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your cartoon for the weekend comes at the request of hayles.

i hope you all enjoy your sunday lunch. :-)

chicken

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About jonbirch

animator, illustrator, character designer, graphic designer. music producer/recording musician. co-owner of PROOST. proost.co.uk
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80 Responses to 643

  1. dennis says:

    I think I better recharge my BATTERIES then with a trip to KFC!

  2. battery farming is evil.
    evil. evil. evil.
    blech.

  3. ED... says:

    Corn-fed free-range tastes a lot better too…

  4. dadube says:

    Oooo this is a hard one for me – in the UK I bought free range eggs, free range chickens, organic stuff etc. Here in Bahrain the choice is very limited. I have the choice of local produce that hasn’t been treated very well or I buy things from the western type supermarkets which has been flown here and has another negative side to it because of the fuel used etc. Very tricky.

  5. darrin says:

    i expect hugh fearnley-whittingstall to swoop in and liberate these caged fowl any moment now

    (ps glad this cartoon doesnt come with added scratch and stiff)

  6. becky says:

    I was doing free range and organic until the economy tanked now it’s a real struggle and I confess I’m not as good as I should be.

  7. James says:

    My family have always tried to get free range and when possible organic food.

    But then what about the chicken mayo jacket potato I had at college yesterday? or the Chicken Pizza I had for tea, I don’t actually know where the meat for these came from.

  8. soniamain says:

    it is really hard, I have tried to only buy free range chicken, but like you becky with the recent credit crisis it does make it harder. Although I do find myself picturing the chickens on Hughs experiment when I look at the chicken in the cold cabinets!

  9. Carole says:

    Dadube – isnt’ life just one big minefield of dilemma? It’s really hard to do the right thing – it often seems the best we can do is to settle for the lesser evil all the time.

    I am a meat-eater…my gripe with me is that I would not kill to eat (I don’t think so anyway) but I am quite happy to do the sanitised polystyrene tray and cling film arrangement. I can detach myself from the reality of it, in a way. Having kept a variety of pets over the years, I do find my conscience pricks me from time to time. A couple of years ago I was planning a trip to Peru (didn’t get there) but I was very nervous about the fact that over there the guinea pig is eaten much as chickens are here, they are reared for eating. We had two gorgeous little guineas then and I would have felt so disloyal to my little pals if I’d found myself tucking into some local delicacy containing guinea pig. Maybe one day I will find my way to vegetarianism…I dunno. But bacon sarnies always do it for me…or barbecue spare ribs. I always feel slightly repulsed when I see huge platters of chicken drumsticks – how many chickens had to die for that finger buffet?

    My miniscule, token gesture? I always buy organic free range eggs, occasionally buy organic milk (I’m not sure how this benefits anyone/anything but it gives me a warm glow). I watched the Hugh Fearnley Whatsit programme and felt committed to free range chicken…until I saw the price of it. That makes me feel disappointed with myself. Maybe when I get a proper job.

  10. theseoldshades says:

    My local supermarket (Tesco eeeeeevil) doesn’t even sell free range chicken! I don’t buy Tesco Value though in an attempt to salve my conscience. I do always buy free range eggs and annoy my housemates by always bugging them to. They make much better cakes- battery eggs are so pale you don’t get the gorgeous yellow sponge!

    But then when we’re having special house days we always have ‘Miss Millie’s Fried Chicken’ which is like a Welsh KFC and that’s probably battery.

    Carole- We did the ethics of vegetarianism earlier this semester and that made me think I should turn, but I too love the bacon sarnie!

  11. cooperton says:

    I watched Hugh FW too and felt really impressed at him for using his position to try and make a change to things – and for showing us an uncomfortable truth about animal welfare, and big business mentality.

    I’ve since been reading ‘Tescopoly’. Oh. My. Word. I’ve been getting something of an insight into how far this problem stretches. Big supermarkets have driven down the price of foods at the cost of *someone else* (the supplier, the worker in the store, the worker in the field, local economies) to make us believe that there is such a thing as cheap food. There isn’t. Food will cost the same amount, it will just be paid for by someone else – in this case, the chicken, the farming community in Britain.

