find it too upsetting for words.
Which illustrates the point that None of this would be happening if Joshua, Caleb, and the Israelites had had enough of a spine to tell God just what exactly he could do with himself and please leave the land you promised us to those people already dwelling there, thank you very much.
I live in New York City where our mayor is making a trip to Israel to show solidarity against Hamas – there is little talk of the events such as the destroying of homes at will that lead some to adopt a terrorist response – I went to Israel with a too short stay in Palestine last year and intend to go back this year – Americans need to see for their own eyes what is going on, as our news coverage is woefully inadequate and biased.
From what I can gather Obama has a pro-Israel stance though not as hardlined as Bush – I doubt one could be elected President of the US in 2009 without showing strong support for israel. I am very frustrated that the same religious progressives who campaigned for him are silent now.
Happy New Year all!
When I lived in Egypt we got a closer look at what goes on in the middle-east. For four years, almost every day, one or two palestinians were killed, had their homes bulldozed, were refused admittance to the areas they worked…the big news stories get the attention but believe me there’s as much poking from kid B as kid A. Kid B is poking because he believes kid A is sitting in HIS chair, in HIS classroom and needs clearing out, even though kid A has been there the longest.
thanks Jon, I have been thinking about this a lot recently- can’t help it when what we hear is so horrendous. Our good friend Tim was out with the Palestinians in the summer, his stories are so frightening. My children have asked what is the difference between what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians and what the Germans did to the Jews- a good question I think.
There are so many ancient tribal hatreds, they are the bane of our world – and they don’t come any more ancient than this one. It seems impossible to get inside the heads of either Israeli or Palestinian and really understand, if you are not a part of either tribe youself. I doubt if any of us can see clearly enough to discern accurately, let alone judge or prescribe a solution
What are MY tribal hatreds? (ancient or new). Am I letting go of them, being radical in love, mercy, forgiveness?
Thanks for the link Darren. But how do we respond?, what can we do? that is a question a small group of us in our alt worship are asking at the moment.
If someone decided to control the entire perimeter of your house, only letting through people they choose and the police did very little to help, you’d be pretty annoyed too!
Now, transfer that situation to Gaza’s border with Israel…
Hiya Asboites, good to read your thoughtful comments, and find your hearts open to hearing truth
it’s not easy to see a whole picture of what’s happening, the way News Broadcasts work mitigates against the world seeing a broad picture of how occupied life is for Palestinians on a daily basis
some people argue there is an agenda on the zionist/Israelis side, of extending their control of Palestinian land. following a strategic plan, steadily carried out, bit by bit, since 1948. involving a number of tactics to cover up an illegal land grab, (for a detailed account read the historian Ilan Pappe’s book “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine”)
under these plans Palestinian land has been stolen, bit by bit, walled in or built on, confiscated or at times just built over, as in Hebron where the Palestinian city life carries on beneath the Israeli settlers constructions, with a thin ceiling of chicken wire to keep most of the debri, the Israeli settlers throw down on to the streets below, and the wall continues to circle round, weaving across one of the most beautiful landscapes in the world, to commandeer as much land as possible for settlers
Palestinians have been re-named ‘Arab’s’, or ‘militants’ or ‘terrorists’, with many Palestinians are left wondering why the world doesn’t see what’s happening to them, as their school children face daily taunts and stone throwing from adult Israeli settlers
Further, many Israelis join together with Peacemaking and Christian groups, to protesting at the way Palestinians are being treated (for instance:- ICAHD is a non-violent, direct-action group originally established to oppose and resist Israeli demolition of Palestinian homes in the Occupied Territories, http://www.icahd.org/eng/)
I believe the many peace loving Palestinians deserve our outrage and protest at the further bombing of Gaza, and those who have taken up aggressive action need an opportunity to be heard worldwide. I do not believe silencing people by murder builds peace. in fact I don’t think you can build peace without seeking justice
In mymind ISrael’s actions are long over due. For almost a year Israel has been living in a state of terror being hit by rockets from Gaza. No nation should have to live under such conditions. Now Israel has responded and guess what…the world is upset. No-one was upset when Israel was being attacked, now everyone is upset that Israel is defending itself.
Sadly Hamas is now being defended by many nations. Egypt and Jordon have done a wonderful job supporting Israel. Egypt has put a lot of effort into the blockade of Gaza.
Hamas as you now is a member of the Muslim bortherhood. This organization has tried to overthrow the governments of Egypt and Jordon. It would be besy for the region if Hamas just went away.
Genocide? Estimates of Palestinian Arab deaths in Gaza for the entire air bombardment before the IDF ground forces moved in was about 400. That’s with missiles with high explosive. There were probably more deaths in the Gaza civil war after Hamas took control. In Rwanda there were 800000 killed by people with machetes and AK47s.
Hamas is just as bad as Arafat. They hold back the Palestinian Arabs of Gaza. We don’t hear so much about the West Bank Palestinian Arabs because for all Fateh’s faults at least in recent years they have been more peaceful. Hamas is very good at making the ordinary Palestinian Arabs look poor in the media. Hamas sees the Gazans themselves as propaganda against Israel. Human shields to hide behind.
Maybe I read too much Mark Steyn and Littlegreenfootballs.com
Comment by John Ferguson — January 4, 2009 @ 4:56 pm
it would be best if hamas went away, it would be best if israel stopped stealing land… it would be best, it would be best…
i simply do not know how to respond to someone who thinks the actions of killing civilians on mass is ‘long overdue’. all i can say is, that i think that is the saddest and most upsetting thing i’ve ever read on an asbo thread. i’m sorry mike… i knew this cartoon would stir up views… but that comment makes me realise israel will keep doing what it does and getting away with it. i hope i’m wrong.
i’ve honestly never felt so bleak on an asbo thread.
I always hate it when I try to do the ‘balanced’ bit… I’m one of
the world’s unbalanced people but
1) They’re not throwing rocks, Jon, they’re throwing rockets,
8000 in the last year according to the report I heard on the radio
today.
2) Hamas are still calling for the destruction of Israel. So, if
Israel were to give back land to the Palestinians; do you think
that it would all stop there? What is the basis for
negotiation? Remember, Hamas and Hezbollah are funded by Iran,
who’s president is a Holocaust denier,
3) yes, we are in a chicken and egg situation here, and someone
has to be the first to offer grace, mercy and forgiveness…
where’s a Desmond Tutu when you need him?
4) Zionism an evil? I dunno… a violent self defence not
dissimilar to paranoia? Given Jewish history over the centuries,
in particular the last century? It isn’t just the palestinians who have reason to fear their lives
getting bulldozed!
5) I am bewildered by the Israeli’s behaviour. How they
can’t see what they’re doing as self defeating is amazing.
phew, that’s over, I can now give up any pretence at balance….
Comment by Caroline Too — January 4, 2009 @ 5:06 pm
Somehow, this reminds me of a public transportation dilemma that’s happening here in my place:
The people are reluctant to use the public transport because they claimed that the buses aren’t efficient and frequent.
The buses provider claimed that they can’t make it more efficient and more frequent because people aren’t using their service.
