when you don’t fear that the others will do the same to you
otherwise, I suspect that you will be blind to when you’ve gone far
over the limits of humanity
but then isn’t that the curse of violence and war?
It isn’t just Gaza is it… Sudan, Congo… to say nothing of Iraq
and Afganistan…
So often we blame the people when it’s the process that somehow
picks up the people and spins them out of control…
there is sin there, in the ‘out-of-control’ but I’m not sure that I’m
wise enough to spot where it is, which, of course, is why
I’m relieved to hand that over to God
I seem, increasingly, to be able to grieve…
Comment by Caroline Too — January 10, 2009 @ 5:41 pm
As if we needed any more proof that the UN is useless! Bush and Blair put the crucial nail in its coffin a few years ago, rendering it almost totally irrelevant. There is now no unified, effective and even-handed voice of international humanitarianism, decency or moral standards.
caroline too… “I seem, increasingly, to be able to grieve…” i find i’m constantly going between grieving and switching off. it is heartbreaking.
“It isn’t just Gaza is it… Sudan, Congo… to say nothing of Iraq
and Afganistan…” yes… and the rest. you are right.
i agree jf. very sad. the UN is trying it’s best. but what can it do, when the biggest nation just does as it pleases regardless? sad times.
Jon – from what I gather often the UN reps are the problem especially in some of the areas like Africa.
Given I live in NYC where the local politicians are very pro Israel, I switch off – we have conservative Christians joining forces with their enemies the Jewish people to form an very strong alliance that makes it very hard for the Palestinians to have any voice whatsoever. If you question what Israel is doing, you’re called anti-Semitic or pro-terrorist. Meanwhile, select Muslim groups use the Palestinians as pawns to advance their agenda.
The Q to ask yourself in any conflict is who’s benefiting here? Watch the Documentary Iraq for Sale and be prepared to get chilled to the bone.
If Jesus thought war would usher in his kingdom, he would have picked up a sword. All violence does is breed more violence.
God himself honours every life lost, even when whole families have been murdered in Gaza, so fewer are left to celebrate the life of loved one’s, God knows everything about each child or adult, and treasures them all
Hmm, that brings to mind another line of thought expressed in similar form.
About God and Jesus Christ and Salvation and all:
At what point is holy holy enough?
At what point is sinless sinless enough?
At what point is redemption redemption enough?
At what point is almighty almighty enough?
Anyway, from this the one relevant thing to this post is that unless these are total and absolute, then they are not at all.
The evil referenced by this cartoon is absolute: there will never be enough death to satisfy it until all except itself are dead. I don’t know, maybe even until all Including itself are dead.
1. Choosing not to hate. It has been my observation that those one both sides of this issue have a lot of hate. I am not just talking about the combatants. There is something deeper going on. I choose not to hate the Israeli’s, I choose not to hate those in Gaza. I am trying to see this from a wider lense. Protest all you like this conflict has gone on in various forms for thousands of years. Each century the issue is differnt, but the battle field the same. I want to be an agent of healing to both sides. This can only be done through the gospel.
2. Surrendering the situation to GOD. You may be differnt from me in this regard. But if I allow my emotions to get too excited I easily sin. I surrender it then pray and seek how I can make the situation better.
Probably sounds a little nutty. But this is a heart issue and not of the mind.
It’s a side issue but notice how the news is being served up. The BBC is pro-Palestinian and pro-Labour. So their news page has had pics of injured children on it for days. Something we didn’t see when the bombs were falling on Baghdad and Basra. Can’t help feeling a little manipulated.
i think peace protesters being violent is another unhelpful stereotype. i guess most peace protesters are angry, but that’s different. when there are violent peace protesters (a tragic oxymoron), they tend to make the news… the media loves that kind of stuff. to echo jf… o for a more trustworthy media.
