And in any case which institutional church? Weren’t there something like 14 different denominations represented at the cenotaph in London yesterday – a sad reflection of the lack of reconciliation all round. I’m sure I once read there are about 10 000 protestant denominations in the world.
I think all I can do is try to be as reconciled to all the institutional churches as I can and to all my fellow Christians so that I at least am not making things worse.
Focussing on what’s wrong with everyone else is much more fun, much easier, and totally my comfort zone, and I’m sure I’m not alone in that.
But even though I can see the plainly stupid, the arrogant, the misguided, the ridiculous in the institutional churches, I’m stupid, arrogant, misguided and ridiculous myself sometimes. So I must love them anyway even when they’re embarrassing.
Do you mean reconciled in an institutionally recognised way, or simply reconciled by virtue of the shared, broken, human way in which we seek to follow Christ?
John Calvin said some very wise words comparing the visible church (the institutional church you can see)and the invisible church (those people with a lving, active faith). All the visible church will some day be gathered in heaven and everyone will be surprised who is there and who is not.
Comment by rockingrev — November 9, 2009 @ 12:52 pm
Don’t know about me and The Church beinf all lovey-duvey but Kathy’s in getting prepper dor right knee replacement surgery.
Been waiting for this for some some time pain was growing and growing.
Handy dandy free net kiosk thing in waiting room – thanks MU!
Man pictured with an extra large bottle of JD, standing on a cliff just before meeting his end at the bottom, sadly if he’d been a few yards round the corner the local congregations might have been able to talk him out of his existential alienation
#12 – had they ventured out of their buildings they might have noticed a person in need and been able to put into practise all the stuff they sing passionately about and believe sincerely in.
Thanks Sophie
It went quite well.
Tonight at home it’s me, my studly cat, and her 2 petite felines. I may be outnumbered 3:1 by los gatos, but at least the gender odds are even!
Was really cool to be able to get on the net there and via Facebook let family all the way from her parents, son, and ex, in Kansas City to friends in the UK to relations who are missionaries in Kenya know Kathy is doing well.
Have any of us ever stopped to thank God and bless him for his generosity in giving us a creative spirit as he has so we might create thinigs like this internet?
I wonder – do we ever forget that being made “in his image” also means we have perception to see problems and/or opportunnities; imagination and ingenuity to create solutions; and will and ability to apply them?
The physicians, surgeons, nurses, lab techs, food service staff, hospital housekeeping staff: are they “created in his image” with a desire to contribute in their various skills and ways to the health and healing of others?
Sure, they’re in it to ‘pay their bills’ – but yet that can also be “in his image” as it is certainty that God provides what he needs for himself and his family.
Don’t know where this thought has been simmering all day but it sure popped out of the oven ready to go just now!
The institutional church can be trapped in religious beaurocracy that prevents is reflecting Christ fully.
Equally we can be trapped in unhelpful cynicism that stops us reflecting Christ fully!
I have a feeling that even if miracles were to happen, and the church were to change, some people would still hold onto the old stereotypes of the ‘institution’ for safety.
It does saddens me that sometimes here (despite the fact Jon’s cartoons always make me smile) people comment forgetting that their experience of ‘church’ is not necessarially typical, and many are doing great work in their local commuities.
Comment by youthworkerpete — November 10, 2009 @ 12:39 am
#12 Subo
I think he’s just been in one of those churches and that’s why he’s bought that large bottle of wine or maybe it was their communion wine and he nicked it.
I once had to leave a talk by some American evangelist at my church and go and spend some time with some real human beings. So I went in La Tasca and had a couple of glasses of sangria while chatting to the bar staff.
“Have any of us ever stopped to thank God and bless him for his generosity in giving us a creative spirit as he has so we might create things like this internet?”
