yes… i’m sure god has been victim to language, interpretation and cultural understanding. i’m also sure god has had many a word put in his mouth over the millenia. i often wonder whether the god i believe in is at all the same as the one others do. the god that i often hear being touted is not a god i like very much at all.
What if God isn’t what you think God should be? Or put another way, what if God is ‘not a god i like very much at all’?
How does that mean you/we would/should react?
Just a hypothetical question
I think the Christian life involves getting to grips with God as “I AM”. We so love to make him in our own image. I get uncomfortable with statements beginning “I like to think of God as….” because they’re nonsense. I could say “I like to think of myself as having the looks, youth and money of a supermodel” but it wouldn’t change the reality of me one bit! (sadly, lol)
I think as we grow in our faith we realise that when we pray we’re not lasso-ing God to come and serve our will but the appropriate image is more like us as a little boat throwing a rope round a bollard/capstan/cleat/whatever you call those things on a big pier and pulling ourselves against the current to be alongside God’s will.
“the appropriate image is more like us as a little boat throwing a rope round a bollard/capstan/cleat/whatever you call those things on a big pier and pulling ourselves against the current to be alongside God’s will.” nice image annedroid. i agree. do you think though that even the god of history written about in the bible is treated in the same way… a god sometimes shaped to match the needs of the people?
9. Carole – I was taking Jon’s image at it’s most literal level but it got me thinking how we manipulate God in some ways that I could imagine would make God cringe.
111. In the US, the don’t give you a colonoscopy unless you have a family history of colo-rectal cancer (I don’t) until you hit 50. So I have a few years but the “show me your cheeks and smile” camera day will be upon me before I know it. There we go – TMI (too much information).
Ha ha to beckyg and jon – Ive all kinds of stuff up my backside (all medical I assure you) And believe me it makes you say words you would wouldnt even dream of, maybe thats why we hear the kind of crap all said in Gods name.
Isn’t this what makes the life of faith so hard because sometimes God does say things through people which we might quite easily dismiss as someone manipulating God.
14. I’ve often said that while I keep my distance from the street preachers (they look more like they’re liquored up than filled with the holy spirit), I don’t dismiss them totally. Every so often a word comes out of one of theses guys that I needed to hear.
15. The real problem here is when the person speaking has a vibe that’s provocative, cool, sexy, and so forth – we so much want to be around this persona that we will sit and believe whatever BS they’re spouting because it sounds oh so holy. We forget this could easily be Wormwood in disguise. Been there, done that, hate watching others get suckered in.
In response to Marcus (#14), what does it mean to say that God says things through people? I’m sure that God does say things through people, but not generally in a completely straightforward way.
I saw a rather dubious book once, which was intended to provide adults with answers to the awkward questions which children ask (I think the book was called “Will my rabbit go to heaven?”); one of the questions was “How do I tell whether the voices in my head come from God or the devil?” The answer given was “Are they telling you to do good or bad things?” That’s not a valid answer, because the question of what is good or bad isn’t clear-cut. But more importantly, if somebody is hearing voices in their head, shouldn’t they be tested for schizophrenia? I’m sure I can remember reading somewhere that George W Bush claimed to have heard voices in his head telling him to attack Iraq…
This is a very difficult subject, and I’m feeling pretty much the same as Jon when he said:
‘I often wonder whether the god i believe in is at all the same as the one others do. the god that i often hear being touted is not a god i like very much at all.’
I said to my mum on the phone the other day that I used feel like I understood what ‘trying to be like Jesus’ meant, but now I feel a bit confused about it. There seems to be so many different views on the character of God, and quite often they differ from my own. Where does that leave me? Can I trust my own thoughts about God? Or am I making God into who I want Him to be rather than seeing Him for who He is?
I find it incredibly difficult when people say ‘God is saying…’
How are they so confident? I think there are only a couple of occassions in my life as christian where I’ve felt that God has said something to me, and even then they were gentle nudges.