Oh hang on JF (#14) there were many BBC pictures of the suffering
of children and other civilians in Baghdad, I’m not sure that’s a
fair point…
Mike (#9 and #12), I hear your point about being emotional
leading to sin, but I suspect that disassociating ourselves from the
anguish of the world has equal, if opposite potential for sin…
If I do not weep with those who are weeping then, I think, that is sinful
If I do not take what action I can, perhaps seeking to walk
by ‘on the other side’, then that is sinful
If I hand over an issue to God in such a way that I am absolved from
having to wrestle with the messy, angst and anger ridden troubles of
a case, then that too I fear is sinful.
Of course, I understand your point being that God will take the
burden of our grief and bear it for us so that our yoke is easy
(or that is how I interpret your point in #9), but
my goal, as a follower and apprentice of Jesus, is to become
more like him and sometimes that will mean learning to look at the
world through His eyes and sense just a morsel of His loving
grief… I do not see that as a burden but as part of my
disciple’s journey. For too long I suspect that I have sought the
sanctuary of my comfortable, western life.. I suspect that God
is calling many like me, who live in great comfort and wealth, to
follow the example of our Lord, who though He deserved equality as
God, did not avoid leaving the Glory of Heaven
for the poverty of a stable,
the life of a ‘bogus’ asylum seeker,
a travelling beggar/preacher
a suspected terrorist
an executed traitor to the empire
golly! reading all that… I do hope that my calling is only to a
little bit of poverty….
(and I also went on too long, sorry everyone…
Comment by Caroline Too — January 11, 2009 @ 2:00 pm
You didn’t go on too long at all. Thanks for that, I need to hear it SO often and am very glad to be reminded of it. I am so ready to shy away from the reality of what it means and whilst happy to be ‘radical’ in thought, its much harder in deed.
Thanks for the link Jon, its so hard to know what to do, is good that there is a way of registering protest, however feeble that feels as a response.
in the last lot of comments on the cartoons on this conflict…someone asked what we do about it…after thinking about it my response was to try to meet with someone from my local synagogue
after a bit of email to-ing and fro-ing when my request was met with alot of suspicion (naturally i think -actually the way was finlly smoothed by the fact there is a link between the synagogue and my childrens school)…i’m having coffee with someone this coming tuesday
all i hoping for is a bit of insight and more understanding on my part
Mike (13). The thing with peace protests is that some people are attracted by the protest, rather than the notion of peace. There are amateur anarchists and toytown trotskyists who will jump on any opportunity for a “protest”. They are barely literate in any of the issues they purport to be active in and they do a massive disservice to many causes.
Comment no.10 from JB is more profound to me than the image or indeed the actions themselves. Its made me think flip! what does that mean “handing it over to God” WOW! am I just pushing it to the back of my mind or making excuses? The only answer for me which incidentally brings another question is “All I can do is play my part in the solution”
Q.When have I played my part enough?
One thing I am sure of is that God is Sovereign in all, even in the shit.
darrin great to hear your getting to meet and chat to someone in you local community, i was thinking about that yesterday and wondered if you got a meeting. Praying it goes well for you both.
My friend went to support the plaestinians in the summer in west bank, he went as a peace protester- and he is peaceful, no violence came from him- they are not all violent
The thing with peace protests is that some people are attracted by the protest, rather than the notion of peace. There are amateur anarchists and toytown trotskyists who will jump on any opportunity for a “protest”. They are barely literate in any of the issues they purport to be active in and they do a massive disservice to many causes.
Almost easy to pull someone out and blame them, hmm?
I’m not into assuming that just cos there are violent people, doesn’t mean that they don’t know what they’re fighting for. I highly suspect there are people who are not above using violence to grab peace. If that sounds contradictory, it’s almost the same as preserving our freedom by restricting some people of theirs.
got the chance to join a peace protest in Brissol, on 3.1.09, it was fully peaceful (guess thats Brissol), what struck me was the silent respect from shoppers, standing watching us march pass, I could feel the wave of emotion as people silently acknowledge we are witnessing a massive 21cent war crime
further opportunity to protest (peacefully) this Sat, 2pm Bristol Centre
…possibly when you’re not the one under pressure,
when you’re not fearful for your own survival
when you don’t fear that the others will do the same to you
otherwise, I suspect that you will be blind to when you’ve gone far
over the limits of humanity
but then isn’t that the curse of violence and war?