    I’ve felt thoroughly undone by reading this book. It’s blown all sorts of myths out of the water for me. One biggy being that the way out of the recession is to buy cheaper stuff. It isn’t. It is only going to put more money in the pockets of the share holders, you know, the city, the ones who got us in this mess. It’ll do this by taking money out of local economies worldwide and pretending that ‘every little helps’.

    Lucky for me, I still have the same income as before the recession. I’ve not lost my job so I have the same budget I always had (it’s not much, but it’s not gone down), and I don’t have debts to contend with.

    I’m thinking as a result of reading this that I need to start shopping at grocers, butchers, and co-ops as a RESULT of the recession, to put money back into local people’s pockets and keep businesses and livelihoods alive even if it costs me more, and just cut back on other types of spending altogether to allow for it. Yikes.

  12. henry says:

    cooperton (11): exactly. why is this so hard to understand for most britons?

    another thing is that the western diet contains _way_ too much meat, it’s simply not sustainable and efficient to eat that much meat. it’s the way farmers have been pushed, though, since it makes the most profit.

  13. subo says:

    thoughtful stuff folks, and good to hear the truth, Cooperton,

    i’ve recently realised the prices at my local italian deli (http://www.licata.co.uk/), are often better than the supermarkets

    i very much think our positive vote, ie buying occasionally from fair trade/organic/free range producers, has more impact than avoiding stuff

  14. Hayles says:

    Yay, thanks Jon!

    Carole, did you watch Jamie Saves Our Bacon on Thursday night? I think it might cure your bacon sandwich cravings, particularly when you see the conditions in Europe (where most of our bacon comes from).

    Quite a lot of people seem to have commented that they can’t afford the more expensive meat, which I find very confusing. Isn’t it more that you can, but you’d rather have that extra couple of pounds for other things? A bottle of wine, a multipack of crisps, a DVD rental? An animal’s welfare should always be worth your money. Also, let me assure you, you can never be too poor to NOT buy meat! It is very cheap not buying meat. There are so many other sources of cheaper nutrition available, and buying a vegetarian cookbook will open your eyes to just how exciting, varied and healthy vegetarian cooking can be.
    See: http://www.compassionatecooks.com/
    They have some brilliant podcasts as well.

    Buying ‘standard’ meat is not an indication that you are not taking a stand, it is actively funding animal cruelty. When you pay for your cheap meat, you are paying for someone to be cruel to an animal, and as horrible as that sounds, that is the reality. If we stopped buying it, these animals would stop living in these unimaginable conditions (I am thinking particularly here of the sow stalls Jamie talked about, in which pigs are kept for 5 YEARS in cages the width and length of their body, so that they cannot turn around or even scratch themselves. Their muscles waste and their legs buckle under their own weight, and they are forced to sit in their own mess. Scientists now argue that pigs are more intelligent than dogs, and on Jamie’s programme he showed pigs demonstrating behaviour that indicated they had been driven mad by these incomprehensible conditions.)

    This is what your money is paying for.

    There is also the effect on a global scale. I read the other day about how grain and crops are exported out of third world countries full of starving people to feed our animals here in the West, yet again an indication of us prioritising ourselves and our right to eat whatever we like without a thought for the impact on our planet and fellow human beings.

    Being a vegetarian is not about being a fluffy person who thinks animals are cute. It is a serious stance against cruelty and injustice. It is about having compassion for our world and the living things in it.

  15. Carole says:

    Theseoldshades – I know what you mean about the colour. After years of eating battery/barn eggs, the first time I cracked open an organic free range egg, I was bedazzled by the lovely deep colour of the yolk.

    Cooperton – it is quite painful when your eyes are opened to how the system rips everyone but the big wigs off. We just want to live our lives and yet we find ourselves complicit in the great scam. I definitely think we should try to do more local shopping. I do a bit, but not nearly enough.

  16. dadube says:

    Oh Hayles don’t tell me about pigs – I need bacon sarnies!
    Seriously, I lived in kuwait where we weren’t allowed pork coz its banned. It was two very miserable years. I could give up every other kind of meat but not pork. Sorry.
    I get your point about some of it, but I can still have compassion for the world without being vegetarian.