“I wonder – do we ever forget that being made “in his image” also means we have perception to see problems and/or opportunities; imagination and ingenuity to create solutions; and will and ability to apply them?”
it felt extra exciting to read your thoughts on God’s revelation of his creativity, as have just been reading “Jung and the Story of Our Time”, by Laurens Van der Post. Laurens is eloquent on Jung’s excitement of God’s revelation in creation, in particular his awe of the landscape around his home lake (Switzerland)
it’s felt good to be reading this book, just found in someone else’s collection, because Laurens speaks of a freer, more creative world, where despite the destruction of war, men invented games, laughed and played wildly, it gave me a fresh perspective on the stress driven work life I lead
sometimes church and pub collide – beer and hymns anyone? men’s group pub night, 18-30 fair trade wine tasting – maybe it’s because we’re kinda high church anglicans….
ywp@17: I think you raise a good point and yes, lots of good stuff goes on; and yes, focussing on the negative is not always the best way of moving forward – at either personal or communal level. And I think we do sometimes get sucked into slightly negative cycles of comment
On the other hand, people can only describe what they themselves have experienced and the only story we can really tell is the one of our own journey, even if our perceptions of that might be somewhat distorted. I think that here, sometimes, the discussion provoked by Jon’s cartoons and the ensuing comments, challenges and support of contributors have helped people see things in a different and more positive perspective than they migh have begun from. And I value ASBO for making a space for that sort of possibility….
Is it Gods plan to have so many churches or is it mans?
Every stream of church or denomination I have seen or researched has come out of a move of god.. except maybe the CofE but that was political and touched by God.
So is it his plkan to have so many churches or ours?
Comment by beatthedrum — November 10, 2009 @ 3:48 pm
I remember the old advice given me as a teenager (when, of course church was dominated by fusty 50-or-so year olds)
erm, like me now
anyway, I was told that if I ever found the perfect church
Hey Subo, come over to Bath and we can drink Sangria together!
Was it on here someone was saying about how Martin Luther and his friends got drunk a lot to spite the devil or something? Didn’t quite understand that, but it improved my view of Luther.
If a pair of slippers gets too old they cease to be comfortable. I know, I’m wearing some. They’re almost in pieces. Looking forward to my new comfy slippers from eBay.
I’d go for the church with the gold top because I favour Byzantine architecture. We should have more of it.
[...] On God’s mission for the church: How and where do we start bridging the gulf, tearing down the walls, and reaching out to the unchurched? HT: Jon Birch’s ASBO Jesus [...]
hopefully not
Comment by laura — November 9, 2009 @ 3:03 am
In heaven – when you, me, and those comprising the institutional church will be perfect.
And beholding Jesus.
Yipeee!
Comment by Holiday Longing — November 9, 2009 @ 4:55 am
that is one large bottle of belgian kwak!! lol
Comment by dennis the mennis — November 9, 2009 @ 7:47 am
No.
And in any case which institutional church? Weren’t there something like 14 different denominations represented at the cenotaph in London yesterday – a sad reflection of the lack of reconciliation all round. I’m sure I once read there are about 10 000 protestant denominations in the world.
I think all I can do is try to be as reconciled to all the institutional churches as I can and to all my fellow Christians so that I at least am not making things worse.
Focussing on what’s wrong with everyone else is much more fun, much easier, and totally my comfort zone, and I’m sure I’m not alone in that.
But even though I can see the plainly stupid, the arrogant, the misguided, the ridiculous in the institutional churches, I’m stupid, arrogant, misguided and ridiculous myself sometimes. So I must love them anyway even when they’re embarrassing.
A bit like my biological family.
Comment by AnneDroid — November 9, 2009 @ 8:02 am
Is that a mosque..?
Comment by limpingandloved — November 9, 2009 @ 8:14 am
Do you mean reconciled in an institutionally recognised way, or simply reconciled by virtue of the shared, broken, human way in which we seek to follow Christ?
Comment by andy amoss — November 9, 2009 @ 8:44 am
is that a huge bottle of wine?
Comment by kelseyUD — November 9, 2009 @ 9:15 am
Probably when your instutionalised!
Comment by miriworm — November 9, 2009 @ 11:36 am
John Calvin said some very wise words comparing the visible church (the institutional church you can see)and the invisible church (those people with a lving, active faith). All the visible church will some day be gathered in heaven and everyone will be surprised who is there and who is not.
Comment by rockingrev — November 9, 2009 @ 12:52 pm
Don’t know about me and The Church beinf all lovey-duvey but Kathy’s in getting prepper dor right knee replacement surgery.