It isn’t just Gaza is it… Sudan, Congo… to say nothing of Iraq
and Afganistan…
So often we blame the people when it’s the process that somehow
picks up the people and spins them out of control…
there is sin there, in the ‘out-of-control’ but I’m not sure that I’m
wise enough to spot where it is, which, of course, is why
I’m relieved to hand that over to God
I seem, increasingly, to be able to grieve…
Comment by Caroline Too — January 10, 2009 @ 5:41 pm
As if we needed any more proof that the UN is useless! Bush and Blair put the crucial nail in its coffin a few years ago, rendering it almost totally irrelevant. There is now no unified, effective and even-handed voice of international humanitarianism, decency or moral standards.
Comment by JF — January 10, 2009 @ 5:52 pm
caroline too… “I seem, increasingly, to be able to grieve…” i find i’m constantly going between grieving and switching off. it is heartbreaking.
“It isn’t just Gaza is it… Sudan, Congo… to say nothing of Iraq
and Afganistan…” yes… and the rest. you are right.
i agree jf. very sad. the UN is trying it’s best. but what can it do, when the biggest nation just does as it pleases regardless? sad times.
Comment by jonbirch — January 10, 2009 @ 6:09 pm
Jon – from what I gather often the UN reps are the problem especially in some of the areas like Africa.
Given I live in NYC where the local politicians are very pro Israel, I switch off – we have conservative Christians joining forces with their enemies the Jewish people to form an very strong alliance that makes it very hard for the Palestinians to have any voice whatsoever. If you question what Israel is doing, you’re called anti-Semitic or pro-terrorist. Meanwhile, select Muslim groups use the Palestinians as pawns to advance their agenda.
The Q to ask yourself in any conflict is who’s benefiting here? Watch the Documentary Iraq for Sale and be prepared to get chilled to the bone.
If Jesus thought war would usher in his kingdom, he would have picked up a sword. All violence does is breed more violence.
Comment by becky — January 10, 2009 @ 6:37 pm
Becky – in the words of the Mitch Benn song, “Every bomb blast is music to the ears/of both the terrorist recruiters/and the war profiteers”
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=h5Vf4VbLfv8
Comment by Ros — January 10, 2009 @ 8:02 pm
God himself honours every life lost, even when whole families have been murdered in Gaza, so fewer are left to celebrate the life of loved one’s, God knows everything about each child or adult, and treasures them all
Comment by subo — January 10, 2009 @ 8:09 pm
That answer kind of depends on whom one is asking it of.
OR,
answer me this;
At what point is evil evil enough?
Comment by Forrest — January 10, 2009 @ 8:56 pm
Hmm, that brings to mind another line of thought expressed in similar form.
About God and Jesus Christ and Salvation and all:
At what point is holy holy enough?
At what point is sinless sinless enough?
At what point is redemption redemption enough?
At what point is almighty almighty enough?
Anyway, from this the one relevant thing to this post is that unless these are total and absolute, then they are not at all.
The evil referenced by this cartoon is absolute: there will never be enough death to satisfy it until all except itself are dead. I don’t know, maybe even until all Including itself are dead.
Comment by Forrest — January 10, 2009 @ 9:12 pm
Jon,
This graphic is a true picture of the region and it’s history. This is the middle east for three thousand years. There has never been peace.
1. Caroline Too,
I learned long ago to hand this over to GOD. That is the only thing that makes sense anymore.
Comment by Mike — January 11, 2009 @ 1:09 am
what does handing it to god mean in this context? surely not that we do and say nothing? help me understand what this means.
Comment by jonbirch — January 11, 2009 @ 3:50 am
When I first saw this cartoon, I thought it was about being at a disco.
Sadly mistaken….
Comment by Laura — January 11, 2009 @ 3:57 am
Jon,
It means two things.