Now, I can almost see a dictator-big-brother-person as a solution to this chicken and egg dilemma…
#30 sonia…your comment about what do we do about made me think for most of the afternoon
i couldn’t come up with any big stuff…but i did remember that their is a small jewish community in my town. so i decided to contact the local synagogue and ask if someone would be happy to speak to me about the conflict.
i realised that my leanings were/are towards the palestinians and what to listen (directly) to a contrary point of view.
ps anyone that uses twitter can follow the conflict via @AJGaza. its an al jazeera feed…so bear that in mind…and it also updates rather alot. if anyone has ‘citizen reporter’ feeds i’d be interested to hear about them
The situation is tragic, yes Hamas should not be throwing grenades. I don’t support Hamas actions but I also do not support the genocide which is happening against the Palestinians, that is a strong word to use, but I believe that is what is happening out there. I am sorry Mike that you feel that this situation is actually anti semitism against the jews (mentioned this on your blog), but I can’t agree with you.
as a christian i believe i am called to pray for and work for peace
at times this means praying for the well being of people and groups who i don’t agree with
i believe offering a welcoming smile and an hand of friendship builds hope, peace and the potential for discussion – without which i can’t share the hope i have in Christ, so hears to finding meeting places and actively making peace – by showing solidarity against injustice, by supporting humanitarian aid, by economic fairness and doing politics with integrity
i believe in God’s eye’s we are all brothers and sisters
yes caroline too. my rock/tank analogy was a scaled down version of the enormity of it all. not meant to be flippant at all.
i believe there will be more *terrost attacks as a result of israel’s recent decisions and the usa’s collusion and our own government’s feebleness.
*terrorism is militarism with a small budget. it is awful and wrong, just like militarism.
caroline too aptly asked where is the demond tutu?… where are the wise leaders? is also my question. i guess wise people seldom force and play their way into positions of power. they’re too busy trying to undo the works of others by showing love.
i think hamas and israel are wrong… both of them. it is the innocent as per usual getting battered and murdered. there is the most horrible irony about israel’s behaviour given it’s recent and distant history… and the most awful sense that once this latest attack ends there will be more innocent israeli lives lost as hamas throw something back.
“i believe offering a welcoming smile and an hand of friendship builds hope, peace and the potential for discussion – without which i can’t share the hope i have in Christ, so hears to finding meeting places and actively making peace – by showing solidarity against injustice, by supporting humanitarian aid, by economic fairness and doing politics with integrity.” me too subo. let’s hope.
sorry john ferguson… your post got stuck. sometimes attached links stop posts getting through immediately and when i spot them i go and set them free. i do not censer posts… at least not to date.
subo: Your first comment brought to mind a phrase which has always stuck with me:
‘Peace is the fruit of justice and can grow on no other true’
I pray for justice and peace on both sides of the conflict. I don’t know enough to make any great political insights but I feel there is nothing sadder than human beings killing and attacking other human beings. We are all God’s creation, called to love each other.
May there be peace in the Middle East Lord.
Comment by theseoldshades — January 4, 2009 @ 11:10 pm
John F,
You are right. I have many Christian friends in Israel. When Hamas took power the church went underground. Hamas started attacking Christians. Hamas as part of the Muslim Brotherhood wants an Islamic state.
This is a sad situation and we need to be in prayer. Many Jewish Christians are in the IDF and are part of this operation.
Maybe the Lord will use this situation to rid the region of Hamas. I know Egypt and Jordon would love that, and Christians would be able to walk the streets again.
‘Peace is the fruit of justice and can grow on no other tree’
Though I believe it is certainly true!
Comment by theseoldshades — January 4, 2009 @ 11:21 pm
Jon,
I think you misunderstood me. In no way did I say that the killing of civilians was overdue. Like most things in the Mid east emotions tend to get in the way of logic.
What I did say was that for seven months the Israeli government has allowed rockets to fall on it’s population and done nothing. Israeli citizens have now swang to the extreme right in frustration. What I did say is that the response is long overdue. If you knew anything about Hamas you would understand just how evil they are. Many Christians in Gaza have been killed since they drove out Fatah. I remeber how the youth pastor of Gaza Baptist church was killed by Hamas. There can be no peace of anyone as long as groups like Fatah exist.
Just like you I weep over the loss of anyone. I have many Christian friends in the region. This whole situation is very sad.
Something said a bit back up the way about pleasing various campaign contributing blocks brings to mind that I think our US embargo on Cuba is not the best thing to do.
Oh well.
Now, keep in mind that my focus and logic are kind of coming and going today from the pain and the meds.
Hey zefi up there in #23.
Hadn’t read it for awhile.
So, did look this up just now: http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/curse.htm
Because of the general natures of people it is my belief that there was going to be trouble of some kind or another for some poeple somewhere no matter who was involved or what was done or not done.
I can’t begin to imagine how to stop this kind of thing except for all involved to reject their basic human nature, disown their religions’ built-in animosities, and to totally forsake their centuries-old cultures of revenge.
And for those who find large personal gains from the chaos to renounce their personal gains.
As long as there is some way for someone, somewhere, to find personal gain from chaos and destruction, there WILL BE chaos and destruction.
And when one of those who gains from this chaos happens to be the prince of the air prowling around to seek whom he might like a lion devour; one then has a matter which it will take much more than the power of mankind to resolve.
One amazing thing about the letter are the groups who have signed it at the end – there are a number of jewish, christian and muslim groups, all different faiths working together…
I pray that people all over the world will protest so strongly that governments will have to step in for peace and humanitarian aid.
This is a quote from an article written by Phyllis Bennis, a Fellow of the Institute for Policy Studies and of the Transnational Institute in Amsterdam. (She’s written books on the israel/palestine subject)
‘Still another violation involves the disproportionate nature of the military attack. The airstrikes have killed at least 270 people so far, injured more than 1,000, many of them seriously, and many remain buried under the rubble so the death toll will likely rise. This catastrophic impact was known and inevitable, and far outweighs any claim of self-defense or protection of Israeli civilians. (It should be noted that this escalation has not made Israelis safer; to the contrary, the one Israeli killed by a Palestinian rocket attack on Saturday after the Israeli assault began, was the first such casualty in more than a year.)’
*I know you are all looking to chastise me for using a different conflict but…. it’s a metaphor!! Look at your bell bottoms and maybe celebrate your buick….
There can be no peace of anyone as long as groups like Fatah exist.
Tell me you meant Hamas.
(It should be noted that this escalation has not made Israelis safer; to the contrary, the one Israeli killed by a Palestinian rocket attack on Saturday after the Israeli assault began, was the first such casualty in more than a year.)
So, the conclusion here is that the Hamas had been very kind or that Israel had been doing well in preventing deaths? (Of her own people, that is)
I know that this is a v simplistic view, but what I don’t understand is why anyone would think that violence will help on the way to peace. If Hamas would prefer Israel not to bomb them, maybe they could think about curbing the granades. If Israel would like Hamas to stop attacking Israel, maybe they could think about accepting Palestine as a neighbour and just get on with life.
It seems to me, that killing people is not going to bring peace.
Also I saw a chap on the news last night who said that Israel’s actions mean that much careful work that has been done to prevent radicalisation of young muslims has gone down the pan. Now, once again, they have a reason to be very angry.
The whole situation is horribly sad. And really Israel’s response seems terribly disproprotionate, and is surely likely to backfire.
Ooops I meant Hamas. Sorry multi-tasking got in the way.
Sophie,
I agree. As far as what can be done, we as Christians need to get invovled in the region. Understand the people. In my experience most Israeli’s and Palestinians want peace. It is the nuts on both sides that are preventing it.
True peace is only through Jesus. Last year on Mount Carmel there was an amazing prayer meeting with Israeli Messianic leaders and their Palestinian brothers. These Pastors cried out to GOD for each other.
Israeli Churches often send relief supplies etc to the Palestinians.
59. It’s not just the nuts – I went on a press trip to Israel in January 2007 sponsored by the Israeli Ministry of Tourism, a governmental entity. I took the trip as it was my chance to see Israel and start to make some connections (which I did and I am going back for some more in-depth reporting). The image we were given was very clearly were along the lines of – the wall is there to protect Israel from the “bad” people with NO discussion of the fact that the Israeli government put these people into god-awful settlements and bulldozes their houses at will. Palestinians can’t even go to Jerusalem, which as you know is a major holy site for both Christians and Muslims as well as the Jews.
