Let’s see, we can add racism and war to places where this is done.
the commonality of not facing the darkness in ourselves is kind of odd as there’s a lot of literature (at least in the fantasy and sci-fi I’ve read) where characters have to face the darkness in themselves, and deal with it, or not.
It’s been seen what the darkness in me, helped along by bipolar, can do and I’m in the middle of having to deal with it’s effects, again. Errr.
i think of you as someone who has to wrestle, forrest. but circumstance and a strong and good character mean you face your darkness in ways that others wouldn’t dare. i’ve had to face dark stuff… that, or not really live. i love that you wrestle. even though we may be poles apart in personality, or interests, or culture, or opinion, i do see you as something of a fellow journeyer (sorry if that sounds corny). i just think the way you are and express who you are connects with more people than you could know.
This post angers and touches me. My father and grandfather both molested me for years. I found it much easier to dehumanize my grandfather as an evil monster than my father simply because I knew my father better and saw the good with the bad. And I had much more invested in our relationship.
Don’t get me wrong. I think it was a horrible thing to do to a child and when I read of child abuse, it makes my blood boil.
But I think we see these abusers we don’t know as one-dimensional monsters, but God sees us more like I did my father. He sees us as frail humans. He knows about us…the good, the evil and the human and is terribly invested in us. Enough not to give up on us.
Thanks jon.
I’ve always felt disconnected even when I’m connected. There’s always been an “I’m not really one of these people, I don’t belong here” thing in me.
The only place I have a sense of belonging is in my home with my trains, cat, and kites. Have to confess, well, don’t _have_ to, but will, haven’t even ever felt much connected to Kathy, my wife. :-/ And I think she could affirm my trouble with that.
And it doesn’t help that at this time I can’t even take the stress of living with my wife, in November I had to get my own place as on account of that bipolar and a few other things it was just too much to live with another person.
There are times I’ve said some very ugly things to God and Jesus because I’m hurt and frustrated by that and other things. God said he knows I’m frustrated and hurt, don’t worry about it; but, don’t say those certain two things to me again.
I don’t know, maybe it is part my innate nature and part environment what with moving every 24 months as Dad got transferred. One didn’t connect deeply because those connections would soon be broken. Much heartbreak avoided that way.
And here at 46 years old that method of being continues.
Honestly, I kind of enjoy occasional times of being poles apart in opinion – and try to tell mine without judging the other person for theirs, and listen to theirs – but admittedly do get a bit intense at times. And yes, I do hope that at times it can come to be seen my way.
But, yeah, that universally not belonging here thing is deep seated and difficult to shake.
Have had a very hard time finding “like minded souls”. And, perversely, when I do, it scares me in a way not sure how to define.
(why the blankety-blank do I have this compulsion to keep spilling my guts here for all the world to see?)
One case that sticks in my mind is the murder of James Bulger. It is now about sixteen years ago and I still remember the media furore that ensured. The Sun, other papers and even some people who should have known better blamed the behaviour of the killers on watching video nasties despite lack of evidence to that effect. I don’t think anyone could face the idea that these children could do such a horrendous murder on their own initiative. If they could do this then maybe so could our children. If we accepted that was true then we would have to face the idea that we all capable of evil. It is a lot easier to say these people were some how different from us or were influenced by the media.
I’ve often thought that people who live alongside, walk alongside, listen to, talk with, work with, cry with/over/for, are belonging to…. …these very same people
are called to a life that’s not so very easily shared, understood or maybe even valued…
as to owning our darkness, I’ve started to realise how much people seem to blame someone else for their own behaviour. sometimes they even seem to believe the accusations tossed so unjustifiably
recently a Christian friend dumped me in it, then said God would forgive my behaviour – whatever I’d done!
despite avoiding the false accusations, it’s awesome to realise Christ values us so highly knowing the depths of our fear and failure’s
Forrest — I do have a caveat. Is there any possibility at all that your wife could be reading this blog? If so, even if you’re writing under a pseudonym, you’ve given so much detail about yourself that she would surely be able to identify you. Does this concern you?
“Hello darkness, my old friend, Ive come to talk with you again” starts off Simon and Garfunkel’s “The Sound of Silence” – how many levels of meaning might that have?
In context?
Out of context?
