If the whole congregation were blind would it still be inappropriate? Personally I am not turned on by suspenders, but tight jeans… See what I mean anything could be deemed inappropriate, I was speaking on this in a group of Young People last week and they said that short hair on girls is inappropriate and boys wearing builders boots for school was unacceptable.
I do however see some of the point but i think the issue lies with the beholder. Anyway it would be way too cold in our Church and I am not wearing high heals in public.
In my church we used to have (and still sometimes do) timbrel displays (yes…its the sally army)…well depending on the holder said instrument and the althlectism of the routine…it can really cause the mind to wander
I think I realised I didn’t belong at my uni CU when turning up in boots and a short (kneelength) skirt elicited comments about modest attire … Unlike this young lady I wasn’t on a stage so I couldn’t see the problem!
I do think that there are innapropriate things to wear whilst leading worship as they detract. There are certain things I wont wear (mostly some of my T-shirts as they say things that would put people off).
That said, my line is usually five miles further back than most people!!
I am pretty sure that if I were to go and lead congregational worship with no trousers questions would be asked like “why could we see innapropriate parts?”….
[....to which the answer would probably be "careful examination utilising additional equipment?"]
serena – people comment on my attire all the time. People in my home town still comment on the jacket I wore as a teenager. It is now more than half my lifetime ago. I wish I still had it so I could go back wearing it again…..
I once attended a large fellowship on the south coast that had a large worship group including a dance troop. These took to the stage in pale blue but highly translucent leotards that left nothing to the imagination for both sexes. It was difficult to know where to look.
serena: hehe, I went out for a coffee with some friends after CU once and me and another girl rolled our jeans up to knee height to compare the shape of our legs (girls do the strangest things!) and were asked not to as it was inappropriate and made it ‘difficult’ for our Christian brothers to be in proper relationship with us.
Good times!
Comment by theseoldshades — January 15, 2009 @ 9:26 am
Laugh or cry? Serena, I have an old dear in my congregation who took me aside to complain about the length of my skirts (just past the knee) because her husband could see my knees when I sat down (I’m the ‘rev’ type person),. Recently I wore a trouser suit to lead worship for the first time ever – and she scowled about that too – but my knees and ankles were covered!!!!!
Maybe women preachers/worship leaders should wear burkas to avoid leading poor little men in to sinful thoughts? I don’t think ‘anything goes’ but I think we get ourselves in knots over the wrong things too often.
My proposal (doing the worship-on-a-stage-thing for a looong time is to play only totally unknown songs. Forces people to look at the text slides, not at anyone eventually clothed inadequately (in someone’s opinion).
like dennis says, we all have our things that we find attractive, it doesn’t mean that we have to salivate like dogs.
sometimes i think that young teenage girls in church are ‘punished’ just for looking attractive (in perfectly acceptable attire!), that it’s an insecurity thing from older women/people.
what would be inappropriate for a guy then? what would make me go jellylegs? not sure – cool t-shirt and jeans on a guy with good pecs and a six pack? maybe, but then his attire is still not inappropriate, and it’s less about him and more about me.
but then i’ve got a thing for ian hislop, so i don’t think it’s all about the good pecs for me……..
(i don’t think i’ve seen anyone do worship in a short black skirt with a suspender belt tho, perhaps i’m going to the wrong churches…..)
When I served as a chalice bearer, I kept being told not to look so sexy – I am wearing a freakin’ alb, how sexy could I be? All I did was do my hair and put on a bit of make-up. My concern isn’t how someone is dressed but how the worship leader acts – this photo gives one the impression she is auditioning for a role not trying to lead the congregation in worship. How does she interact with those who are turned on by her – does she encourage the drooling? Nothing is more odious than a worship/youth leader who has a fan base, knows it and manipulates it to get what they want.
Comment by beatthedrum — January 15, 2009 @ 10:36 am
Hey what you trying to say?!
Just kidding, I think thats just inappropriate attire full stop. I mean, please wear a skirt rather than a belt for a start…!!
Having said that does bring back memories to when I had to dress up as a slutty jester for a Gilbert and Sullivan production at uni. Hadn’t realised what my costume was going to be like until after some of the elders of my church told me they’d got tickets to come and see us.
i don’t know whats inappropriate for guy…although the length of my hair has caused consternation…whilst commenting people often feel compelled (by the holy spirit?) to tug at the ends or ruffle it…i tried to hide it under a bushel…sorry i mean hat…although i think placing a bushel atop my nape might have drawn less interest in church
(jody…ian hislop…really!?…personally i go for jessica rabbit…perhaps thats why i dig asbo so)
1. It’s not right to judge a person by what they look like. What’s more important is in their heart.
When someone dresses provocatively it might be ’cause they want to cause trouble, or be admired, or becuase they think that’s the best way to celebrate their body before they get old and wrinkly, or (and, personally, well for me anyway, i think this is the main reason) because they don’t feel good about themselves. They want/need some attention.
If you just tell a person to put some clothes on, that hardly goes deep enough to get to the heart of the matter does it?
A church shouldn’t force everyone to act the same according to its most conservative members… we should care about each other…. We should care about the effect we have on one another. Most importantly we need to be able to reveal what’s going on in our hearts.
I think there’s responsibility on both sides; yes, I don’t wear the clothes to church I go out in on a Saturday night, but I should be able to wear a skirt and tights without anyone looking askance. We’re responsible for our own thoughts.
Jody: SO glad I am not the only one with weird/possibly wrong thing for Ian Hislop
Comment by theseoldshades — January 15, 2009 @ 12:13 pm
Its not about peoples opinions, im an ex punk and skinhead, I like alternative clothing and styles but if by wearing them I cause someone to stumble then that is not good.
Comment by beatthedrum — January 15, 2009 @ 12:24 pm
Darrin – the first words out of one monastics mouth to me were “Can I just says something? Get a haircut.” Somehow I managed to get away with replying “No because a punch in the face often offends” in a jocular manner…
I caused a stir with my attire the other day. It was windy and cold so I put on a hat. Apparantly a baseball cap is not appropriate attire whilst wearing a cassock.
OK – the question has been asked so here we go. Top ten innapropriate attires for a man leading worship:
One. Although I suspect that it may be OK to ‘pick up chicks’ dressed like this… if you own a time machine… Two. You may be able to reupholster your car in your victims skin in this attire. Lead worship? Perhaps not. Three. Perhaps you could help out on Red Sonia II in this particular attire. I have it on good authority that a friend of mine thought that he had “made it” when he saw them in his teenage years…. Four. I mean – come one!! Perhaps if you worked with a curate called Jane and a Youth Leader called Freddie. Then you could do the childrens talk with a puppet called Zippy… Five. Enough said. Six. They look like some Good Ol’ Boys…. Seven. Theodopolous P Wildebeast!! Eight. Can you imagine any man regardless of how well built they are, or how much they love themselves, coming to church dressed like this? Nine/ Just ready for the baptism… Ten. With voyuristic intentions…
There are many innapropriate ways to dress as a man and you just don’t.
I’m not a suit wearer or a particularly conservative dresser. I tend to get in trouble with the bishop for facial piercings and “dressing innapropriately”. I recently retired a t-shirt because I couldn’t see a situation in which I could wear it anymore. As a teacher I put on my suit and took out my piercings because otherwise it stopped the pupils from learning. The job wasn’t being done because people were focussing on me and what I was wearing. The same thing applies.
Thats why I wear robes. There are no questions.
I do occasionally comments from the older ladies such as “We love your boots” because they saw them when they knealt for communion. Mostly it is good natured. Having said that I haven’t yet worn the purple camoflage stole….
I recently was told off for wearing this T-shirt. I think I made polite ‘get stuffed’ intimations…
The conversation came around to “did they know…” to which I may have responded “when I first arrived for interview I did so in black leather wearing a black helmet and riding a black big twin harley with straight through pipes. I don’t think they can have missed me arriving like I belonged in Terminator 2″.