I agree both sides are bad but here you have a group of terrorists fighting against the Israeli government. I haven’t seen any sign that the Palestinian National Authority (governing body for Palestine) has approved Hamas’ actions. What fuels the fire is that the US continues to back Israel as though they are the “innocent victims”, as evidenced by the mayor of New York City being there as we speak to show his undying support for Israel). That sickens me that he is showing so little regard for the civilians of Gaza who are stuck there with limited food, medical supplies, etc. This area has been off-limits to tourists and non-war correspondents for years. So, we don’t know the real story.
If Hamas would prefer Israel not to bomb them, maybe they could think about curbing the granades.
I thought what Hamas preferred, or actually wanted is for Israel to get out and get lost? I thought some Hamas leader said something about never gonna “recognize Israel’s right to exist?” You mean, they’ve changed their opinion already?
It seems to me, that killing people is not going to bring peace.
Well, not that I endorse this, but when not killing people is ALSO not bringing peace, worse yet getting your own people killed, there will be people who would want to extinguish the source of their fears. They would prolly rather die fighting than to live constantly in fear of sudden, premature death?
I haven’t seen any sign that the Palestinian National Authority (governing body for Palestine) has approved Hamas’ actions.
Becky – would you say that the Atlantic makes the situation easier for people in the US to deal with? It isn’t so long ago that the IRA were seen as an organisation that could be supported because they were killing people all the way across the ocean.
I have been listening to the Faithless album “To all new arrivals” as I walked the dog today.
I was struck still (literally) as i listened to some lyrics in “Bombs” the first track, and its relationship and commentary of the current situation.
“V1
The key in the door,
the moment i’ve been longing for,
before my bag hits the floor,
my adorable children,
rush up screaming for a kiss and a story
they’re a gift of this world,
my only claim to glory,
i surely never knew sweeter days,
blows my mind like munitions,
i’m amazed.
V2
One bomb, the whole block’s gone
can’t find my children and dust covers the sun,
everywhere is noise, panic and confusion,
but to some another fun day in Babylon.
I’m going to bury my wife, and dig out my gun
my life is done, so now I’ve got to kill someone”
that’s a good question robb. i wasn’t going to raise the ira situation, but following on that theme… it was only when weapons were put down and people got around the table that peace was brokered.
i think becky sums up my feelings well on the matter. i’m glad it came from an american.
You know, this is one of the issues I have been having a lot of discussion with one of my good friends about.
He say, like Jon seems to say, that the blame for the continued conflict is on Israel.
I say that both the israeli and the palestinians, their respective governments and militaries, are both to blame equally.
Let’s just have a look at the parties:
Hamas: Is the democraticly electet government of the palestinians, and use scare tactics and hate vs. israel to gain popularity and stay in power.
Israeli government: Is also democraticly elected, have used hard-line vs. palestinians to gain popularity and power.
Hamas: Attacks Israel with rockets and suicide bombs, prefering civil targets.
Israel: Attacks targets in palestinian areas with conventional military: Mainly tanks and helicopters, often with civilian casualties beside the intended targets.
Also protect new israeli settlements in palestinian areas.
Enforce security zones that makes life difficult for civil palestinians.
Have build a “peace wall” which makes life even harder for palestinians in some areas.
I have yet to find an argument that marks Israel as “the big bad wolf” here.
Both sides are driven by fear, revenge and a “the ends justifies the means”-mentality.
Both sides use their international allies in an attempt to topple the democratic government on the other side.
Now don’t forget that the media in Europe isn’t neutral at all, they are mostly pro-palestinian.
And the reason for this is simple really, there are a lot more palestinians living in europe than there are jews, and it’s the other way around in the states.
From Wikipedia:
Hamas (…) is a Palestinian Sunni paramilitary organization and political party which holds a majority of seats in the elected legislative council of the Palestinian National Authority.
So the PNA is doing nothing to stop Hamas, because Hamas control the PNA.
Throught democratic means, I might add.
hi bo… i’m not for a second saying it is all one sided and that one party is right and the other wrong. you have misunderstood me.
i am saying that the palestinians have been ghettoised, that the israeli attacks are bigger than they’ve received x 100, that america gives to israel all the justification it chooses by supporting it financially and politically. i am saying it is very, very lopsided… weighted one way.
btw. jewish communities have been a major part of our history for centuries… it wasn’t that long ago that our country was out there killing muslims in the name of god. i do believe all media has a bias and we have to try and decipher a lot of what might be true… but, to be fair, our media have not said (to my knowledge) that it is all the fault of one party. what bush said was disgusting… laying all the blame at a ‘terrorist’ organisation whilst failing to see his own part in the problem is foolish in the extreme, and also a soft target in a post 911 america.
i like hamas no more than you do… but to say this is all their fault is ridiculous and yet a view held by many… it is all adding much more fuel to the fire.
there is evil on both sides and also among the populous there is much good… so please don’t misunderstand me.
The scenes in Gaza are horrific. What Israel is doing is morally indefensible, as are the policies of those that defend brutal retaliation – such as the president of the United States of America.
Israel and America are certainly not making many friends in the UK with their politics, policies and tactics. But, hey, they don’t give a **** do they?
Please God, let Obama have even an ounce of sense about the difference between right and wrong. Surely that’s not too much to ask from their elected head of state?
Jesus started a sentence, “You have heard that it was said, eye for eye and tooth for tooth, but I tell you…”
with all the labelling of political affiliations, the racist nature of this conflict becomes obscured.
we like to think of ethnic cleansing, and the obliteration of a people and their culture, as crimes of previous century’s, to which we will never sink to again…
I was a guide on the holocause memorial tour thingy when I was a trainee teacher (we all were). There was nothing more effective to bring home the reality of what you say Subo than meeting a guy who survived the holocaust because of schindler but still lost his family. Not such a dim and distant past.
The key thing he kept saying was “these guys were vote in!”
Makes you think about our current political climate. The last vote I cast was not for the party I wanted, it was a vote to get rid of the BNP – and I would rather have anyone else in than them!
77 – It’s a very relevant point, the National Socialist Party was indeed voted into power, in a fair democratic election.
It seems like every politician in the west think that bringing democracy to the middle east will automaticly make all the problems go away.
Open your eyes, there are two democraticly elected governments in the middle east, the israeli and the palestinian, and those governments are arguably the prime reason for unrest and violence in the middle east region.
Not that I would talk against promoting democracy in the middle east, I like freedom of religion, the right to not be tortured and to vote for a party that actually care about their population, but perhaps it is overrated.
After reading the stuff said in this post, I’ve come to the conclusion that the only way this thing could end is by not having a country called Israel, because that’s what Hamas wanted and they would not stop poking till that’s achieved. (and I doubt that they would settle for anything less)
Now, that’s 99.99% impossible. There. It’s settled. There’s no solution to the problem, only prolonging of the inevitable.
Now, the only thing I’m hoping is that when Iran said that their nuclear programme is just for the sake of electricity, IT REALLY IS!
Gosh Zefi, that’s a bleak way of looking at it! I wonder if, given time, both Israel and Palestine will realise that they are both there to stay, and then come to the conclusion that they might as well stop bombing each other. I hope so at any rate.
Thanks you for posting this. Goode image for talking pictures.
Comment by Bunmi Otubushin — January 12, 2009 @ 3:49 pm
Jon, I usually really like your panels, but i gotta say, this one is way to political for me, and too much finger pointing.
Christ never talked about how evil Rome was for what it was doing, he just talked about what was wrong with humanity and how we can fix it.
