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About jonbirch

animator, illustrator, character designer, graphic designer. music producer/recording musician. co-owner of PROOST. proost.co.uk
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55 Responses to 995

  1. unexpected item in the bagging area …

  2. dgsinclair says:

    Nice. I do wish my church had a way to give online, like via paypal. Autodraft, anyone?

    10% off your tithe if you choose autodraft, lol.

    We already don’t pass the plate (I hate passing the plate), but thankfully have a nice giving box in the back with infrequent reminders from the pulpit.

    Regarding communion, we have a communion service coming up, and I have to admit, I hate communion. It feels so… religious and sacramental. I’d rather it was an actual meal. Also, since my church (rightly?) practices that non-believers should not take communion, it’s always fun for unbelieving visitors…NOT!

  3. Tiggy says:

    We have a buffet-style communion. You just go up and help yourself to bread and wine. That’s not such a good idea with some people. It’s quite tempting to take a huge slug of wine and I thought my friend was going to drink a whole glassfull after he fell off his motorbike on the way there. The bread is exceptionally nice and I have once or twice gone back for more. I much prefer it when communion is given to me by someone else. I don’t care who it is, but it seems important that it’s given rather than just taken.

    @dgsinclair I’ve never heard the word ‘sacramental’ used in a negative way before. We used to have a meal together on Friday evenings, just a few of us, but we also created a short ritual or ceremony to have – I think it was at the end of the meal – for the bread and wine. I have a meal with my church group but it’s not sacramental. I think the sacramental is an important part of being human.

  4. dgsinclair says:

    I meant sacramental in the sense of church ritual – baptism and communion are the only ‘sacraments’ of protestant churches. And the ceremony of communion somehow irks me. Not sure why.

  5. eh! Im pretty sure that Marriage is a Sacrament …

  6. goodfield says:

    Watchout someone will probably clone it! :-)

  7. Pat says:

    Looks like something out of the ‘Purpose Driven’ stable…..same sort of reductive, totally functional approach to people/things :-(

    one future I definitely don’t want to see realised.

  8. chris says:

    I like the intimacy of the passing of the plate, the bread that 12 other people have broken a chunk off before it gets to you, the wine glass with the germs wiped off with the bit of kleenex that is already a bit sodden by the time it’s your turn. It just flies in the face of our germaphobe culture and seems… familyish. Maybe i am old fashioned but i would take that over those tiny plastic cups and little styrofoamy bread-disks.

  9. Forrest says:

    Have been to churches with differing styles of communion and never analyzed or critiqued it: it was their choice made well before I moved in.

  10. markk says:

    “self service”? “communion”? my ears are bulging trying to fit both ideas in my head at the same time.

  11. wonderin says:

    Nooooooooooooooooo!

    (shudder)

  12. dgsinclair says:

    >> CHRIS: , the wine glass with the germs wiped off with the bit of kleenex that is already a bit sodden by the time it’s your turn

    You’re kidding? There are still churches that share the cup? Isn’t that how the black plague spread? ;)

    Seriously, that would be a serious health risk – I’ve *never* seen a church do that.

  13. dgsinclair says:

    >> PAT: Looks like something out of the ‘Purpose Driven’ stable

    Why does everyone feel compelled to diminish the Purpose Driven Life? I found the content, though imperfect, really helpful and biblical.

  14. dgsinclair says:

    >> DENNIS: eh! Im pretty sure that Marriage is a Sacrament …

    I guess it depends on whom you ask. Protestant/Lutheran teaching only includes Baptism and Communion, while Catholics have seven, adding
    – Marriage
    – Reconciliation (or confession and the forgiveness of sins)
    – Confirmation
    – Holy Orders (or ordination)
    – Anointing of the Sick (or last rites)

    See “Is Marriage a Sacrament?”
    http://www.godweb.org/marriageasacrament.htm

  15. jonbirch says:

    seriously dgs… you’ve not shared the cup?.. you’ve not lived! :-) you’ll not find an anglican church in all our land that doesn’t share the cup. the alcohol kills the germs and the cloth wipes the smears and everyone is in it together… no one person better than another, it works well symbolically. i have ( i confess with shame) winced when i’ve seen who was before me in the queue, until i remembered what it was all about and felt appalled at my behaviour.
    i’m with pat on ‘purpose driven’… being ‘driven’ never seems a good quality to me. people so easily come second when one is driven, even if one is driven to help people. i should probably elaborate, but i’m supposed to be tidying and sorting my work room and i’ve noticed that i am putting it off! wish me well! :-)

  16. dgsinclair says:

    >> JON: you’ll not find an anglican church in all our land that doesn’t share the cup. the alcohol kills the germs and the cloth wipes the smears and everyone is in it together…

    First, that seems just this side of being promiscuous – talk about unsafe sex! I’d call that unsafe communion. I seriously doubt very many Americans do that, but I may be wrong.

