Aren’t most of us in the margins? most people i know seem to think they are an ousider in one sense or another!
and what do you think makes the difference between making a home in the margins and being marginalised?
if we are content with the margins are we missing out on the main story?
And sometimes we get to at home in the margins… we get comfy and stop challangeing the non margins… then other people make their home on the margins of the margins…… is this ok????
where is the margin in the body of christ?
Margins can be very useful
Comment by Welshdisastergirl — April 7, 2009 @ 1:07 pm
wow sorry guys…. minor brain explosion there !!!
Comment by Welshdisastergirl — April 7, 2009 @ 1:09 pm
I live on the margins – my struggle was wondering why I keep wanting to join in with the cool popular crowd when I had so many more interesting encounters on the edge. The more I get to know those who were once deemed popular, I realize how boring they truly are.
Hmm, I’m not so sure life is as nice in the margins as it looks in the picture. I think its fne if you have chosen to live there, but many people are not there by choice.
Sorry to be heavy – have been to visit an agrophobic mum living in abject squalor with a baby today and several other folk in very grim situations. The sun wasn’t shining and they weren’t smiling.
I have always liked being different, to put myself of the margin. But often have felt hurt, alienated etc when others have put me there.
Maybe it’s whether we have control over being put in the margins that affects whether it is a good place to be.
To make a difference in the world we need to be in the middle of it, our light will shine in more directions of the world if we are in the middle rather then standing on the edge shinning in on one part.
I agree with the comments that point out that the house does look very nice. I think it looks very middle class. Spare a thought for those in the margins don’t have a home at all.
I’m not in the margins (well, not to the surface glance anyway)
I have a mainstream job
I have a nice house
I trot along to an established, episcipal church
I have a hobby (sailing) that we actually do rather well at in Britain
and just occasionally, I get a little uncomfortable in the mainstream,
cos, actually I believe and teach some seriously radical stuff.
and every now and again, I wonder why am I getting away with this?
But what are the margins? If the definition of margins is where the marginalized are, then you will find the marginalized where there are the persecutors and the prejudiced – and to be honest, these places are not the places one would consider to the margins at all.
As we prepare for Easter, I was reminded today that in the days before his arrest, Jesus was not in the margins. He went daily to the temple and taught, discussed, challenged, and confronted.
it’s so interesting, reading your comments and looking at my reaction to the pic.
I loath the way our society pushes people to the margines. we deny the difficulties we cause each other, and the pain exclusion brings
I wonder if things might be different for ‘an agrophobic mum living in abject squalor with a baby’ in a different culture, one where faith haden’t been pushed to the margins. or where the faithful couldn’t deny the pain of the marginalised?
and yet perhaps, taking ourselves to the margin, takes us to a vantage point, and frees us from the dominant norms?
I just got back from a candlelight service for the victims of the Rwanda Genocide and I’d like to rethink my previous comment – according to US standards, I am on the margin. According to good chunks of the world, fuggetaboutit. Seeing some of the victims light candles of hope set a chill up my spine like crazy. Becky
well Jon you never cease to amaze me with your creativity.
The margins is where I did most of my work in school simply because it didnt belong anywhere else I have come to realise that the “margin” as you put it is my home, I called it something else but you put it perfectly, thanks.
This weekend was the last straw for me and I have finally realised that either church is not my home or it just isnt the place for me. I have been watching the parable of the sea and sobbing my heart out ever since, can I come and camp in your margins?
Long, long time since I’ve been to Canterbury but what I remember from the cathedral was the wonderful blue of some of the stained glass – a delight to the eye and a balm for the soul. Anyway – travel well, and may your journeyings bring you to a generous, gracious, god-filled place.
i always thought you were with me in the margins anyway dennis. there’s tons of room there and loads of creativity going on… it’s amazing!
as you may have gathered, the margins i’m talking about in the cartoon are very much the ones to be found down the side of any typical school exercise book. it is about me expressing me in the place where i have the space to do it. as i say on the ‘about me’ page… the margins are where i’ve always found my creativity.
i’m not talking about people who are marginalised specifically, although that comes in to it.