Been waiting for this for some some time pain was growing and growing.
Handy dandy free net kiosk thing in waiting room – thanks MU!
Comment by Forrest — November 9, 2009 @ 1:23 pm
What are the major differences? i.e. what would be necessary to resolve before they can be reconciled?
Comment by JF — November 9, 2009 @ 5:31 pm
Man pictured with an extra large bottle of JD, standing on a cliff just before meeting his end at the bottom, sadly if he’d been a few yards round the corner the local congregations might have been able to talk him out of his existential alienation
Comment by subo — November 9, 2009 @ 7:44 pm
#12 – had they ventured out of their buildings they might have noticed a person in need and been able to put into practise all the stuff they sing passionately about and believe sincerely in.
Comment by andy amoss — November 9, 2009 @ 8:46 pm
Hope Kathy’s op goes well, Forrest.
Comment by Sophie — November 9, 2009 @ 11:24 pm
Thanks Sophie
It went quite well.
Tonight at home it’s me, my studly cat, and her 2 petite felines. I may be outnumbered 3:1 by los gatos, but at least the gender odds are even!
Was really cool to be able to get on the net there and via Facebook let family all the way from her parents, son, and ex, in Kansas City to friends in the UK to relations who are missionaries in Kenya know Kathy is doing well.
Have any of us ever stopped to thank God and bless him for his generosity in giving us a creative spirit as he has so we might create thinigs like this internet?
I wonder – do we ever forget that being made “in his image” also means we have perception to see problems and/or opportunnities; imagination and ingenuity to create solutions; and will and ability to apply them?
The physicians, surgeons, nurses, lab techs, food service staff, hospital housekeeping staff: are they “created in his image” with a desire to contribute in their various skills and ways to the health and healing of others?
Sure, they’re in it to ‘pay their bills’ – but yet that can also be “in his image” as it is certainty that God provides what he needs for himself and his family.
Don’t know where this thought has been simmering all day but it sure popped out of the oven ready to go just now!
Comment by Forrest — November 9, 2009 @ 11:43 pm
Lets look at this the other way…..
The person I am closest to theologically…. ethically…
Lets…. erm she’s my wife….
She disagrees with me all the time. Unity doesn’t mean “being the same”!!
Comment by Robb — November 9, 2009 @ 11:59 pm
The institutional church can be trapped in religious beaurocracy that prevents is reflecting Christ fully.
Equally we can be trapped in unhelpful cynicism that stops us reflecting Christ fully!
I have a feeling that even if miracles were to happen, and the church were to change, some people would still hold onto the old stereotypes of the ‘institution’ for safety.
It does saddens me that sometimes here (despite the fact Jon’s cartoons always make me smile) people comment forgetting that their experience of ‘church’ is not necessarially typical, and many are doing great work in their local commuities.
Comment by youthworkerpete — November 10, 2009 @ 12:39 am
#12 Subo
I think he’s just been in one of those churches and that’s why he’s bought that large bottle of wine or maybe it was their communion wine and he nicked it.
I once had to leave a talk by some American evangelist at my church and go and spend some time with some real human beings. So I went in La Tasca and had a couple of glasses of sangria while chatting to the bar staff.
Comment by Tiggy — November 10, 2009 @ 1:27 am
nice stuff Forrest:-
“Have any of us ever stopped to thank God and bless him for his generosity in giving us a creative spirit as he has so we might create things like this internet?”
“I wonder – do we ever forget that being made “in his image” also means we have perception to see problems and/or opportunities; imagination and ingenuity to create solutions; and will and ability to apply them?”
it felt extra exciting to read your thoughts on God’s revelation of his creativity, as have just been reading “Jung and the Story of Our Time”, by Laurens Van der Post. Laurens is eloquent on Jung’s excitement of God’s revelation in creation, in particular his awe of the landscape around his home lake (Switzerland)
it’s felt good to be reading this book, just found in someone else’s collection, because Laurens speaks of a freer, more creative world, where despite the destruction of war, men invented games, laughed and played wildly, it gave me a fresh perspective on the stress driven work life I lead
Comment by subo — November 10, 2009 @ 9:16 am
“La Tasca and had a couple of glasses of sangria”
ah Tiggy. wish I’d been there with you, the sangria sounds mellow
a good pub often captures that human feeling so snugly – you’d be hard pressed to find a church as welcoming and affiming
yet we get the chance to be the welcoming, human, fun loving, creative pioneers in the 21st cent church
Comment by subo — November 10, 2009 @ 9:21 am
sometimes church and pub collide – beer and hymns anyone? men’s group pub night, 18-30 fair trade wine tasting – maybe it’s because we’re kinda high church anglicans….