  17. Caroline Too says:

    buying organic and free range being too expensive,

    hmm, yes

    but an alternative is to say “I’ll eat meat less often, and go for the best in flavour and animal
    welfare”

    Carole, I believe that one reason that you might want to keep up the organic dairy products is that
    they don’t come from herds pumped full of anti-biotics.

    Of course the real problem here is that the whole system of producing food is now so skewed that we are
    faced with the conundrums of whether to choose organic food grown in Spain, Holland or US or
    local food non organically grown.

    the answer I think, seems to be in encouraging more local production, but that’s along slow business,

    still, the longest journey starts with a first step…

  18. darrin says:

    “If God had meant us to be vegetarian why did he make animals out of meat” Dara O’Brien

    On the other hand rather than going the whole hog (do you see what i did there) cutting back on meat might be a good option…kind of nearly vegetarian

    http://tinyurl.com/5j4gd5

    I’ve just been out to East Dulwich in London…and managed to by fish from a fishmonger meat from a butcher fruit and veg from a grocers…all British all locally sourced as far as possible

    But it seemed a distinctly ‘middle class’ affair…its hard to see how it is possible for a more economically disadvantaged area

    Although I did visit this project last year which was totally brilliant

    http://tinyurl.com/agtops

  19. Carole says:

    Hayles – I would buy meat which had been farmed compassionately…that is a possible. But frankly, no, I am not about to give up meat altogether. Vegetarian food is ok for a snack or starter, but it just doesn’t leave me feeling satisfied in the same way that meat does. I have tried various vegetarian meat substitutes (which defeats the object to a certain extent – don’t eat dead animals, eat something that looks/tastes like dead animals instead) but none of them quite mimic the texture that meat has.

    I think if the idea of meat reducing was promoted more, it would actually produce more results than many of the more impassioned approaches of the animal rights lobby which are so often a turn off to people who would otherwise be sympathetic. I think meat reducing would probably break the habit of meat eating. I might give that a try.

    Do fish have the same rights as other animals? I like fish, too.

  20. i’m with Hayles, i’ve been a vegetarian for 3 years now, we stayed on a farm a couple of months ago with some very happy friendly pigs, yes, they do seem at least every bit as affectionate and smart as dogs do, my 10 year old fell in love with them and has not eaten a pig product since. his choice.
    and I have to say I am super proud of him for making that choice.

  21. Carole says:

    Oops, Caroline Too – we have cross-posted…I got very distracted by things here and so didn’t see your post. I agree with your comments. :)

  22. plus since i became a vegetarian i have a way more varied diet than i used to… squash and chickpea curry = yum!!

  23. Hayles says:

    ‘I could give up every other kind of meat but not pork. Sorry.’

    The idea of not being able to give up something really scares me; absolutely NO food is nice enough that it justifies prolonged, severe, animal cruelty. Clearly you disagree.

    If you don’t want to give up pork, why not consider buying pork that is free range and allowed to live a happy life. This website talks about supporting British farmers rearing animals to higher welfare standards, and banning the horrific conditions in Europe (the charity is headed by the brilliant Joanna Lumley).

    http://www.ciwf.org.uk/

    I am not trying to make everyone vegetarians (although I admit that that would be great!), I’m just raising awareness of what your money is paying for. However I get the feeling that people already know, but just don’t care enough to give up the odd sandwich. Very sad indeed.

  24. Hayles says:

    Yes Carole, I agree that the views expressed by activists can sometimes be a put off for people that would otherwise be sympathetic.

    We do indeed need to cut down the amount of meat we eat, which is having an horrendous effect on the health of the nation, and have more respect for what we eat. Animals are thinking, feeling beings. We can’t treat them like factory parts. But that is exactly how they are treated.

  25. if anyone is interested, here’s a fantastic post from Greg Boyd about vegetarianism..

    http://gregboyd.blogspot.com/2008/02/why-im-vegetarian.html

  26. Hayles says:

    Wow Christine, great link! His others posts on the issue look really interesting too.