I think we are often too quick to presume that we know what God thinks about a situation and how He is acting in it. In my opinion, the emphasis needs to shift towards living out what we do know is right, which is listening and acting lovingly towards others. I’m sure that God is quite capable of speaking for Himself should He deem it necessary!
i think we should be careful about dismissing people who use the ‘God told me’ line too often. yes, i agree God can tell me directly [20] but then why shouldn’t he use a prophet, hey isn’t that a more familiar biblical image? and yes i agree we manipulate god’s image, but then god’s image is so huge and diverse that any representation is in some way manipulative. example, i’m trying to do a project with people who have a very stern image of god, so i’m stressing the God of celebration. it’s not that their image is wrong, or mine right, but that all our images are but the tip of the iceberg, wholly incomplete!
It’s easy to distrust others’ views of God as manipulative or self-serving, but Hayles’ questions have been with me a lot lately: “Can I trust my own thoughts about God? Or am I making God into who I want Him to be rather than seeing Him for who He is?” But if they get it wrong and I get it wrong where does that leave all this? Does God say anything? Do anything?
In the town I work there is a very enterprising guy who has done a lot of really good things, particularly in the area of team ministry. However it is always his way or the highway. If you challenge an idea it has always come from God and he ends up expressing doubts in your salvation. He has, inevitably, rubbed some folk up the wrong way. I therefore get very nervouis about those who seem to claim a direct line from God.
In response to Rebecca (@19) – you are right God seldom speaks through people in straightforward ways and when He does we are even more suspicious and that’s part of the problem. I was not wanting to prescribe any certain way that God speaks through people it was more general – as I believe God speaks through people in many and varied ways.
oh, wow, your in Brissol, and I’m just workin’ till I doze. life’s not fair. someone needs to do an ASBO festival.
as to hearing the voice of God, i do very much believe God speaks to us, holds us, leads us, responds when we put our trust in Him. – except when someone says ‘God told me …’, I end up thinking ‘No No No.’ (the lack of grace and humility’s a dead give away)
Jon – as a writer, I don’t go there. Instead, I write down what’s in my head (which is weird enough some days). I then have an at least one (preferably more) people I trust read my ramblings to help me tune out what’s my BS so I can “try” to turn more into God. Sometimes I test drive the material by posting it on a blog to see if the feedback indicates I’m daft or not. Then my editor tweaks with it.
I do feel that being a writer is my calling – it’s what feeds my soul and I pray everyone can find that thing that feeds them. (That should not be confused with the writing life trying to hustle for $ in this economy stinks.)
Subo [28], what you said makes me think that maybe God does reach out to communicate with us, but that we must hold on to that transaction delicately, with tenderness, humility, and doubt. Maybe then it won’t get too tainted with ourselves.
And your words also remind me of something a friend said recently: that whenever someone says that they have the RIGHT Christian doctrine, they automatically give themselves away that they don’t have it.
Jon, 29. sometimes I take a view that God wants to relate to us, he gives us various skills, and enjoys watching what we do with them. I think He’s engaging with us in conversation, not dictating what we say,
so I think He’s surprised and delighted with your cartoons, egging you on to try new stuff, and holding you firmly in His love so you can make cartoons from a point of having some experience of God
Greetings to one and all, in that mighty name…the name which is above ever name, also the only name which has power to actually transform a life. That most wonderful name: “JESUS”. There’s no other name given unto the human race with transforming power to save to the uttermost.
I, myself, am…first…and foremost, a most devout follower of our Lord, and Savior, Jesus the Christ.
Couldn’t I have just as easily have said…I’m a Christian? I could have true enough. Also I’ll say: back during the days of the apostles…saying you were a Christian, would have been saying it all. Too, back within that day and time, would have been saying enough, to have brought much tribulations and possible death your way, as well.
This would have also been true for the first couple Century’s and somewhere over into the third Century, after Jesus’ crucifixion.
Which somewhere within that time frame a government came into being, one that was willing to step up, and go to bat for Christian’s.
What I’m saying is: this government, was not only for the Christians, but also had vowed to be their protectors.
Now having a protector: Just what would this mean to the Christian’s?
For you to visualize what this would mean to the Christian’s…using your imagination and seeing a woman, she, being pregnant. Of course, both here and her husband are counting the months…when this grand occasion will happen.
Even so, she taking some kind of medicine for an ache or pain somewhere else within her body, has removed those aches and pains. What she doesn’t know though, taking this none prescription drug has so conditioned her body, that she’ll never again know what it will be like to have a labor pain.
