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First Comment – Finally been in India has paid off
Like this reminds me a lot of a scene out of the Sandman comics after the devil has quit Hell. It also reminds me a bit of “Old Harry’s Game” a well
WM
Satan wears a pink speedo?
Great one Jon! I’ve been blogging a lot of stuff about Revelation recently, so I’ve put a copy of your cartoon with a link through to your site on my blog.
Oh – and does Satan have a woodie while we’re at it? I noticed Satan doesn’t have man boobs – actually he’s boobless – is that because he’s one giant book?
My favourite cartoon Jon, simple truth.
Love his cloven feet!!! I grew up being taught all kindsa weird about this. You’re right – we ascribe far too much power to him. Better eat up that ice cream now tho
It always amuses me that people assume that Rock is all about Satan. I always thought that the best thing he could do was convince people that he didn’t exist. That way everything is OK isn’t it, there are no evils anymore, get on with it an have a good time.
I mean, who can’t listen to something like this without hearing a tale of how empty life is?
…. and don’t get me started on Ozzy Osbourne. Master of reality could be filed under CCM!
666 happens to be my patient number at the dental surgury.
It is remarkable that he’s using factor 666. Surely he should use factor 0 — which would mean that he would burn immediately. (Explanatory note: the factor on sunscreen multiplies the amount of time you can stay in the sun without burning).
So did he walk backwards out of the sea?
Love this one Jon
I get really ticked off by people who blame everything including their sin on the Devil.
Yes he is real, but he is not God and can only be in one place at any given time. And really is he going to waste time on the likes of us when he can tempt the TV evangelists in the states to embezzle, adulterate and fornicate, I think not.
Its not the Devil its YOU! But them I believe all people are BORN evil and only through Jesus can that change, and then only partially until his return or our death!
http://www.beatthedrum.wordpress.com
hi beatthedrum… do you really believe people are born evil? propensity to do evil, yeh… but born evil? what do you mean by that?
oh marcus, i was wondering who’d spot that. actually, he came back on the other side of the deck chair. so nyah nyah nyah!
Jon – it depends on whether you believe Augustine or Pelagius. Do people have original sin? Augustine found it suprisingly liberating – “oh happy fall”. He saw it as the point where grace was able to come into the world. Pelagius didn’t.
Can you tell I went to a lecture on original sin on monday?
I never got the Satan thing. The web is full of people trying to explain who he is, why he fell, when he fell, whether he is “beautiful” etc. But the simple explanation to me is that he’s a metaphor for the “bad” in me. The same way God is a metaphor for the perfect person I could be if it wasn’t for all the crap I need to sort out.
As your cartoon suggests, Jon, evil and good are done by people of their own volition, not ordained by bearded / horned beings floating/rushing around in an unseen spiritual dimension, with us as their pawns in some gargantuan battle for universal supremacy.
So it’s up to me to do God’s work and not the Devil’s. Right?
What I mean by that is that everyone of us comes out of the womb, evil jon, not just a propensity to do evil but with a will to do evil.
If evil is too strong a word then selfish may be substituted.
Rom 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, ”
The important word there is ALL.
I think this can be seen in babies, as a father of three all three of my kids would ‘lie’ to get attention, food etc even before they could talk or walk etc. It was their natural reaction to do this, nobody taught them.
http://www.beatthedrum.wordpress.com
“Fight valiantly as a disciple of Christ,
against sin,
the world
and the devil,
and remain faithful to Christ to the end of your life.”
Brilliant prayer from our baptism liturgies…
The ancients saw three enemies of life – enemies coming from:
1. Inside us
2. Around us
3. Outside us
I think that’s just how it feels to me.
Whahaha!! Oooh that pink swimsuit really does it for me!!
Thanks Jon!
667: neighbour of the beast…
668 neighbour of the beast .. plus 1
wow, steady! our falleness is about our failure to see God’s glory in ourselves and in the world.
since tiny tots are at the mercy of us aged hulks, a little experimental lying is probably a very opportunistic survival mechanism – considering the odds stacked against minors, – every meal is organised by us
kids also are filled with creativity, a sense of fun, empathy and a passionate sense of justice
because God created us in His image
Thanks for clearing up the old footsteps in the wrong direction Jon, I thought for one minute that someone might have carried him like the famous footprints in the sand story!!!!
