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Tell him we have a bus seat reserved for him but I’m not sure where it’s heading!
Jon this is brilliant, and a wonderful cartoon to wake up to when the world has been made white and pure during the night!
I love the image of Dawkins being greeted at the gates of heaven with a smile.
Jon this is great as it emphasises (believe it or not) a true trinitarian understanding of salvation. So many people, including ministers, I believe get confession, repentence and absolution screwed up. The number of times I have heard prayers of absolution where the minister has said something along the lines of “if you have repented and confessed your sins they are forgiven. As if God is limited in his ability to forgive us by our willingness or unwillingness to repent or say sorry as in this cartoon. Yet God is not limited by us. We are forgiven. When Christ died on the cross we were all forgiven. If we repent and confess then we are able to receive the forgiveness God offers us. It is our ability to receive the forgiveness that is the limiting factor. Therefore Dawkins, in the cartoon, represents all of us. If any one of us comes before the gates of heaven and say we are sorry, we can receive the forgiveness God freely offers to us in Christ, the gates will open wide and we can come in.
Nice emphasis, rockingrev. I would stretch it out to heretical status and say that that invitation extends to ages beyond this one.
I love this cartoon. I also love Richard Dawkins. He has a wonderful mind, dismissive of Crustianity though he do be
I love this one. When I hear Dawkins speak or read his writings, there is something of the petulant teenager about him. I always feel he is taunting Christianity (for he seems to give us more grief than any other faith group) because he really wants to be convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that God does exist…but his intellect gets in the way. I would love him to find a faith in God because I think it might calm the restlessness in his soul…I’d rejoice in that, not to get one over on him, but just for him.
Maybe this is all just wishful thinking on my part…
great, full of grace
“I would love him to find a faith in God because I think it might calm the restlessness in his soul…I’d rejoice in that, not to get one over on him, but just for him.” I think he’d probably be hugely offended by both the implications and the sentiment though Carole. :~
Ha ha ha, this made me laugh the most out of all the cartoons on this website. Love it.
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Pat (8), let’s hope he’s not an ASBO lurker, then! He’d probably be slightly piqued by the cartoon, too…that’s OK, if he dishes it out he should be able to take it. Seriously, I don’t think the outspoken Mr Dawkins would be particularly bothered. I’m sure he has enjoyed fielding far more confrontational comments than mine which would be like water off a duck’s back.
dawkins is indeed brilliant by all accounts. i saw professor robert winston on the box last night, i really like him. he is a great friend of dawkins. he said he felt the arrogance of dawkins was calling his book ‘the god delusion’ and needing to say that people are deluded if they believe in god. i personally believe that we can be deluded about god, that our traditions and modus operandi can keep these delusions alive. rocking rev points out very eloquently one such delusion above and burst it’s bubble beautifully.
prof winston, interestingly, also went on to say that there appears to be a faith gene and it may be that the need for faith is programmed in to us, so it is not good to dismiss it so readily.
all interesting stuff.
i think many religious institutions, not just christian ones, the control they like to exercise, their checkered histories etc. would lead many thinking people to question the validity of said institution’s god.
fortunately, my god will not be institutionalised. that which brought the universe in to being and forms us to be a part of it will go in no box. i see my god at work in the bible, the koran, in the world, in the universe, in people… everywhere. christianity could never own the god i believe in.
jesus personifies the god i choose. no one and nothing else does it like that. no one else has ever shown me that kind of commitment and self sacrifice. period. christianity, likewise, will never own jesus. the spirit goes where it wills. there is no containing god.
was that a sermon?
Actually, it’s Dawkins science that irritates me… built upon premises that can not be proved, and then modelled through computer algorithms that are possibly not correct…
and then he accuses Christians of illogical beliefs!
Mind you I really am the pits as far as he’s concerned
not only a Christian
but a postmodern academic
I really have no redeeming attribute!
…by the way, on another matter,
have you noticed how the snow brings people out, and we all seem to slow down, stop to chat
maybe even find that we’re all quite nice (even Dawkins?)
but in a couple of days, we’ll all be back in our cars, whizzing past each other…
sigh
what about robert winston caroline? do you like him?