Which would mean…when the nine months is up…both her and her husband will wait and wait for the baby to come forth. They could wait too long…or if they’re wise…go in for medical advise right away.
When this Government took over the protecting of the church…it also removed the hopes of the Church producing, or bringing to spiritual birth, such men as Apostle Paul, John the Baptist, Peter, James and John, and so forth.
It did not, by no means, limit God’s power to bring such men into being. The only thing that it did do, was: it took this glorious experience, and blessing from Church, which would mean: God would then send forth true men into his harvest fields, to both prepare and make ready a harvest of soldiers of the cross. Men who would neither bend nor bow, to the will of man. Men, as was Daniel of whom was through into the lion’s dean, also like the three Hebrew Children…Shadrack, Meshack, and abedmego…who were thrown into the furnace which was heated up seven times that, of it’s normal heating range.
I was reading on one of the blogs: this woman was complaining of going through a lot of persecution within this one supposedly Christian society type Bible training school.
I was telling her: It’s not the easiest thing in the world to do, but we’re to do it anyway…that is rejoice in tribulations, for as the Bible says: tribulations worketh patients and Patients maketh not ashamed. To some up what it’s saying it’s only part of the maturing material that the Lord, uses to get us prepared to stand before him one of these days and hear Him say: “Well done my good and faithful servant, You’ve been faithful over a few things, now I’ll make you ruler over many things. Enter ye into the blessings of the Lord.”
In closing: I’m an ordained minister and fulltime writer. I’ll also leave a link to my latest published book.
This woman told me that God was telling her that I needed to be plugged into a socket. How very rude. She knew nothing about me and at the time I was on beta blockers for stress so the last thing I needed was to be plugged into a socket! Probably she noticed I wasn’t joining in the naff choruses in a sufficiently ecstatic manner.
However I did have a ‘word of knowledge’ from someone that was amazing and very encouraging and there was no way she could have known of its significance to me as it had nothing to do with anything I’d said to her. I’m quite a cynical person, so I don’t believe these things readily.
It’s all in the interpretation, eh? Wonderful thing, language…
Comment by Carole — June 7, 2009 @ 7:01 pm
Ahhhh. Isn’t this the goal of so many teachings. Start with a man made idea the make the bible fit into that concept.
Comment by Mike — June 7, 2009 @ 8:36 pm
yes… i’m sure god has been victim to language, interpretation and cultural understanding. i’m also sure god has had many a word put in his mouth over the millenia. i often wonder whether the god i believe in is at all the same as the one others do. the god that i often hear being touted is not a god i like very much at all.
Comment by jonbirch — June 7, 2009 @ 8:37 pm
but even the bible fits god god into the views of it’s writers at times, doesn’t it?
Comment by jonbirch — June 7, 2009 @ 8:44 pm
What if God isn’t what you think God should be? Or put another way, what if God is ‘not a god i like very much at all’?
How does that mean you/we would/should react?
Just a hypothetical question
Comment by Lewis — June 7, 2009 @ 9:07 pm
what, you mean like this?
Comment by linus — June 7, 2009 @ 9:13 pm
Good. Very good.
I think the Christian life involves getting to grips with God as “I AM”. We so love to make him in our own image. I get uncomfortable with statements beginning “I like to think of God as….” because they’re nonsense. I could say “I like to think of myself as having the looks, youth and money of a supermodel” but it wouldn’t change the reality of me one bit! (sadly, lol)
I think as we grow in our faith we realise that when we pray we’re not lasso-ing God to come and serve our will but the appropriate image is more like us as a little boat throwing a rope round a bollard/capstan/cleat/whatever you call those things on a big pier and pulling ourselves against the current to be alongside God’s will.
Comment by AnneDroid — June 7, 2009 @ 9:24 pm
Wonder how God feels about having us put our hands up his arse all the time?
:)
Comment by beckyG — June 7, 2009 @ 10:35 pm
Beckyg (8)
I’m not sure whether that is a very disturbing or an incredibly funny image…help, I’m confused! 