I didn’t realise how bolshy I am until I wrote this. I better go and repent……
ian hislop?… makes sense to me. he’s witty, charming, thoughtful, great smile, seems like a good bloke, doesn’t mind the joke being on him… yep… good choice i think.
all my growing up this was an issue for me. always in some kind of dispute over my choice of clothes.
once, when i was going to lead a service at a local c of e, i got to the door, was just about to take my hat off, when an old lady (door greeting person) told me that wearing a hat was rude in the extreme and i should remove it immediately. that was annoying. so, i wrote a letter and got a lovely apology from the vicar who said he’d ‘had words’.
personally, i like miniskirts. i like legs. to be honest, i find a million and one things sexy on a woman. so there you go… there’s no way of me ever not being distracted… oh well.
@andy t (28): Here in Germany, we have a word for that: “Mit Speck fängt man Mäuse”. In English, this should be “You need a sprat to catch a mackerel” (if I am googling in the right direction). So this worship outfit could be useful for reaching the unchurched. And to allure more man to our services, which – at least in our church – have a very high female proportion.
I have read a lot of comments about women causing men to stumble because of what they are wearing, but what about the guys who wear clothes that cause women to stumble. I have seen a lot of guy worship leaders wearing tight jeans and the like.
Comment by ponderingwanderer — January 15, 2009 @ 3:45 pm
theseoldshades @ 23: Should we be worried that I have a thing about the lovely Ian H as well?
Comment by theseoldshades — January 15, 2009 @ 3:54 pm
Ah…and I didn’t notice that you’d posted a comment from my netbook – so that last one doesn’t make much sense!!
I agree that if you dress as a burlesque performer at church it’s a little weird.
That said, Christian culture pisses me off at times for its misogyny – too much blame put on women like it’s their responsibility for not leading men astray. The filthy harlots.
I also think Church should be a place where we put aside our differences and don’t judge others. Even if someone comes in wearing something entirely inappropriate, we should embrace them as a child of God. I think there’s a lot of middle-class snobbery in the Church. Like if someone a bit rough walked in, they wouldn’t be accepted. Perfect example – in Borat when he brings a prostitute in to the uber-snobby Christian meal and they’re like EWWWWW!
Peter Rollins talks about church being a place where we theatrically perform the notion of all being one in Christ, and set aside as completely as possible our cultural, political, religious, gender, national, economic etc differences, in the hopes that we will be transformed by this performance and maybe become a little more recognisant outside of the church context of our similarities and see more of Christ in each other: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=F_QETeY5fFw&feature=related
Comment by theginjaninja — January 15, 2009 @ 4:42 pm
I am suprised I managed to write so much html without making a pigs ear of it! I think I can see why it was deemed spam as well
I must have too much time on my hands if I can spend so much time surfing the net looking for pictures
Better go and repent (for the second time this thread!!)!
I have got to start going to your churches. Where are all these skantily clad women you speak of?
I must ask Dr Ruth if anyone has ever said anything about the way she dresses. She has been known to wear whatever she wants whenever she wants… I don’t recall anyone ever saying anything to her… ever…
I must have just been lucky with the places where I have worshipped unless there is a secret misogynic sect working out the back.
You should be allowed to wear what you like to church, in my opinion. Shouldn’t we focus on the fact that someone has turned up to try and strengthen their relationship with God and their brothers and sisters in Christ, rather than fussing about their skirt length?
If someone turned up naked to church I’d probably think good for them! (Has to look like Colin Firth, obviously.)
I judge people by the way they look all the time, and get distracted by the way someone dresses, whether they dress well or not. This is definitely my problem and flaw that I need to sort out, and I would never want someone to change dressing the way they feel comfortable in for my sake.
re: dude’s attires – I agree – that’s why I’m glad the priests are in robes. It’s really, really hard to concentrate when there’s a hot guy giving a talk and to paraphrase the late, great Mae West, you’re not sure if he’s happy to see you or packing a potato.
42. I seek out worship experiences where everyone is welcomed just as they are regardless of their body piercings, too tight jeans, dirty clothes (a sign of a healthy church to me is when the homeless they serve feel like joining in for the Sunday service), etc. Having said that, I have seen plenty of talk by some holy hipster worship leaders/speakers decked out in sexy gear talking about being “one like christ” but by they are flirting like hell with their attire and body language. I’ve found this tends to produce a cult of personality where those of us who aren’t of the groupie mindset tend to head for the hills.
My wife’s great aunt was once arrested for showing her ankles on the beach… a Muslim woman sued for divorce when her husband peeked under her burkah… g-string bikinis are all the rage on South Beach. Who is the arbiter of “appropriate attire”?
I think a lot of this has to do with jealousy. It’s like the whole school thing of having the pretty popular girls who do their hair just so when other girls can’t quite pull it off, and the boys who look cool in scraggy clothes as opposed to looking plain silly.
I think we need to address these feelings and also be kind to people that feel the need to be ‘flirting’, as becky describes.
None of us are perfect, and putting us all in conventional clothes that no-one disapproves of isn’t going to change what’s in our hearts and minds. That’s where God comes in!
Bingo Haley – often people are just being mean. The comments made to me when i was in my alb and in my twenties were done by older women who were jealous they weren’t my age. I still get it a bit by people who can’t believe I’m in my late 40s because I still look like a grad student.
The problem for me is when the worship leader/preacher/speaker feels the need to dress and act in a way to ensure that they become the object of worship. I saw some of this at Greenbelt – what concerned me were how the young and very impressionable kids were being drawn into a form of idol worship where the person or the group was being worshiped not Jesus. It is just a very weird and uncomfortable situation – I feel like at any moment a missional make-out session is about to take place.
NOW I’ve seen other leaders who dressed just as non-traditional but yet their demeanor didn’t scream “look at me.” Those services tend to really rock because we’re all there just as we are and our focus is on experiencing God as we understand God.
Well I suggest that Ian Hislop should always wear robes at his Prayer Book Society related services so as not to cause any undue arousal amonst the BCP community!!
I think I find the whole ‘appropriateness’ thing a bit confusing. Part of me says, “who give a monkey’s what people wear?” and part of me is stuck in the groove of upbringing. If I go for a job interview, I wear a suit, because I have been brought up to think of that as appropriate. If ever I had a court appearance, I feel that I would create a better impression by dressing in more formal attire. When our extended family spent the weekend together recently, I wore jeans, t-shirt and trainers all weekend which was suitable for relaxing and walking. We all sniggered at my one of my gorgeous nieces (of which I have a number) tottered on the muddy grass in stilettoes, tight jeans and cutesie top whilst participating in the boules tournament. Not especially fit for purpose (my phrase of the week!)
The least appropriate thing I feel I have ever seen a worshipper wearing to church is a Man United strip…substituting trainers for boots.
How dare you impinge on the rights of women to wear whatever they want!? We’re free aren’t we, as christians? To suggest otherwise is sexist! We’d never reject a man wearing those! In fact, we were created naked, so that’s obviously the best way – why can’t she do it naked?!
Why is the worship leader Center stage anyhoo? I reckon, put the band in the corner and let them wear what they want It should be about the worship not about what the band is wearing. Our normal band doesn’t normally have much of a fashion sense that includes lil skirts and one of those scary under pant stocking thingies on one leg anyhoo! haha!
kim… i emailed naked pastor to let him know his site was down. it should be up again shortly. he was surprised it was down and is checking into it. thanks for the heads up.
re. ian hislop. i’ve just noticed all the little bald men in the cartoon look a bit like him… maybe that is why the thread has gone that way. i love it when these threads go completely off topic… hilarious!
Thanks Jon – he said his server was playing up earlier in the week I think.
last few days I’ve really looked forward to grabbing a break to read up all the comments, as the toons were so fabulous and some of the readership are exceptionally witty people. Ace, thanks.
Comment by beatthedrum — January 16, 2009 @ 2:47 pm
Kim – I live 20 years away from college so it isn’t a big deal. I sometimes am in bed closer to a service than 7 minutes!! 7:30 is a killer. I am a firm believer in the first church of Jesus Christ and the later in the day saints. Mattins should happen at 11:59!!