Wow Jon, that was a great message – will you come up here and preach it please!? I agree; beautifully expressed.
Will he starts debating the existence of God in heaven, again?
I don’t have a view on Winston other than he’s one of the few men on whom a moustache looks ok
I think it is possible that something I wrote in response to cartoon 632 (the one with the German scientist) may have sparked off this cartoon, in which case it is only fair for me to elaborate.
My previous post was: “I saw the Dawkins ad on the tube yesterday, with an extremely silly and irrelevant quote from Douglas Adams about fairies. I spent the rest of the tube journey thinking of a sensible way of expressing the point which the ad is trying to make. It begins ‘The writer of this ad believes there is no God…’”
“Non credo esse deum” — the beginning of an atheist creed. The Latin is a reaction to the German in the previous cartoon — I don’t know any German, but I do know some Latin. It means “I do not believe there to be a God”. But since I don’t know who “I” is, I will stick with using the third person. So here is my alternative version of the Dawkins ad.
*******
The writer of this ad (hereafter referred to as “the writer”) believes there is no God. [The qualifier "probably" is not needed because this is stating a belief, not an attempt to state a fact]. More importantly in this context, the writer also does not believe there is any life other than that which we are currently experiencing. [This is quite a macho belief, because it will never be proved right, whereas if somebody believes in life after death they will never be proved wrong. But this is not the reason the writer holds this belief; the reason for holding a belief is because you believe it is true!]
[Aside: the writer also does not believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden, Santa Claus, or any of the other supernatural beliefs that people tend to grow out of as they grow up, but this is irrelevant because this ad is supposed to be about belief in God, and there are huge numbers of thoughtful adults who believe in God. Associating belief in God with belief in fairies etc is running the risk of making the writer look stupid for not being able to tell the difference].
On this basis, the writer believes that everyone should try to make the best of this current life, and do all they can to ensure that all people have the opportunity to live life to the full. [This belief is fully compatible with Christianity. Jesus said something about everyone having life to the full]. This will include, for instance, protecting human rights and the environment. [Of course this is not the preserve of atheists. Many theists also live on this basis*].
In particular, the writer believes that people in general should not worry, because worrying doesn’t achieve anything. [Jesus said something about this as well].
*******
Will this do as an atheist creed (as well as being a less embarrassing advertisement)?
There is one more point I would want to add, but it doesn’t directly come from the ad. I would like to think that the writer realises that respecting other people’s beliefs is an important part of ensuring all people have the opportunity to live to the full.
* I would like to think that the rewriter of this ad is one such.
And another thing: a joke.
An atheist dies and… oh let’s be specific.
Richard Dawkins dies and is surprised to find himself at the gates of heaven. He says to St Peter “I didn’t expect to end up here”. Peter tells him “We’ve got all sorts here”, and starts to show him around. There are indeed all sorts — Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Christians of every type etc etc — and “don’t knows”.
And then they come to a massive wall. Dawkins starts to say, “What’s behind that?” but Peter shushes him and whispers, “The exclusivists* are behind that wall. They think there’s nobody else here”.
[*For "exclusivists" substitute any other group that you have grounds for criticising for exclusivist behaviour. I think the first time I heard this joke the word "evangelicals" was used.]
Jon (#12) — in response to your comment that there may be a “faith gene”, I once heard a minister say in a sermon that atheism tends to be a hobby for intellectuals, because people are naturally inclined to believe in God.
In all honesty, I think he should have known better than to say that. I wouldn’t expect anyone to take kindly to having their religion described as a “hobby”; that includes atheists.
you’re right rebecca. being condescending towards other of a different faith does not forward anyone’s cause. that’s dawkin’s mistake and the mistake of many christians too.
it’s hard, doing cartoons ‘n’all, to remember that sometimes.
i wonder if dawkins ever has a niggling doubt. i do and i reckon most people do.
actually, i did the cartoon as a response to seeing prof robert winston on the box. i’m always struck by his huge knowledge, thoughtfulness and humility.
Nicely done.
H. Allen Orr observed that Dawkins acts like an Anglican clergyman dropped him on his head when he was an infant. If you read between the lines of what the atheists are saying, their major beef is how we live out Christ’s teachings.