Comment by Carole — June 7, 2009 @ 11:11 pm
“the appropriate image is more like us as a little boat throwing a rope round a bollard/capstan/cleat/whatever you call those things on a big pier and pulling ourselves against the current to be alongside God’s will.” nice image annedroid. i agree.
do you think though that even the god of history written about in the bible is treated in the same way… a god sometimes shaped to match the needs of the people?
Comment by jonbirch — June 7, 2009 @ 11:14 pm
beckyg… having had the doctor to it to me once, i can honestly say that it’s not nice!
Comment by jonbirch — June 7, 2009 @ 11:25 pm
9. Carole – I was taking Jon’s image at it’s most literal level but it got me thinking how we manipulate God in some ways that I could imagine would make God cringe.
111. In the US, the don’t give you a colonoscopy unless you have a family history of colo-rectal cancer (I don’t) until you hit 50. So I have a few years but the “show me your cheeks and smile” camera day will be upon me before I know it. There we go – TMI (too much information).
Comment by beckyG — June 8, 2009 @ 5:43 am
Ha ha to beckyg and jon – Ive all kinds of stuff up my backside (all medical I assure you) And believe me it makes you say words you would wouldnt even dream of, maybe thats why we hear the kind of crap all said in Gods name.
Comment by dennis — June 8, 2009 @ 6:21 am
Isn’t this what makes the life of faith so hard because sometimes God does say things through people which we might quite easily dismiss as someone manipulating God.
Comment by marcus — June 8, 2009 @ 6:50 am
And some times people say things that they say come from God, but really come from them (or there image of God), to manipulate us!
Comment by Miriworm — June 8, 2009 @ 7:23 am
14. I’ve often said that while I keep my distance from the street preachers (they look more like they’re liquored up than filled with the holy spirit), I don’t dismiss them totally. Every so often a word comes out of one of theses guys that I needed to hear.
15. The real problem here is when the person speaking has a vibe that’s provocative, cool, sexy, and so forth – we so much want to be around this persona that we will sit and believe whatever BS they’re spouting because it sounds oh so holy. We forget this could easily be Wormwood in disguise. Been there, done that, hate watching others get suckered in.
Comment by beckyG — June 8, 2009 @ 8:28 am
[...] mal ein geniales Cartoon von ASBO Jesus, bei dem einem das Lachen im Hals stecken bleibt, weil einem die verstörende Wahrheit dahinter [...]
Pingback by windhauch » My puppet — June 8, 2009 @ 8:42 am
is it that little lego Gandalf?
Comment by subo — June 8, 2009 @ 11:33 am
In response to Marcus (#14), what does it mean to say that God says things through people? I’m sure that God does say things through people, but not generally in a completely straightforward way.
I saw a rather dubious book once, which was intended to provide adults with answers to the awkward questions which children ask (I think the book was called “Will my rabbit go to heaven?”); one of the questions was “How do I tell whether the voices in my head come from God or the devil?” The answer given was “Are they telling you to do good or bad things?” That’s not a valid answer, because the question of what is good or bad isn’t clear-cut. But more importantly, if somebody is hearing voices in their head, shouldn’t they be tested for schizophrenia? I’m sure I can remember reading somewhere that George W Bush claimed to have heard voices in his head telling him to attack Iraq…
Comment by rebecca — June 8, 2009 @ 12:11 pm
Very good post. Whenever I hear people say “God told me to tell you……” I run the other way. Don’t you think God can use the ears he gave me too?
Comment by raginggenius — June 8, 2009 @ 1:17 pm
Subo I am in your town. Hiya!!
Comment by Laura — June 8, 2009 @ 1:33 pm
This is a very difficult subject, and I’m feeling pretty much the same as Jon when he said:
‘I often wonder whether the god i believe in is at all the same as the one others do. the god that i often hear being touted is not a god i like very much at all.’
I said to my mum on the phone the other day that I used feel like I understood what ‘trying to be like Jesus’ meant, but now I feel a bit confused about it. There seems to be so many different views on the character of God, and quite often they differ from my own. Where does that leave me? Can I trust my own thoughts about God? Or am I making God into who I want Him to be rather than seeing Him for who He is?