I think it is really funny that, working in schools, I actually hate marking the children’s books – not that I don’t want to offer feedback, I do. It’s just that I am loathe to tarnish their work space. I was in one class and a young girl with Asperger’s Syndrome came to me to clarify something for her. I went to write in her book and she said to me, very loudly and sternly, “DON’T WRITE IN MY BOOK! I HATE PEOPLE WRITING IN MY BOOK!” That was one of the more amusing responses I’ve had, but if a child owns his/her creations, they have a right not to have someone else’s daubs all over them. So I try to restrict myself to the margins, offering little bits of encouragement here and there. So, too, in church life. I do not have much to offer at centre stage but from my little niche I hope I offer what encouragement I can to keep the players motivated.
if there are issues whith the main ‘textbook’ shouldn’t that be challanged?
are we ‘being the change we want to see’ if there is a level of satisfaction with being in the margins…. sorry jon, but i find that point of veiw, and kind of acceptance a little worrying… i probrably don’t fully understand, please explain?
Comment by Welshdisastergirl — April 8, 2009 @ 2:53 pm
ha ha – I did most of my doodling on the main page, front cover, margins, desk and any other surface that pen or pencil could engrave. In my end of year report, my Year 9 mathematics teacher wrote, “Gavin is very good at art.” He later asked me if everything was alright at home – what a sweetie! One of my favourite creative experiences was to Tippex out the heads of the characters in my French text book and draw in new heads – very amusing.
Ive had extra reflection on this and I am often criticised for living/working/being in the margins because “normality” happens on the main page. Im not normal so I live and work and breath in the margins. Sometimes I step out into the main page and get into so much trouble for rocking the boat, then I retreat to the margins again.
Dennis, I think you need to ask whether the boat actually needs rocking. I like mavericks…they make life interesting. But mavericks scare the hell out of those who cling to their comfort zone for grim death. Major discoveries or inventions come about because someone has gone beyond the ‘norms’ and challenged the status quo. You say you are ‘often criticised’. Take a good hard look at your situation (as I’m sure you already have) and establish if your critics are many or whether it is one or two individuals that your presence causes discomfort to. You may find it is the latter, in which case you would give them just what they want by opting out. Also, I know I tend to place more weight on negative criticism than encouragements. This damages my self-esteem and it also devalues the opinions of those who love and/or respect me. This is very wrong and I am trying hard to redress the balance. Just check yourself to make sure you don’t do the same as me.
Does this make me marginalised?
You may find your views are sometimes marginalised but the contribution you make to your community is anything but peripheral. Perhaps we ought to be thinking of what Pat broached on earlier – the margins as a liminal space.
yes, pat… margins as a liminal space.
when at a football match i find i am interested in the crowd, what happens off the ball. when playing 5 a side, it is people’s behaviour (including my own) that i find the most interesting thing about the game. even more so when we played 11 a side, it was the new people and how our guys behaved towards each other and the new people etc that i found enthralling. the game was the main page, yet the peripherals for me was where the real action was.
at school, it was either literally the margins or it was the extracurricular stuff that i committed to… i really have not changed at all.
even asbo is me doing my thing in the margin i think. i’m delighted that people are glad to join me. it is not about me trying to set myself apart, actually that doesn’t interest me at all either… it is simply me being me i think.
39. Depends on “why” you’re rocking the boat. I wrestle with this all the time as a religious satirist – am I engaging in idol smashing so the glimpses of God can shine through or am I just being a smart ass (sometimes the answer is the latter and then I have to rethink why I’m doing what I’m doing). That’s why we need accountability groups around us to keep our eye on the prize.
Deconstruction of the church for the sake of dropping theological TNT on unsuspecting folks is simply cruel – for all the talk of “doing church,” “contextualizing your faith,” etc., what’s there in terms of a living breathing community that emerges and gives people hope?
i guess my work choice and the fact i do it from home on my own feels a bit marginal. in many ways it’s good, but i do have to get over the red line and see people doing things like shopping and drinking coffee to keep me human.
i, like becky, have to watch the ‘being a smart arse’ thing with asbo. i’d rather do good than harm. i’m never completely sure which i’ve done until i put the cartoon out there.
yep dennis, i agree with carole and pat… margin as a liminal space. you, i think, are a central character, although perhaps your creative thinking is from the margins… which is great.