I suspect a lot of us (me included) will be surprised with how many folks made it into heaven.
I’ve no doubt that (if there’s a heaven) Richard Dawkins will be there.
I commend to you his website.
Oh, and I’ve just heard on the radio that the lyricist of Sinitta’s song ‘So Macho’ is writing the response to the ‘Probably no God’ bus ads…
Life is an ASBO cartoon!
My friend who is an atheist absolutely cannot stand ‘christianity’ as an institution, and says he would never want to be associated with it in any way whatsoever.
He is one of the nicest people I know, and I look forward to having a cool drink with him on a summer’s day in heaven!
Ill be glad to see anyone in heaven but that does include everyone doesn’t it and I mean all those who we might think shouldn’t be there. Actually I think we have a cheek to exclusively decide who does and who does not, only God can decide that.
I welcome the bus ad’s I think they are great but what would really be fantastic is ASBO’s on the side of the bus or on the tubes.
rebeccas joke was quite cool, make me chuckle as I escaped from the ‘evangelicals’ a long time ago at least I hope I did.
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I always have always heard it as “the [inster denomination here]‘s…”
It’s an uncomfortable thing to note that nobody in the bible
talks more often of judgement and seperation from God as much as
Jesus!
Having said that,
I’m very glad that Jesus, who is all loving, all knowing,
completely just, and longing to ‘save’ to use that old time
word, is making the judgements not me!
So, I’ll work on the basis of all the people I know going, and
somehow also being nice to be with in the new Jerusalem (some might
even have that vague hope of me!)
jon @ 12- great post!
check in @ fb sometime soon would ya
brilliant!
Brilliant, Jon, simply brilliant!
Rebecca (19): Like the Atheists Creed.
Jon (12): Yup, but a very good one
#3 “If any one of us comes before the gates of heaven and say we are sorry, we can receive the forgiveness God freely offers to us in Christ, the gates will open wide and we can come in.”
I think it is too late then. When we die either our names are in the Book of Life or they aren’t, eh?
I like this pic. It’s tone reminded me of the Methodist Churches response to the first load of bus ads……http://methodist.org.uk/index.cfm?fuseaction=opentogod.newsDetail&newsid=295
@rebecca
Are you referring to “I have come so that they may have life, and have it more abundantly,” or “The one who finds his life will lose it, and the one who loses his life because of me will find it?”
it might be fun designing bus adds in heaven, with Dawkins and pals
as i don’t pay too much attention, i could be miss quoting, but i thought i heard Dawkins explaining that atheism was a peaceful way, and that there were no major wars or murders committed in the name of atheism
- we all get occasional delusions, it’s the way we are made
Did Dawkins forget about Russia under Stalin? I’m sure that I read somewhere that more people died under this regime than any other.
wars in the name of religion argument always irritates me
Yes, I’m aware that relition is invoked often in a war situation
but, more often than not, that is to hide the true, less noble
reason for the war:
a) trade
b) power
c) land
d) personal vanity
e) wanting to kick butt, ‘cos someone’s just hurt us and we want
to show that we’re just as tough as John Wayne ever was (not
thinking of any war in particular there!)
rockingrev (3): I’ve never heard the idea that you can be “sorry” at the gates of heaven and still get in? Do you mean literally at the point of entry / denial, or were you being metaphorical in allusion to a point in this lifetime?
Also I am intrigued that Dawkins is turning up alone. I have never been able to understand whether heaven is already open and you get admitted / refused at the moment of death, or whether it’s something which happens for everyone at the same time at the end of this world?
And (sorry to go on), I like the thought that a couple of people made (above) that they would want to see their atheist mates with them in heaven too. That’s an interesting thought. Would it be heaven if some of your best mates weren’t there?
yay! I love it!
The thing i wonder about heaven is do you still have free will in heaven? Cos if you did, surely the ability to sin would still be there? Can you sin in heaven?
It’s not a question to found faith on, just one i wonder about now and then!