I find it incredibly difficult when people say ‘God is saying…’
How are they so confident? I think there are only a couple of occassions in my life as christian where I’ve felt that God has said something to me, and even then they were gentle nudges.
I think we are often too quick to presume that we know what God thinks about a situation and how He is acting in it. In my opinion, the emphasis needs to shift towards living out what we do know is right, which is listening and acting lovingly towards others. I’m sure that God is quite capable of speaking for Himself should He deem it necessary!
Comment by Hayles — June 8, 2009 @ 1:39 pm
i think we should be careful about dismissing people who use the ‘God told me’ line too often. yes, i agree God can tell me directly [20] but then why shouldn’t he use a prophet, hey isn’t that a more familiar biblical image? and yes i agree we manipulate god’s image, but then god’s image is so huge and diverse that any representation is in some way manipulative. example, i’m trying to do a project with people who have a very stern image of god, so i’m stressing the God of celebration. it’s not that their image is wrong, or mine right, but that all our images are but the tip of the iceberg, wholly incomplete!
Comment by Gfeef — June 8, 2009 @ 1:50 pm
It’s easy to distrust others’ views of God as manipulative or self-serving, but Hayles’ questions have been with me a lot lately: “Can I trust my own thoughts about God? Or am I making God into who I want Him to be rather than seeing Him for who He is?” But if they get it wrong and I get it wrong where does that leave all this? Does God say anything? Do anything?
Comment by The Millers — June 8, 2009 @ 3:57 pm
Ahh… the Millers (24):
“Does God say anything? Do anything?”
Good Qs.
Comment by JF — June 8, 2009 @ 4:44 pm
In the town I work there is a very enterprising guy who has done a lot of really good things, particularly in the area of team ministry. However it is always his way or the highway. If you challenge an idea it has always come from God and he ends up expressing doubts in your salvation. He has, inevitably, rubbed some folk up the wrong way. I therefore get very nervouis about those who seem to claim a direct line from God.
Comment by RockingRev — June 8, 2009 @ 4:48 pm
In response to Rebecca (@19) – you are right God seldom speaks through people in straightforward ways and when He does we are even more suspicious and that’s part of the problem. I was not wanting to prescribe any certain way that God speaks through people it was more general – as I believe God speaks through people in many and varied ways.
Comment by marcus — June 8, 2009 @ 5:25 pm
Hiya Laura
oh, wow, your in Brissol, and I’m just workin’ till I doze. life’s not fair. someone needs to do an ASBO festival.
as to hearing the voice of God, i do very much believe God speaks to us, holds us, leads us, responds when we put our trust in Him. – except when someone says ‘God told me …’, I end up thinking ‘No No No.’ (the lack of grace and humility’s a dead give away)
Comment by subo — June 8, 2009 @ 5:46 pm
god gave me this cartoon…
true?
or
false?
Comment by jonbirch — June 8, 2009 @ 6:36 pm
Jon – as a writer, I don’t go there. Instead, I write down what’s in my head (which is weird enough some days). I then have an at least one (preferably more) people I trust read my ramblings to help me tune out what’s my BS so I can “try” to turn more into God. Sometimes I test drive the material by posting it on a blog to see if the feedback indicates I’m daft or not. Then my editor tweaks with it.
I do feel that being a writer is my calling – it’s what feeds my soul and I pray everyone can find that thing that feeds them. (That should not be confused with the writing life trying to hustle for $ in this economy stinks.)
Comment by beckyG — June 8, 2009 @ 8:12 pm
Subo [28], what you said makes me think that maybe God does reach out to communicate with us, but that we must hold on to that transaction delicately, with tenderness, humility, and doubt. Maybe then it won’t get too tainted with ourselves.
And your words also remind me of something a friend said recently: that whenever someone says that they have the RIGHT Christian doctrine, they automatically give themselves away that they don’t have it.
Comment by The Millers — June 9, 2009 @ 12:22 am
cheers for the response Millers
Jon, 29. sometimes I take a view that God wants to relate to us, he gives us various skills, and enjoys watching what we do with them. I think He’s engaging with us in conversation, not dictating what we say,
so I think He’s surprised and delighted with your cartoons, egging you on to try new stuff, and holding you firmly in His love so you can make cartoons from a point of having some experience of God
Comment by subo — June 9, 2009 @ 10:53 am
It’s hard enough working out what I am, without even thinking about what god is. I know god is ineffable, but does God?