    I can say that very few, if any American Protestants share a cup at all, not only for health reasons, but for liability reasons. Also, most protestants no longer use alcoholic communion – in fact, since Prohibition in the 1920’s, we’ve all been using grape juice. Many, if not a majority of American Protestants are, at least officially, tea-totalers (non drinkers), and many churches just avoid alcohol in order to not offend those who feel it is not OK for a Christian to drink.

    In fact, our most popular grape juice, Welch’s, was created by a Methodist specifically as an ‘unfermented wine’ for churches.

  17. dgsinclair says:

    BTW, I’ve preached on and written posts on alcohol and Christians, in case anyone is interested.

    10 Biblical Points about Alcohol and Drinking
    audio http://www.wholereason.com/2009/09/the-biblical-perspective-on-drinking-and-alcohol.html

  18. dgsinclair says:

    >> JON: i’m with pat on ‘purpose driven’… being ‘driven’ never seems a good quality to me.

    I’m with you on that – in fact, we are to be people who are ‘called’ not ‘driven.’ Poor choice of words, for sure, but the content of the book is actually pretty fantastic. I think he chose that word because much of our business and success literature takes that tone – it’s very American to be ‘driven’ by your values. Go figure.

    A good book on being called instead of driven is Gordon MacDonald’s Ordering Your Private World

  19. dgsinclair says:

    Jon, i’ve got a few comments awaiting moderation – can you up the number of links to 3 before they get caught? :D

  20. Pat says:

    Daniel, it’s simplistic, trite and downright offensive in places. As for example in the poem by Russell Kelfer, approvingly quoted as summing up the fact that evrything about your life is pre-planned by God to make you who he wants you to be

    ‘The parents you had were the ones he chose,
    and no matter how you may feel,
    they were custom-designed with God’s plan in mind,
    And they bear the Master’s seal’

    so, if you were abused, you can console yourself with the thought that it was all for your best good.

    It encourages one to regard other people as objects in one’s faith journey – not as subjects with their own intrinsic worth and (‘Extra Grace Required’ people, put by God in our midst as ‘an opportunity for growth and a test of fellowship’ would be a pardigmmatic example of this). And actually, that’s pretty much the thrust of the whole book – Its reduction of people to objects (for both other people and for God himself) is, as far as I’m concerned, the antithesis of what the Gospel is about.

  21. jonbirch says:

    hey dgs… i feel the discipline of only using 2 or less links in a comment is good for you. :lol:

    hey pat… some cartoons there i feel… perhaps not very happy ones, but cartoons nonetheless.

  22. beckyw says:

    Our home group thought we’d try and figure out what communion is about/ should be like etc. as none of us really knew but didn’t feel satisfied by the passing of tiny plastic cups and plates of bread. So, we had a big meal together reading bits of the bible and books to try and work out what we were doing. I’m not sure we came to any conclusions really….still don’t quite get it. I get the remembering what Jesus has done, but I don’t get whether the way we do it bothers him, irks him, pleases him, or is just OK cos it’s a way we’ve figured to remember what he did/ does for us.

  23. dgsinclair says:

    >> JON: hey dgs – i feel the discipline of only using 2 or less links in a comment is good for you.

    You know the workaround for that – more individual posts ;) Don’t ban me!

    >> PAT: And actually, that’s pretty much the thrust of the whole book – Its reduction of people to objects (for both other people and for God himself) is, as far as I’m concerned, the antithesis of what the Gospel is about.

    I see your point, but funny, I just skipped over those parts, since most books written for popular consumption are filled with copious and odious personal stories, trite witticisms, and some measure of watered down doctrine.