The gates of Heaven – what a fascinating concept…I tend to think not so much pearly gates as check-in at the airport. How awful would that be? I get really irritated if the next desk is clearing people quicker and I can’t just nip under the rope barrier. My feet ache and I can’t wait to go through the potential indignities of passport control so that I can at least sit down at the ‘other side’. Not a good analogy (I hope!)
Would it be heaven if some of your best mates weren’t there?
Too right, JF. I am very fond of my atheist mates and would be gutted if I couldn’t see them from time to time for all eternity…atheist relatives, too. But, and I am conscious that I am responding in a pessimistic human way here, what if God is the parent who knows what is best for us…but what God thinks is good for me and what I think is good for me diverge somewhat? What is Heaven?
Kayte – we have cross-posted but you raise a question which overlaps one I have – will God have to dispense with my will to get me to co-operate? Will I be rewired so my will is entirely in sync with His/Hers? Is that a bit like brainwashing? Hmmm…
If you fancy a laugh i found a site today where you can make your own pictures of bus ads…..link on my blog and one of the best i’ve found so far
LOL, brilliant.
Love it Jon. Thanks for posting it up.
I have real compassion for the likes of Dawkins.
Oh and as Im a calvinist i dont necessarily agree with rockingrev… well at least in parts
http://www.beatthedrum.wordpress.com
I think I may have read somewhere that there has to be an opportunity after death to choose whether to be with God or not to account for people who’ve never heard of God or Jesus, and people who’ve only met horrid Christians – so people who haven’t encountered God in this life get to meet God before choosing. And at that point with all the love I’d have thought it might be somewhat difficult to turn God down. What do you think?
I also think I’ve been taught that and that there’s something in Revelation to support the idea – if you take any of that to be literally true. It makes sense to me and I hope its true.
The idea that Jesus would die to save everyone – and then leave the really important part of having everyone become aware of that to us – seems risky to me, as I am sometimes rubbish at that – so surely there’s a plan B as Sophie suggests?
Interesting comment Beatthedrum. One of my little areas of interest is the difference between the writings of John Calvin and what later became known as Calvinism. It is a bit like the difference between what Jesus said and what later became known as Christianity. It makes for interesting study. I did a master’s thesis on Calvin’s theology of the Lord’s Supper and it is far removed from what most modern Presbyterians think we should believe, particularly when it comes to the presence of Christ in the sacrament.
@3 I’m with you rockingrev that I don’t think God stands there with his back to us and arms folded until we say sorry. No, forgiveness has already taken place and God stands arm outstretched asking, “Come on, let’s be friends?”
But, as an minister, I say those words many times and you are probably hearing things along the lines of ““if you have repented and confessed your sins they are forgiven” because much liturgy is taken directly from the Bible:
1 John 1:9
“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”
And on the absolution front, as a priest, it’s a wonderful thing to assure people – with authority – that they are forgiven.
Here’s a confession. We Christians make a big deal out of eternal life (as in ‘living forever’ and not ‘life in all it’s fullness’) but here’s a thing…
To be honest, I’m not bothered about living forever. I’ve had a great innings. I love life and living now. If I die tomorrow and cease to exist, it’ll be a bummer (as there’s a few more things I’d like to experience), but I’ve had a good time already. Life has been a precious gift and I’m content with what I’ve had.
Is that a bad thing?
So, Tyte, tell me, what is life in all its fullness – because whilst some of my life is great, actually quite a lot of it is pretty lacklustre. That must sound incredibly ungrateful and selfish of me as a privileged westerner but it is an honest response. I think that living forever sounds pretty tiring, but at the same time, having lost both parents, the idea of this being it and my never ‘knowing’ them (whatever form knowing would take) scares the crap out of me. If I thought that were it I think I would give up now. Sorry, I think I am getting into ‘does not compute’ mode now…
I like the way the gates are the gates of the ‘new heaven & earth’ rather than just ‘heaven’. The idea of ‘going to heaven when you die’ is much too simplistic and not really biblical. The kingdom of heaven is here and is continually coming. It comes in its fullness when Jesus returns, I think. It is then that some of us will enter eternal glory but others will not… I think.
I have a question. What if life really sucks? You know… really sucks!! Erm – Zimbabwe, holocauste sucks………… It really sucks!!
What is the point?