For you and all of the other foot fetishists out there here is a picture of my feet.
sorry Robb, just pointing out that most worship leaders often travel obscure tangents, leaving Bill Bailey’s mindwanderings in the land of the sane
basically I have a problem with the concept that someone can ‘lead worship’, they can serve the community in providing an invitation to worship, or they can imagine they’re in a little world of specialdome, where they’re hot line to God is much hotter than anyone elses
however, i’ve begun to realise there is a positive side to the little bubbles church leaders cocoon themselves in, they are miles from reality, and of intense irritation to others, but the feeling your doing something wonderful keeps these wanaby worship leaders jammin away
however, i’d love to find a church where a band played the music
@ 51: “How dare you impinge on the rights of women to wear whatever they want!? We’re free aren’t we, as christians? To suggest otherwise is sexist! We’d never reject a man wearing those! In fact, we were created naked, so that’s obviously the best way – why can’t she do it naked?!”
my (now) husband used to lead worship – when we did church in that kind of way- I was 17 and hoped each sunday that he was leading worship that week, as he always wore jeans with a huge hole in the backside, I loved it when he turned around and his ass hung out- def improved my worship experience!! – it’s alright I did eventually marry him
88. I think the sight of seeing some clergy’s backsides (or even their front bits) sounds more like hell than heaven – sort of like catching a glimpse of the Pillsbury Dough Boy going to the bathroom.
Good to hear that. Sounds like he was a hot young dude doing his thing – I have no problem with that. In fact, I might be guilty a bit of committing the sin of envy here.
It’s the whole manipulation of one’s sexuality and power in the name of God that really pisses me off – because that’s when the vulnerable and impressionable can really get hurt by some self-absorbed religious leader.
Hey, np! All the blogmeisters in one place, hurrah! I wonder if there could be a ‘Rocky Horror Show Emergent Fresh Expression’ church, run by Ian Hislop and Robb in his boots, with Jon as WL? Bring it on )
referring back to 86. I just remembered at New Wine last year I sat behind a couple (fully clothed at that point mercifully)who had just come back from The Isle of Wight where they’d been on a Christian nudist holiday – ‘you know, its how God made us and we’ve got to get back to our created state’ etc etc. Vowed never to go to IOW again.
Personally, I don’t think you have to lose your creativity or personality or ‘alternative’ style just because you’re not dressing provacatively (i.e. showing lots of flesh and cleavage).
And I’m sorry, but my absolute pet peeve is when people lean forward to pray (it just seems to happen when people pray for some reason) and the person in front of you has low cut trousers, and a high rise brightly coloured thong….which is basically staring you in the face…
I had a crowd of friends over and then when they left, I was too wired to go to sleep – but no-one else is chatting that late at night. There was bad news too and its hard to sleep then.
Brilliant cartoon, Jon. Makes me rememember some wonderful occasions when your lovely wife and I startled various unsuspecting passers-by with our Rocky Horror outfits. Happy days!
We didn’t actually go to church in them, but I do recall a rather entertaining evening in the local A&E….
Robb: Love the boots! I think he cassock sets them off rather well
The Bill Bailey clip is hilarious – how on earth do you find all these gems?
By the way, did your really mean “years” at 77, or should it have been the rather more prosaic “yards”??
Carole (50): Yep, me too. Thankfully, I don’t often have to confront this particular personal demon because I go to a ‘nice’ church where people dress ‘properly’. Perhaps I should disturb my comfort-zone and look for somewhere more challenging in this respect …
becky… i don’t know that many leaders whose bodies are tool enough to manipulate me. i’m a bit of a tool (british vulgarity: plank, dolt, buffoon, fool)… but that’s also a different topic altogether!
Jon – yet another word that got mangled when it crossed the pond – this brings back memories I had the summer of 2007 when I used the word “fanny pack” on Jonny’s blog. I still think “bumbags” sounds gross. ;->
This reminds me of a famous quote made by US Supreme Court Justice Potter when he was asked to cast a pornography ruling. “I know it when I see it.” It’s more an intuitive feeling – There’s the hot worship leader that’s good eye candy – no harm done. If someone has a problem a religious leader that’s easy on the eyes, I think they might want to pray about what issues in their lives need to be resolved.
And then there’s the 9 O’Clock service. We (meaning the community) need to be aware when something’s going from harmless eye candy into something else where as I’ve noted, commandments aren’t broken but boundaries are crossed. This is especially true if we’re dealing with populations that are recovering from abuse, addictions and the like. For me, it’s a matter of paying attention to my gut that something doesn’t feel right.
Kim @99 ill come along to that… but only if i can dress up!
Comment by beatthedrum — January 19, 2009 @ 10:44 am
Last year I went to a youth event at our local cathedral. There were loads of Christian bands dotted round the place and as one finished their set another would take the stage.
As one group were finishing their last number a troup of 8 teenage girls arrived dressed as Nuns. At this point you want to be thinking Hen-Night, not Convent.
I made to leave, but was stopped by a particularly attractive member of the sisters who tried to persuade me to stick around for their performance.
I don’t think I lied as I made my excuses, but I certainly didn’t tell the truth. She didn’t need to hear about “lust issues” from a man twice her age!
Comment by Chris Sharp — January 20, 2009 @ 9:44 am
‘She didn’t need to hear about “lust issues” from a man twice her age!’…
you probably did the right thing chris. i reckon just about all men have ‘lust issues’ as you call them, but few are man enough to admit it. i guess it’s not about how you feel, but what you do about how you feel. would it be true to say that stirrings are normal, but practise can be changed?
Jon – I’d go one step further. I’d argue that fiascos like Jim Bakker and Ted Haggard happen in large part because these dudes repressed their stirrings to the point where it all imploded. They also seemed to be extremely isolated without anyone around to help guide them.
Becky – There is an inherent problem with the Christian faith as it is perceived by society. It is seen as being a club for the sanctified. It is a society for the holy.
This means that if such a public perception is adhered to it instils a sense of inadequacy and unholyness as it is impossible to live up to. We also have huge baggage about commandment 7 that when people worry about number 9 they feel ashamed and start hiding themselves*. This can lead to the implosion.
Here is the problem, the faith is all about forgiveness and sanctification through Christ.
*Quick translation – people are scared of sex and anything to do with sex and worry a lot about having sex with people they shouldn’t have sex with and then worry about the way that they have just thought about having sex with someone they shouldn’t have sex with because sex is a sexual thing and we have plenty of sexual morality baggage. (are you keeping up).
When people think about sex they often think about having sex so the sex that they are thinking of becomes a thought that is an unclean thought (still with me). Unclean thoughts are bad, particularly unclean thoughts about sex with the wrong type of person (oops, here’s a whole can of worms being opened here for those of you who like to define ‘the right sort of person’). As we all know, having thoughts is a bad thing, particularly unclean thoughts (and we all know that the Daily Mail says that unclean thoughts of a sexual nature are the worst kind of thoughts). Well bad thoughts are as bad as bad actions (because the thought police are watching and checking up on you). We all know that Jesus wasn’t keen on sexual thoughts. In fact, by breaking commandment 9 and thinking about breaking commandment 7 you have actually broken….
Essentially, we let people outside of the church define what the faith of those within the church should be and we let them give us enough baggage to screw our minds up with newspaper headlines and ’scandal’ that people end up hiding…. in the scandal (sounds daft doesn’t it).
The light eradicates the darkness. When you hide your darkness from the light, all you have is darkness… and darkness consumes.
Robb – Excellent point. As a writer, all kinds of weird thoughts cross my desk – what I learned through therapy and spiritual direction is that we need places we can go to process the stuff that’s in our heads to give us some much needed perspective. This place gives that to me in spades. And I just joined a lay monastic community based in Oregon whose urban Celtic vibe really appealed to me – thanks to email, we still connect.
BTW-I find that the uber liberal leaders who tend to be acting inappropriately with their fans tend to come from very conservative and repressed backgrounds. In their rebellion, they threw away all rules and found themselves in equally toxic and dark places.
What I’m starting to find in some alt. w./emergent type settings is that the charismatic leaders can really can put on the charm to where you think you’re prat of this cool community but in the end, it’s all about them. I am coming out of what I thought was a friendship with one such person – what I thought was the beginning of a professional relationship was a dude latching on to a writer in the hopes I’d promote his narcissistic ass.