    And the stuff on the ‘violent God’ of the old testament, something that really upsets me when I read it. Blimey, I need to free up some reading time…

  27. Rachel says:

    This really impacts me. A few months ago I was told be a free – range chicken and get out of the box / the battery farm in a prophecy. Since doing that and stepping out of that world and its regulation and constraints the freedom I have experienced is awesome! I would encouage you all to step out and become His free range chickens, no more caged up hens anymore!

  28. becky says:

    I agree – and when possible I buy free range, fair trade and organic. I also buy much less meat than I used to as I’ve found a number of dishes where I can add meat to the mixture instead of making it the main course – I was just noting that I’m going through a horrible month where I had hardly a cent to my name and though i felt guilty as hell, I bought some ground chicken to make a rice casserole because it was the cheapest and I was that broke. Also, it is hard to find free range in my neighborhood and wish that wasn’t the case as well.

  29. Hannah says:

    re- 6 Becky – if you have a local farmers market you may be able to get fresh free range local eggs from there, they’re usually very competitively priced, and my mum reckons they last much longer than the supermarket ones. I think our local butcher sells local free range eggs, and they may well be competitively priced too…

  30. Hannah says:

    ahh, just read no 27, you may find things different in the states I guess??

  31. dadube says:

    hayles – I understand your choice but I truly feel it is unfair to judge me so badly just because I choose to eat meat. If you’d bothered to read my first post you’ll see that I don’t have much choice in the type of meat I eat, because unlike in enlightened western countries I’m in the middle east. In the UK I do spend the extra it takes to eat meat that hasn’t been farmed badly, but why do I feel I have to justify my choice to you?
    for you to say I disagree over animal cruelty – well you clearly don’t know me.
    I love asbo because people listen to eachother in a rational way, but clearly its hard for me to say I eat meat and for you to accept it……

  32. zefi says:

    Makes me hope that everybody would be poor to the extent of being able to savour meat only occasionally.

    Was it not long ago that meat was a luxury???

  33. Robb says:

    Can’t have been that much of a luxury before that or we wouldn’t have evolved the teeth and digestive system necessary to to eat it.

    Or have I crossed the streams?

    I am not trying to make everyone vegetarians

    I’m not sure I’m convinced by this assertion as you have been rather forthright in your opinions to the contrary.

    I feel like I’m supposed to say that… some of my best friends are vegetrians…

    Mother was vegetarian all my childhood. She was vegetarian until the doctor pointed out that a combination of waldenstrom macroglobulinemia, lactose intollerance and vegetarianism were killing her and that she only had a choice about one of them.

    She was and is a prosyletiser only now she will do it whilst eating animals.

  34. marcus says:

    can’t get too excited about commenting on the state of animal welfare when so many humans are suffering – makes my blood boil when I hear about animal rights activists getting violent with people..something doesn’t quite add up for me.

  35. Hayles says:

    dadube I had read your first post, but you can always not buy pork. I’m sorry that you felt I judged you, but what have I said that you actually disagree with?

    ‘for you to say I disagree over animal cruelty – well you clearly don’t know me.’

    Do you think the animals you eat have been treated nicely?

    Of course you don’t have to justify yourself to anybody, but I do think that perhaps you need to be honest with yourself. I am sincerely sorry that you felt I judged you, I don’t think the meat anyone eats, the clothes they wear or the job they do, has anything to do with the beautiful heart and soul inside someone. I have read your posts a lot and I know I don’t know you as such but I still feel that I really like you. I am sorry I sounded harsh, we all have our weaknesses when it comes to issues that we are passionate about.

    Marcus, I agree that getting violent is never the answer. However, you say that you ‘can’t get too excited about commenting on the state of animal welfare when so many humans are suffering.’ Part of the reason why there are so many humans suffering is directly because of our consumerist attitude, and our belief that we can do what we like. (The animals we eat are fed with corn and grain that has been taken from countries full of starving people. We expect to eat ridiculous amounts of meat, which is an extremely inefficient food source.) I also think that one can always find a situation that is worse than another, and have an attitude of ‘I can’t do everything so I’ll do nothing.’ Maybe we all have different issues that God has encouraged us to be passionate about, and if we all worked together, we’d have everything covered!