Comment by scanartist — January 12, 2009 @ 7:26 pm
Genocide….not even close. It is survival. We don’t need these knee jerk reactions to what the liberal press is reporting.
Sorry if this is a potentially thread hi-jacking comment (I guess I have a knack for that):
When it comes to the second cartoon, the message was lost on me. All I kept seeing was a pile of dead babies in the background with a blindfold of flags of many nations, including the US and the UK, with the bog words “choice” on the blindfold. The caption was the same. And the number of those killed was a lot higher (50,000,000 since 1973 in the US alone).
sigh….
Comment by Dorian — January 3, 2009 @ 7:22 pm
*big
Comment by Dorian — January 3, 2009 @ 7:23 pm
619: Yes, and what about Mugabe? There doesn’t even seem to be a debate about whether we actually DO anything.
Comment by JF — January 3, 2009 @ 7:31 pm
Not all Americans are blindfolded. And not all the blindfolded are American.
Comment by Laura — January 3, 2009 @ 7:37 pm
yes dorian… very big… very distressing. you’re right that the flags of many, many nations would make good blindfolds. the second cartoon is my poor attempt at venting frustration at the u.s.’s continued commitment to funding israel who are committing the most terrible acts with the resources they are given. i guess i could have chosen many ways of cartooning that subject.
i’m assuming you’re referring to abortion in your second paragraph… obviously i don’t want this thread to take that journey, but i’m sure i’ll be doing that topic again soon.
Comment by jonbirch — January 3, 2009 @ 7:40 pm
I agree with Laura. I wonder what will happen in the Middle East when Obama finally takes office (an honest question, I have no idea what his foreign policy is)?
Comment by Dorian — January 3, 2009 @ 7:48 pm
Oooh. Touchy topic.
Hamas apparently didn’t learn the “don’t annoy the bared-tooth tiger” lesson from the last time this episode happened (see: Lebanon, Hezbollah). And Israel hasn’t learned the “extreme force does nothing” (see: Iraq, Hezbollah) lesson, either.
And as much as I hate to say it, we (the U.S.) would be out of our league if we were to tackle Zimbabwe, which is essentially a domestic issue from outside (see: Somalia, Iraq). Maybe the U.N. could do something, but they’re slow, and the coalition of South African nations are in much better position to do something, and clearly, they’re not.
In summary, all parties are at fault, and there is nothing short of God on this planet that can really help now without also hurting something else.
-Rob
Carol Stream, IL
Comment by Rob — January 3, 2009 @ 7:49 pm
Re: the second cartoon. I was also going to make the point that many nations could be that character…but I also think you could read it as the Americans effectively being blindfolded by their own government and media. At least in Britain we know what’s going on (to a greater or lesser extent).
Like Laura said, not all Americans are blindfolded, but unfortunately it seems to the exception rather than the rule.
Comment by LizC — January 3, 2009 @ 7:49 pm
yes jf. very, very upsetting.
you’re right laura… my issue is as stated above. american people should be pretty upset at this horrific injustice which it is supporting financially… your tax money i assume. i am critical of the uk too, believe me. all nations who keep quiet are equally shamed, but that cartoon is specifically about american support.
btw. i have some great american friends and am in no way anti-american… but i think it is wrong not to critique even the things you love the most… in fact it is more important i believe.
Comment by jonbirch — January 3, 2009 @ 7:50 pm
I don’t have a TV but the reading I have done doesn’t quite make it seem so black and white. The Hamas in Gaza have been launching rockets into Israel, with apparently civilian targets in mind…I dunno it just doesn’t seem like Israel is just being a big bad wolf.
Comment by Dorian — January 3, 2009 @ 8:08 pm
And Hamas is promising “martydom” missions to the “heart of Israel”…I’m not saying I support any of this at all…like I said it just doesn’t seem so one-sided.
Comment by Dorian — January 3, 2009 @ 8:13 pm
if you bulldoze down my neighbourhood and steal my land expect my anger. i too find hamas annoying but what pres bush just said on my tv says it all. he blames hamas for israel’s bombings. if i come round your house and burn it down i am to blame, not you… regardless of whether you put a brick through my window or not. israel is far, far worse than a big bad wolf. this is indescriminate bombing, incurring the deaths of hundreds of innocent palestinians. hundreds! innocent!
they are an occupying force who have systematically taken and bullied palestinians from there homes. zionism is an evil alive and well in the christian church and in much of our western politics. evil, no less. the worst kind of nationalism.
martydom missons to the heart of israel, suicide bombs… very bad, very sad, but just not in the same league. yes, i know there are many innocent israelis living in fear… but the same goes for palestinians who have been putting up with domination and oppression for many, many years.
Comment by jonbirch — January 3, 2009 @ 8:31 pm
My back is out, been to ER twice in as many days, using a walker, serious meds, and I’m in the mood to make trouble here just for the recreational value and as a distrasction from the pain.
Re: #12 “if you bulldoze down my neighbourhood and steal my land expect my anger.” –>
Which illustrates the point that None of this would be happening if Joshua, Caleb, and the Israelites had had enough of a spine to tell God just what exactly he could do with himself and please leave the land you promised us to those people already dwelling there, thank you very much.
Comment by Forrest — January 3, 2009 @ 8:46 pm
It’s horrid. Pray for Jesus to return.
Comment by ED... — January 3, 2009 @ 8:49 pm
get well soon forrest, sounds real nasty… that’s an interesting and very thought provoking comment you make too.
there’s lots of great palestinian and israeli people doing good in their land. people from all religious persuasions motivated by love. those who hold the power and those who support them uncritically are culpable. let’s not be among them.
Comment by jonbirch — January 3, 2009 @ 9:41 pm
It wasn’t a ball that Abdul threw, it was a deadly rocket – indeed lots of them – although little Abdul may have been told it’s just a game. If someone was lobbing rockets into your backyard, wouldn’t you be calling for the authorities to do something about it?
Comment by Peter Kirk — January 3, 2009 @ 9:55 pm
Yeah, Zionism is very bad. And, no thanks to those aweful Left Behind books, its totally out of control in the American Church. Doesn’t it remind you a little bit of the kind of fights you see little kids having every now and then? Here’s what I mean: Two kids are sitting next to eachother in class, and Kid A keeps poking Kid B, and poking and poking and poking and poking and poking and the teacher doesn’t see. Finally Kid B is pushed to the limits and snaps and pushes Kid A of the chair, for which Kid A starts crying and the teacher, who doesn’t know about the poking, just yells at Kid B…
Again I’m not supporting Israel, but it just doesn’t seem so one sided.
Comment by Dorian — January 3, 2009 @ 10:49 pm
i’d go for that analogy if kid b had a chair. his chair has been taken away. that’s why he is poking. that is why he hates kid a. i’m not saying it is one sided… i’m saying palestine is bullied by israel with the might of the usa behind it. i’m not condoning any evil doing from either side, i am saying that america should stop funding this genocide immediately.
interestingly, your analogy is one i have a lot of sympathy with, as it often seems that global conflict is simply a bigger version of what we saw in the playground as kids. but we hated it then and we should hate it now.
here are some questions i ask…
who owns the land? who keeps taking more of it? who is being walled in? who has had trading blocks put up against it by it’s neighbour? who has lost thousands of homes? who has lost (even in the last week) hundreds of lives? i’m sad to say it is palestine… and the u.s. go on funding this travesty and bush has the gall to lay all the blame (he has no doubt) at the feet of hamas. now i’m not saying hamas are righteous (they ain’t)… but i would say that bush’s view is the one sided view that is allowing all these deaths to occur in this way.
i hope obama shows a defter touch, as clinton did with regards to this issue. i didn’t always agree with clinton, but he at least understood the issues. it is difficult in the states as there are a lot of rich jewish business people who nobody wants to offend… so nobody does.
yes i would peter… i’d want the authorities to give people their land back and make peace. or i suppose could ask them to blow up 300 random people in return for death of my mother and brother.
i don’t know exactly how this all gets reported in the states… but hundreds of lives for a few just isn’t right.
going back to dorians analogy… it’s more like kid a gets poked and poked, so eventually he hits kid b, then goes round kid b’s house and burns it down, shoots his family and a whole bunch of people who had nothing to do with it. then headmaster bush says… yeh, it’s kid b’s fault for all that poking.