Even though I know a person like this can never be a real friend (his female buddies are really groupies who will do anything to help him), there’s still a void that was filled by his emails. Add to this a host of emotions that come to the surface when I see other women (and some men) still get sucked in to this seemingly cool beyond cool scene that is really one sided and toxic. My friends have helped me get some much needed perspective here by noting how this ministry lost it’s Christ center – without them I am not sure I could have walked away from this situation.
if it weren’t for the Christians who I’ve met over the years around me who help direct me towards the light, I am sure I’d be pushing daisies these days.
You’re welcome – I met part of the community – I realize prat is not a nice word in the UK. Sorry for ranting – I’m having a bad time here in NYC – this emergent church ™ BS some days really, really gets to me. Just found out that above mentioned “friend” s is coming to NYC and once again, i am blown off. I know I shouldn’t let this get to me – but I’m human.
becky…prat seems like a suitable word to use for the person as you describe them (we have much worster words in the uk that would also seem appropriate)
Thanks Darrin – I’m not doing so hot. I’m just blown away that someone I really reached out to help blew me off as soon as he got a bit of fame – this has happened with a very small clique of folks in the US and UK – it’s so clear they just wanted me for my media contacts and not me – and now that they’ve gotten a tiny touch of fame, they seek people who place them on a pedestal instead of real-time friends. I just thought I was making real friends to find out it was a kind of a fraud.
Whole heartedly agree on this one.
Comment by Auran — January 15, 2009 @ 3:38 am
Seems like just another Sunday service.
Comment by Mike — January 15, 2009 @ 4:19 am
Um, depends upon whom you’re worshipping…
(fwiw, I don’t think Satan *gets* sex, actually)
oh, you’re talking about the *guitar* – never mind, then
Comment by Oriscus — January 15, 2009 @ 6:51 am
If the whole congregation were blind would it still be inappropriate? Personally I am not turned on by suspenders, but tight jeans… See what I mean anything could be deemed inappropriate, I was speaking on this in a group of Young People last week and they said that short hair on girls is inappropriate and boys wearing builders boots for school was unacceptable.
I do however see some of the point but i think the issue lies with the beholder. Anyway it would be way too cold in our Church and I am not wearing high heals in public.
Comment by dennis — January 15, 2009 @ 7:57 am
Are they(he/she)playing Air on a G String?
In my church we used to have (and still sometimes do) timbrel displays (yes…its the sally army)…well depending on the holder said instrument and the althlectism of the routine…it can really cause the mind to wander
thankyou for letting me share
Comment by darrin — January 15, 2009 @ 8:27 am
I think I realised I didn’t belong at my uni CU when turning up in boots and a short (kneelength) skirt elicited comments about modest attire … Unlike this young lady I wasn’t on a stage so I couldn’t see the problem!
Comment by serena — January 15, 2009 @ 8:39 am
I do think that there are innapropriate things to wear whilst leading worship as they detract. There are certain things I wont wear (mostly some of my T-shirts as they say things that would put people off).
That said, my line is usually five miles further back than most people!!
I am pretty sure that if I were to go and lead congregational worship with no trousers questions would be asked like “why could we see innapropriate parts?”….
[....to which the answer would probably be "careful examination utilising additional equipment?"]
It would be a bit of a distraction*!
*can’t find where Nigel says “we’ve got armadillos in our trousers, it’s relly quite scary”
Comment by Robb — January 15, 2009 @ 8:51 am
serena – people comment on my attire all the time. People in my home town still comment on the jacket I wore as a teenager. It is now more than half my lifetime ago. I wish I still had it so I could go back wearing it again…..
Comment by Robb — January 15, 2009 @ 8:52 am
Kneelength is considered short? Well I wish someone had informed me of this…
Comment by Hayles — January 15, 2009 @ 8:55 am
I once attended a large fellowship on the south coast that had a large worship group including a dance troop. These took to the stage in pale blue but highly translucent leotards that left nothing to the imagination for both sexes. It was difficult to know where to look.
Comment by miriworm — January 15, 2009 @ 8:59 am
serena: hehe, I went out for a coffee with some friends after CU once and me and another girl rolled our jeans up to knee height to compare the shape of our legs (girls do the strangest things!) and were asked not to as it was inappropriate and made it ‘difficult’ for our Christian brothers to be in proper relationship with us.
Good times!
Comment by theseoldshades — January 15, 2009 @ 9:26 am
Laugh or cry? Serena, I have an old dear in my congregation who took me aside to complain about the length of my skirts (just past the knee) because her husband could see my knees when I sat down (I’m the ‘rev’ type person),. Recently I wore a trouser suit to lead worship for the first time ever – and she scowled about that too – but my knees and ankles were covered!!!!!
Maybe women preachers/worship leaders should wear burkas to avoid leading poor little men in to sinful thoughts? I don’t think ‘anything goes’ but I think we get ourselves in knots over the wrong things too often.
Comment by Catriona — January 15, 2009 @ 9:27 am
My proposal (doing the worship-on-a-stage-thing for a looong time
is to play only totally unknown songs. Forces people to look at the text slides, not at anyone eventually clothed inadequately (in someone’s opinion).
Comment by Maggi — January 15, 2009 @ 9:34 am
… and if you happen to be in the audience, praise god for giving such a nice body to the worship leadress up there …
Comment by Maggi — January 15, 2009 @ 9:36 am
Catriona – unless I am reading that wrong, it was nothing to do with a poor little man and all to do with the contents of a womans head……
Comment by Robb — January 15, 2009 @ 9:55 am
like dennis says, we all have our things that we find attractive, it doesn’t mean that we have to salivate like dogs.
sometimes i think that young teenage girls in church are ‘punished’ just for looking attractive (in perfectly acceptable attire!), that it’s an insecurity thing from older women/people.
what would be inappropriate for a guy then? what would make me go jellylegs? not sure – cool t-shirt and jeans on a guy with good pecs and a six pack? maybe, but then his attire is still not inappropriate, and it’s less about him and more about me.
but then i’ve got a thing for ian hislop, so i don’t think it’s all about the good pecs for me……..
(i don’t think i’ve seen anyone do worship in a short black skirt with a suspender belt tho, perhaps i’m going to the wrong churches…..)
Comment by jody — January 15, 2009 @ 9:56 am
When I served as a chalice bearer, I kept being told not to look so sexy – I am wearing a freakin’ alb, how sexy could I be? All I did was do my hair and put on a bit of make-up. My concern isn’t how someone is dressed but how the worship leader acts – this photo gives one the impression she is auditioning for a role not trying to lead the congregation in worship. How does she interact with those who are turned on by her – does she encourage the drooling? Nothing is more odious than a worship/youth leader who has a fan base, knows it and manipulates it to get what they want.
Comment by becky — January 15, 2009 @ 10:23 am
I dont know I think I look good in stockings……
I have been to Jazz worship events, blues worship events.. so how about a rocky horror worship event…
Possibly the worst i have seen is a large lady in a crop top… that didnt make me think of sex but still put me off…..
Maybe we should make the ladies wear burkers… or blind the guys.. if your eye causes you to sin…..
http://www.beatthedrum.wordpress.com
Comment by beatthedrum — January 15, 2009 @ 10:36 am
Hey what you trying to say?!
Just kidding, I think thats just inappropriate attire full stop. I mean, please wear a skirt rather than a belt for a start…!!
Having said that does bring back memories to when I had to dress up as a slutty jester for a Gilbert and Sullivan production at uni. Hadn’t realised what my costume was going to be like until after some of the elders of my church told me they’d got tickets to come and see us.
Oh cringe!
Comment by brunettekoala — January 15, 2009 @ 10:57 am
i don’t know whats inappropriate for guy…although the length of my hair has caused consternation…whilst commenting people often feel compelled (by the holy spirit?) to tug at the ends or ruffle it…i tried to hide it under a bushel…sorry i mean hat…although i think placing a bushel atop my nape might have drawn less interest in church
(jody…ian hislop…really!?…personally i go for jessica rabbit…perhaps thats why i dig asbo so)
Comment by darrin — January 15, 2009 @ 11:14 am
personally I just don’t get these people who can play guitar left handed. It just looks wrong. Sort it out JOn
Comment by Will — January 15, 2009 @ 12:01 pm
My opposing thoughts
1. It’s not right to judge a person by what they look like. What’s more important is in their heart.
When someone dresses provocatively it might be ’cause they want to cause trouble, or be admired, or becuase they think that’s the best way to celebrate their body before they get old and wrinkly, or (and, personally, well for me anyway, i think this is the main reason) because they don’t feel good about themselves. They want/need some attention.