    HOWEVER, I think the two pillars of the PDL book, that of the Hierarchy of Purpose (Worship, Fellowship, Discipleship, Ministry, and Mission) and the SHAPE principle, a needed corrective for the paranoid and myopic ignoring of our own gifts and talents in light of a “just focus on Jesus not yourself” imbalance is a needed corrective.

    I think those two constructs are VERY useful.

  24. linus says:

    haha, love the cartoon, but wouldn’t you need to get the dude with the override card to come and swipe the wine through each time anyway?

    Tiggy – yeah, its all about giving and sharing, and receiving. Not taking. You have to be in a position of power to take, whereas communion tells us we are in a position of weakness and need, and Jesus is giving us grace. Its also about agreeing together as a community and serving one another.

    “Come to this table not because you must, but because you may, not because you are strong, but because you are weak. Come, not because any goodness of your own gives you a right to come, but because you need mercy and help. Come because you love the Lord a little and would like to love him more. Come, because He loved you and gave Himself for you. Come and meet the Risen Christ, for we are His Body.”

    I have heard these words many times, and they have often comforted me in the midst of the angst that communion usually provokes in me (do i really believe this stuff? should i decline communion? where am i at with God anyway? etc) i like that these words emphasise grace and focus us on God and a desire to seek God, rather than on ourselves.

    dgs – i’d rather it was an actual meal too (not just cos i’m an awful cook and i like free food!), and i love that the church you’re part of doesn’t have an offering – nothing says “we are providing a service that you are expected to pay for” quite like handing round the bags. It induces a lot of unneccesary guilt, and it just re-inforces the despicable idea in our society that your value is equal to your wealth, which is awful. Much better to use alternative methods to allow those who want to provide for the financial needs and giving of the community to do so.

    Its interesting the cultural differences there about alcohol and germs. I reckon exposure to a few germs is good for you – builds your immune system. Who said communion was supposed to be safe, anyway? And aren’t we supposed to “share everything”? including germs?

    Re sacraments: ‘The Anglican Book of Common Prayer speaks of them as “an outward and visible sign of an inward and invisible Grace.” ‘ – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrament. I think thats a good definition.

  25. dgsinclair says:

    Oh, and Jon, it’s ONE link. Two links gets me caught in moderation, I believe.

  26. jonbirch says:

    okay dgs… heaven help me, but i’ve upped it to 2… :-) but the deal is, if you use more than two i don’t rescue you from the bin. :lol:

    linus… that definition of sacrament says it well i think.

  27. jonbirch says:

    on the subject of books… christian books… how to best be a christian type books… aren’t there just too many of them? i ignore them these days.

  28. dgsinclair says:

    Ecc. 12:12
    But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body.

    I promise to contain myself and not abuse your generosity. If you have problems with real spam, of course, feel free to change it back. And thank you.

  29. jonbirch says:

    you’re welcome, dgs… i will keep an eye on spam though. :-)

  30. jonbirch says:

    beckyw… i grew up in the baptist church… little cubes of bread and teeny tiny individual shot glasses, filled with non alcoholic communion wine. i’m not completely sure it captured the spirit of jesus at the last supper and what he meant. what he meant of course has been debated down the centuries and practiced in many different ways in different traditions. there seems a big gulf between the way the orthodox treat communion, ie. central to the whole liturgy, where body and blood are taken to mean just that, (subtly different to the catholic mass so far as i can see, in that rather than a ‘transubstantiation’ they seem to take the ‘holy mystery’ approach… in the ritual, bread and wine is body and blood) and what i grew up with, which was bread and wine are symbols.
    but i can’t help thinking that jesus in saying ‘that as often as you eat and drink together remember me’ is referring to the ritual of the meal, the time when we all sit down together. the ritual that was how people ate then and still often do now. not sure how that fits in to a world of tv dinners mind you. :-)
    of course, i could be wrong, i very often am. but i’m not sure jesus intended to set up a whole new ritual, rather to make his sacrifice central to a ritual that was already in the culture. i can think of many people i know completely disagreeing with me on this… but there y’go. we agree on lots of other stuff. :-)

  31. laura says:

    The church I go to most often does a sort of “self serve communion” where everyone just goes up and dunks a hunk of bread in the juice (not wine because there’s folks there that aren’t able to deal with the alcohol). That practice, of dunking the bread, grosses me out so much I almost can’t do it for some reason.
    I much prefer the practice of the Anglican church I some times attend which uses a common cup, which is actually not a practice that is banned in America. Many more liturgical type churches use that method.