    Robb, yes, maybe you’re right! I did bracket my admittance of the fact I’d like it. But I totally accept the fact that whether or not you have meat in your diet is a decision for the individual. I do however strongly feel that the animals that people are eating deserve to be treated with fairness and dignity whilst they are alive. I find it difficult and worrying that people do not agree that animals deserve this respect, or that it is not an issue we should be concerned about. Suffering is suffering, full stop, and we should want to end it.

  36. Robb says:

    I don’t think I disagreed with any of that. In fact the college just rescued a load of battery hens and made them a nice free range run to live out their existance in.

    Unfortunately they can’t feed us any of the eggs as the health and safety executive wont allow anyone to feed people none lion branded eggs. They are going to be fed to the Monks. Apparantly monks don’t count as people.

    Personally I prefer to get eggs from my mothers neighbour in a variety of shapes sized and colours as he keeps them in the back garden.

    I am thinking of keeping hens and a sheep/goat at my new house in the summer. I only have room for one – a sheep or a goat. I wonder if anyone would provide me with a space to keep the other separate… or would that be too much of a biblical cliche?

  37. becky says:

    27. I make a point to buy from farmers markets when I can but right now it’s winter and it’s out of season for most of what they sell. I chose to move to an area that’s ethnically diverse (an excellent decision I don’t regret) but there aren’t the high end gourmet stores that sell free range items up there – it’s a bit difficult to find up here. But it is something I’m becoming more aware of and praying for how to do this on a budget.

    I can say what doesn’t help me is having the folks from PETA slam me as though I’m the spawn of Satan for being an omnivore. Not sure what that group is like elsewhere but here in the States, they are as militant as the pro-lifers who picket abortion clinics. Not the way to turn folks over to your cause.

    What got me wasn’t just the animal cruelty (I grew up on a farm for a few years where we raised all our own food) but tuning in to how a meat intensive diet impacts the environment. That got me to think about ways to reduce my meat consumption. I won’t give it up but I am looking into ways to have a more veggie heavy diet.

  38. becky says:

    Rob – go for the goat. Sheep dung smells to high heaven.

  39. marcus says:

    Hayles No 34 – you say that “one can always find a situation that is worse than another, and have an attitude of ‘I can’t do everything so I’ll do nothing.’ ”
    It’s not that I take that attitude – it’s just that i put human lives on a higher level than animals and make no excuses for it. Whenever I can buy free range chickens or other such produce I do – I just think that we should focus on human suffering first and foremost, including the injustice of how third world countries are taken advantage of for the benefit of those who live in industrialised countries.

  40. Laura says:

    LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  41. darrin says:

    i had mackerel on toast for my tea

  42. Carole says:

    BTW funny cartoon – made me laugh a lot. It’s another T-shirt! :lol:

  43. Hayles says:

    Marcus, I don’t think there’s anyone on this site that doesn’t value the life of a fellow human being more than an animal.

  44. Hayles says:

    (Unless of course that guy who jumped into the frozen lake to save his dog is on here… :) )

  45. Kim says:

    My dad dove into the North Sea at high tide to rescue my dog when I was small :lol: we value our dogs pretty highly

  46. Hayles says:

    Kim, I bet he was the family hero!

  47. Will says:

    I didn’t realise this is how they made batteries!