Comment by Sophie — November 10, 2009 @ 10:35 am
Robb@ 16 – Couldn’t have put it better myself
ywp@17: I think you raise a good point and yes, lots of good stuff goes on; and yes, focussing on the negative is not always the best way of moving forward – at either personal or communal level. And I think we do sometimes get sucked into slightly negative cycles of comment
On the other hand, people can only describe what they themselves have experienced and the only story we can really tell is the one of our own journey, even if our perceptions of that might be somewhat distorted. I think that here, sometimes, the discussion provoked by Jon’s cartoons and the ensuing comments, challenges and support of contributors have helped people see things in a different and more positive perspective than they migh have begun from. And I value ASBO for making a space for that sort of possibility….
Comment by Pat — November 10, 2009 @ 11:39 am
cheers Sophie, it’s good when you have a church as comfortable as an old pair of slippers
and then there’s the ledgendary Dicky’s special christmas eve punch – that stuff opened up a few doors in my life!
Comment by subo — November 10, 2009 @ 2:03 pm
I guess that I’m wondering where grace would fit into that chasm…
suspect that anne droid pinned the detailed points behind that question in #4
Comment by Caroline Too — November 10, 2009 @ 3:48 pm
Is it Gods plan to have so many churches or is it mans?
Every stream of church or denomination I have seen or researched has come out of a move of god.. except maybe the CofE but that was political and touched by God.
So is it his plkan to have so many churches or ours?
Comment by beatthedrum — November 10, 2009 @ 3:48 pm
I remember the old advice given me as a teenager (when, of course church was dominated by fusty 50-or-so year olds)
erm, like me now
anyway, I was told that if I ever found the perfect church
I shouldn’t join it
because
I’d spoil it
still true all these years later sigh
Comment by Caroline Too — November 10, 2009 @ 3:50 pm
that’s it. Caroline Too, a guy trys to locate the perfect church through a telescope
Comment by subo — November 10, 2009 @ 7:00 pm
Hey Subo, come over to Bath and we can drink Sangria together!
Was it on here someone was saying about how Martin Luther and his friends got drunk a lot to spite the devil or something? Didn’t quite understand that, but it improved my view of Luther.
If a pair of slippers gets too old they cease to be comfortable. I know, I’m wearing some. They’re almost in pieces. Looking forward to my new comfy slippers from eBay.
I’d go for the church with the gold top because I favour Byzantine architecture. We should have more of it.
Comment by Tiggy — November 10, 2009 @ 7:38 pm
[...] On God’s mission for the church: How and where do we start bridging the gulf, tearing down the walls, and reaching out to the unchurched? HT: Jon Birch’s ASBO Jesus [...]
Pingback by Is God’s mission for the institutional church? « New Epistles — November 10, 2009 @ 9:22 pm
Just wondering…
Did anyone in the Bible ever “Go To Church?”
If not – Then how can you “Go To Church?”
Is there anything about “the Unchurched” in the Bible?
Does anybody know what the word “church” means?
Didn’t Jesus shed “His blood” for “His Church?” “His Body?”
Hmmm? A simple word, “church?”
What do most people understand
the word “church” to mean?
Building with a steeple on it?
Is that in the Bible?
Pastor in a pulpit preaching to people in pews?
Is that in the Bible?
That’s what the world thinks,
the unbeliever, isn’t it?
Isn’t that what the so called “local church”
has accomplished with four buildings on
four corners in a lot of “local towns?”
Haven’t we deceived the people
we’re supposed to be reaching out to?
Did Jesus shed His Blood for a denomination, an institution,
an organization, a business, a corporation?
Should we call a corporation”the Church?”
Comment by A. Amos Love — November 13, 2009 @ 5:19 pm