  32. Pat says:

    Daniel – yes of course one can skip the twee sories and sickly, trite calendar-speak aphorisms (though that removes a sizeable portion of the book :-) ); but for me, the foundational premises of his approach mean that the book’s content inhabits the spectrum of distorted through to downright destructive. And the poem quoted captures part of that foundation pretty well. But even if it were not so, and this were jst a little sideshoot which one could ignore with out that affecting the rest of the book’s ‘arguments’, how could any christian author feel that putting the sort of stuff which is implied here ….crudely expressed that whatever your parents do to you is ok….because it’s all part of God’s pre-ordained plan to make you into the ‘perfect person’ he has decreed you to be, is an acceptable doctrine to propound? Last time I looked, abuse by divine fiat was not part of the Gospel.

    Sorry if I sound harsh but the implications of this chapter, when its message is taken through to its logical conclusion are just grotesque. And far from being just a little blemish hidden away somewhere which one can conveniently skip,this is actually the opening chapter of the book (‘It all starts with God’)…the foundation on which the whole edifice is constructed.

  33. linus says:

    jon, re tv dinners – “as often as you sit down in front of the tv, think of me”?

  34. chris says:

    @ linus, i could way too easily imagine that being incorporated into some new “relevant” christian book.

  35. chris says:

    “as often as you sit down in front of the tv, think of me”?

    – also, it reminds me of this:

  36. Catriona says:

    Great cartoon. Love the ideas of the need of the over-ride card holding ‘dude’ to get the wine and the ‘unepxected item in the bagging area.’ Maybe it should also say ‘select payment type’ for the offertery??? I can see a whole ‘self- checkout’ service here! :-)

  37. dgsinclair says:

    >> JON: i’m not sure jesus intended to set up a whole new ritual, rather to make his sacrifice central to a ritual that was already in the culture.

    This is my suspicion, which is another reason that I feel skeeved by communion rites.

    >> PAT: ,this is actually the opening chapter of the book (‘It all starts with God’)

    I do think you are being overly negative about it, and missing the signifincant good that has come of the book – not only are people being moved along the path from selfish, purpose driven people to worship, fellowship, discipleship, and then onto maturity in mission and ministry, but putting God first is a good thing.

    Funny though, I felt uncomfortable with the “it’s all about God” introduction, which seems like an uncomfortable and unbalanced bone thrown to fundies before he pretty much dives into a book where the emphasis is on self development.

    Not that self-development is wrong, in fact, it’s been ignored by the ‘just focus on Jesus’ myopia of inhuman religiosity, but I always felt like that “it’s all about God” opening was incongruous with the rest of the book.

  38. dgsinclair says:

    >> JON: but i can’t help thinking that jesus in saying ‘that as often as you eat and drink together remember me’ is referring to the ritual of the meal, the time when we all sit down together.

    Jon, I could not agree more, thank you for putting that into words for me. In fact, we have our quarterly communion service coming up, and I am stressed out about it – when our pastoral staff met to do the preaching schedule, I told them I could not officiate that service. It just seems wrong to me. Sigh.

  39. Pat says:

    Daniel, I think you are ascribing a different meaning to ‘putting God first’ than the one I am critiquing here and which forms the backbone of his book’s rather instrumental view of things. A consideration of the chapter titles is instructive in that regard perhaps.

  40. Ros says:

    This cartoon made me smile. :)

    I thought the point of communion was fellowship and sharing food, but I may have got the wrong end of the stick so ignore me.

  41. Tiggy says:

    America became neurotic about germs in the fifties and created rather sterile environments at that time. I think they are a bit neurotic about germs, but I do have to bear in mind that many Americans live in a much hotter place than I do, though most likely air-conditioned. My friend from New Mexico was shocked that I wasn’t going to put what was left of the dinner into the fridge overnight but just left it covered on the hob. Sometimes I do, but it doesn’t seem to matter much. Exposure to germs in childhood is actually very important to buidling up the immune system.