Hi Rebecca; No, no concern, she knows my full name, it’s on our marriage license; and, there’s not an overabundance of people named Forrest floating around out there. She knows I come here and has said she comes here from time to time.
Kathy and I have had conversations between us about a lot of subjects here therefore she has a pretty good idea what I’d be saying.
Has also said she knows that this place meets a need for me.
She has even posted here in the past. So, I’m not concerned, no big thing to me: little to none of what I say here is going to be new information to her.
One last thing, when we’re together at my place or hers, I’ll often ask her to look over what I’m about to put up here and tell if it might be a little overdone, or if on a bad fatigue and fibromyalgia day if thoughts are too scrambled.
Okay, my parents will be in from out of town in 3 hours – you know what that causes!!!
Thank you for this. I grew up thinking everything was black or white. One was all good or all bad. No in between. So, yes, I struggle with praying for my “enemies” and seeing others who have committed these types of crimes as human. But, as you say, the struggle is good!
Brenda
The World in General – I think that the problem is that there is no measured response. Often the responses in the media are ill informed and reactionary.
It is interesting to see how the conversation has moved towards issues surrounding children. This is the area in which we as a society seem to find ourselves most disturbed.
Having known someone I know, respect and admire been made an target for such dehumanising names I now can see so many more people, not just at the extreme of the scale, but all people in my life, a little more through the eyes of Jesus.
This made me cry. A while ago I heard my mother say to my father that I ‘wasn’t ALL bad’. Most other people don’t see me as bad at all, but my family always have for no explicable reason other than me having been adopted. That put me in an ideal position to be a scapegoat for them – I could be blamed because I wasn’t really one of them.
i have to do this to myself, – dehumanize me, or my circumstances to escape the scary things that happen, i hate it, but if i dont, everything gets harder
i feel like im alone, even tho i know Gods with me, it doesnt feel like it… </3
I really identify with you a lot Forrest. I have friends who are bipolar and sometimes I wonder if I am, though I don’t have enough highs to be classed as that I guess. It did worry me this week though that after being fairly happy, I suddenly had a week of depression for no obvious reason. And came out of it for no obvious reason. Maybe I just have something troubling me. And I never know what my hormones are going to do or when. I have Stein-Leventhal syndrome and that gives you mood swings, though generally I keep on a relatively even keel.
Nomie, it’s very hard to feel God’s with you when you’re depressed. My pastor was saying this last night, that for a period in the 90s he was v. depressed and had no sense at all of God being there. I don’t know any way out of it except to find some way of being less depressed – usually chemical or a change in circumstances.
Subo what is Mystic River? I’m an idiot in that I trust people far too much. It’s got me into lots of trouble. I also tend to trust people to realise that my anger is an expression of my pain, but they don’t.
thanks twiggy… yea, ive had that said to me so many times, but im still living at home with family, and dont really want to have to resort to showing my sadness anymore than i have to, they dont know -and im quite happy [in a round about way] that it stays that way, and involving any sort of outside help, chemicals, or change will alert anyone who is watching or cares, to a change/strangeness, and i cant deal with that,it will tip me over the edge, change to many things that i cant cope with… so im just having to wait it out, its so very hard, and sometimes i fear its not worth it – but i manage to find a way out normally… but is is so very scary when i cant feel God, that’s the hardest bit…
fearing He might not actually be there at all…
which then provokes 10 million trains of thought, which lead to me again, reverting to dehumanizing, thinking in terrible for doubting, even though its hard and just forgeting everything… :\
I had to realise the part my family played in my depression in order for it to be some way alleviated and for some healing to start. But it led to a parting of the ways, but that was a good thing.
Anti-depressant use might not show up that drastically and if your family are like mine, they might not even notice.
tiggy… good point, yea… i think that scares me tho, i would feel so worsly terrible if they didnt notice, never mind, i guess i shall just see what happens…
i guess i just sorta feel like im not important enough, or my issues/problems/feeling or emotions aren’t that bad, or aren’t worth bothering anyone about – aren’t worth getting help, because i SHOULD be able to deal with them, like i just totally pretend im fine – abd either people believe it, and dont care enough to notice, or DO notice, but dont care enough to do anything, ergh, sorry, just getting angry @ me, for being so bothered by them, i shouldnt care, but i do…
and its ALL church related, so it makes God harder to follow – then im angry at everyone, and i have no one to be more angry at, so i get angry at God, and THAT scares me, so i hide, before i hurt…
FFS – of course you are important! Just because certain people around you don’t think you are doesn’t mean anything. And who says you SHOULD be able to deal with them? Why should you be expected to be able to deal with something that famous professors of neurobiology can’t even deal with? They mystery of how our brains function is still remains pretty much a mystery and it’s a case of trial and error at the moment. But doing nothing won’t change anything.