Margins (in the sense that you have been using it here Jon) are extremely open places in all sorts of ways – and thus, I think, have huge potential for creativity of many different kinds.
Look after yourself, Dennis. Hope the walk is good, in more ways than one. I sense you need time away to think a few things through without distractions. I’ll mention you in despatches to the Boss!
46. Jon – hence the value of community. For instance, one of my favorite expressions for someone who I feel has sold out his soul for the bucks (and you know the type I mean) was to say he “drank the Christian Kool-Aid”). After hearing from a few folks that unless people actually died from following this person, that was going too far. Hence the phrase “religious rock star” was born, a moniker tell me shows they get it. Emergent Church ™ came about when I was searching for a word to describe this ethos whereby a communal spirit became commercialized without reducing it to name calling because every time I’d critique an organization by name, I’d get dragged down into the blog battles where no one wins. Given others have picked up on it, that tells me this was the way to go here.
A forum like this is a good and safe place to play in the margins as when you cross over, this crowd doesn’t hammer you but gently places you back on the path.
Re: jon in 46 “i’m never completely sure which i’ve done until i put the cartoon out there.”
To some extent, all you have done is put a tool out there – we’re the ones who then pick it up and employ it to either build or to bash.
hey, cheers, forrest… that relieves a bit o’ pressure. i guess i’ll always feel kinda responsible though, and that’s not such a bad thing. it’s not a bad thing to check and double check ones motives. cheers bro.
Beautiful
Comment by Hayles — April 7, 2009 @ 11:20 am
Where Jesus chose to live!
http://www.beatthedrum.wordpress.com
Comment by beatthedrum — April 7, 2009 @ 11:48 am
And you look very well there
Comment by Pat — April 7, 2009 @ 12:36 pm
Aren’t most of us in the margins? most people i know seem to think they are an ousider in one sense or another!
and what do you think makes the difference between making a home in the margins and being marginalised?
if we are content with the margins are we missing out on the main story?
And sometimes we get to at home in the margins… we get comfy and stop challangeing the non margins… then other people make their home on the margins of the margins…… is this ok????
where is the margin in the body of christ?
Margins can be very useful
Comment by Welshdisastergirl — April 7, 2009 @ 1:07 pm
wow sorry guys…. minor brain explosion there !!!
Comment by Welshdisastergirl — April 7, 2009 @ 1:09 pm
I live on the margins – my struggle was wondering why I keep wanting to join in with the cool popular crowd when I had so many more interesting encounters on the edge. The more I get to know those who were once deemed popular, I realize how boring they truly are.
Comment by beckyG — April 7, 2009 @ 2:27 pm
Hmm, I’m not so sure life is as nice in the margins as it looks in the picture. I think its fne if you have chosen to live there, but many people are not there by choice.
Sorry to be heavy – have been to visit an agrophobic mum living in abject squalor with a baby today and several other folk in very grim situations. The sun wasn’t shining and they weren’t smiling.
Comment by Kim — April 7, 2009 @ 3:01 pm
[...] Pondering :: 21 :: The Margins 04.07.2009 This might be my favorite picture from The Ongoing Adventures of ASBO Jesus. [...]
Pingback by Pondering :: 21 :: The Margins « The Third Mile — April 7, 2009 @ 3:19 pm
I have always liked being different, to put myself of the margin. But often have felt hurt, alienated etc when others have put me there.
Maybe it’s whether we have control over being put in the margins that affects whether it is a good place to be.
To make a difference in the world we need to be in the middle of it, our light will shine in more directions of the world if we are in the middle rather then standing on the edge shinning in on one part.
Comment by James — April 7, 2009 @ 3:31 pm
That’s a pretty nice margin to live in – most aren’t
Comment by marcus — April 7, 2009 @ 4:41 pm
Love it, Jon! Very you.
Comment by Carole — April 7, 2009 @ 5:45 pm
I agree with the comments that point out that the house does look very nice. I think it looks very middle class. Spare a thought for those in the margins don’t have a home at all.
Comment by David Derbyshire — April 7, 2009 @ 5:59 pm
I’m not in the margins (well, not to the surface glance anyway)
I have a mainstream job
I have a nice house
I trot along to an established, episcipal church
I have a hobby (sailing) that we actually do rather well at in Britain
and just occasionally, I get a little uncomfortable in the mainstream,
cos, actually I believe and teach some seriously radical stuff.
and every now and again, I wonder why am I getting away with this?