    At one church I go to they just dip the wafer into the non-alcoholic wine. They do this because there may be people there with compromised immune systems – I think they mean HIV as it’s a church that was set up for LGBT people. It’s not done to prevent other people getting germs, but to prevent people with HIV getting germs.

    I always thought those little individual Baptist ‘shot’ sized glasses had sherry in them.

    Most people I know who have read that ‘Purpose Driven’ book have found it to be dreadful. I don’t think Europeans like the idea of being driven and personally I view most drivenness as a form of neurosis as I see compulsions coming from childhood attempts at protecting ourselves. Finding a sense of purpose is good, but not feeling driven by it.

  42. Hazel says:

    “I always thought those little individual Baptist ‘shot’ sized glasses had sherry in them”. I wish, Tiggy!
    I am with Jon on his last point above – I’ve had different forms of communion in my time but the inky dinky now plastic “glasses” – which get recycled by the way – with some form of non alcoholic “communion wine” like diluted ribena (which comes in a container that looks like you’d get white spirit in) are a bit silly.
    I knew the bit about the alchohol supposed to kill the germs. Which is why on the rare occasion (usually Good Friday) my church does “common cup” (non-alcoholic) it is truly mingin’ (a good Glasgwegian word!) and I do not participate! Also having been at an Anglican church recently, it makes me laugh that they consecrate (too much) wine (alcoholic) then the archdeacon, or whoever he may be, has to swig it all down along with the remaining consecrated bread. What happens if it’s a “multi-parish” church and he’s got to turn up and do that several times on a Sunday morning – how does he get home? ;-)
    dgsinclair – how come he posts so many times before people have even answered. Haven’t read the link about alcohol but no doubt he belongs to the school of thought where Jesus turned water into wine at the wedding in Cana and then said “But don’t drink it, I was only showing off!” They weren’t all sitting round having a flans and fruit juice party like so many dreadful church “dos” today were they.

  43. dgsinclair says:

    >> TIGGY: America became neurotic about germs in the fifties and created rather sterile environments at that time.

    With 1/4 teens having herpes, maybe it’s warranted. The flu kills a lot of people here every year as well. But we are too sanitary sometimes – i remember reading a report that our kids’ immune systems are weak because they don’t come into contact with enough minor microbes to build their system.

    >> TIG: My friend from New Mexico was shocked that I wasn�t going to put what was left of the dinner into the fridge overnight but just left it covered on the hob.

    Yeah, my wife will leave soup or beans or food out o/n, and I’ve gotten used to it, but it took a while for me to adjust. My wife is from Mexico.

    >> TIG: I always thought those little individual Baptist �shot� sized glasses had sherry in them.

    That certainly WOULD be nice.

    >> TIG: I don�t think Europeans like the idea of being driven and personally I view most drivenness as a form of neurosis as I see compulsions coming from childhood attempts at protecting ourselves. Finding a sense of purpose is good, but not feeling driven by it.

    I agree, but to defend it, in the American culture, being an entrepreneur, self-motivated, and focused, i.e. ‘driven,’ is part of our hard work and accmoplishment idolatry. Not that the church should play into idolatry, but the phrase ‘driven’ has a positive connotation here – one of passion, dedication to excellence, and persistence.

    So it was probably used more as a marketing term, communicating in terms understood by the modern culture, not used to perpetuate the neurotic drivenness of our overcommitted success culture. And of course, the book, if I remember, does make clear that our values and life need to be ‘driven’ by the ‘call’ of God. Again, not that clear, but what do you expect for a mass market book?

  44. dgsinclair says:

    >> HAZ: how come he posts so many times before people have even answered.

    I just have many answers to one of the previous questions, and also, I predict objections and try to head them off ;)

    >> HAZ: Haven’t read the link about alcohol but no doubt he belongs to the school of thought where Jesus turned water into wine at the wedding in Cana and then said “But don’t drink it, I was only showing off!” They weren’t all sitting round having a flans and fruit juice party like so many dreadful church ‘dos’ today were they.

    BZZT! Wrong! I am not a tea totaler, and neither is scripture. You should read it and then comment.

  45. dgsinclair says:

    But that reminds me of a joke?

    Q: Why do you always invite two Baptists to go fishing with you?

    Q: Because if you invite one, he will drink all of your beer, but if you invite two, neither will drink.