exactly – it WONT change anything, if i do anything – it MIGHT make things better – but its more probable to make everything drastically worse… and thats something i dont want to experience, i can just about handle things now, and thats ok, it wont change unless i do something, nothing means i KNOW i can deal with it, i think
its always been expected of me, to be able to deal with everything – and because one lie lead to the next, ‘im fine’ suddenly turned from, not quite being the truth, to being a total MASSIVE completely huge falesness, that is the ONLY way things aren’t going to change, routine, it whats its normally called…
it sucks, but i dont know, i dont think i want to change, because im scared, it will make things worse, ‘im fine’ WONT be able to cover the gigantic rip of the truth, that has so naturally occurred… :’(
The truth, however painful, ultimately sets you free. I had to be forced out of my situation, but I’m glad I was, even though it’s been very traumatic. Something will happen in the end and then you’ll wish you’d not wasted so much time just keeping your head down.
… yup, i shall endure, with my head down for as long as humanly possible, then give it to God and will let you know, what happens, eventually… thanks x
sorry folks, Mystic River is a beautiful film that grapples with child abduction/rape
I so much relate to the different perceptions in your family, I now regret not having any support from my family through the worst stuff, and yet they could have asked
and part of my recovery has been giving back their stories to them, they are more fanciful than Barbara Cartland’s finest, casting people in an impossible range of exotic lights, needless to say I don’t get handed the card for the sweet heroin!
whilst I think depression is more complex than my tiny head can take on, I also know there’s useful things out there to help. apparently there’s a huge amount of excitement around the benefits of certain foods in managing serious mental distress, including schizophrenia and ADHD, I know I’d be happier giving a child whole foods and omega 3/6 oil than meds. Further there is something we can do in mindfulness and knowledge of body states.
I also think there is an element of God’s revelation within our mental distress. In that God is trinity/love, God is wounded by our rejection, and some of our suffering is a result of others not relating to us from a position of being in God. So when we can welcome each other as belonging together and revealing Christ, we can heal some of the alienation just by listening.
Let’s see, we can add racism and war to places where this is done.
the commonality of not facing the darkness in ourselves is kind of odd as there’s a lot of literature (at least in the fantasy and sci-fi I’ve read) where characters have to face the darkness in themselves, and deal with it, or not.
It’s been seen what the darkness in me, helped along by bipolar, can do and I’m in the middle of having to deal with it’s effects, again. Errr.
Comment by Forrest — July 12, 2009 @ 11:11 pm
i think of you as someone who has to wrestle, forrest. but circumstance and a strong and good character mean you face your darkness in ways that others wouldn’t dare. i’ve had to face dark stuff… that, or not really live. i love that you wrestle. even though we may be poles apart in personality, or interests, or culture, or opinion, i do see you as something of a fellow journeyer (sorry if that sounds corny). i just think the way you are and express who you are connects with more people than you could know.
Comment by jonbirch — July 12, 2009 @ 11:27 pm
This post angers and touches me. My father and grandfather both molested me for years. I found it much easier to dehumanize my grandfather as an evil monster than my father simply because I knew my father better and saw the good with the bad. And I had much more invested in our relationship.
Don’t get me wrong. I think it was a horrible thing to do to a child and when I read of child abuse, it makes my blood boil.
But I think we see these abusers we don’t know as one-dimensional monsters, but God sees us more like I did my father. He sees us as frail humans. He knows about us…the good, the evil and the human and is terribly invested in us. Enough not to give up on us.
Comment by Lisa — July 13, 2009 @ 12:36 am
Thanks jon.
I’ve always felt disconnected even when I’m connected. There’s always been an “I’m not really one of these people, I don’t belong here” thing in me.
