What, your dad’s called John, Jon? Must have got confusing.
I’m afraid when people refer to God as Father in a particular type of sentence, it makes me feel physically sick. The sentence I mean is not when they are speaking to God, but referring to Him as Father, e.g. ‘I know that Father loves me.’ It’s exactly the same feeling I used to get when this posh bloke who’d never quite detached from his mother, would say to me, ‘Mother is coming to stay this week’, whereas most of us would say ‘My mother is…’. So I don’t actually think it has got anything to do with the word Father being used in relation to God.
Anyway, Jesus taught us to say ‘Our Father’ which I always think is a bit like ‘Our Liam’ or ‘Our Pat’.
Im glad he is my father, and I often do speak of him as “Father”. It helps me connect to him as my relationshi my my earthly father was dreadfull until he died.
However he is a proper father who not only loves but disciplines in love to make us more like Jesus His other son.
But it is always good to look at our terminology
Comment by beatthedrum — November 6, 2009 @ 8:32 am
Is God my Mum? Hmmmm I think Joyce is quite a nice name for God.
Comment by gloriousthings — November 6, 2009 @ 8:47 am
#3 Laura, i don’t think i do believe you. How did you escape being called John?
This reminds me of the ‘God IS my rock’ stuff. What does that mean? God is cold, hard and erodes away over time?
Or is it rather that God only IS whichever metaphor you chose to the extent that that metaphor is effectively understood?
Yes, God is my dad (Pete), God’s in our love and interaction. My dad is lit by a divine spark, covered in God’s finger prints, which, by the way, are completely indistinguishable and irremovable from the essence of who my dad is. And my mum. And you.
Let’s not forget too that Christ, in the story of the sheep and goats, identified himself entirely as the prisoner, the sick, the naked, the starving, the smack head, the assylum seeker, the mentally ill, the gay, the single parent etc etc
I’ve had conversations with people who really struggle with the ‘God is your Father’ metaphor because they’ve had bad relationships with their dads and so ‘father’ to them is a source of abuse, hatred and despair not the love and grace of God. I think we always need to be aware of our terminology and how some ways we describe God are vastly unhelpful for a lot of people.
I was chatting to someone the other day and referred to God as ‘Father and Mother’ which didn’t go down well at all. Apparently God has revealed his divine self in male, father terms and it’s unbiblical, bordering on heretical to refer to him in female terms. Because, you know, all those times God calls him/herself a hen brooding over chicks, or a labouring woman, those are just metaphors, they don’t count. Sometimes people really annoy me. God is mother and father to me, male and female, s/he encompasses all human experience, not just male. Men do not have an exclusive claim on the language and love of God. I am not a second class religious citizen in God’s eyes because I am a woman and therefore s/he has nothing in common with me because he is MALE. Arghhhhh.
Sorry. Rant over- is it obvious I got annoyed?
Comment by theseoldshades — November 6, 2009 @ 12:19 pm
I tend to focus more on the word ‘Our’ in ‘Our Father’…it reminds me that we are all God’s children.
Had a vicar once who felt he could define who was a child of God and who wasn’t…caused a lot of problems, as you can imagine. The ‘Our’ is important to me.
God is my mother too. God birthed me physically and spiritually. I understand myself to be physically made of his essence one way or another. And spiritually reborn by what he did for me not anything I did.
He nourishes and cares for me and comforts me – all maternal traits in our culture.
Ed (12). I can attest that “cap man” is a self-portrait of/by Jon, whose look for autumn ‘09 is very much the inter-war communist revolutionary! So the goatee is very ASBO by definition. Whereas “John” looks almost nothing like Jon’s Dad, even allowing for Jon’s reticence in drawing ears
Let’s face it, God is whatever you want him to be. If you want him to be a father(/mother) figure, he’ll be a father(/mother) figure. No problem!
@18
I agree with you JF, our God can be anything we want him/her to be.
I’m enjoying Peter Rollins stuff at the mo. I particularly feel inpired by the idea of betraying your faith to remain faithful to it.
I like this. It lets God be God, whoever he/she is. And recognises our understanding/image of God is exactly that.
my dad didn’t yell at me, physically or sexually abuse me.