  46. Tiggy says:

    It’s tee-totaller, nothing to do with only drinking tea.

    Yeah I was thinking more of all that sterility and clinicalness that came in then with the phobia about germs and somehow it all ties in with the Dr. Spock thing in relation to bringing up children in a very clinical manner.. It was also the time when people were getting kitchen appliances for the first time – I’m sure that was part of it as well.

    ‘hard work and accmoplishment idolatry’

    That’s a defence? I prefer to be inspired rather than driven – as motivation goes it’s a lot more healthy, though you can’t always sit around waiting for inspiration. Another thing that motivates me is my commitment to people to do something on time and to do it well – I like to help people and I’m always pleasantly surprised when I get paid for it as well. Currently I’m feeling motivated by the need to make my life more organised. I bought a special ‘Note to Self’ pad to write things down on so I didn’t forget them and now I seem to have lost it. I did actually once buy a book called ‘How to organise your life’ and that same afternoon I left it in a toilet at a cafe and it was gone when I went back. I’ve also lost my copy of ‘Organising for Creative People’. Ithink I lent it to a similarly disorganised, I mean ‘creative’ friend several years ago – bad move! My plan is to move to Morocco and lounge around sipping cocktails by the pool.

  47. Tiggy says:

    Usually one of the older choir boys finishes up the wine – they’re keen to volunteer. You need the wine to finish up all those dry left-over wafers or you’d choke.

    Call me middle-class, but sometimes I think cheese and wine would be a better idea.

  48. dgsinclair says:

    >>TIG: ‘hard work and accmoplishment idolatry’…That’s a defence?

    Well, I was just defending his use of the word ‘driven’ and the positive connotations it has in secular culture – not the idea of being driven itself – we agree on the superiority of being called and inspired. The book itself was not really about being driven, just motivated and focused.

    As I mentioned previously, Gordon MacDonald’s “Ordering Your Private World’ is one of the 10 best books I’ve read, and it focuses on being called, not driven.

    >> TIG: though you can’t always sit around waiting for inspiration.

    Yes, my motto for this year is “if you can’t get inspired, get angry” – but that’s a whole other theological discussion.

    >> TIG: Call me middle-class, but sometimes I think cheese and wine would be a better idea.

    You mean, “and Jesus cut the cheese and said, eat…” ???? >:)

  49. dgsinclair says:

    re: tee – totaller, all i can say is “oohhhhhh!” and “dohhh!”

  50. Tiggy says:

    The author should be challenging the culture though, not buying into it. I think if someone feels ‘called’ to do something it can often put even more pressure on them. People sometimes get their vocation quite wrong. I was thinking of inspiration more in the nature of shorter moments of time and specific individual actions, like I can get inspired proofreading. If that happens a lot, I suppose I can say it’s my vocation but I don’t feel God is calling me to be a proofreader – or at least I don’t think of it in those terms. I just do it cos I enjoy it, I’m good at it, I can do it in my pyjamas and I don’t have to get out of bed early. I do other things as well.

    Lol – I like that, the breaking of the cheese. Who moved my cheese?

  51. linus says:

    but jesus is a working class northerner, innit, so it should be a gregg’s pasty and a can of stella, right?

    Ros – far from ignoring you, i think you’re right on the money there – don’t be so down on yourself! =]

    Tiggy, your travails with organisational aids made me smile – we’re kindred spirits in that regard.

    dgs – I think sometimes i tend towards getting depressed about things that it would be healthier to get angry about. Not sure where to go with that, just seemed worth saying off the back of your remark.

  52. dgsinclair says:

    TIG – you do know that the phrase ‘cut the cheese’ in American culture means ‘fart’, right?

    LINUS > someone wise once said “depression is anger turned inwards”

  53. Tiggy says:

    @dgsinclair Ugh, no I didn’t know that. Surprisingly, never heard it from any of my US friends.

    True about the depression being anger turned inwards, but anger can be just as uncomfortable unless you can do something with it – preferably something positive.

  54. jonbirch says:

    i’m sorry to say i did know what ‘cut the cheese’ meant, but didn’t know it was an americanism. my friend used to use the expression at school. eg.. ‘ugh… who cut the cheese?!’… nice. :roll:

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