Are we involved in Jesus mission or are we escapologists? Is there actually a dual truth here? [nearly made a mistake here - read on and I'll correct] Jesus Kingdom is coming and we see glimpses of it now and we are being brought into it by jesus? or is there a coming eschaton who will sort out this nonsense and deal with us all and put us in our place?
I’m personally more drawn to the eastern orthodox view of Jesus taking us out into the mission……
[PS sorry if this means nowt - bin tut pub]
I didn’t correct!! Oooops!!
The Fathers kingdom – decided upon by the son…..
If life is really hard, for example, you can’t blame people for buying into the escapology option. I daresay life in its fullness now means little when your family are ill and dying and you struggle to find a meal. Indeed, I struggle to put anything but vague meaning on this phrase in my luxurious position. What, indeed, is the point in the ‘here and now’?
Trouble is, faith has so many clauses and I haven’t read the smallprint so I don’t know what I’ve signed up to. I have a faith in a loving God which is based probably more on gut instinct and bits of scripture which make my heart leap for reasons unknown, certain experiences which seem to inwardly affirm it all…but a lot of the finer detail is lost on me. I’m probably a bit thick to be having this conversation..
When’s the last chance to say sorry? before death or at the
gates of heaven?
the problem with that question is that it starts from a human
concept of time. God is beyond time, (S)He’s infinte, so I supect
that it’s a non issue. Just as he saw to the heart of the murdering,
pilandering and violent king David, so (S)He’ll see to the
heart of us all and bring to wholeness that which can be made
whole.
when I was going through the mill, just after I failed in my marriage.
I used to notice what I called ‘spots of love’, those moments
when, despite all the struggle and pain, something of God’s love broke
through in someone’s actions or words. I wonder if that is what
we experience of the coming yet already-here kingdom of God?
Caroline Too (60)- I for one have no doubt that what you say is right.
PS, Caroline 2 – I call those gracenotes.
i too can confirm that caroline too. i must remember to call them ‘gracenotes’… that’s a lovely word carole (spellchecker hates it, but spellchecker has no soul or sense of poetry!!!)
I usually think of them as ‘moments of grace’ – but ‘gracenotes’ is much more poetic and pleasing. Thanks
Hey, Jon…I used some of your lovely illustrations on this conservative, Evangelical Christian forum called DailyCross and they nearly banned me. D: I used the ones where that person says “I have an opinion” and then the other Christians gather around him and say “That’s not allowed! …unless it’s the same as ours”. Because of that, they keep saying to me, “I’m sick and tired of your signature pics” or “You were very rude with your sig pics”. WTF?! It’s not like my pics had nudity or swearing or blood on them. O____O
Thanks a lot, Jon. Your pictures can ’cause uproars on conservative forums.
Rockingrev – Sorry for not reading all the post in between, but I don’t think this has been mentioned!
You say ‘God is not limited by us’. I fear maybe he is… What I mean to say is, God can use us to do incredible things by through faith in Him. Is it not concievable that actually our lack of faith CAN limit God? Wasn’t Jesus unable to perform miracles where there was not enough faith?
We are not to believe we can reach an entire nation for Christ. We are, I think, supposed to believe that God can reach and entire nation and he chooses to use the faithful to do that.
Plus, of course, I have a worry arguements like this come from wishful thinking and a declining church rather than theology! It’s a pretty big gamble if your theology turns out to be wrong… especially if its not your eternity.
*YWP turns off his evangelical mouth now
No.66 ‘I have a worry arguements like this come from wishful thinking’
Wishful thinking that God is too loving, merciful and powerful to let not one of His children, who He made in His image, be snatched from His hand? Wishful thinking that He really WILL search for that last lost sheep, as He has promised? Wishful thinking that He will greet back the child who left Him to seek other pleasures, not reluctantly but with loving open arms and a huge party?
Maybe this ‘wishful thinking’, as you name it, is actually hope and faith in God’s endless mercy, for He so loved the WORLD, not just those with faith.
