Welcome to ASBO Jesus
Enjoy your stay and have your say! Cheers, Jon
Blogroll
- BigDaddyWhale
- birchmultimedia
- celtic difference
- changing worship
- dennis coburn
- frontier youth trust
- growing enthusiasm
- holy famoley
- iain cotton, sculptor
- jonny baker
- let them eat cake
- mark roques
- mindwriter
- naked pastor
- proost.co.uk
- Rainforest SOS
- reality bites
- sanctuary
- si smith
- sophia network
- stepping stones nigeria
Archives
- April 2013
- March 2013
- February 2013
- January 2013
- July 2012
- June 2012
- May 2012
- April 2012
- March 2012
- February 2012
- January 2012
- December 2011
- November 2011
- October 2011
- September 2011
- August 2011
- July 2011
- June 2011
- May 2011
- April 2011
- March 2011
- February 2011
- January 2011
- December 2010
- November 2010
- October 2010
- September 2010
- August 2010
- July 2010
- June 2010
- May 2010
- April 2010
- March 2010
- February 2010
- January 2010
- December 2009
- November 2009
- October 2009
- September 2009
- August 2009
- July 2009
- June 2009
- May 2009
- April 2009
- March 2009
- February 2009
- January 2009
- December 2008
- November 2008
- October 2008
- September 2008
- August 2008
- July 2008
- June 2008
- May 2008
- April 2008
- March 2008
- February 2008
- January 2008
- December 2007
- November 2007
- October 2007
- September 2007
- August 2007
- July 2007
- June 2007
- May 2007
- April 2007
- March 2007
- February 2007
- January 2007
Sad but true in many churches. But I note that both the minister and all those who are thinking of their imprisonment are without eyes! And yet I’m sure that this minister could also be driving a bus containing the other half of his congregation, with smiles on their faces, happy that at last they have found a minister who shares their vision. A church will always contain a full spectrum of opinions about the minister, from those who hope he will stay until the day he retires to those who hope that he will be called to another parish tomorrow!
What gets annoying is when people come to a church full knowing what the vision of the particular church is – disagree with it – but stay in the hopes that they can be the ones to change it into their own special thing…
Yes, good point, Peter. Even the best of ministers can’t please all the people all the time, that’s for sure.
I reckon there will be people in most congregations who are miserable because they’re not getting EVERYTHING all their own way, they’ve got a bad attitude and would be a thorn in the side of any minister – they wouldn’t be buying in to ANY vision. (I’ve seen lovely lovely ministers virtually destroyed by such individuals).
But how tragic if – as Jon’s cartoon seems to suggest – everyone was miserable and feeling imprisoned and the minister was oblivious to it. Just awful.
http://www.twoorthree.net/2009/10/vision-or-prison.html
Do people like to be going somewhere? I think this is a cultural thing. I don’t feel a need to be going anywhere – just being with God is enough. But then I’m half Asian and we’re good at just being. The idea that you have to be ‘going somewhere’ is a Western one and particularly Protestant. I think it’s even stronger in the US because they seem to be very purpose-driven.
‘good at just being’, that’s inspiring Tiggy, thanks
It does often feel to me, that ‘leadership’, is seen as ‘making things happen’, ‘getting people on board’, ‘clarifying our ministry’, and yes, I’ve often felt crushed by this kind of approach to doing church.
I think it’s fear that stops us from putting our adgenda’s aside, and listening to each other. have just read a great quote about this, so will try and find it for you
thanks for the image jon
Ah the latest band wagon1
I used to never understand the issues with vision in the church.
Now I do.
‘Nuff said
Love the idea of just being, but we have to be with a purpose! Our purpose is discipleship; discipleship in our own lives and leading others into discipleship as well. Surely anything less is not being faithful to the call of Jesus!
Then leave that church and go to another one where the vision fits you……
Beatthedrum – that seems to be the logical step, but I think that in reality it can be a wrench to leave a community that you may have been a part of your whole life. Sadly our relations can be a whole lot more complex and disentangling yourself from the multitude of relationships formed is no easy task…or indeed maintaining those relationships.
Peterkershaw – yes, this is clearly a case of the blind leading the blind.
Mind you, I’m not sure I would share his vision…presumably he is based in the seedy side of town since he appears to be taking delivery of a set of culturally relevant podium dancers!