The only place I have a sense of belonging is in my home with my trains, cat, and kites. Have to confess, well, don’t _have_ to, but will, haven’t even ever felt much connected to Kathy, my wife. :-/ And I think she could affirm my trouble with that.
And it doesn’t help that at this time I can’t even take the stress of living with my wife, in November I had to get my own place as on account of that bipolar and a few other things it was just too much to live with another person.
There are times I’ve said some very ugly things to God and Jesus because I’m hurt and frustrated by that and other things. God said he knows I’m frustrated and hurt, don’t worry about it; but, don’t say those certain two things to me again.
I don’t know, maybe it is part my innate nature and part environment what with moving every 24 months as Dad got transferred. One didn’t connect deeply because those connections would soon be broken. Much heartbreak avoided that way.
And here at 46 years old that method of being continues.
Honestly, I kind of enjoy occasional times of being poles apart in opinion – and try to tell mine without judging the other person for theirs, and listen to theirs – but admittedly do get a bit intense at times. And yes, I do hope that at times it can come to be seen my way.
But, yeah, that universally not belonging here thing is deep seated and difficult to shake.
Have had a very hard time finding “like minded souls”. And, perversely, when I do, it scares me in a way not sure how to define.
(why the blankety-blank do I have this compulsion to keep spilling my guts here for all the world to see?)
Comment by Forrest — July 13, 2009 @ 12:39 am
Oh, Lisa.
Comment by Forrest — July 13, 2009 @ 12:41 am
One case that sticks in my mind is the murder of James Bulger. It is now about sixteen years ago and I still remember the media furore that ensured. The Sun, other papers and even some people who should have known better blamed the behaviour of the killers on watching video nasties despite lack of evidence to that effect. I don’t think anyone could face the idea that these children could do such a horrendous murder on their own initiative. If they could do this then maybe so could our children. If we accepted that was true then we would have to face the idea that we all capable of evil. It is a lot easier to say these people were some how different from us or were influenced by the media.
Comment by David Derbyshire — July 13, 2009 @ 8:10 am
This touches deep wells of emotion for many.
I’ve often thought that people who live alongside, walk alongside, listen to, talk with, work with, cry with/over/for, are belonging to…. …these very same people
are called to a life that’s not so very easily shared, understood or maybe even valued…
…..lovin Lisa’s insight…
Comment by MMP — July 13, 2009 @ 8:11 am
respect Lisa, it takes some time to find how highly esteemed we are by God, when people have miss treated us as children
Comment by subo — July 13, 2009 @ 11:37 am
Hi Forrest, hoping things are slowly getting better for you, all the best
Comment by subo — July 13, 2009 @ 11:38 am
as to owning our darkness, I’ve started to realise how much people seem to blame someone else for their own behaviour. sometimes they even seem to believe the accusations tossed so unjustifiably
recently a Christian friend dumped me in it, then said God would forgive my behaviour – whatever I’d done!
despite avoiding the false accusations, it’s awesome to realise Christ values us so highly knowing the depths of our fear and failure’s
Comment by subo — July 13, 2009 @ 11:44 am
Thank you to everyone for being so honest
Forrest — I do have a caveat. Is there any possibility at all that your wife could be reading this blog? If so, even if you’re writing under a pseudonym, you’ve given so much detail about yourself that she would surely be able to identify you. Does this concern you?
Comment by rebecca — July 13, 2009 @ 12:12 pm
“Hello darkness, my old friend, Ive come to talk with you again” starts off Simon and Garfunkel’s “The Sound of Silence” – how many levels of meaning might that have?
In context?
Out of context?
Comment by Forrest — July 13, 2009 @ 12:12 pm
Hi Rebecca; No, no concern, she knows my full name, it’s on our marriage license; and, there’s not an overabundance of people named Forrest floating around out there. She knows I come here and has said she comes here from time to time.
Kathy and I have had conversations between us about a lot of subjects here therefore she has a pretty good idea what I’d be saying.
Has also said she knows that this place meets a need for me.
She has even posted here in the past. So, I’m not concerned, no big thing to me: little to none of what I say here is going to be new information to her.