Comment by Caroline Too — April 7, 2009 @ 6:29 pm
“The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.”
from Walden by Henry David Thoreau
Comment by miriworm — April 7, 2009 @ 6:33 pm
But what are the margins? If the definition of margins is where the marginalized are, then you will find the marginalized where there are the persecutors and the prejudiced – and to be honest, these places are not the places one would consider to the margins at all.
As we prepare for Easter, I was reminded today that in the days before his arrest, Jesus was not in the margins. He went daily to the temple and taught, discussed, challenged, and confronted.
Comment by Zee — April 7, 2009 @ 7:16 pm
LOVE IT!
Comment by Heidi Renee — April 7, 2009 @ 7:22 pm
Nice neighborhood… a little quirky, but nice.
Comment by Glenn — April 7, 2009 @ 7:46 pm
it’s so interesting, reading your comments and looking at my reaction to the pic.
I loath the way our society pushes people to the margines. we deny the difficulties we cause each other, and the pain exclusion brings
I wonder if things might be different for ‘an agrophobic mum living in abject squalor with a baby’ in a different culture, one where faith haden’t been pushed to the margins. or where the faithful couldn’t deny the pain of the marginalised?
and yet perhaps, taking ourselves to the margin, takes us to a vantage point, and frees us from the dominant norms?
Comment by subo — April 7, 2009 @ 9:39 pm
I can remember you saying this to me in the bar at greenbelt!! It stuck in my mind then!
I live in the margins and it looks like that. However – I’m big and ugly and kick my way to the forefront despite that…….
Comment by Robb — April 7, 2009 @ 11:20 pm
Nice one jon!
Comment by Laura — April 8, 2009 @ 12:06 am
One of the marks that has been identified about the ‘new monastic’ movement is that it involves a move to the margins.
there is a sense that that is where Christians ought to be, with those who have no choice…
Comment by Caroline Too — April 8, 2009 @ 12:21 am
“if you’re not living on the edge then you are taking up too much room.
– no fear”
Comment by Robb — April 8, 2009 @ 12:39 am
I just got back from a candlelight service for the victims of the Rwanda Genocide and I’d like to rethink my previous comment – according to US standards, I am on the margin. According to good chunks of the world, fuggetaboutit. Seeing some of the victims light candles of hope set a chill up my spine like crazy. Becky
Comment by beckyG — April 8, 2009 @ 2:44 am
well Jon you never cease to amaze me with your creativity.
The margins is where I did most of my work in school simply because it didnt belong anywhere else I have come to realise that the “margin” as you put it is my home, I called it something else but you put it perfectly, thanks.
This weekend was the last straw for me and I have finally realised that either church is not my home or it just isnt the place for me. I have been watching the parable of the sea and sobbing my heart out ever since, can I come and camp in your margins?
Comment by dennis — April 8, 2009 @ 6:46 am
hi Dennis, that sounds a painful place to be
and yet God calls us to come and be in Him, knowing here we will find a wonderful place to be
Comment by subo — April 8, 2009 @ 8:22 am
welshdisastergirl @4: Some excellent questions – really got me thinking. Thanks
dennis
Don’t lose heart. Hope you’re able to find a good place to be ‘you’ in this Easter.
Comment by Pat — April 8, 2009 @ 8:44 am
thanks subo!
and pat Ill try, im going on a pilgrimage to canterbury over the weekend and the decision will be when I get there, church or pub.
Comment by dennis — April 8, 2009 @ 9:13 am
Are the two mutually exclusive?
Long, long time since I’ve been to Canterbury but what I remember from the cathedral was the wonderful blue of some of the stained glass – a delight to the eye and a balm for the soul. Anyway – travel well, and may your journeyings bring you to a generous, gracious, god-filled place.