Comment by jonbirch — January 4, 2009 @ 12:48 am
I’m really quite glad to see this here. The entire issue upsets me so much I cannot be in the same room with “the news” in The States. It’s still upsetting, but I’m glad to see there are others angered at this situation.
Now if I could just find a way to put the lot of them in “time out” like I treat my students….
Comment by JAEL — January 4, 2009 @ 1:01 am
A tragic situation all around. I think we can all agree on that.
Comment by Dorian — January 4, 2009 @ 1:27 am
Although I didn’t see it until I read your comment, Jon, the chair part of the analogy does bear an uncanny resemblance to the whole situation….
Comment by Dorian — January 4, 2009 @ 1:28 am
yes… very sad all round… agreed dorian.
jael… i’m just sorry i found it necessary. i’d far rather not have to do cartoons like this, but my conscience gets the better of me and i find i kind of have to. i’d rather do stuff that’s funny in some ways… but this situation just isn’t. i find it too upsetting for words.
Comment by jonbirch — January 4, 2009 @ 2:04 am
Have you ever Deuteronomy 9:5?
Comment by zefi — January 4, 2009 @ 5:20 am
I live in New York City where our mayor is making a trip to Israel to show solidarity against Hamas – there is little talk of the events such as the destroying of homes at will that lead some to adopt a terrorist response – I went to Israel with a too short stay in Palestine last year and intend to go back this year – Americans need to see for their own eyes what is going on, as our news coverage is woefully inadequate and biased.
From what I can gather Obama has a pro-Israel stance though not as hardlined as Bush – I doubt one could be elected President of the US in 2009 without showing strong support for israel. I am very frustrated that the same religious progressives who campaigned for him are silent now.
Comment by becky — January 4, 2009 @ 6:52 am
Happy New Year all!
When I lived in Egypt we got a closer look at what goes on in the middle-east. For four years, almost every day, one or two palestinians were killed, had their homes bulldozed, were refused admittance to the areas they worked…the big news stories get the attention but believe me there’s as much poking from kid B as kid A. Kid B is poking because he believes kid A is sitting in HIS chair, in HIS classroom and needs clearing out, even though kid A has been there the longest.
Comment by botticelliwoman — January 4, 2009 @ 9:36 am
cheers jon, can i take this one to the peace vigil’s in Bristol?
Comment by subo — January 4, 2009 @ 9:55 am
thanks Jon, I have been thinking about this a lot recently- can’t help it when what we hear is so horrendous. Our good friend Tim was out with the Palestinians in the summer, his stories are so frightening. My children have asked what is the difference between what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians and what the Germans did to the Jews- a good question I think.
Comment by soniamain — January 4, 2009 @ 10:08 am
There are so many ancient tribal hatreds, they are the bane of our world – and they don’t come any more ancient than this one. It seems impossible to get inside the heads of either Israeli or Palestinian and really understand, if you are not a part of either tribe youself. I doubt if any of us can see clearly enough to discern accurately, let alone judge or prescribe a solution
What are MY tribal hatreds? (ancient or new). Am I letting go of them, being radical in love, mercy, forgiveness?
No
Comment by Chris F — January 4, 2009 @ 10:19 am
i found this read in the guardian informative
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/30/israel-and-the-palestinians-middle-east
Comment by darrin — January 4, 2009 @ 12:18 pm
Thanks for the link Darren. But how do we respond?, what can we do? that is a question a small group of us in our alt worship are asking at the moment.
Comment by soniamain — January 4, 2009 @ 1:17 pm
If someone decided to control the entire perimeter of your house, only letting through people they choose and the police did very little to help, you’d be pretty annoyed too!
Now, transfer that situation to Gaza’s border with Israel…
Comment by Ros — January 4, 2009 @ 1:17 pm
thank you people for wrestling with this.
sonia… i too think that your children asked a pertinent question.
yes subo of course you can use them.
Comment by jonbirch — January 4, 2009 @ 3:56 pm
Hiya Asboites, good to read your thoughtful comments, and find your hearts open to hearing truth
it’s not easy to see a whole picture of what’s happening, the way News Broadcasts work mitigates against the world seeing a broad picture of how occupied life is for Palestinians on a daily basis
some people argue there is an agenda on the zionist/Israelis side, of extending their control of Palestinian land. following a strategic plan, steadily carried out, bit by bit, since 1948. involving a number of tactics to cover up an illegal land grab, (for a detailed account read the historian Ilan Pappe’s book “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine”)
under these plans Palestinian land has been stolen, bit by bit, walled in or built on, confiscated or at times just built over, as in Hebron where the Palestinian city life carries on beneath the Israeli settlers constructions, with a thin ceiling of chicken wire to keep most of the debri, the Israeli settlers throw down on to the streets below, and the wall continues to circle round, weaving across one of the most beautiful landscapes in the world, to commandeer as much land as possible for settlers
Palestinians have been re-named ‘Arab’s’, or ‘militants’ or ‘terrorists’, with many Palestinians are left wondering why the world doesn’t see what’s happening to them, as their school children face daily taunts and stone throwing from adult Israeli settlers
Further, many Israelis join together with Peacemaking and Christian groups, to protesting at the way Palestinians are being treated (for instance:- ICAHD is a non-violent, direct-action group originally established to oppose and resist Israeli demolition of Palestinian homes in the Occupied Territories, http://www.icahd.org/eng/)
I believe the many peace loving Palestinians deserve our outrage and protest at the further bombing of Gaza, and those who have taken up aggressive action need an opportunity to be heard worldwide. I do not believe silencing people by murder builds peace. in fact I don’t think you can build peace without seeking justice
Comment by subo — January 4, 2009 @ 4:34 pm
This really is the topic of the day.
In mymind ISrael’s actions are long over due. For almost a year Israel has been living in a state of terror being hit by rockets from Gaza. No nation should have to live under such conditions. Now Israel has responded and guess what…the world is upset. No-one was upset when Israel was being attacked, now everyone is upset that Israel is defending itself.
Sadly Hamas is now being defended by many nations. Egypt and Jordon have done a wonderful job supporting Israel. Egypt has put a lot of effort into the blockade of Gaza.
Hamas as you now is a member of the Muslim bortherhood. This organization has tried to overthrow the governments of Egypt and Jordon. It would be besy for the region if Hamas just went away.
I have blogged on this subject myself at: http://theupperroom.typepad.com/the_upper_room/2008/12/an-antisemitisum-that-just-wont-die.html
Comment by Mike — January 4, 2009 @ 4:34 pm
Genocide? Estimates of Palestinian Arab deaths in Gaza for the entire air bombardment before the IDF ground forces moved in was about 400. That’s with missiles with high explosive. There were probably more deaths in the Gaza civil war after Hamas took control. In Rwanda there were 800000 killed by people with machetes and AK47s.
Hamas is just as bad as Arafat. They hold back the Palestinian Arabs of Gaza. We don’t hear so much about the West Bank Palestinian Arabs because for all Fateh’s faults at least in recent years they have been more peaceful. Hamas is very good at making the ordinary Palestinian Arabs look poor in the media. Hamas sees the Gazans themselves as propaganda against Israel. Human shields to hide behind.