If you just tell a person to put some clothes on, that hardly goes deep enough to get to the heart of the matter does it?
A church shouldn’t force everyone to act the same according to its most conservative members… we should care about each other…. We should care about the effect we have on one another. Most importantly we need to be able to reveal what’s going on in our hearts.
Comment by Sparrow — January 15, 2009 @ 12:11 pm
I think there’s responsibility on both sides; yes, I don’t wear the clothes to church I go out in on a Saturday night, but I should be able to wear a skirt and tights without anyone looking askance. We’re responsible for our own thoughts.
Jody: SO glad I am not the only one with weird/possibly wrong thing for Ian Hislop
Comment by theseoldshades — January 15, 2009 @ 12:13 pm
Hey!! I like it.
Comment by Craig L. Adams — January 15, 2009 @ 12:14 pm
Sorry I just realised my thoughts aren’t very opposing! Bad title…
Comment by Sparrow — January 15, 2009 @ 12:14 pm
Its not about peoples opinions, im an ex punk and skinhead, I like alternative clothing and styles but if by wearing them I cause someone to stumble then that is not good.
Things like this have to explained to people.
http://www.beatthedrum.wordpress.com
Comment by beatthedrum — January 15, 2009 @ 12:24 pm
Darrin – the first words out of one monastics mouth to me were “Can I just says something? Get a haircut.” Somehow I managed to get away with replying “No because a punch in the face often offends” in a jocular manner…
I caused a stir with my attire the other day. It was windy and cold so I put on a hat. Apparantly a baseball cap is not appropriate attire whilst wearing a cassock.
OK – the question has been asked so here we go. Top ten innapropriate attires for a man leading worship:
One. Although I suspect that it may be OK to ‘pick up chicks’ dressed like this… if you own a time machine…
Two. You may be able to reupholster your car in your victims skin in this attire. Lead worship? Perhaps not.
Three. Perhaps you could help out on Red Sonia II in this particular attire. I have it on good authority that a friend of mine thought that he had “made it” when he saw them in his teenage years….
Four. I mean – come one!! Perhaps if you worked with a curate called Jane and a Youth Leader called Freddie. Then you could do the childrens talk with a puppet called Zippy…
Five. Enough said.
Six. They look like some Good Ol’ Boys….
Seven. Theodopolous P Wildebeast!!
Eight. Can you imagine any man regardless of how well built they are, or how much they love themselves, coming to church dressed like this?
Nine/ Just ready for the baptism…
Ten. With voyuristic intentions…
There are many innapropriate ways to dress as a man and you just don’t.
I’m not a suit wearer or a particularly conservative dresser. I tend to get in trouble with the bishop for facial piercings and “dressing innapropriately”. I recently retired a t-shirt because I couldn’t see a situation in which I could wear it anymore. As a teacher I put on my suit and took out my piercings because otherwise it stopped the pupils from learning. The job wasn’t being done because people were focussing on me and what I was wearing. The same thing applies.
Thats why I wear robes. There are no questions.
I do occasionally comments from the older ladies such as “We love your boots” because they saw them when they knealt for communion. Mostly it is good natured. Having said that I haven’t yet worn the purple camoflage stole….
I recently was told off for wearing this T-shirt. I think I made polite ‘get stuffed’ intimations…
The conversation came around to “did they know…” to which I may have responded “when I first arrived for interview I did so in black leather wearing a black helmet and riding a black big twin harley with straight through pipes. I don’t think they can have missed me arriving like I belonged in Terminator 2″.
I didn’t realise how bolshy I am until I wrote this. I better go and repent……
Comment by Robb — January 15, 2009 @ 1:03 pm
I’m personally more concerned that she put on one stocking and not the other…..
Comment by dadube — January 15, 2009 @ 2:18 pm
With a worship leader like that would def be a magnet to the lost
Comment by andy t — January 15, 2009 @ 2:45 pm
justadropbox@aol.com
Comment by mfst***9kZi8w6F — January 15, 2009 @ 2:52 pm
ian hislop?… makes sense to me. he’s witty, charming, thoughtful, great smile, seems like a good bloke, doesn’t mind the joke being on him… yep… good choice i think.
all my growing up this was an issue for me. always in some kind of dispute over my choice of clothes.
once, when i was going to lead a service at a local c of e, i got to the door, was just about to take my hat off, when an old lady (door greeting person) told me that wearing a hat was rude in the extreme and i should remove it immediately. that was annoying. so, i wrote a letter and got a lovely apology from the vicar who said he’d ‘had words’.
personally, i like miniskirts. i like legs. to be honest, i find a million and one things sexy on a woman. so there you go… there’s no way of me ever not being distracted… oh well.
Comment by jonbirch — January 15, 2009 @ 2:53 pm
@andy t (28): Here in Germany, we have a word for that: “Mit Speck fängt man Mäuse”. In English, this should be “You need a sprat to catch a mackerel” (if I am googling in the right direction). So this worship outfit could be useful for reaching the unchurched. And to allure more man to our services, which – at least in our church – have a very high female proportion.
Comment by Maggi — January 15, 2009 @ 3:14 pm
I have read a lot of comments about women causing men to stumble because of what they are wearing, but what about the guys who wear clothes that cause women to stumble. I have seen a lot of guy worship leaders wearing tight jeans and the like.
Comment by ponderingwanderer — January 15, 2009 @ 3:45 pm
theseoldshades @ 23: Should we be worried that I have a thing about the lovely Ian H as well?
Comment by theseoldshades — January 15, 2009 @ 3:54 pm
Ah…and I didn’t notice that you’d posted a comment from my netbook – so that last one doesn’t make much sense!!
Comment by pat — January 15, 2009 @ 3:57 pm
I posted a post that seems to be lost in the spam filter. Jon, could you fish it out please??
Pretty please??
Comment by Robb — January 15, 2009 @ 4:18 pm
aha… i think i see why it ended up in the spam filter!
your comment is at no.27. 
Comment by jonbirch — January 15, 2009 @ 4:31 pm
exceptional links again robb!
Comment by jonbirch — January 15, 2009 @ 4:33 pm
I agree that if you dress as a burlesque performer at church it’s a little weird.
That said, Christian culture pisses me off at times for its misogyny – too much blame put on women like it’s their responsibility for not leading men astray. The filthy harlots.
I also think Church should be a place where we put aside our differences and don’t judge others. Even if someone comes in wearing something entirely inappropriate, we should embrace them as a child of God. I think there’s a lot of middle-class snobbery in the Church. Like if someone a bit rough walked in, they wouldn’t be accepted. Perfect example – in Borat when he brings a prostitute in to the uber-snobby Christian meal and they’re like EWWWWW!
Peter Rollins talks about church being a place where we theatrically perform the notion of all being one in Christ, and set aside as completely as possible our cultural, political, religious, gender, national, economic etc differences, in the hopes that we will be transformed by this performance and maybe become a little more recognisant outside of the church context of our similarities and see more of Christ in each other:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=F_QETeY5fFw&feature=related
Comment by theginjaninja — January 15, 2009 @ 4:42 pm
I am suprised I managed to write so much html without making a pigs ear of it! I think I can see why it was deemed spam as well
I must have too much time on my hands if I can spend so much time surfing the net looking for pictures
Better go and repent (for the second time this thread!!)!
Comment by Robb — January 15, 2009 @ 4:42 pm
I have got to start going to your churches. Where are all these skantily clad women you speak of?
I must ask Dr Ruth if anyone has ever said anything about the way she dresses. She has been known to wear whatever she wants whenever she wants… I don’t recall anyone ever saying anything to her… ever…
I must have just been lucky with the places where I have worshipped unless there is a secret misogynic sect working out the back.
Comment by Robb — January 15, 2009 @ 4:48 pm
You should be allowed to wear what you like to church, in my opinion. Shouldn’t we focus on the fact that someone has turned up to try and strengthen their relationship with God and their brothers and sisters in Christ, rather than fussing about their skirt length?