‘That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.’ (1 Tim.4:10, TNIV)
The Savior of all people. Now that’s good news!
wow, hard to swallow, that our lack of faith might limit God’s ability to reach those around us
- is this just another way of looking at my frustrations with the ‘self-focused’ nature of the church, and it’s inability to open up and welcome anyone?
or even our lack of sensitivity, (having found myself badly bruised by the ministers comments in the summer, I find I’m now really struggling to turn up, others I know just couldn’t take anymore
and yet, God still reaches me, sometimes through my little pink goodnews bible, – if less and less through the minister)
one thing I do think, is that our culture holds up idols and arguments against God, and it can feel impossible to challenge them
so lets support christians who put the faith out there, inviting us to reflect on the possibility that God might want to show us his love
Hi Youthworkerpete. I find the opinion that God’s Almightiness might be limited by our faith a bit worrying. It kind of echoes with comments which have been reported such as, “Your cancer isn’t cured because your faith isn’t strong enough.” Sorry if that is not what you meant but it just reminded me of that.
Uhoh- you know when you wished you hadn’t started something ;p
I’ve tried rewriting this post several times. I don’t think I can clarify what I want to say any more without simply repeating my post above.
I would like to clarify however that I do not believe that those who suffer cancer are not healed because of a lack of faith! I’m not really sure, if you reread the comment, it was at all mentioned – although I appologise if others thought it was implied.
Also – ‘wishful thinking’ maybe was a bad phrase to use – again I appologise – however sometimes Christians of a certain theological persuasion can come accross as if they are happy with their relationship with God, and make up explanaitions that excuse them from the great commission. ‘We all get a second chance in heaven’ being one of them. I’m not saying everyone who believes that is trying to avoid the complexities, disappointments, and frustrations with evalngelism – but simply that some people who use that phrase do so with little theological integrity.
I hope you can all sleep a little easier now
I’m with Tyte on this, if I’ve understood him correctly. I believe it’s all about THIS life. I’m going to have to go check my concordance, but I get a feeling whenever Jesus talks about the Kingdom of Heaven, it sounds like something that can be here and now. I find the idea of having to “do” something, in order to “make it to the other side” a little bit derivative/redolent of pagan stuff, where they bury you with things to help you get through to the next world. If God is the internal ideal of perfect existence, then surely living according to Jesus’s teachings means that you can achieve that Heaven in THIS life (Jesus being the embodiment and example of how to live THIS life). I really worry about people who bugger up THIS life because they are too busy trying to book the NEXT one. That, to bring the Dawkins reference back in, is all those bus ads were trying to say. Don’t worry about some external Father Christmas figure who may or may not be pulling all the levers and wires. Instead, weigh up your role in this world and your relationships with your neighbours and everything else around you… and get on with living this life… to the full. Enjoy it!
i slept fine anyway youthworkerpete.
i know what you mean jf. i guess jesus talk of inheritance is much more helpful to those who need the escape because of terrible and unimaginably hard circumstances.
amanda… oh dear… you’re not getting me in to trouble are you?
Oh dear, we’re getting ourselves in to troubled water here aren’t we (#66, 88 & 69)
I’m not sure that there’s an easy answer…
can I spoil God’s love in me? It seems to me that I can… Paul seems to suggest that we can
quench or anger the Holy Spirit and there are times from my experience that I’m just sure that
I got in the way of His love.
Did that stop God’s love flowing for those in that situation? I don’t think so.
Here again, I think that the problem is that we think in linear time, and I don’t think that God
is affected by that..
By and large, when faced with a problem that I don’t understand fully (often!) I find the best
option is to work on what is useful, rather than what is true (I just find truth such an elusive
substance)
so
I will act as though I am a channel of God’s grace, and as a channel I can obstruct that grace)
Consequently, I will do everything I can to minimise the way that my life obstructs His
love.
but
I will also trust that even when I get things wrong, God will somehow slide His grace through…
best of both worlds? wishful thinking?
or just a vague attempt to handle the paradox of an infinite God in a finite world?
and it helps me work on my faithfulness to Him, whilst not letting me wallow in destructive
guilt over my ineptitude
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I’ve seen what might be described as an anti-Dawkins bus poster. It has a quote from the Bible which says something along the lines of “The fool has said, ‘There is no God’.”
Where does that leave someone who says, “There’s *probably* no God”?