Anyway they say the devil is in the detail
just the one 99p flake!, could step up the greed factor, and poor mite’s just got the one paw.
do approve the stripy deck chair, good taste
this looks like an interesting variation on the current thompson adverts
Am sorry, don’t buy the born evil stuff for 1 second. God did not create us evil, the minute we are born we are not evil. This makes me so mad…..
is that you evil side coming out Kim?
everything god makes is good. period. i would not want to be the child of someone who thought i was born evil. that’s a big guilt trip to heap on to the next generation. nope, children are born good. the bible leads me to believe that… whatever the annoying little brats get up to.
Sorry Marcus, I did actually blow a gasket for a minute there, oops! normally try to disagree a little more patiently but that one really ‘gets my goat’ (what is that phrase about anyway?!)
Thanks Jon, you said what I needed to but couldn’t.
Well, Kim, the symbol of a goat is often used as a satanic symbol so maybe the saying ‘gets my goat’ is another way of saying ‘gets the devil in me’?!?
I’ve got (was given) a library card and a bank account with 666 in them.
Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
I don’t find it too hard to accept that we’re all born as part of the fallen world we live in and, as such, need redeeming.
Calling little babies evil, on the other hand, is difficult. I think we tend to anthropomorphise little babies more than is wise.
I am constantly amazed at people’s willingness, nay eagerness, to burden themselves with guilt.
We are all born with the ability to do good and the propensity to fall short.
i agree, jf. little babies ain’t evil and people do find a home in guilt very readily.
lewis, there are also loads of psalms on killing enemies and all sorts. that’s what i love about the psalms, they’re so human. i won’t be framing my theology around them any time soon though.
I suppose it depends what you mean by evil. We are all born into Adam’s sin, and so we’re ultimately guilty from conception, from our fathers. I understand what you mean about evil though. You can’t call a baby evil. Condemned by sin perhaps, if not its own, but not really evil. As JF said, ‘We are all born with the ability to do good and the propensity to fall short.’ I suppose you can define evil by a will to fall short.
Here’s an interesting philosophical question though: if you could take a few babies, and let them sorta raise themselves in their own community (so without interaction with sinners, ie us), would they sin or not? What would happen? I would expect them to.
Once, we had a visiting missionary and his wife staying with us. Our boys were less than 1 and 4 at the time and really playing up that night. The missionary’s wife just smiled sweetly and said that anyone who had a baby could believe in original sin and anyone with a toddler could believe in the total depravity of humanity!
haha! ‘nice’ house guest, rockingrev!
… or is that 
?
i would expect them to as well, lewis. that’s a far cry from being born ‘evil’ though.
“We are all born into Adam’s sin, and so we’re ultimately guilty from conception, from our fathers.”
That’s a very emphatic (and rather sweeping
) statement Lewis, but what does it actually mean?
yes pat… i wasn’t agreeing with the adam’s sin/guilt bit.
JF – personally, the idea of original sin, as i understand it*, is quite liberating and reduces the guilt i feel. It gives me a reason for the somewhat disturbing behaviour i sometimes detect in myself (and other people =]). This is a great relief, and i find it much healthier and more positive to accept this reality in my nature than to make futile attempts to deny there are things i should feel guilty about.
Its liberating to understand that i will sometimes fail. It allows me to accept that i need grace.
I hope it is not solely “up to me to do God’s work and not the Devil’s” because on my own, “I decide to do good, but I don’t really do it; I decide not to do bad, but then I do it anyway. My decisions, such as they are, don’t result in actions. Something has gone wrong deep within me and gets the better of me every time… What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?”
.
*original sin is a horrible phrase. I tend to talk in terms of a beautiful thing that’s been broken. A strong thing that’s been wounded. The most helpful image for me is of a “crack baby”, the term used to describe an infant that has inherited its mother’s cocaine addiction. This obviously really screws the child up, and would, in time, if left untreated, result in all kinds of destructive behaviour. Fortunately, treatment can be given, and the child can be freed from the addiction.
Ok maybe ‘Evil’ is too strong a word.
But if we are all sinners from birth isnt it the same thing?
We shy away from the use of the word evil, i find that hard.