If someone turned up naked to church I’d probably think good for them! (Has to look like Colin Firth, obviously.)
I judge people by the way they look all the time, and get distracted by the way someone dresses, whether they dress well or not. This is definitely my problem and flaw that I need to sort out, and I would never want someone to change dressing the way they feel comfortable in for my sake.
Comment by Hayles — January 15, 2009 @ 4:58 pm
# 40
‘We should embrace them as a child of God.’
Well said.
Comment by Hayles — January 15, 2009 @ 5:00 pm
re: dude’s attires – I agree – that’s why I’m glad the priests are in robes. It’s really, really hard to concentrate when there’s a hot guy giving a talk and to paraphrase the late, great Mae West, you’re not sure if he’s happy to see you or packing a potato.
42. I seek out worship experiences where everyone is welcomed just as they are regardless of their body piercings, too tight jeans, dirty clothes (a sign of a healthy church to me is when the homeless they serve feel like joining in for the Sunday service), etc. Having said that, I have seen plenty of talk by some holy hipster worship leaders/speakers decked out in sexy gear talking about being “one like christ” but by they are flirting like hell with their attire and body language. I’ve found this tends to produce a cult of personality where those of us who aren’t of the groupie mindset tend to head for the hills.
Comment by becky — January 15, 2009 @ 5:01 pm
My wife’s great aunt was once arrested for showing her ankles on the beach… a Muslim woman sued for divorce when her husband peeked under her burkah… g-string bikinis are all the rage on South Beach. Who is the arbiter of “appropriate attire”?
Comment by Bro. Dave — January 15, 2009 @ 5:11 pm
I think a lot of this has to do with jealousy. It’s like the whole school thing of having the pretty popular girls who do their hair just so when other girls can’t quite pull it off, and the boys who look cool in scraggy clothes as opposed to looking plain silly.
I think we need to address these feelings and also be kind to people that feel the need to be ‘flirting’, as becky describes.
None of us are perfect, and putting us all in conventional clothes that no-one disapproves of isn’t going to change what’s in our hearts and minds. That’s where God comes in!
Comment by Hayles — January 15, 2009 @ 5:15 pm
can I just chime in and say how sexy I think Ian Hislop is too??? I love his cute little smile when he laughs – mmmmm
Comment by dadube — January 15, 2009 @ 6:10 pm
Bingo Haley – often people are just being mean. The comments made to me when i was in my alb and in my twenties were done by older women who were jealous they weren’t my age. I still get it a bit by people who can’t believe I’m in my late 40s because I still look like a grad student.
The problem for me is when the worship leader/preacher/speaker feels the need to dress and act in a way to ensure that they become the object of worship. I saw some of this at Greenbelt – what concerned me were how the young and very impressionable kids were being drawn into a form of idol worship where the person or the group was being worshiped not Jesus. It is just a very weird and uncomfortable situation – I feel like at any moment a missional make-out session is about to take place.
NOW I’ve seen other leaders who dressed just as non-traditional but yet their demeanor didn’t scream “look at me.” Those services tend to really rock because we’re all there just as we are and our focus is on experiencing God as we understand God.
Comment by becky — January 15, 2009 @ 6:15 pm
Well I suggest that Ian Hislop should always wear robes at his Prayer Book Society related services so as not to cause any undue arousal amonst the BCP community!!
Comment by Robb — January 15, 2009 @ 6:19 pm
I think I find the whole ‘appropriateness’ thing a bit confusing. Part of me says, “who give a monkey’s what people wear?” and part of me is stuck in the groove of upbringing. If I go for a job interview, I wear a suit, because I have been brought up to think of that as appropriate. If ever I had a court appearance, I feel that I would create a better impression by dressing in more formal attire. When our extended family spent the weekend together recently, I wore jeans, t-shirt and trainers all weekend which was suitable for relaxing and walking. We all sniggered at my one of my gorgeous nieces (of which I have a number) tottered on the muddy grass in stilettoes, tight jeans and cutesie top whilst participating in the boules tournament. Not especially fit for purpose (my phrase of the week!)
The least appropriate thing I feel I have ever seen a worshipper wearing to church is a Man United strip…substituting trainers for boots.
Comment by Carole — January 15, 2009 @ 6:21 pm
How dare you impinge on the rights of women to wear whatever they want!? We’re free aren’t we, as christians? To suggest otherwise is sexist! We’d never reject a man wearing those! In fact, we were created naked, so that’s obviously the best way – why can’t she do it naked?!
Comment by Lewis — January 15, 2009 @ 6:25 pm
Ian Hislop in robes…..that would be the icing on the cake Rob!
Comment by pat — January 15, 2009 @ 6:28 pm
Ian Hislop in robes…..that would be the icing on the cake Robb!
Comment by pat — January 15, 2009 @ 6:28 pm
All I can think of now is Ian Hislop leading worship in sexy underwear! I think I might fancy him myself now..
Comment by dennis — January 15, 2009 @ 6:28 pm
I don’t think Jon could possibly have foreseen where this thread would go re: Ian Hislop. One of the more surreal threads I’ve read!
Comment by Kim — January 15, 2009 @ 7:02 pm
Eek, anyone know where nakedpastor’s site has gone?
Comment by Kim — January 15, 2009 @ 7:03 pm
or you could just say ‘inappropriate worship leading’, and find a more communal way of meeting and worshipping
Comment by subo — January 15, 2009 @ 7:31 pm
to be honest… ian hislop is one of my heroes… so he can take up as much of the thread as he likes.
Comment by jonbirch — January 15, 2009 @ 7:42 pm
Why is the worship leader Center stage anyhoo? I reckon, put the band in the corner and let them wear what they want
It should be about the worship not about what the band is wearing. Our normal band doesn’t normally have much of a fashion sense that includes lil skirts and one of those scary under pant stocking thingies on one leg anyhoo! haha!
Comment by Anna — January 15, 2009 @ 8:56 pm
kim… i emailed naked pastor to let him know his site was down. it should be up again shortly. he was surprised it was down and is checking into it. thanks for the heads up.
Comment by jonbirch — January 15, 2009 @ 9:13 pm
re. ian hislop. i’ve just noticed all the little bald men in the cartoon look a bit like him… maybe that is why the thread has gone that way. i love it when these threads go completely off topic… hilarious!
Comment by jonbirch — January 15, 2009 @ 9:15 pm
Thanks Jon – he said his server was playing up earlier in the week I think.
last few days I’ve really looked forward to grabbing a break to read up all the comments, as the toons were so fabulous and some of the readership are exceptionally witty people. Ace, thanks.
Comment by Kim — January 15, 2009 @ 9:20 pm
I imagine there’s another couple of Ian Hislops nestling on top of the guitar too.
Comment by JF — January 15, 2009 @ 11:19 pm
haha!
Comment by jonbirch — January 16, 2009 @ 12:13 am
kim… naked pastor is back… hooray!
Comment by jonbirch — January 16, 2009 @ 5:50 am
anyone else dream about ian hislop last night?
Comment by darrin — January 16, 2009 @ 8:11 am
Cheers Jon, I missed him!
Comment by Kim — January 16, 2009 @ 8:55 am
Darrin @ 66 – would we admit if we had?
Comment by pat — January 16, 2009 @ 9:27 am
I like the way all the smiley faces are looking at the bloke’s face…
Comment by TyTe — January 16, 2009 @ 10:45 am
I always think Father Crilly does a lovely worship/mass
Comment by subo — January 16, 2009 @ 10:59 am
Isn’t that the best programme on tv? It makes me scream even though I’ve seen them all a million times.
Comment by Kim — January 16, 2009 @ 11:17 am
I do love a good mass (T minus 7 minutes and counting – better hurry up otherwise someone will notice I’m not there!)
Comment by Robb — January 16, 2009 @ 12:21 pm
Hope you make it – can’t get the image of those boots peeping out under robes out of my mind, that would make my day.
Comment by Kim — January 16, 2009 @ 12:25 pm
What would fun would be Bill Bailey leading worship on the keyboard.. and going off on tangents during the songs
http://www.beatthedrum.wordpress.com
Comment by beatthedrum — January 16, 2009 @ 12:50 pm
Yeah Bill Bailey would be fun.