Gotta go to help Grumman, poor fellow can’t get that nerve-damaged left back leg up to scratch his chin
http://these4partsofme.blogspot.com/2009/06/accidental-reflection-of-feline-future.html
Comment by Forrest — July 13, 2009 @ 12:21 pm
One last thing, when we’re together at my place or hers, I’ll often ask her to look over what I’m about to put up here and tell if it might be a little overdone, or if on a bad fatigue and fibromyalgia day if thoughts are too scrambled.
Okay, my parents will be in from out of town in 3 hours – you know what that causes!!!
Comment by Forrest — July 13, 2009 @ 12:32 pm
Jon,
Thank you for this. I grew up thinking everything was black or white. One was all good or all bad. No in between. So, yes, I struggle with praying for my “enemies” and seeing others who have committed these types of crimes as human. But, as you say, the struggle is good!
Brenda
Comment by Brenda — July 13, 2009 @ 1:13 pm
Lisa – I’m so sorry to hear that!
The World in General – I think that the problem is that there is no measured response. Often the responses in the media are ill informed and reactionary.
It is interesting to see how the conversation has moved towards issues surrounding children. This is the area in which we as a society seem to find ourselves most disturbed.
Comment by Robb — July 13, 2009 @ 2:52 pm
I like this.
Comment by Jason — July 13, 2009 @ 3:49 pm
Having known someone I know, respect and admire been made an target for such dehumanising names I now can see so many more people, not just at the extreme of the scale, but all people in my life, a little more through the eyes of Jesus.
Comment by Cochleate — July 13, 2009 @ 5:10 pm
This made me cry. A while ago I heard my mother say to my father that I ‘wasn’t ALL bad’. Most other people don’t see me as bad at all, but my family always have for no explicable reason other than me having been adopted. That put me in an ideal position to be a scapegoat for them – I could be blamed because I wasn’t really one of them.
Comment by Tiggy — July 13, 2009 @ 9:00 pm
Hi Tiggy;
And that hurts.
Comment by Forrest — July 13, 2009 @ 10:12 pm
take care Tiggy, that scapegoat role is a painful one, one I’ve learnt I jump into, one where I try to swap for mercy – only to get caught up again
and yet God reaches to the part of me that runs off, shamed and shunned, God who knows I need the warmth of his tenderness
… and to catch a glimps of his smile – celebrating our tiny steps towards him (maybe just taking a peek for now)
Comment by subo — July 13, 2009 @ 10:16 pm
i like this…
i have to do this to myself, – dehumanize me, or my circumstances to escape the scary things that happen, i hate it, but if i dont, everything gets harder
i feel like im alone, even tho i know Gods with me, it doesnt feel like it… </3
Comment by nomieenerd — July 13, 2009 @ 10:18 pm
is any one a fan of ‘Mystic River’, it seems we often mistrust the wrong people
Comment by subo — July 13, 2009 @ 10:18 pm
I really identify with you a lot Forrest. I have friends who are bipolar and sometimes I wonder if I am, though I don’t have enough highs to be classed as that I guess. It did worry me this week though that after being fairly happy, I suddenly had a week of depression for no obvious reason. And came out of it for no obvious reason. Maybe I just have something troubling me. And I never know what my hormones are going to do or when. I have Stein-Leventhal syndrome and that gives you mood swings, though generally I keep on a relatively even keel.
Comment by Tiggy — July 13, 2009 @ 10:19 pm
Nomie, it’s very hard to feel God’s with you when you’re depressed. My pastor was saying this last night, that for a period in the 90s he was v. depressed and had no sense at all of God being there. I don’t know any way out of it except to find some way of being less depressed – usually chemical or a change in circumstances.
Subo what is Mystic River? I’m an idiot in that I trust people far too much. It’s got me into lots of trouble. I also tend to trust people to realise that my anger is an expression of my pain, but they don’t.
Comment by Tiggy — July 13, 2009 @ 10:25 pm
thanks twiggy… yea, ive had that said to me so many times, but im still living at home with family, and dont really want to have to resort to showing my sadness anymore than i have to, they dont know -and im quite happy [in a round about way] that it stays that way, and involving any sort of outside help, chemicals, or change will alert anyone who is watching or cares, to a change/strangeness, and i cant deal with that,it will tip me over the edge, change to many things that i cant cope with… so im just having to wait it out, its so very hard, and sometimes i fear its not worth it – but i manage to find a way out normally… but is is so very scary when i cant feel God, that’s the hardest bit…
fearing He might not actually be there at all…
which then provokes 10 million trains of thought, which lead to me again, reverting to dehumanizing, thinking in terrible for doubting, even though its hard and just forgeting everything… :\
Comment by nomieenerd — July 13, 2009 @ 10:32 pm
fun times (N)
Comment by nomieenerd — July 13, 2009 @ 10:35 pm
I had to realise the part my family played in my depression in order for it to be some way alleviated and for some healing to start. But it led to a parting of the ways, but that was a good thing.