Actually realising you are ‘evil’ does not fill you with Guilt, at least not in my case, just makes me loveGod more for loving an evil sinner like me!
Reminds me of a semi-philosophical proof I once made on the evil nature of humankind.
I have it written down somewhere, if anyone would like it, I can paste it in.
Will be a bit long though, if I have to get the details of the arguments in.
1 Corinthains 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
and
Romans 5:12-21
Were what I meant about being born into sin.
PLEASE forgive me for the FAAAAAAR too long comment (but it’s up to yourself whether or not you read it, isn’t it?
). But I just got this email from an Australian friend and couldn’t resist sharing it with y’all.. I reckon it’s quite brilliant..
God vs. Science
A science professor begins his school year with a lecture to the students, ‘Let me explain the problem science has with religion.’ The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.
‘You’re a Christian, aren’t you, son?’
‘Yes sir,’ the student says.
‘So you believe in God?’
‘Absolutely.’
‘Is God good?’
‘Sure! God’s good.’
‘Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?’
‘Yes.’
‘Are you good or evil?’
‘The Bible says I’m evil.’
The professor grins knowingly. ‘Aha! The Bible!’ He considers for a moment. ‘Here’s one for you. Let’s say there’s a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?’
‘Yes sir, I would.’
‘So you’re good…!’
‘I wouldn’t say that.’
‘But why not say that? You’d help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn’t.’
The student does not answer, so the professor continues. ‘He doesn’t, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?’
The student remains silent.
‘No, you can’t, can you?’ the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.
‘Let’s start again, young fella. Is God good?’
‘Er…yes,’ the student says.
‘Is Satan good?’
The student doesn’t hesitate on this one. ‘No.’
‘Then where does Satan come from?’
The student falters. ‘From God’
‘That’s right. God made Satan, didn’t he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?’
‘Yes, sir.’
‘Evil’s everywhere, isn’t it? And God did make everything, correct?’
‘Yes.’
‘So who created evil?’ The professor continued, ‘If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil.’
Again, the student has no answer. ‘Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?’
The student squirms on his feet. ‘Yes.’
‘So who created them?’
The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. ‘Who created them?’ There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. ‘Tell me,’ he continues onto another student. ‘Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?’
The student’s voice betrays him and cracks. ‘Yes, professor, I do.’
The old man stops pacing. ‘Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?’
‘No sir. I’ve never seen Him.’
‘Then tell us if you’ve ever heard your Jesus?’
‘No, sir, I have not.’
‘Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?’
‘No, sir, I’m afraid I haven’t.’
‘Yet you still believe in him?’
‘Yes.’
‘According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn’t exist. What do you say to that, son?’
‘Nothing,’ the student replies. ‘I only have my faith.’
‘Yes, faith,’ the professor repeats. ‘And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.’
At the back of the room another student stands quietly for a moment before asking a question of His own. ‘Professor, is there such thing as heat?’
‘Yes,’ the professor replies. ‘There’s heat.’
‘And is there such a thing as cold?’
‘Yes, son, there’s cold too.’
‘No sir, there isn’t.’
The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. ‘You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don’t have anything called ‘cold’. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can’t go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees.’
‘Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.’
Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.
‘What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?’
‘Yes,’ the professor replies without hesitation. ‘What is night if it isn’t darkness?’
‘You’re wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it’s called darkness, isn’t it? That’s the meaning we use to define the word.’
‘In reality, darkness isn’t. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn’t you?’
The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. ‘So what point are you making, young man?’
‘Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.’
The professor’s face cannot hide his surprise this time. ‘Flawed? Can you explain how?’
‘You are working on the premise of duality,’ the student explains. ‘You argue that there is life and then there’s death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can’t even explain a thought.’
‘It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.’
‘Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?’
‘If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do.’
‘Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?’
The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.
‘Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?’
The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.
‘To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean.’
The student looks around the room. ‘Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor’s brain?’ The class breaks out into laughter.
‘Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor’s brain, felt the professor’s brain, touched or smelt the professor’s brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.’
‘So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?’
Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.
Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. ‘I guess you’ll have to take them on faith.’
‘Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,’ the student continues. ‘Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?’
Now uncertain, the professor responds, ‘Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man’s inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.’
To this the student replied, ‘Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. ‘Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God’s love present in his heart. It’s like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.’
The professor sat down and smiled…