Maybe I read too much Mark Steyn and Littlegreenfootballs.com
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/gaza-israel-think-2272631-hamas-president
http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/ipc_e007.pdf
Comment by John Ferguson — January 4, 2009 @ 4:56 pm
it would be best if hamas went away, it would be best if israel stopped stealing land… it would be best, it would be best…
i simply do not know how to respond to someone who thinks the actions of killing civilians on mass is ‘long overdue’. all i can say is, that i think that is the saddest and most upsetting thing i’ve ever read on an asbo thread. i’m sorry mike… i knew this cartoon would stir up views… but that comment makes me realise israel will keep doing what it does and getting away with it. i hope i’m wrong.
i’ve honestly never felt so bleak on an asbo thread.
Comment by jonbirch — January 4, 2009 @ 5:03 pm
on a happier note… no ones bombing me and my family… so hey ho, all is well!
Comment by jonbirch — January 4, 2009 @ 5:05 pm
I always hate it when I try to do the ‘balanced’ bit… I’m one of
the world’s unbalanced people but
1) They’re not throwing rocks, Jon, they’re throwing rockets,
8000 in the last year according to the report I heard on the radio
today.
2) Hamas are still calling for the destruction of Israel. So, if
Israel were to give back land to the Palestinians; do you think
that it would all stop there? What is the basis for
negotiation? Remember, Hamas and Hezbollah are funded by Iran,
who’s president is a Holocaust denier,
3) yes, we are in a chicken and egg situation here, and someone
has to be the first to offer grace, mercy and forgiveness…
where’s a Desmond Tutu when you need him?
4) Zionism an evil? I dunno… a violent self defence not
dissimilar to paranoia? Given Jewish history over the centuries,
in particular the last century? It isn’t just the palestinians who have reason to fear their lives
getting bulldozed!
5) I am bewildered by the Israeli’s behaviour. How they
can’t see what they’re doing as self defeating is amazing.
phew, that’s over, I can now give up any pretence at balance….
Comment by Caroline Too — January 4, 2009 @ 5:06 pm
Somehow, this reminds me of a public transportation dilemma that’s happening here in my place:
The people are reluctant to use the public transport because they claimed that the buses aren’t efficient and frequent.
The buses provider claimed that they can’t make it more efficient and more frequent because people aren’t using their service.
Now, I can almost see a dictator-big-brother-person as a solution to this chicken and egg dilemma…
Comment by zefi — January 4, 2009 @ 5:09 pm
#30 sonia…your comment about what do we do about made me think for most of the afternoon
i couldn’t come up with any big stuff…but i did remember that their is a small jewish community in my town. so i decided to contact the local synagogue and ask if someone would be happy to speak to me about the conflict.
i realised that my leanings were/are towards the palestinians and what to listen (directly) to a contrary point of view.
anyway i’ll see what happens
Comment by darrin — January 4, 2009 @ 5:11 pm
ps anyone that uses twitter can follow the conflict via @AJGaza. its an al jazeera feed…so bear that in mind…and it also updates rather alot. if anyone has ‘citizen reporter’ feeds i’d be interested to hear about them
Comment by darrin — January 4, 2009 @ 5:15 pm
The situation is tragic, yes Hamas should not be throwing grenades. I don’t support Hamas actions but I also do not support the genocide which is happening against the Palestinians, that is a strong word to use, but I believe that is what is happening out there. I am sorry Mike that you feel that this situation is actually anti semitism against the jews (mentioned this on your blog), but I can’t agree with you.
Comment by soniamain — January 4, 2009 @ 5:17 pm
I’d be interested to hear what happens darrin, that’s a good idea trying to speak to a jewish community.
Comment by soniamain — January 4, 2009 @ 5:23 pm
as a christian i believe i am called to pray for and work for peace
at times this means praying for the well being of people and groups who i don’t agree with
i believe offering a welcoming smile and an hand of friendship builds hope, peace and the potential for discussion – without which i can’t share the hope i have in Christ, so hears to finding meeting places and actively making peace – by showing solidarity against injustice, by supporting humanitarian aid, by economic fairness and doing politics with integrity
i believe in God’s eye’s we are all brothers and sisters
Comment by subo — January 4, 2009 @ 7:17 pm
yes caroline too. my rock/tank analogy was a scaled down version of the enormity of it all. not meant to be flippant at all.
i believe there will be more *terrost attacks as a result of israel’s recent decisions and the usa’s collusion and our own government’s feebleness.
*terrorism is militarism with a small budget. it is awful and wrong, just like militarism.
caroline too aptly asked where is the demond tutu?… where are the wise leaders? is also my question. i guess wise people seldom force and play their way into positions of power. they’re too busy trying to undo the works of others by showing love.
i think hamas and israel are wrong… both of them. it is the innocent as per usual getting battered and murdered. there is the most horrible irony about israel’s behaviour given it’s recent and distant history… and the most awful sense that once this latest attack ends there will be more innocent israeli lives lost as hamas throw something back.
“i believe offering a welcoming smile and an hand of friendship builds hope, peace and the potential for discussion – without which i can’t share the hope i have in Christ, so hears to finding meeting places and actively making peace – by showing solidarity against injustice, by supporting humanitarian aid, by economic fairness and doing politics with integrity.” me too subo. let’s hope.
Comment by jonbirch — January 4, 2009 @ 9:34 pm
sorry john ferguson… your post got stuck. sometimes attached links stop posts getting through immediately and when i spot them i go and set them free. i do not censer posts… at least not to date.
Comment by jonbirch — January 4, 2009 @ 9:44 pm
subo: Your first comment brought to mind a phrase which has always stuck with me:
‘Peace is the fruit of justice and can grow on no other true’
I pray for justice and peace on both sides of the conflict. I don’t know enough to make any great political insights but I feel there is nothing sadder than human beings killing and attacking other human beings. We are all God’s creation, called to love each other.
May there be peace in the Middle East Lord.
Comment by theseoldshades — January 4, 2009 @ 11:10 pm
John F,
You are right. I have many Christian friends in Israel. When Hamas took power the church went underground. Hamas started attacking Christians. Hamas as part of the Muslim Brotherhood wants an Islamic state.
This is a sad situation and we need to be in prayer. Many Jewish Christians are in the IDF and are part of this operation.
Maybe the Lord will use this situation to rid the region of Hamas. I know Egypt and Jordon would love that, and Christians would be able to walk the streets again.
Comment by Mike — January 4, 2009 @ 11:16 pm
That should be
‘Peace is the fruit of justice and can grow on no other tree’
Though I believe it is certainly true!
Comment by theseoldshades — January 4, 2009 @ 11:21 pm
Jon,
I think you misunderstood me. In no way did I say that the killing of civilians was overdue. Like most things in the Mid east emotions tend to get in the way of logic.
What I did say was that for seven months the Israeli government has allowed rockets to fall on it’s population and done nothing. Israeli citizens have now swang to the extreme right in frustration. What I did say is that the response is long overdue. If you knew anything about Hamas you would understand just how evil they are. Many Christians in Gaza have been killed since they drove out Fatah. I remeber how the youth pastor of Gaza Baptist church was killed by Hamas. There can be no peace of anyone as long as groups like Fatah exist.
Just like you I weep over the loss of anyone. I have many Christian friends in the region. This whole situation is very sad.
Comment by Mike — January 4, 2009 @ 11:23 pm
Something said a bit back up the way about pleasing various campaign contributing blocks brings to mind that I think our US embargo on Cuba is not the best thing to do.
Oh well.
Now, keep in mind that my focus and logic are kind of coming and going today from the pain and the meds.
Hey zefi up there in #23.
Hadn’t read it for awhile.