He did all he thought he could to give me a good start in life. I
have much to be grateful for.
but
he was also perenially disappointed in me, always
disapproving of me, always showing me up for the thoughtless,
unintelligent, lazy thing that he obviously thought me to be…
I had been teaching at a university for five years before I
finally worked out that I wasn’t as stupid as dad made me feel
Now…
I struggle with an image of God who is always disappointed with
me, who is always demanding more of me, who always makes clear that
I’m not good enough…
I know all that isn’t true, I know the words
but somehow the unlearned lessons of family life run much deeper
so speaking of God as father is a funny process for me: dangerous,
habit, conformity with churchiness but also a discipline of re-imagining
fatherhood in a different way, a discipline that might include forgiving dad…
a discipline of frequently reminding myself that
I have a God who loves me
I have a God who reaches out
a God, who celebrates
each moment that I share with him.
I find the fatherhood of God hard work, but I think that it’s worth
the trouble…
theseoldshades I think it is really helpful to see God as a mother as well as father. Have you read Margaret hepplethwaite book “Motherhood of God”?, it’s great at looking at this idea. I often refer to God as she as well as he, sometimes to purposely annoy people:) but mostly because it is at times more fitting.
Comment by soniamain — November 7, 2009 @ 10:20 am
Caroline Too- sorry to hear your Dad was so hard on you, great that you can reimagine how God views you as a beautiful and wonderful person that he/she takes delight in.
Comment by soniamain — November 7, 2009 @ 10:23 am
got just about half way through, but think The Shack says some good things about fatherhood, will try and find it and read the rest
Actually I think it is wrong to call God she. Jesus always refered to God as He or Father and i think we should in this follow Jesus and therefore Gods way of ding it.
Does God have some motherly aspects of course he does as we are all made in his image male and female, however i think it is disrespectfull to call God she, purely as the entire bible calls him He when he is dojng spoken to or of.
Comment by beatthedrum — November 10, 2009 @ 3:52 pm
i couldn’t disagree more, btd. were the ot writers lacking respect when they talked of god in the female? i think not. and what of the holy spirit, is he a bloke too? given how patriarchal biblical culture is it is astonishing to have god referred to as ’she’. let’s not go back to the days when women were second class citizens and god could not possibly be described using a feminine metaphor.
I think the Biblical God, Jahweh, is quite masculine.
If I think of God as female, I get a totally different sense of God – and it’s fantastic! I feel totally different in relation to God when I envisage God as female. I feel validated and I wonder if that’s how men feel in Christianity.
What, your dad’s called John, Jon? Must have got confusing.
I’m afraid when people refer to God as Father in a particular type of sentence, it makes me feel physically sick. The sentence I mean is not when they are speaking to God, but referring to Him as Father, e.g. ‘I know that Father loves me.’ It’s exactly the same feeling I used to get when this posh bloke who’d never quite detached from his mother, would say to me, ‘Mother is coming to stay this week’, whereas most of us would say ‘My mother is…’. So I don’t actually think it has got anything to do with the word Father being used in relation to God.
Anyway, Jesus taught us to say ‘Our Father’ which I always think is a bit like ‘Our Liam’ or ‘Our Pat’.
Comment by Tiggy — November 6, 2009 @ 2:16 am
i like the thought of seeing our work as an engagement with God’s work
Comment by subo — November 6, 2009 @ 7:31 am
hey! my dad’s name was john too!
Also…believe it or not, both my brothers are also named john.
Comment by Laura — November 6, 2009 @ 8:08 am
I hope not cos my Dads dead.
Comment by dennis the mennis — November 6, 2009 @ 8:12 am
Im glad he is my father, and I often do speak of him as “Father”. It helps me connect to him as my relationshi my my earthly father was dreadfull until he died.
However he is a proper father who not only loves but disciplines in love to make us more like Jesus His other son.
But it is always good to look at our terminology
Comment by beatthedrum — November 6, 2009 @ 8:32 am
Is God my Mum? Hmmmm I think Joyce is quite a nice name for God.