  48. jonbirch says:

    i did a meat free diet for a year… ethical reasons… nothing hit the spot though like meat does… i like meat… i feel better when i’ve eaten it. i have a local butcher and a free range farmer for a friend so i guess i’m pretty fortunate when it comes to purchasing these days.
    £45 for half an organic lamb… now that is good. lamb is not cheap.
    i’ve had excellent venison before now too… proper wild deer. it was amazing. i love pheasant and have no problems plucking and gutting, in fact i enjoy it more in a way knowing i’ve been a part of the process. i would kill to eat, definitely.

    all that said. battery farming is repulsive, as is any kind of abuse to the creation. strangely enough, an organic chicken may be twice the price in many shops, but it lasts twice as long, is twice as tasty, twice as filling and is not pumped full of water. intensive farming is disgusting in every way. as with so many of our problems i guess it’s greed that brought us to this sorry state of affairs.

    re. people being more important than animals. i agree… but… and it’s a big but… the sooner we realise this isn’t an either/or situation, the sooner we realise we have it within us to do justice in all things, the sooner we realise that our welfare is completely tied up with the rest of creation, the sooner we realise that how we run (or fail to run) our economy and do our business (farming included) has a direct effect on those in other countries who we are exploiting, the better.

    i must say… i really don’t like squash. it’s like it can’t decide what it is. is it sweet? is it savoury? is it butter? it’s way to squashy to be a nut? what is it? no… i neither understand nor enjoy squash. :-)

  49. Hayles says:

    AMEN Jon! To everything you’ve said, but particularly:

    ‘the sooner we realise this isn’t an either/or situation, the sooner we realise we have it within us to do justice in all things, the sooner we realise that our welfare is completely tied up with the rest of creation, the sooner we realise that how we run (or fail to run) our economy and do our business (farming included) has a direct effect on those in other countries who we are exploiting, the better.’

    As for the fact that you pluck and gut the pheasant you eat, respect to you brother! I’d be a total a baby! An old friend of mine was from a farming family, and she’d happily cuddle and play with lambs one minute and then send them off for slaughter the next, and really enjoy her roast dinner! I’m a bit too fluffy for this and don’t know how she did it, but at least there was an honest relationship between dinner and diner. ;)

    I don’t think anyone understands squash. Apart from God (he must get it since he made it).

  50. zefi says:

    Can’t have been that much of a luxury before that or we wouldn’t have evolved the teeth and digestive system necessary to to eat it.

    Oh, if you’re talking about long, long, long, long, long, long time ago, I have to admit that it wasn’t that much of a luxury.

    When the dinosaurs died, there’s too much meat lying around. Yum yum!

  51. Claire says:

    First, to claim my bias – I’m a vegetarian (have been so for about eleven years). A friend of mine reported a comment that has stuck with me – “there is no such thing as a guilt-free vegetarian”. I try not to get into feeling guilty about whether I am careful enough about excluding stray bits of meat from my diet, because I think there’s already a massive difference between my previously quite carnivore ways and my present consumption. But I try to remain mindful that I’m in no way perfect, especially when I’m tempted to make judgements about others. (And sometimes, I even succeed in keeping my big mouth shut! :-))

    I became a vegetarian quite suddenly – I went shopping with my sister one day, and she bought a book (The Livewire Guide to Going, Being and Staying Veggie) and I idly picked it up and started reading it. By the time I’d finished reading it, I was convinced I could no longer eat meat. I was quite a meaty eater prior to this, so it was a bit of a sudden move, but at the same time, I’ve never really missed meat for more than fleeting moments. I think it would be hard to go through life constantly feeling like you were being deprived.

    @Marcus – I completely agree that it would be unjust to give more weight to the welfare of animals than the welfare of humans, and I certainly don’t consider violence appropriate in any kind of protest. But the truth is that being a vegetarian is really not that hard! I don’t think I put any more time into shopping, cooking or eating as a vego than I would if I was still an omnivore. I don’t think being a vegetarian distracts me from supporting the causes of suffering humans (in fact, I think that acknowledging suffering in one context makes me more willing to acknowledge suffering in general). This is even aside from the suffering that happens to humans because of the meat industry. I just don’t eat meat – it doesn’t have to define me or limit what I can do with my life.

    @Jon – I’m sorry to hear that a non-meat diet wasn’t satisfying to you, and I can see how hard it would be to continue without something to “hit the spot”. I’ve known a few people whose health issues also led them back to meat. I’ve been fortunate that I’m able to eat a very varied diet and enjoy a lot of different foods, and I think that’s why I don’t miss meat very often (and possibly also why my iron etc. are always OK). If you’re ever tempted to try a non-meat diet again, it may be worth deliberately challenging yourself to eat things you’ve not tried before, particularly different sources of protein, to give yourself some more options.