So, did look this up just now: http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/curse.htm
Because of the general natures of people it is my belief that there was going to be trouble of some kind or another for some poeple somewhere no matter who was involved or what was done or not done.
I can’t begin to imagine how to stop this kind of thing except for all involved to reject their basic human nature, disown their religions’ built-in animosities, and to totally forsake their centuries-old cultures of revenge.
And for those who find large personal gains from the chaos to renounce their personal gains.
As long as there is some way for someone, somewhere, to find personal gain from chaos and destruction, there WILL BE chaos and destruction.
And when one of those who gains from this chaos happens to be the prince of the air prowling around to seek whom he might like a lion devour; one then has a matter which it will take much more than the power of mankind to resolve.
Truly this earth is a planet of tears.
Comment by Forrest — January 4, 2009 @ 11:43 pm
There is a website http://www.endtheoccupation.org devoted to the Gaza situation. They have an excellent open letter to President elect Obama asking for a number of things: http://www.endtheoccupation.org/form.php?modin=137
One amazing thing about the letter are the groups who have signed it at the end – there are a number of jewish, christian and muslim groups, all different faiths working together…
I pray that people all over the world will protest so strongly that governments will have to step in for peace and humanitarian aid.
Comment by Cate — January 4, 2009 @ 11:50 pm
Another post, sorry:
This is a quote from an article written by Phyllis Bennis, a Fellow of the Institute for Policy Studies and of the Transnational Institute in Amsterdam. (She’s written books on the israel/palestine subject)
‘Still another violation involves the disproportionate nature of the military attack. The airstrikes have killed at least 270 people so far, injured more than 1,000, many of them seriously, and many remain buried under the rubble so the death toll will likely rise. This catastrophic impact was known and inevitable, and far outweighs any claim of self-defense or protection of Israeli civilians. (It should be noted that this escalation has not made Israelis safer; to the contrary, the one Israeli killed by a Palestinian rocket attack on Saturday after the Israeli assault began, was the first such casualty in more than a year.)’
You can see the whole article here: http://www.zmag.org/zspace/commentaries/3727
Comment by Cate — January 5, 2009 @ 12:02 am
‘An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind’ Mahatma Ghandi
Comment by Henry — January 5, 2009 @ 12:08 am
Oh crap – I’m being dragged into it. I don’t want to be. Just to be clear – my drummer is Jewish. I have many Jewish friends…
A war is where you have two armies…*
*I know you are all looking to chastise me for using a different conflict but…. it’s a metaphor!! Look at your bell bottoms and maybe celebrate your buick….
Comment by Robb — January 5, 2009 @ 12:30 am
Tell me you meant Hamas.
So, the conclusion here is that the Hamas had been very kind or that Israel had been doing well in preventing deaths? (Of her own people, that is)
Comment by zefi — January 5, 2009 @ 12:49 pm
yup henry… the mahatma was wise.
Comment by jonbirch — January 5, 2009 @ 1:21 pm
I know that this is a v simplistic view, but what I don’t understand is why anyone would think that violence will help on the way to peace. If Hamas would prefer Israel not to bomb them, maybe they could think about curbing the granades. If Israel would like Hamas to stop attacking Israel, maybe they could think about accepting Palestine as a neighbour and just get on with life.
It seems to me, that killing people is not going to bring peace.
Also I saw a chap on the news last night who said that Israel’s actions mean that much careful work that has been done to prevent radicalisation of young muslims has gone down the pan. Now, once again, they have a reason to be very angry.
The whole situation is horribly sad. And really Israel’s response seems terribly disproprotionate, and is surely likely to backfire.
Is there anything that we can do?
Comment by Sophie — January 5, 2009 @ 1:58 pm
Zefi,
Ooops I meant Hamas. Sorry multi-tasking got in the way.
Sophie,
I agree. As far as what can be done, we as Christians need to get invovled in the region. Understand the people. In my experience most Israeli’s and Palestinians want peace. It is the nuts on both sides that are preventing it.
True peace is only through Jesus. Last year on Mount Carmel there was an amazing prayer meeting with Israeli Messianic leaders and their Palestinian brothers. These Pastors cried out to GOD for each other.
Israeli Churches often send relief supplies etc to the Palestinians.
Comment by Mike — January 5, 2009 @ 2:27 pm
59. It’s not just the nuts – I went on a press trip to Israel in January 2007 sponsored by the Israeli Ministry of Tourism, a governmental entity. I took the trip as it was my chance to see Israel and start to make some connections (which I did and I am going back for some more in-depth reporting). The image we were given was very clearly were along the lines of – the wall is there to protect Israel from the “bad” people with NO discussion of the fact that the Israeli government put these people into god-awful settlements and bulldozes their houses at will. Palestinians can’t even go to Jerusalem, which as you know is a major holy site for both Christians and Muslims as well as the Jews.
I agree both sides are bad but here you have a group of terrorists fighting against the Israeli government. I haven’t seen any sign that the Palestinian National Authority (governing body for Palestine) has approved Hamas’ actions. What fuels the fire is that the US continues to back Israel as though they are the “innocent victims”, as evidenced by the mayor of New York City being there as we speak to show his undying support for Israel). That sickens me that he is showing so little regard for the civilians of Gaza who are stuck there with limited food, medical supplies, etc. This area has been off-limits to tourists and non-war correspondents for years. So, we don’t know the real story.
Comment by becky — January 5, 2009 @ 3:10 pm
I thought what Hamas preferred, or actually wanted is for Israel to get out and get lost? I thought some Hamas leader said something about never gonna “recognize Israel’s right to exist?” You mean, they’ve changed their opinion already?
Well, not that I endorse this, but when not killing people is ALSO not bringing peace, worse yet getting your own people killed, there will be people who would want to extinguish the source of their fears. They would prolly rather die fighting than to live constantly in fear of sudden, premature death?
And what are the PNA doing to stop Hamas’ action?
Comment by zefi — January 5, 2009 @ 3:45 pm
Becky – would you say that the Atlantic makes the situation easier for people in the US to deal with? It isn’t so long ago that the IRA were seen as an organisation that could be supported because they were killing people all the way across the ocean.
Comment by Robb — January 5, 2009 @ 3:55 pm
I have been listening to the Faithless album “To all new arrivals” as I walked the dog today.
I was struck still (literally) as i listened to some lyrics in “Bombs” the first track, and its relationship and commentary of the current situation.
“V1
The key in the door,
the moment i’ve been longing for,
before my bag hits the floor,
my adorable children,
rush up screaming for a kiss and a story
they’re a gift of this world,
my only claim to glory,
i surely never knew sweeter days,
blows my mind like munitions,
i’m amazed.
V2
One bomb, the whole block’s gone
can’t find my children and dust covers the sun,
everywhere is noise, panic and confusion,
but to some another fun day in Babylon.
I’m going to bury my wife, and dig out my gun
my life is done, so now I’ve got to kill someone”
Comment by Jonathan — January 5, 2009 @ 5:03 pm
that’s a good question robb. i wasn’t going to raise the ira situation, but following on that theme… it was only when weapons were put down and people got around the table that peace was brokered.
i think becky sums up my feelings well on the matter. i’m glad it came from an american.
Comment by jonbirch — January 5, 2009 @ 5:18 pm
Trust the yorkshireman to bring a shovel when a spade was required
Comment by Robb — January 6, 2009 @ 1:52 am
you know the difference between a shovel and a spade and you call them what they are. it’s a good characteristic to have.
Comment by jonbirch — January 6, 2009 @ 3:01 am
You know, this is one of the issues I have been having a lot of discussion with one of my good friends about.
He say, like Jon seems to say, that the blame for the continued conflict is on Israel.
I say that both the israeli and the palestinians, their respective governments and militaries, are both to blame equally.