1. Choosing not to hate. It has been my observation that those one both sides of this issue have a lot of hate. I am not just talking about the combatants. There is something deeper going on. I choose not to hate the Israeli’s, I choose not to hate those in Gaza. I am trying to see this from a wider lense. Protest all you like this conflict has gone on in various forms for thousands of years. Each century the issue is differnt, but the battle field the same. I want to be an agent of healing to both sides. This can only be done through the gospel.
2. Surrendering the situation to GOD. You may be differnt from me in this regard. But if I allow my emotions to get too excited I easily sin. I surrender it then pray and seek how I can make the situation better.
Probably sounds a little nutty. But this is a heart issue and not of the mind.
Comment by Mike — January 11, 2009 @ 4:18 am
While I am on this blog I thought I would pop out another comment.
Has anyone seen the so called “Peace Protests”. Can someone explain why peace protesters are so violent?
Comment by Mike — January 11, 2009 @ 4:20 am
It’s a side issue but notice how the news is being served up. The BBC is pro-Palestinian and pro-Labour. So their news page has had pics of injured children on it for days. Something we didn’t see when the bombs were falling on Baghdad and Basra. Can’t help feeling a little manipulated.
Comment by JF — January 11, 2009 @ 11:31 am
yes indeed jf.
mike… not nutty at all. a genuine question to which you gave me a genuine answer. thank you.
laura… ‘being at a disco’?!
Comment by jonbirch — January 11, 2009 @ 1:46 pm
i think peace protesters being violent is another unhelpful stereotype. i guess most peace protesters are angry, but that’s different. when there are violent peace protesters (a tragic oxymoron), they tend to make the news… the media loves that kind of stuff. to echo jf… o for a more trustworthy media.
Comment by jonbirch — January 11, 2009 @ 1:48 pm
Oh hang on JF (#14) there were many BBC pictures of the suffering
of children and other civilians in Baghdad, I’m not sure that’s a
fair point…
Mike (#9 and #12), I hear your point about being emotional
leading to sin, but I suspect that disassociating ourselves from the
anguish of the world has equal, if opposite potential for sin…
If I do not weep with those who are weeping then, I think, that is sinful
If I do not take what action I can, perhaps seeking to walk
by ‘on the other side’, then that is sinful
If I hand over an issue to God in such a way that I am absolved from
having to wrestle with the messy, angst and anger ridden troubles of
a case, then that too I fear is sinful.
Of course, I understand your point being that God will take the
burden of our grief and bear it for us so that our yoke is easy
(or that is how I interpret your point in #9), but
my goal, as a follower and apprentice of Jesus, is to become
more like him and sometimes that will mean learning to look at the
world through His eyes and sense just a morsel of His loving
grief… I do not see that as a burden but as part of my
disciple’s journey. For too long I suspect that I have sought the
sanctuary of my comfortable, western life.. I suspect that God
is calling many like me, who live in great comfort and wealth, to
follow the example of our Lord, who though He deserved equality as
God, did not avoid leaving the Glory of Heaven
for the poverty of a stable,
the life of a ‘bogus’ asylum seeker,
a travelling beggar/preacher
a suspected terrorist
an executed traitor to the empire
golly! reading all that… I do hope that my calling is only to a
little bit of poverty….
(and I also went on too long, sorry everyone…
Comment by Caroline Too — January 11, 2009 @ 2:00 pm
You didn’t go on too long at all. Thanks for that, I need to hear it SO often and am very glad to be reminded of it. I am so ready to shy away from the reality of what it means and whilst happy to be ‘radical’ in thought, its much harder in deed.
Thanks for the link Jon, its so hard to know what to do, is good that there is a way of registering protest, however feeble that feels as a response.