    Also, re: squash – are you talking about the little yellow things or the big orange things (that Aussies call butternut pumpkins)? I grew up hating the little yellow ones because I always had them overcooked. Now I find then tolerable when cooked the slightest amount possible, e.g. quartered and thrown into a frypan for hardly any time. But my boyfriend would totally back your final statement. :-)

  52. Laura says:

    I thought sqaush was a liquid beverage. I’m so confused. :?

  53. Laura says:

    Actually, is there any other kind of beverage besides a liquid one????

    ok, I obviously need to just go to bed and get some sleep before I embarass myself any further. ;-)

  54. Claire says:

    I thought squash was a liquid beverage. I’m so confused.

    LOL!

    See, I don’t know if I’m thinking of the right thing either. As an Australian, when someone says “squash” (and when I can tell they mean the vegetable and not the liquid beverage :-)), I think of little yellow ones that you get in summer, which are apparently known as Yellow Pattypan Squash. But I know that to Americans, there are a whole bunch of things known as Squash, including the things I know as zucchini (courgette) and pumpkin. I have no idea how this relates to the UK nomenclature, hence my confusion about which hated squash was being discussed.

    is there any other kind of beverage besides a liquid one????
    That’s a good question…is frozen lemonade still a beverage? Is melted icecream a beverage, or is it still a dessert? Heh.

  55. Hayles says:

    Laura, Jon is talking about butternut squash, a winter vegetable (a pumpkin is a type of squash).

    But you’re right, squash is a drink too, totally unrelated to the vegetable! (Thank goodness…)

  56. Hayles says:

    I had a smoothie the other day that could definitely not be described as a liquid…but I would maybe say it was a beverage, since I put it in a glass! Hurrah Laura, you needn’t have put yourself to bed!

  57. zefi says:

    I don’t know about where you live in, but in Malaysia, we have creative people coming up with vege dishes that look and taste like meat! Some even, IMO, tasted better than meat!
    :D

  58. Robb says:

    Becky – Many years ago I was involved in Burgers For Jesus… ahem… er Faith in the City… or whatever it was called. Basically giving out free burgers for a week in the city centre.

    After two peaceful days of burger eating we were decended upon by animal rights activists who dressed as cows and held placards declaring “thou shalt not kill”.

    It left me with only one real question. “How crap are you guys?”

    “McDogfood has been peddled on this street for decades and you did nothing. *Burger* king is just 10 yards away. Unlucky fried kitten is just over there…. Where were you guys? Are you just fair weather activists? Don’t you have the commitment to picket a big corporation? Do you think the church is just an easy target? If you do, that takes you even lower in my estimations.

    I think I’ll go and have a burger whilst I contemplate the serious questions and issues that you guys have caused me to think about.”

    I guess this is why ‘activism’ often doesn’t work.

  59. Linus says:

    business opportunity there for manufacture of squash squash. Has a nice ring to it. Also, gonna start a campaign for viscous beverages. Who’s with me?

  60. be careful, Robb, not to put all animal rights people into the same box ass the people you just described. people often put all christians in the same box as those whacky people who like to turn up at gay parade’s and push their bible verses onto people and tell them homosexuals go to hell….

    as a christian i don’t want to be in the box with those nasty people
    as someone who is concerned about animal welfare i don’t want to be pushed into the box of what you described above either.

  61. Carole says:

    Good point, Christine, and good to be reminded of that.

    In fact I think there are a lot of similarities in the way that some very vocal animal rights supportors (not necessarily activists) and some of the more vocal ‘evangelists’ in Christian circles proselytise. If anyone is going to win me over to their particualar belief system (religious, political, whatever), they need to do it in a positive and persuasive way, I don’t need to be judged and criticised. The arguments must be so attractive to me that I can endorse the beliefs of my own volition. And even if I am not won over, I can respect them. In the past people have made me feel bad about myself and that either makes me feel bullied into accepting a particular viewpoint or it makes me want to reject it, irrespective of how sensible it is.