Anti-depressant use might not show up that drastically and if your family are like mine, they might not even notice.
Comment by Tiggy — July 13, 2009 @ 10:42 pm
tiggy… good point, yea… i think that scares me tho, i would feel so worsly terrible if they didnt notice, never mind, i guess i shall just see what happens…
i guess i just sorta feel like im not important enough, or my issues/problems/feeling or emotions aren’t that bad, or aren’t worth bothering anyone about – aren’t worth getting help, because i SHOULD be able to deal with them, like i just totally pretend im fine – abd either people believe it, and dont care enough to notice, or DO notice, but dont care enough to do anything, ergh, sorry, just getting angry @ me, for being so bothered by them, i shouldnt care, but i do…
and its ALL church related, so it makes God harder to follow – then im angry at everyone, and i have no one to be more angry at, so i get angry at God, and THAT scares me, so i hide, before i hurt…
Comment by nomieenerd — July 13, 2009 @ 11:02 pm
FFS – of course you are important! Just because certain people around you don’t think you are doesn’t mean anything. And who says you SHOULD be able to deal with them? Why should you be expected to be able to deal with something that famous professors of neurobiology can’t even deal with? They mystery of how our brains function is still remains pretty much a mystery and it’s a case of trial and error at the moment. But doing nothing won’t change anything.
Comment by Tiggy — July 13, 2009 @ 11:29 pm
exactly – it WONT change anything, if i do anything – it MIGHT make things better – but its more probable to make everything drastically worse… and thats something i dont want to experience, i can just about handle things now, and thats ok, it wont change unless i do something, nothing means i KNOW i can deal with it, i think
its always been expected of me, to be able to deal with everything – and because one lie lead to the next, ‘im fine’ suddenly turned from, not quite being the truth, to being a total MASSIVE completely huge falesness, that is the ONLY way things aren’t going to change, routine, it whats its normally called…
it sucks, but i dont know, i dont think i want to change, because im scared, it will make things worse, ‘im fine’ WONT be able to cover the gigantic rip of the truth, that has so naturally occurred… :’(
Comment by nomieenerd — July 13, 2009 @ 11:35 pm
The truth, however painful, ultimately sets you free. I had to be forced out of my situation, but I’m glad I was, even though it’s been very traumatic. Something will happen in the end and then you’ll wish you’d not wasted so much time just keeping your head down.
Comment by Tiggy — July 13, 2009 @ 11:44 pm
Comment by nomieenerd — July 13, 2009 @ 11:45 pm
sorry folks, Mystic River is a beautiful film that grapples with child abduction/rape
I so much relate to the different perceptions in your family, I now regret not having any support from my family through the worst stuff, and yet they could have asked
and part of my recovery has been giving back their stories to them, they are more fanciful than Barbara Cartland’s finest, casting people in an impossible range of exotic lights, needless to say I don’t get handed the card for the sweet heroin!
whilst I think depression is more complex than my tiny head can take on, I also know there’s useful things out there to help. apparently there’s a huge amount of excitement around the benefits of certain foods in managing serious mental distress, including schizophrenia and ADHD, I know I’d be happier giving a child whole foods and omega 3/6 oil than meds. Further there is something we can do in mindfulness and knowledge of body states.
I also think there is an element of God’s revelation within our mental distress. In that God is trinity/love, God is wounded by our rejection, and some of our suffering is a result of others not relating to us from a position of being in God. So when we can welcome each other as belonging together and revealing Christ, we can heal some of the alienation just by listening.
Comment by subo — July 14, 2009 @ 8:30 am
(34)
*Listening*
Comment by Steve Lancaster — July 14, 2009 @ 4:24 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otx49Ko3fxw – this thread reminds me of this song…
Comment by Aideen — July 14, 2009 @ 11:11 pm