Comment by Pat — April 8, 2009 @ 9:23 am
wow thanks
Comment by dennis — April 8, 2009 @ 9:41 am
i always thought you were with me in the margins anyway dennis. there’s tons of room there and loads of creativity going on… it’s amazing!
as you may have gathered, the margins i’m talking about in the cartoon are very much the ones to be found down the side of any typical school exercise book. it is about me expressing me in the place where i have the space to do it. as i say on the ‘about me’ page… the margins are where i’ve always found my creativity.
i’m not talking about people who are marginalised specifically, although that comes in to it.
Comment by jonbirch — April 8, 2009 @ 10:07 am
Margins as a liminal place then Jon? That’s a rich vein to explore
Comment by Pat — April 8, 2009 @ 10:25 am
I think it is really funny that, working in schools, I actually hate marking the children’s books – not that I don’t want to offer feedback, I do. It’s just that I am loathe to tarnish their work space. I was in one class and a young girl with Asperger’s Syndrome came to me to clarify something for her. I went to write in her book and she said to me, very loudly and sternly, “DON’T WRITE IN MY BOOK! I HATE PEOPLE WRITING IN MY BOOK!” That was one of the more amusing responses I’ve had, but if a child owns his/her creations, they have a right not to have someone else’s daubs all over them. So I try to restrict myself to the margins, offering little bits of encouragement here and there. So, too, in church life. I do not have much to offer at centre stage but from my little niche I hope I offer what encouragement I can to keep the players motivated.
Comment by Carole — April 8, 2009 @ 12:09 pm
like that Carole!
Comment by dennis — April 8, 2009 @ 2:27 pm
but WHY do you find creativity in the margins?
if there are issues whith the main ‘textbook’ shouldn’t that be challanged?
are we ‘being the change we want to see’ if there is a level of satisfaction with being in the margins…. sorry jon, but i find that point of veiw, and kind of acceptance a little worrying… i probrably don’t fully understand, please explain?
Comment by Welshdisastergirl — April 8, 2009 @ 2:53 pm
ha ha – I did most of my doodling on the main page, front cover, margins, desk and any other surface that pen or pencil could engrave. In my end of year report, my Year 9 mathematics teacher wrote, “Gavin is very good at art.” He later asked me if everything was alright at home – what a sweetie! One of my favourite creative experiences was to Tippex out the heads of the characters in my French text book and draw in new heads – very amusing.
Comment by Gavz — April 8, 2009 @ 3:47 pm
I think which margin one is considering and/or speaking of needs to be defined: there seem to be lots of margins in this world.
Funny though, how many living center-page feel only marginal fulfillment. One does wonder . . .
Comment by Forrest — April 8, 2009 @ 7:06 pm
30. Thanks for the clarification – in that case, I am always in the margins – it’s a much more fun place to play.
Comment by beckyG — April 8, 2009 @ 9:12 pm
Ive had extra reflection on this and I am often criticised for living/working/being in the margins because “normality” happens on the main page. Im not normal so I live and work and breath in the margins. Sometimes I step out into the main page and get into so much trouble for rocking the boat, then I retreat to the margins again.
Does this make me marginalised?
Comment by dennis — April 9, 2009 @ 7:13 am
Dennis, I think you need to ask whether the boat actually needs rocking. I like mavericks…they make life interesting. But mavericks scare the hell out of those who cling to their comfort zone for grim death. Major discoveries or inventions come about because someone has gone beyond the ‘norms’ and challenged the status quo. You say you are ‘often criticised’. Take a good hard look at your situation (as I’m sure you already have) and establish if your critics are many or whether it is one or two individuals that your presence causes discomfort to. You may find it is the latter, in which case you would give them just what they want by opting out. Also, I know I tend to place more weight on negative criticism than encouragements. This damages my self-esteem and it also devalues the opinions of those who love and/or respect me. This is very wrong and I am trying hard to redress the balance. Just check yourself to make sure you don’t do the same as me.
Does this make me marginalised?
You may find your views are sometimes marginalised but the contribution you make to your community is anything but peripheral. Perhaps we ought to be thinking of what Pat broached on earlier – the margins as a liminal space.