Let’s just have a look at the parties:
Hamas: Is the democraticly electet government of the palestinians, and use scare tactics and hate vs. israel to gain popularity and stay in power.
Israeli government: Is also democraticly elected, have used hard-line vs. palestinians to gain popularity and power.
Hamas: Attacks Israel with rockets and suicide bombs, prefering civil targets.
Israel: Attacks targets in palestinian areas with conventional military: Mainly tanks and helicopters, often with civilian casualties beside the intended targets.
Also protect new israeli settlements in palestinian areas.
Enforce security zones that makes life difficult for civil palestinians.
Have build a “peace wall” which makes life even harder for palestinians in some areas.
I have yet to find an argument that marks Israel as “the big bad wolf” here.
Both sides are driven by fear, revenge and a “the ends justifies the means”-mentality.
Both sides use their international allies in an attempt to topple the democratic government on the other side.
Now don’t forget that the media in Europe isn’t neutral at all, they are mostly pro-palestinian.
And the reason for this is simple really, there are a lot more palestinians living in europe than there are jews, and it’s the other way around in the states.
Comment by Bo — January 6, 2009 @ 10:14 am
And I should add:
Both sides view themselves as victims, being picked on by an irrational aggressor who cannot be reasoned with.
Comment by Bo — January 6, 2009 @ 10:18 am
“what are the PNA doing to stop Hamas’ action?”
From Wikipedia:
Hamas (…) is a Palestinian Sunni paramilitary organization and political party which holds a majority of seats in the elected legislative council of the Palestinian National Authority.
So the PNA is doing nothing to stop Hamas, because Hamas control the PNA.
Throught democratic means, I might add.
Comment by Bo — January 6, 2009 @ 10:34 am
hi bo… i’m not for a second saying it is all one sided and that one party is right and the other wrong. you have misunderstood me.
i am saying that the palestinians have been ghettoised, that the israeli attacks are bigger than they’ve received x 100, that america gives to israel all the justification it chooses by supporting it financially and politically. i am saying it is very, very lopsided… weighted one way.
btw. jewish communities have been a major part of our history for centuries… it wasn’t that long ago that our country was out there killing muslims in the name of god. i do believe all media has a bias and we have to try and decipher a lot of what might be true… but, to be fair, our media have not said (to my knowledge) that it is all the fault of one party. what bush said was disgusting… laying all the blame at a ‘terrorist’ organisation whilst failing to see his own part in the problem is foolish in the extreme, and also a soft target in a post 911 america.
i like hamas no more than you do… but to say this is all their fault is ridiculous and yet a view held by many… it is all adding much more fuel to the fire.
there is evil on both sides and also among the populous there is much good… so please don’t misunderstand me.
Comment by jonbirch — January 6, 2009 @ 12:23 pm
Brilliant cartoons.
Comment by Razzler — January 6, 2009 @ 2:05 pm
thank you razzler.
Comment by jonbirch — January 6, 2009 @ 3:09 pm
So now 40 people are reported to have been killed in a UN run school in Gaza.
Tony Blair thinks a ceasefire is possible, but seems to place all the emphasis on Hamas.
Where is this we’re heading to, and why are we all in this handcart?
Comment by baptistjon — January 6, 2009 @ 4:49 pm
The scenes in Gaza are horrific. What Israel is doing is morally indefensible, as are the policies of those that defend brutal retaliation – such as the president of the United States of America.
Israel and America are certainly not making many friends in the UK with their politics, policies and tactics. But, hey, they don’t give a **** do they?
Please God, let Obama have even an ounce of sense about the difference between right and wrong. Surely that’s not too much to ask from their elected head of state?
Jesus started a sentence, “You have heard that it was said, eye for eye and tooth for tooth, but I tell you…”
Comment by TyTe — January 6, 2009 @ 8:39 pm
yes gav… and ‘do unto others as you’d have them do unto you.’ thanks.
good question baptistjon.
Comment by jonbirch — January 6, 2009 @ 9:20 pm
with all the labelling of political affiliations, the racist nature of this conflict becomes obscured.
we like to think of ethnic cleansing, and the obliteration of a people and their culture, as crimes of previous century’s, to which we will never sink to again…
Comment by subo — January 6, 2009 @ 11:00 pm
I was a guide on the holocause memorial tour thingy when I was a trainee teacher (we all were). There was nothing more effective to bring home the reality of what you say Subo than meeting a guy who survived the holocaust because of schindler but still lost his family. Not such a dim and distant past.
The key thing he kept saying was “these guys were vote in!”
Makes you think about our current political climate. The last vote I cast was not for the party I wanted, it was a vote to get rid of the BNP – and I would rather have anyone else in than them!
Comment by Robb — January 7, 2009 @ 3:28 am
77 – It’s a very relevant point, the National Socialist Party was indeed voted into power, in a fair democratic election.
It seems like every politician in the west think that bringing democracy to the middle east will automaticly make all the problems go away.
Open your eyes, there are two democraticly elected governments in the middle east, the israeli and the palestinian, and those governments are arguably the prime reason for unrest and violence in the middle east region.
Not that I would talk against promoting democracy in the middle east, I like freedom of religion, the right to not be tortured and to vote for a party that actually care about their population, but perhaps it is overrated.
Comment by Bo — January 7, 2009 @ 2:52 pm
Overrated as in: more important that people get food and medicine, and stop bombing each other.
Comment by Bo — January 7, 2009 @ 2:53 pm
After reading the stuff said in this post, I’ve come to the conclusion that the only way this thing could end is by not having a country called Israel, because that’s what Hamas wanted and they would not stop poking till that’s achieved. (and I doubt that they would settle for anything less)
Now, that’s 99.99% impossible. There. It’s settled. There’s no solution to the problem, only prolonging of the inevitable.
Now, the only thing I’m hoping is that when Iran said that their nuclear programme is just for the sake of electricity, IT REALLY IS!
Comment by zefi — January 7, 2009 @ 5:56 pm
Gosh Zefi, that’s a bleak way of looking at it! I wonder if, given time, both Israel and Palestine will realise that they are both there to stay, and then come to the conclusion that they might as well stop bombing each other. I hope so at any rate.
Comment by Sophie — January 8, 2009 @ 12:03 pm
I was just watching the news headlines and it would seem that the UN are not happy with the situation and want an imediate ceasefire by Israel.
In the same item it was mentioned that 100 palastinians were herded into a building that was then shelled. What happened to the words “never again”?
Comment by Robb — January 9, 2009 @ 1:58 pm
Oh my goodness. That’s horrific. I hope the UN get their way.
Comment by Sophie — January 9, 2009 @ 6:09 pm
HERE
Just cos I like what he wrote.
Comment by zefi — January 10, 2009 @ 4:01 pm
great link zefi.
Comment by jonbirch — January 10, 2009 @ 6:19 pm
Thanks you for posting this. Goode image for talking pictures.
Comment by Bunmi Otubushin — January 12, 2009 @ 3:49 pm
Jon, I usually really like your panels, but i gotta say, this one is way to political for me, and too much finger pointing.
Christ never talked about how evil Rome was for what it was doing, he just talked about what was wrong with humanity and how we can fix it.
Comment by scanartist — January 12, 2009 @ 7:26 pm
Genocide….not even close. It is survival. We don’t need these knee jerk reactions to what the liberal press is reporting.
Comment by Bill Walden — January 17, 2009 @ 7:47 pm
I was a bit surprised at the bias in these cartoons against Israel.
The situation isn’t as one sided as you seem to make out.
Comment by Keith — June 15, 2009 @ 1:33 pm
knee jerk?.. moi?
Comment by jonbirch — June 15, 2009 @ 2:36 pm