Comment by gloriousthings — November 6, 2009 @ 8:47 am
#3 Laura, i don’t think i do believe you. How did you escape being called John?
This reminds me of the ‘God IS my rock’ stuff. What does that mean? God is cold, hard and erodes away over time?
Or is it rather that God only IS whichever metaphor you chose to the extent that that metaphor is effectively understood?
God IS my steering wheel.
Comment by andy amoss — November 6, 2009 @ 9:00 am
What another dear John story!
Comment by miriworm — November 6, 2009 @ 9:00 am
PS: He looks like JOHN Lennon.
Comment by miriworm — November 6, 2009 @ 9:01 am
Sorry to post twice.
I’d also be keen to hesitate a little about ‘God is my…’ anything, simply because of the ownership implied.
Comment by andy amoss — November 6, 2009 @ 9:02 am
Third time lucky?
Yes, God is my dad (Pete), God’s in our love and interaction. My dad is lit by a divine spark, covered in God’s finger prints, which, by the way, are completely indistinguishable and irremovable from the essence of who my dad is. And my mum. And you.
Let’s not forget too that Christ, in the story of the sheep and goats, identified himself entirely as the prisoner, the sick, the naked, the starving, the smack head, the assylum seeker, the mentally ill, the gay, the single parent etc etc
Comment by andy amoss — November 6, 2009 @ 9:20 am
I award cap man an ASBO for his goatee.
Comment by ED... (who blogs at Sincere Ignorance and Conscientious Stupidity) — November 6, 2009 @ 12:00 pm
I’ve had conversations with people who really struggle with the ‘God is your Father’ metaphor because they’ve had bad relationships with their dads and so ‘father’ to them is a source of abuse, hatred and despair not the love and grace of God. I think we always need to be aware of our terminology and how some ways we describe God are vastly unhelpful for a lot of people.
I was chatting to someone the other day and referred to God as ‘Father and Mother’ which didn’t go down well at all. Apparently God has revealed his divine self in male, father terms and it’s unbiblical, bordering on heretical to refer to him in female terms. Because, you know, all those times God calls him/herself a hen brooding over chicks, or a labouring woman, those are just metaphors, they don’t count. Sometimes people really annoy me. God is mother and father to me, male and female, s/he encompasses all human experience, not just male. Men do not have an exclusive claim on the language and love of God. I am not a second class religious citizen in God’s eyes because I am a woman and therefore s/he has nothing in common with me because he is MALE. Arghhhhh.
Sorry. Rant over- is it obvious I got annoyed?
Comment by theseoldshades — November 6, 2009 @ 12:19 pm
I’m son of a John too!
well said theseoldshades
Comment by themethatisme — November 6, 2009 @ 1:47 pm
I agree with you, theseoldshades.
I tend to focus more on the word ‘Our’ in ‘Our Father’…it reminds me that we are all God’s children.
Had a vicar once who felt he could define who was a child of God and who wasn’t…caused a lot of problems, as you can imagine. The ‘Our’ is important to me.
Comment by Will — November 6, 2009 @ 2:19 pm
Hey, theoldshades,
God is my mother too. God birthed me physically and spiritually. I understand myself to be physically made of his essence one way or another. And spiritually reborn by what he did for me not anything I did.
He nourishes and cares for me and comforts me – all maternal traits in our culture.
Comment by Allatsea — November 6, 2009 @ 3:36 pm
God isn’t my dad because he’s not visible or tangible and can’t give me a hug. I don’t need another absent father.
Comment by Tiggy — November 6, 2009 @ 4:22 pm
Ed (12). I can attest that “cap man” is a self-portrait of/by Jon, whose look for autumn ‘09 is very much the inter-war communist revolutionary! So the goatee is very ASBO by definition. Whereas “John” looks almost nothing like Jon’s Dad, even allowing for Jon’s reticence in drawing ears
Let’s face it, God is whatever you want him to be. If you want him to be a father(/mother) figure, he’ll be a father(/mother) figure. No problem!
Comment by JF — November 6, 2009 @ 4:54 pm
Oh, I thought he was going for the Bono look this Greenbelt.