Comment by Carole — April 9, 2009 @ 7:53 am
yes, pat… margins as a liminal space.
when at a football match i find i am interested in the crowd, what happens off the ball. when playing 5 a side, it is people’s behaviour (including my own) that i find the most interesting thing about the game. even more so when we played 11 a side, it was the new people and how our guys behaved towards each other and the new people etc that i found enthralling. the game was the main page, yet the peripherals for me was where the real action was.
at school, it was either literally the margins or it was the extracurricular stuff that i committed to… i really have not changed at all.
even asbo is me doing my thing in the margin i think. i’m delighted that people are glad to join me. it is not about me trying to set myself apart, actually that doesn’t interest me at all either… it is simply me being me i think.
Comment by jonbirch — April 9, 2009 @ 8:28 am
39. Depends on “why” you’re rocking the boat. I wrestle with this all the time as a religious satirist – am I engaging in idol smashing so the glimpses of God can shine through or am I just being a smart ass (sometimes the answer is the latter and then I have to rethink why I’m doing what I’m doing). That’s why we need accountability groups around us to keep our eye on the prize.
Deconstruction of the church for the sake of dropping theological TNT on unsuspecting folks is simply cruel – for all the talk of “doing church,” “contextualizing your faith,” etc., what’s there in terms of a living breathing community that emerges and gives people hope?
Comment by beckyG — April 9, 2009 @ 2:54 pm
Well you’ve all had me thinking.
I guess I have taken all of the stuff I do in the margin and put it slap bang in the middle of the page.
For some reason I get away with it. People let me. I somehow have permission.
Comment by Robb — April 9, 2009 @ 3:38 pm
robb… i guess you could say church is the margin these days.
Comment by jonbirch — April 9, 2009 @ 3:50 pm
that was meant more as a question than a blanket statement.
Comment by jonbirch — April 9, 2009 @ 3:51 pm
I guess you could. Never thought of it like that. I don’t feel very marginal when I am playing guitar in the pub.
Comment by Robb — April 9, 2009 @ 4:02 pm
i guess my work choice and the fact i do it from home on my own feels a bit marginal. in many ways it’s good, but i do have to get over the red line and see people doing things like shopping and drinking coffee to keep me human.
i, like becky, have to watch the ‘being a smart arse’ thing with asbo. i’d rather do good than harm. i’m never completely sure which i’ve done until i put the cartoon out there.
yep dennis, i agree with carole and pat… margin as a liminal space. you, i think, are a central character, although perhaps your creative thinking is from the margins… which is great.
Comment by jonbirch — April 9, 2009 @ 4:42 pm
Margins (in the sense that you have been using it here Jon) are extremely open places in all sorts of ways – and thus, I think, have huge potential for creativity of many different kinds.
Comment by Pat — April 9, 2009 @ 5:18 pm
Carole, you are very wise. Im still thinking Pats stuff through, Ive got all weekend to think while Im trudging through the north downs.
Comment by dennis — April 9, 2009 @ 6:12 pm
Look after yourself, Dennis. Hope the walk is good, in more ways than one. I sense you need time away to think a few things through without distractions. I’ll mention you in despatches to the Boss!
Comment by Carole — April 9, 2009 @ 7:45 pm
46. Jon – hence the value of community. For instance, one of my favorite expressions for someone who I feel has sold out his soul for the bucks (and you know the type I mean) was to say he “drank the Christian Kool-Aid”). After hearing from a few folks that unless people actually died from following this person, that was going too far. Hence the phrase “religious rock star” was born, a moniker tell me shows they get it. Emergent Church ™ came about when I was searching for a word to describe this ethos whereby a communal spirit became commercialized without reducing it to name calling because every time I’d critique an organization by name, I’d get dragged down into the blog battles where no one wins. Given others have picked up on it, that tells me this was the way to go here.
A forum like this is a good and safe place to play in the margins as when you cross over, this crowd doesn’t hammer you but gently places you back on the path.
Comment by beckyG — April 9, 2009 @ 8:25 pm
Re: jon in 46 “i’m never completely sure which i’ve done until i put the cartoon out there.”
To some extent, all you have done is put a tool out there – we’re the ones who then pick it up and employ it to either build or to bash.
Comment by Forrest — April 9, 2009 @ 10:10 pm
hey, cheers, forrest… that relieves a bit o’ pressure.
i guess i’ll always feel kinda responsible though, and that’s not such a bad thing. it’s not a bad thing to check and double check ones motives. cheers bro. 
Comment by jonbirch — April 9, 2009 @ 10:50 pm