Comment by dennis — January 16, 2009 @ 2:18 pm
“Washed in the blood…” Thats not very good is it what about the veggies and vegans their not going to like that are they….
AHHHH BLOOD
http://www.beatthedrum.wordpress.com
Comment by beatthedrum — January 16, 2009 @ 2:47 pm
Kim – I live 20 years away from college so it isn’t a big deal. I sometimes am in bed closer to a service than 7 minutes!! 7:30 is a killer. I am a firm believer in the first church of Jesus Christ and the later in the day saints. Mattins should happen at 11:59!!
For you and all of the other foot fetishists out there here is a picture of my feet.
Beatthedrum – My duck lies shredded in a pancake!!!
Comment by Robb — January 16, 2009 @ 4:19 pm
Jon – the stupid thing is catching me in the filter again!! I think I better write to akismet again!!
Comment by Robb — January 16, 2009 @ 4:20 pm
I also quite like Ian Hislop
Comment by Sophie — January 16, 2009 @ 4:42 pm
- and going off on tangents, who needs BB, every WL is a pass master at this
Comment by subo — January 16, 2009 @ 5:14 pm
Oh. I were mini skirts when leading Sunday School and the kids don’t complain!
Comment by Ros — January 16, 2009 @ 5:15 pm
Subo – what is this crazy code you speak in?
Comment by Robb — January 16, 2009 @ 5:17 pm
Hey – I didn’t get filtered that time!!
Stupid filter. I posted the photo on my blog so you foot fetishists can get your thrills!
Comment by Robb — January 16, 2009 @ 5:18 pm
sorry Robb, just pointing out that most worship leaders often travel obscure tangents, leaving Bill Bailey’s mindwanderings in the land of the sane
basically I have a problem with the concept that someone can ‘lead worship’, they can serve the community in providing an invitation to worship, or they can imagine they’re in a little world of specialdome, where they’re hot line to God is much hotter than anyone elses
however, i’ve begun to realise there is a positive side to the little bubbles church leaders cocoon themselves in, they are miles from reality, and of intense irritation to others, but the feeling your doing something wonderful keeps these wanaby worship leaders jammin away
however, i’d love to find a church where a band played the music
Comment by subo — January 16, 2009 @ 5:35 pm
@ 51: “How dare you impinge on the rights of women to wear whatever they want!? We’re free aren’t we, as christians? To suggest otherwise is sexist! We’d never reject a man wearing those! In fact, we were created naked, so that’s obviously the best way – why can’t she do it naked?!”
Backlash much?
I’m referring to shit like this:
http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/03/26/do-hard-things-but-not-that-hard-a-response-to-the-modesty-survey-and-the-rebelution/
http://happyfeminist.typepad.com/happyfeminist/2007/03/a_while_back_a_.html
Comment by theginjaninja — January 16, 2009 @ 5:53 pm
Thanks Robb!
Comment by Kim — January 16, 2009 @ 7:02 pm
Aha – BB is Bill Bailey and WL is worship leader. It all makes sense.
I mentioned BB in my spam filtered post….
Kim – You’re welcome
Comment by Robb — January 16, 2009 @ 7:18 pm
my (now) husband used to lead worship – when we did church in that kind of way- I was 17 and hoped each sunday that he was leading worship that week, as he always wore jeans with a huge hole in the backside, I loved it when he turned around and his ass hung out- def improved my worship experience!! – it’s alright I did eventually marry him
Comment by soniamain — January 16, 2009 @ 7:53 pm
you lustful thing, sonia. i’m shocked!
Comment by jonbirch — January 17, 2009 @ 12:00 am
out of the filter now robb. yup, spammed again! akismet clearly hates you.
Comment by jonbirch — January 17, 2009 @ 12:04 am
I just looked at the cartoon again, and an image of Ian Dury and the Blockheads doing a version of ’sex and church and rock’n'roll’ would work well.
Comment by Kim — January 17, 2009 @ 1:01 am
doh, that didn’t sound right but its late and has been a very mixed evening. sorry..
Comment by Kim — January 17, 2009 @ 1:03 am
that’s my favourite ian dury track kim.
Comment by jonbirch — January 17, 2009 @ 2:55 am
88. I think the sight of seeing some clergy’s backsides (or even their front bits) sounds more like hell than heaven – sort of like catching a glimpse of the Pillsbury Dough Boy going to the bathroom.
Comment by becky — January 17, 2009 @ 7:41 am
it was alright becky- my lovely ans backside has always been pert!
Comment by soniamain — January 17, 2009 @ 8:16 am
Good to hear that. Sounds like he was a hot young dude doing his thing – I have no problem with that. In fact, I might be guilty a bit of committing the sin of envy here.
It’s the whole manipulation of one’s sexuality and power in the name of God that really pisses me off – because that’s when the vulnerable and impressionable can really get hurt by some self-absorbed religious leader.
Comment by becky — January 17, 2009 @ 9:23 am
Jon, its mine too. But what on earth are we doing up so late!?
Comment by Kim — January 17, 2009 @ 9:29 am
I don’t get it? What’s so inappropriate about it? I wear this all the time!
Oh… and thanks for missing me! But I’m back. Thanks Kim and Jon
Comment by nakedpastor — January 17, 2009 @ 12:24 pm
Hey, np! All the blogmeisters in one place, hurrah! I wonder if there could be a ‘Rocky Horror Show Emergent Fresh Expression’ church, run by Ian Hislop and Robb in his boots, with Jon as WL? Bring it on
)
Comment by Kim — January 17, 2009 @ 1:51 pm
referring back to 86. I just remembered at New Wine last year I sat behind a couple (fully clothed at that point mercifully)who had just come back from The Isle of Wight where they’d been on a Christian nudist holiday – ‘you know, its how God made us and we’ve got to get back to our created state’ etc etc. Vowed never to go to IOW again.
Comment by Kim — January 17, 2009 @ 1:57 pm
who said the worship leader was a dude?!
Personally, I don’t think you have to lose your creativity or personality or ‘alternative’ style just because you’re not dressing provacatively (i.e. showing lots of flesh and cleavage).
And I’m sorry, but my absolute pet peeve is when people lean forward to pray (it just seems to happen when people pray for some reason) and the person in front of you has low cut trousers, and a high rise brightly coloured thong….which is basically staring you in the face…
But I do LOVE rocky horror. lol.
Comment by brunettekoala — January 17, 2009 @ 3:45 pm
hey… nakedpastor… my favourite blogger!!! greetings! good to have you back!
Comment by jonbirch — January 17, 2009 @ 4:31 pm
i’ve sussed it!
girl in a mini skirt = 100+ comments. i’ve been barking up the wrong tree all these months!
kim… hmmm not good… got working late… in the flow… bad habit… blah, blah.
Comment by jonbirch — January 17, 2009 @ 4:48 pm
I had a crowd of friends over and then when they left, I was too wired to go to sleep – but no-one else is chatting that late at night. There was bad news too and its hard to sleep then.
Comment by Kim — January 17, 2009 @ 5:08 pm
Brilliant cartoon, Jon. Makes me rememember some wonderful occasions when your lovely wife and I startled various unsuspecting passers-by with our Rocky Horror outfits. Happy days!
We didn’t actually go to church in them, but I do recall a rather entertaining evening in the local A&E….
Robb: Love the boots! I think he cassock sets them off rather well
The Bill Bailey clip is hilarious – how on earth do you find all these gems?
By the way, did your really mean “years” at 77, or should it have been the rather more prosaic “yards”??
Carole (50): Yep, me too. Thankfully, I don’t often have to confront this particular personal demon because I go to a ‘nice’ church where people dress ‘properly’. Perhaps I should disturb my comfort-zone and look for somewhere more challenging in this respect …
Comment by janetp — January 17, 2009 @ 7:02 pm
hey janetp… nice to see you. hope you’re okay.
it was five-a-side that wired me kim… should play it in the morning really.
Comment by jonbirch — January 17, 2009 @ 7:49 pm
I’m a bear of little brain…
we start with a cartoon about inappropriate worship leading attre
and then certain of our number worry about not being able to see ‘Naked Pastor’
should I be worried?