Comment by Tiggy — November 6, 2009 @ 4:58 pm
definitely Edge from U2 !
Comment by Gordon — November 6, 2009 @ 7:22 pm
I believe he likened himself to Gandalf at one point! Clearly a man of many hats.
Comment by Tiggy — November 6, 2009 @ 7:28 pm
Hmmmm. My dad is also Robert – hense I have spelled it with a double b since being a teenager.
Comment by Robb — November 6, 2009 @ 7:34 pm
@18
I agree with you JF, our God can be anything we want him/her to be.
I’m enjoying Peter Rollins stuff at the mo. I particularly feel inpired by the idea of betraying your faith to remain faithful to it.
I like this. It lets God be God, whoever he/she is. And recognises our understanding/image of God is exactly that.
Comment by Allatsea — November 6, 2009 @ 11:17 pm
My dad’s called Ahmed
Comment by Tiggy — November 6, 2009 @ 11:20 pm
I’m fortunate and unfortunate
my dad didn’t yell at me, physically or sexually abuse me.
He did all he thought he could to give me a good start in life. I
have much to be grateful for.
but
he was also perenially disappointed in me, always
disapproving of me, always showing me up for the thoughtless,
unintelligent, lazy thing that he obviously thought me to be…
I had been teaching at a university for five years before I
finally worked out that I wasn’t as stupid as dad made me feel
Now…
I struggle with an image of God who is always disappointed with
me, who is always demanding more of me, who always makes clear that
I’m not good enough…
I know all that isn’t true, I know the words
but somehow the unlearned lessons of family life run much deeper
so speaking of God as father is a funny process for me: dangerous,
habit, conformity with churchiness but also a discipline of re-imagining
fatherhood in a different way, a discipline that might include forgiving dad…
a discipline of frequently reminding myself that
I have a God who loves me
I have a God who reaches out
a God, who celebrates
each moment that I share with him.
I find the fatherhood of God hard work, but I think that it’s worth
the trouble…
Comment by Caroline Too — November 7, 2009 @ 9:59 am
theseoldshades I think it is really helpful to see God as a mother as well as father. Have you read Margaret hepplethwaite book “Motherhood of God”?, it’s great at looking at this idea. I often refer to God as she as well as he, sometimes to purposely annoy people:) but mostly because it is at times more fitting.
Comment by soniamain — November 7, 2009 @ 10:20 am
Caroline Too- sorry to hear your Dad was so hard on you, great that you can reimagine how God views you as a beautiful and wonderful person that he/she takes delight in.
Comment by soniamain — November 7, 2009 @ 10:23 am
got just about half way through, but think The Shack says some good things about fatherhood, will try and find it and read the rest
Comment by subo — November 7, 2009 @ 8:10 pm
Actually I think it is wrong to call God she. Jesus always refered to God as He or Father and i think we should in this follow Jesus and therefore Gods way of ding it.
Does God have some motherly aspects of course he does as we are all made in his image male and female, however i think it is disrespectfull to call God she, purely as the entire bible calls him He when he is dojng spoken to or of.
Comment by beatthedrum — November 10, 2009 @ 3:52 pm
i couldn’t disagree more, btd. were the ot writers lacking respect when they talked of god in the female? i think not. and what of the holy spirit, is he a bloke too? given how patriarchal biblical culture is it is astonishing to have god referred to as ’she’. let’s not go back to the days when women were second class citizens and god could not possibly be described using a feminine metaphor.
Comment by jonbirch — November 10, 2009 @ 5:36 pm
God is referred to in the feminine in the old testament. We miss is in the english translation as we don’t have a gendered term for wisdom.
There are also other feminine images and metaphors in the old testament such as a hen mothering her chicks.
Comment by Robb — November 10, 2009 @ 6:53 pm
I think the Biblical God, Jahweh, is quite masculine.
If I think of God as female, I get a totally different sense of God – and it’s fantastic! I feel totally different in relation to God when I envisage God as female. I feel validated and I wonder if that’s how men feel in Christianity.
Comment by Tiggy — November 10, 2009 @ 7:48 pm