It is hard or you could ask God to change YOUR heart so that you can be part of the vision in your current church…
This can be two sided coin. When I came to my present charge I had a picture of the Church’s vision from what was told to me by the vacancy group and the church profile that had been prepared by the church. To put it mildly, there were a number of “mistakes” so that the reality was very different to what I was told. I have now sat down with the whole leadership team and we have developed a vision together that we hope the church will buy into. I certainly do not admit anyone to membership now until I have explained what our vision is and asked them to decide if they are happy with this before they join.
it was for goingaroundbehindbars, that Christ has set us free?
you know, i’m really not sure that churches having ‘a vision’ is anything more than a western thing. like community is a business or something corporate, needing to go somewhere in order to feel good about itself, rather than just ‘being’. it doesn’t appear to be a biblical thing. people have visions and dreams and the church community can get behind them… groups’ll go off and do things… some will stay and do things. all good stuff… but churches having ‘a vision’ that everybody gets behind. nah, it’s daft. the churches’ only vision should be to be the church, a community of believers and the relational stuff that entails. i think often the other stuff is invented to keep everyone feeling like they’re doing something… it’s the soft option for leaders in many ways, choosing the easy way.
don’t get me wrong. i have visions and dreams, for my life and my work. and when others encourage or get involved it is a wonderful thing. that is sooo different to what i’m talking about above.
projects and schemes etc. can be great and are often great, but it is not the churches’ role to be those things. it should encourage people in those things and embrace many sorts of different people doing many sorts of different things.
Ok Jon but what is daft about: Our vision is to be a Christian community sharing the love of Christ, reaching out to the people in this area and encouraging them to worship God and grow in the knowledge of the care and love of Christ.
rather than ‘them’ i’d probably say ‘each other’, i’d probably also say ‘living lives of worship’ (just to be sure we’re not talking about singing
)… but otherwise i think that’s fine… i wouldn’t call that a vision though, that should be the job of the church and it hasn’t changed over centuries.
Jon, I sort of agree and disagree simultaneously! But I think it’s probably more a terminology thing than anything else
I hate the whole ‘vision’ jargon and its associated buzzwords and phrases – vision statements, mission statements..you name it. And I resent all the hours one has sometimes to spend drawing up such things and arguing over the linguistic nuances
; and in this respect, I think you are right – it’s probably as much about some elements of ncontemporary culture that we’ve sometimes unthinkingly bought into, rather than anything of lasting worth and benefit.
Nevertheless, I do think it is probably necessary to have a ‘vision’ of some sort as a framework for our understandings of what ‘church’ might be – and to which we might aspire, both personally and communally (and for me it would be George MacCleods ‘chaos of uncalculating love’); which would seem to be where you’re going with your later comments @ 17.
So i guess we’re actually ‘seeing’ in pretty much the same way here
i think we do agree, pat.
my use of the term ‘vision’ in the cartoon and my above comment is based on how i perceive the word to be generally used.
i think to hold a vision of how we can better love god, one another etc… are good things, and without which, church, society, family, people throughout the world, all perish.
this is so different to the vision agendas that i see set out in so many places inc. the church.
beatthedrum… i wonder what ‘vision’ people should ever leave their church over. if the vision is to love god, love your neighbour and an envisioning of how that might look, there should surely be no problem. often disagreements are to do with the use of a building or something of a similar nature… and i think most people fall out of/with church because the churches’ main function (of being christian community) is being overlooked in favour of projects, schemes and plans. btw… i’m not saying there’s anything wrong with projects schemes and plans, but rather they shouldn’t be the be all an end all in terms of defining christian community (church).
did that make any sense at all? i’m thinking out loud.
could someone help me make sense of what it is i’m actually trying to say… please.
Jon – yes, I think we do too.
The other sad thing about that sense of ‘vision’ which we both want to reject, and which comes out through assorted comments here, is that it can all too easily become the locus for a personal power struggle – and that’s a scenario which is almost inevitably hugely damaging at both individual and corporate level
agreed…
Jon @ 24, maybe it’s the difference between a transfigured ontological view of the world – seeing how something is really meant to be at its most foundational level; and a more expedient (which I don’t necessarily mean in a pejorative way here!)and functional view of the world?
Which may not make it any clearer at all
“Where there is no vision the people perish.” That has to be a collective vision, of how best to live and be the Gospel in your particular time and culture. I have now ministered in three countries with three very different cultures and what worked in one will certainly not work in another. Even in my present charge there are two distinct cultures in the church because of a traditional industry that has died and a very large NATO base which brings in people from all over. Unless you can develop a common vision you end up with division and a whole mess or you end up not being able to reach one or other of these two very distinct groups.