  62. TyTe says:

    It’s not easy being a chicken…
    It’s much harder being a consumer!

  63. Hayles says:

    I disagree, TyTe. Being a consumer is easy; being an ethical consumer is the difficult part!

  64. Robb says:

    I thought I was concerned about animal welfare. Did I not mention the rescuing of chickens and the free range eggs we aren’t allowed to eat?

    I thought I was complaining about the methods of 3 oportunist students who wanted their photo in the paper not lumping anyone in with anyone else…

    Oh well. I’ve reread it and I still don’t think I have done that.

  65. ahhhh…. sorry, i just wasn’t aware that we were talking about extreme activism so…

    sorreh mister : )

  66. Robb says:

    cool christine – neither did i

  67. Hey, the last time I saw such a mix of passion, misunderstanding, generalisations and uncomfortable jokes on this website was the last time we talked about human sexuality.

    Seriously.

    I wonder what the connection is?

  68. Hayles says:

    Steve, sex and food are two things we human beings are very passionate about!

  69. Strangely, thinking about it (post 67), I suspect it comes down to meat.

    We are meat and the animals some of us eat are both meat. And sexuality is about meat – the reproduction of it and the pleasure taken by itself in itself. Okay, so we’re complicated meat, and may have emerged into some new spiritually aware state because of that, but if the meat goes, in this life, we go.

    As for whether we are worth more than animals – well, good to hear Jesus saying we are worth more than many sparrows, but I find myself starting actively to disagree with him (and I try for that not to be the case!).

    I can agree that we are worth the same, and we all pop our clogs sometime, and even now find our lives extended or cut short by our own choices, as well as the choices of many others. Maybe that justifies our eating meat compassionately and with due regard for the loss of life that enables us to do so. But I don’t think it justifies the ‘we can do it (in the short term), therefore it’s got to be okay for us (in the long term)’ argument for themassive consumption of meat prevalent in the West.

    I’m posting as a meat-eater (and enjoyer), but I happen to think Hayles and Christine Gill are much more right than we meat-eaters usually care to admit.

  70. Hayles (68),

    Cross-posted! Yes, I agree :)

  71. zefi says:

    Steve, sex and food are two things we human beings are very passionate about!

    I’ve almost misread what you wrote as “Steve, sex and food are three things we human beings are very passionate about!

  72. Zefi (71),

    Well, I don’t like to boast.
    ;)

  73. James says:

    I am considering giving up meat for lent. I really can’t see it becoming a life style choice past that but I think it will be good to do. Mostly fueled by this and a discussion within the youth about what we were going to give up.

    Then I will be able to reflect better about when and where I eat meat, considering whether I know where that meat has come from I guess.

  74. What was the name of the recent film about factory farming? It came out in the cinema a year or so back. Not the Macdonald’s one.

  75. would we actually have pigs if we all became vegetarian? Been trying to think of another use for them (apart from looking really sweeeeet and being more intelligent than a lot of ppl)Do vegetarians eat eggs?…if not, that’s the chickens out the window too.
    I haven’t bought chicken in years…I won’t eat the tesco (2 for a fiver) and can’t afford the free range…can’t even remember what proper chicken tastes like….*sigh*

  76. One roast chicken (free-range, £3.70) =

    Sunday meal for two
    Then
    Curry for two
    Then
    Soup for four
    Then
    Stir fry for one

    = nine meals over four days.

  77. tell me where i can buy free range chicken for £3.70….pleeeeeeeeeeeease!

  78. Morrisons?

    Wye Valley range. (I hope I’m remembering this right, or I’ll look right stupid!)

    Maybe check
    here?

  79. thanks steve…..will check that out :-)

  80. beatthedrum says:

    Personally I am happy to go and and shoot, gut, pluck or skin my own food. I have done it since i was 7, I get a lot of pleasure out of it and the meat is great.

    My kids know where it comes from and my boys have been out with me shooting.

    They have plucked and skins some of my catch and think nothing of it.

    Its far cheaper and you dont get any more free ranging than wild.

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