Comment by Kim — January 11, 2009 @ 2:45 pm
in the last lot of comments on the cartoons on this conflict…someone asked what we do about it…after thinking about it my response was to try to meet with someone from my local synagogue
after a bit of email to-ing and fro-ing when my request was met with alot of suspicion (naturally i think -actually the way was finlly smoothed by the fact there is a link between the synagogue and my childrens school)…i’m having coffee with someone this coming tuesday
all i hoping for is a bit of insight and more understanding on my part
Comment by darrin — January 11, 2009 @ 2:57 pm
if you gain any insight darrin, please report back. what you’re doing is good… and certainly could be interesting.
caroline too, i agree with kim. not too long at all. the right length and very thought provoking.
Comment by jonbirch — January 11, 2009 @ 3:58 pm
“a travelling beggar/preacher
a suspected terrorist
an executed traitor to the empire”
Comment by subo — January 11, 2009 @ 4:27 pm
one of the most inspiring christian organisations I’ve ever come across, are asking for a wave of prayer, check link for further info
http://www.sabeel.org/etemplate.php?id=58
you can also read Sabeel reflection on Gaza, here, on the Iona community web site
http://www.iona.org.uk/news.php?id=93
Comment by subo — January 11, 2009 @ 4:29 pm
Mike (13). The thing with peace protests is that some people are attracted by the protest, rather than the notion of peace. There are amateur anarchists and toytown trotskyists who will jump on any opportunity for a “protest”. They are barely literate in any of the issues they purport to be active in and they do a massive disservice to many causes.
Comment by JF — January 11, 2009 @ 4:50 pm
Comment no.10 from JB is more profound to me than the image or indeed the actions themselves. Its made me think flip! what does that mean “handing it over to God” WOW! am I just pushing it to the back of my mind or making excuses? The only answer for me which incidentally brings another question is “All I can do is play my part in the solution”
Q.When have I played my part enough?
One thing I am sure of is that God is Sovereign in all, even in the shit.
Comment by dennis — January 11, 2009 @ 4:50 pm
Jon,
I agree with your statements about the media. It is interesting to read the online news across the globe, each has a differnt spin on it.
22. JF,
I can see what you are saying. Some people just want to have a fight regardless of the issue.
Comment by Mike — January 11, 2009 @ 5:25 pm
I saw a headline yesterday, over a picture of a bloodied young girl “This isn’t an eye for an eye, it’s an eye for an eyelash”
Giving to Christian Aid, the Red Cross, World Vision or the DEC is certainly the first and easiest part of the Christian response.
Maybe it’s my cash i need to hand over to God.
Comment by Jonathan — January 11, 2009 @ 5:46 pm
darrin great to hear your getting to meet and chat to someone in you local community, i was thinking about that yesterday and wondered if you got a meeting. Praying it goes well for you both.
My friend went to support the plaestinians in the summer in west bank, he went as a peace protester- and he is peaceful, no violence came from him- they are not all violent
Comment by soniamain — January 11, 2009 @ 7:48 pm
Surely enough was enough circa April 33 AD?
Grace costs the receiver nought, but the giver immensely (sometimes everything).
Comment by Mark — January 11, 2009 @ 8:43 pm
Almost easy to pull someone out and blame them, hmm?
1. Peaceful people do peace protest.
2. Peace protesters aren’t necessarily peaceful people.
I’m not into assuming that just cos there are violent people, doesn’t mean that they don’t know what they’re fighting for. I highly suspect there are people who are not above using violence to grab peace. If that sounds contradictory, it’s almost the same as preserving our freedom by restricting some people of theirs.
Comment by zefi — January 12, 2009 @ 1:16 pm
got the chance to join a peace protest in Brissol, on 3.1.09, it was fully peaceful (guess thats Brissol), what struck me was the silent respect from shoppers, standing watching us march pass, I could feel the wave of emotion as people silently acknowledge we are witnessing a massive 21cent war crime
further opportunity to protest (peacefully) this Sat, 2pm Bristol Centre
also found this detailed article, on the CofE blog, reflecting on what Israel have been doing, well worth reading
http://www.fulcrum-anglican.org.uk/page.cfm?ID=377
Comment by subo — January 12, 2009 @ 9:36 pm