“where there is no vision the people perish.” That has to be a collective vision, of how best to live and be the Gospel in your particular time and culture.” i would agree with that and everything else you wrote rockingrev. what you are talking about is exactly what i think the churches’ role is.
>> TIG: Do people like to be going somewhere? I think this is a cultural thing. I don’t feel a need to be going anywhere – just being with God is enough.
Passion and compassion should ‘move’ us to want to accomplish the work of God. Eventually, we move from the foundational peace of knowing Christ (the self-centered but important foundational concern of a new believer) to the more mature ‘holy angst’ of love that Paul felt for people, the church, and Jesus when he said things like
Of course, many people in church are urged towards service and concern for the lost without first having the peace of Christ, being freed from the obligations of the law. And even as mature believers, we need to make sure that we are motivated by concern for others, not the ‘oughts’ of the law, losing our peace.
As Paul said:
>>JON: i wonder what ‘vision’ people should ever leave their church over.
I think it’s one of three things (at least)
1. Method: Poor implementation of the vision, i.e. the leadership does not inspire people to follow, but drives them, or
2. Wrong focus: they choose a poor goal, or 3
2. Specificity: They either lack it with some ambiguous goal (to love people), or they are too narrow, or people leave because they just don’t like to commit themselves to something specific b/c their idea of church is merely “I come to be fed on Sundays.”
Why are they all still on the bus?
if indeed it is a bus
The vision is the outworking of those things Jon especially corperately.
I don’t think journey is a Western thing. Abraham’s journeys, the Israelites wilderness sojourn and our identity as aliens and foreigners are all strong biblical images. And we can’t just be. A relationship always moves. Which is why a vision is important.
And a vision needs specificity because we are all called to our communities. And it’s in discerning what the Holy Spirit is telling us today now is what will reveal that vision so that we can fulfill the vocation that we are called to.
Love the image!
though I think the cage is around the driver as well
I wd distinguish between a vision (good) and a strategy. Where there is no vision the people perish. But where there is no strategy for realising that vision the people stress out
chandy at 36… good point.
allatsea at 32… good question. no idea.
john at 37… still not sure i understand what vision is and why it’s positive in the context of being church. beyond the obvious and basic (yet still not got to grips with) themes of love, service, compassion, serving etc. hmmmm.
chandy @ 35… life is a journey.
Just another thought: Perhaps it’s the only way that the Vicar can get the congregation moving. It is something that a lot of Vicars would *love* to do to their congregations, simply because it means they are moving!
Here in the UK we suffer from “stagnant” congregations, which become “unwelcoming”. Especially in the area that I come from, prising the Old 1984 book from the congregation will be over many, many dead bodies. The Problem with this is that the congregation ages, less is able to be done, and there’s no new people coming in. This causes all sorts of problems, lack of money for the quota, lack of people to help out at Fates and other money-raising ideas, no people to help with the other works the church is involved in, or wants to become involved in.
It’s amazing what the PCC will argue about, like the colour of the new carpet that it has to be a certain kind of beige, or that you can’t move the back pew for disabled access because Mrs. Jones has ALWAYS sat there. (The pews debate seems to be a typically Anglican thing).
The point of the “Vison” is to unify action. People are meant to feel happier knowing WHY they are doing such-and-such. Why they are always being asked to bring donations of food (for the homeless shelter), etc. The Church is trying desperately to modernise, but it seems that in most cases the congregations are happy to stay right where they are. This can often lead to dwindling congregations as the younger generations imply “don’t get” the old style of worship, which eventually leads to the Parish looking at merger, or worse, closure. Perhaps this Vicar is doing this out of desperate love for his congregation.
Just a thought.
~BX
pews, i’m sorry to say, are not just an anglican problem. years ago i was attending a baptist church. my uncle and i decided it’d be a great idea to rope off the back pews, meaning everyone would have to sit further forward (meaning they could both see and hear, oft heard complaints). needless to say, some people were very cross with us indeed. but it lives on in my memory as something i enjoyed and perhaps was worth doing. who knows.
The trouble with “vision” is that the Spirit works within a body. Christ is the head, and the Spirit gives the vision to all. A lead minister, however, can tap into this vision the Spirit has given to all, or he/she can impose their own particular fragment of the vision on everyone. The pastor can try to be the Spirit to people by assigning roles and duties and goals. Only pastors don’t actually have any power to give or to maintain. So, rather than freedom, there’s constraint, and rather than renewed life there’s increased frustration. All while a pastor gets applauded by others for trying to impose a vision on all the discontents.