Comment by Caroline Too — January 17, 2009 @ 10:26 pm
98. Photos, oh Photos. I love going to church where people feel they can bring all of who they are (and that includes their wardrobe) into church.
Red flags get raised for me more when leaders are using their bodies as a manipulation tool. That’s a different topic all together.
Comment by becky — January 17, 2009 @ 11:12 pm
caroline too… hahaha!
becky… i don’t know that many leaders whose bodies are tool enough to manipulate me. i’m a bit of a tool (british vulgarity: plank, dolt, buffoon, fool)… but that’s also a different topic altogether!
Comment by jonbirch — January 18, 2009 @ 12:57 am
Ian Hislop?? Really??
Hmmmmmm….
Comment by Laura — January 18, 2009 @ 1:16 am
Jon – yet another word that got mangled when it crossed the pond – this brings back memories I had the summer of 2007 when I used the word “fanny pack” on Jonny’s blog. I still think “bumbags” sounds gross. ;->
This reminds me of a famous quote made by US Supreme Court Justice Potter when he was asked to cast a pornography ruling. “I know it when I see it.” It’s more an intuitive feeling – There’s the hot worship leader that’s good eye candy – no harm done. If someone has a problem a religious leader that’s easy on the eyes, I think they might want to pray about what issues in their lives need to be resolved.
And then there’s the 9 O’Clock service. We (meaning the community) need to be aware when something’s going from harmless eye candy into something else where as I’ve noted, commandments aren’t broken but boundaries are crossed. This is especially true if we’re dealing with populations that are recovering from abuse, addictions and the like. For me, it’s a matter of paying attention to my gut that something doesn’t feel right.
Comment by becky — January 18, 2009 @ 5:53 am
A red guitar? The slut!
Comment by Jonathan — January 18, 2009 @ 8:22 am
Hi Jon (106): I’m fine thanks, just rather more busy than I’d like with work. You & Clare ok?
Comment by janetp — January 18, 2009 @ 5:36 pm
we’re okay thanks jp. not bad at all. glad you’re good.
jonathan… very wrong and very funny.
Comment by jonbirch — January 19, 2009 @ 3:16 am
Kim @99 ill come along to that… but only if i can dress up!
Comment by beatthedrum — January 19, 2009 @ 10:44 am
Last year I went to a youth event at our local cathedral. There were loads of Christian bands dotted round the place and as one finished their set another would take the stage.
As one group were finishing their last number a troup of 8 teenage girls arrived dressed as Nuns. At this point you want to be thinking Hen-Night, not Convent.
I made to leave, but was stopped by a particularly attractive member of the sisters who tried to persuade me to stick around for their performance.
I don’t think I lied as I made my excuses, but I certainly didn’t tell the truth. She didn’t need to hear about “lust issues” from a man twice her age!
Comment by Chris Sharp — January 20, 2009 @ 9:44 am
A left-handed guitar player. That’s unusual.
Comment by ED... — January 20, 2009 @ 11:47 pm
‘She didn’t need to hear about “lust issues” from a man twice her age!’…
you probably did the right thing chris. i reckon just about all men have ‘lust issues’ as you call them, but few are man enough to admit it. i guess it’s not about how you feel, but what you do about how you feel. would it be true to say that stirrings are normal, but practise can be changed?
Comment by jonbirch — January 21, 2009 @ 12:36 am
Jon – I’d go one step further. I’d argue that fiascos like Jim Bakker and Ted Haggard happen in large part because these dudes repressed their stirrings to the point where it all imploded. They also seemed to be extremely isolated without anyone around to help guide them.
Comment by becky — January 21, 2009 @ 2:22 pm
Becky – There is an inherent problem with the Christian faith as it is perceived by society. It is seen as being a club for the sanctified. It is a society for the holy.
This means that if such a public perception is adhered to it instils a sense of inadequacy and unholyness as it is impossible to live up to. We also have huge baggage about commandment 7 that when people worry about number 9 they feel ashamed and start hiding themselves*. This can lead to the implosion.
Here is the problem, the faith is all about forgiveness and sanctification through Christ.
*Quick translation – people are scared of sex and anything to do with sex and worry a lot about having sex with people they shouldn’t have sex with and then worry about the way that they have just thought about having sex with someone they shouldn’t have sex with because sex is a sexual thing and we have plenty of sexual morality baggage. (are you keeping up).
When people think about sex they often think about having sex so the sex that they are thinking of becomes a thought that is an unclean thought (still with me). Unclean thoughts are bad, particularly unclean thoughts about sex with the wrong type of person (oops, here’s a whole can of worms being opened here for those of you who like to define ‘the right sort of person’). As we all know, having thoughts is a bad thing, particularly unclean thoughts (and we all know that the Daily Mail says that unclean thoughts of a sexual nature are the worst kind of thoughts). Well bad thoughts are as bad as bad actions (because the thought police are watching and checking up on you). We all know that Jesus wasn’t keen on sexual thoughts. In fact, by breaking commandment 9 and thinking about breaking commandment 7 you have actually broken….
Essentially, we let people outside of the church define what the faith of those within the church should be and we let them give us enough baggage to screw our minds up with newspaper headlines and ’scandal’ that people end up hiding…. in the scandal (sounds daft doesn’t it).
The light eradicates the darkness. When you hide your darkness from the light, all you have is darkness… and darkness consumes.
Comment by Robb — January 21, 2009 @ 4:30 pm
Robb – Excellent point. As a writer, all kinds of weird thoughts cross my desk – what I learned through therapy and spiritual direction is that we need places we can go to process the stuff that’s in our heads to give us some much needed perspective. This place gives that to me in spades. And I just joined a lay monastic community based in Oregon whose urban Celtic vibe really appealed to me – thanks to email, we still connect.
BTW-I find that the uber liberal leaders who tend to be acting inappropriately with their fans tend to come from very conservative and repressed backgrounds. In their rebellion, they threw away all rules and found themselves in equally toxic and dark places.
What I’m starting to find in some alt. w./emergent type settings is that the charismatic leaders can really can put on the charm to where you think you’re prat of this cool community but in the end, it’s all about them. I am coming out of what I thought was a friendship with one such person – what I thought was the beginning of a professional relationship was a dude latching on to a writer in the hopes I’d promote his narcissistic ass.
Even though I know a person like this can never be a real friend (his female buddies are really groupies who will do anything to help him), there’s still a void that was filled by his emails. Add to this a host of emotions that come to the surface when I see other women (and some men) still get sucked in to this seemingly cool beyond cool scene that is really one sided and toxic. My friends have helped me get some much needed perspective here by noting how this ministry lost it’s Christ center – without them I am not sure I could have walked away from this situation.
if it weren’t for the Christians who I’ve met over the years around me who help direct me towards the light, I am sure I’d be pushing daisies these days.
Comment by becky — January 21, 2009 @ 7:48 pm
excellent stuff robb.
bless you becky.
Comment by jonbirch — January 21, 2009 @ 11:20 pm
You’re welcome – I met part of the community – I realize prat is not a nice word in the UK. Sorry for ranting – I’m having a bad time here in NYC – this emergent church ™ BS some days really, really gets to me. Just found out that above mentioned “friend” s is coming to NYC and once again, i am blown off. I know I shouldn’t let this get to me – but I’m human.
Comment by becky — January 22, 2009 @ 4:09 am
becky…prat seems like a suitable word to use for the person as you describe them (we have much worster words in the uk that would also seem appropriate)
Comment by darrin — January 23, 2009 @ 3:38 pm
Thanks Darrin – I’m not doing so hot. I’m just blown away that someone I really reached out to help blew me off as soon as he got a bit of fame – this has happened with a very small clique of folks in the US and UK – it’s so clear they just wanted me for my media contacts and not me – and now that they’ve gotten a tiny touch of fame, they seek people who place them on a pedestal instead of real-time friends. I just thought I was making real friends to find out it was a kind of a fraud.
Comment by becky — January 24, 2009 @ 6:51 am
LOVE this, Jon. L-O-V-E this.
In my worship-leading history, I’ve actually been thanked for dressing appropriately.
Comment by Amy (Gustafson) Oden — January 30, 2009 @ 2:20 am
hmmmm… amy. i’m sorry i missed it.
Comment by jonbirch — January 30, 2009 @ 5:10 am