Comment by themethatisme — June 9, 2009 @ 11:48 am
Mike @2..er, well I think that’s partly what the Bible itself is about isn’t it?
Comment by Pat — June 9, 2009 @ 12:06 pm
I agree with Hayles at comment 22.
I’m probably too cynical but modern day self appointed “prophets” make me cringe!
Comment by Hazel — June 10, 2009 @ 9:43 pm
Greetings to one and all, in that mighty name…the name which is above ever name, also the only name which has power to actually transform a life. That most wonderful name: “JESUS”. There’s no other name given unto the human race with transforming power to save to the uttermost.
I, myself, am…first…and foremost, a most devout follower of our Lord, and Savior, Jesus the Christ.
Couldn’t I have just as easily have said…I’m a Christian? I could have true enough. Also I’ll say: back during the days of the apostles…saying you were a Christian, would have been saying it all. Too, back within that day and time, would have been saying enough, to have brought much tribulations and possible death your way, as well.
This would have also been true for the first couple Century’s and somewhere over into the third Century, after Jesus’ crucifixion.
Which somewhere within that time frame a government came into being, one that was willing to step up, and go to bat for Christian’s.
What I’m saying is: this government, was not only for the Christians, but also had vowed to be their protectors.
Now having a protector: Just what would this mean to the Christian’s?
For you to visualize what this would mean to the Christian’s…using your imagination and seeing a woman, she, being pregnant. Of course, both here and her husband are counting the months…when this grand occasion will happen.
Even so, she taking some kind of medicine for an ache or pain somewhere else within her body, has removed those aches and pains. What she doesn’t know though, taking this none prescription drug has so conditioned her body, that she’ll never again know what it will be like to have a labor pain.
Which would mean…when the nine months is up…both her and her husband will wait and wait for the baby to come forth. They could wait too long…or if they’re wise…go in for medical advise right away.
When this Government took over the protecting of the church…it also removed the hopes of the Church producing, or bringing to spiritual birth, such men as Apostle Paul, John the Baptist, Peter, James and John, and so forth.
It did not, by no means, limit God’s power to bring such men into being. The only thing that it did do, was: it took this glorious experience, and blessing from Church, which would mean: God would then send forth true men into his harvest fields, to both prepare and make ready a harvest of soldiers of the cross. Men who would neither bend nor bow, to the will of man. Men, as was Daniel of whom was through into the lion’s dean, also like the three Hebrew Children…Shadrack, Meshack, and abedmego…who were thrown into the furnace which was heated up seven times that, of it’s normal heating range.
I was reading on one of the blogs: this woman was complaining of going through a lot of persecution within this one supposedly Christian society type Bible training school.
I was telling her: It’s not the easiest thing in the world to do, but we’re to do it anyway…that is rejoice in tribulations, for as the Bible says: tribulations worketh patients and Patients maketh not ashamed. To some up what it’s saying it’s only part of the maturing material that the Lord, uses to get us prepared to stand before him one of these days and hear Him say: “Well done my good and faithful servant, You’ve been faithful over a few things, now I’ll make you ruler over many things. Enter ye into the blessings of the Lord.”
In closing: I’m an ordained minister and fulltime writer. I’ll also leave a link to my latest published book.
Much love, your brother in Christ Jesus.
Bill
http://www.eloquentbooks.com/BeyondTheGoldenSunsetAndByTheCrystalSea.html
Comment by William Dunigan — June 11, 2009 @ 9:47 pm
This woman told me that God was telling her that I needed to be plugged into a socket. How very rude. She knew nothing about me and at the time I was on beta blockers for stress so the last thing I needed was to be plugged into a socket! Probably she noticed I wasn’t joining in the naff choruses in a sufficiently ecstatic manner.
However I did have a ‘word of knowledge’ from someone that was amazing and very encouraging and there was no way she could have known of its significance to me as it had nothing to do with anything I’d said to her. I’m quite a cynical person, so I don’t believe these things readily.
Comment by Tiggy — June 15, 2009 @ 10:47 pm