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Yuck.
People together innit. None of this club crap.
Nope, not what he said to Peter at all.
Brilliant.
Well – did the historical Jesus say “church” at all?? Or were these words created (under the Spirit?) by the writer of Matthew/the Q tradition? So, perhaps, did the ‘church’ say these words………?
what would he have said instead?
I dunno, maybe something like, “Hey you guys, anyone have an under-utilized institution they could loan out for a couple centuries, got a start-up venture I wanna build which it mike might make a usable foundation for”?
Err, hate the thing not letting you go back and fix typos.
i dont think the “church” we have today is all bad. its not perfect, but its not all bad.
Bit more than just the ‘church’ mentioned you know so what about the rest of it?.Poor old heaven me thinks!
Matthew 16:17-19
New International Version (NIV)
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
Never really got that whole binding and loosening thing? Like is Jesus saying whatever you decide on Earth I’m cool with that?
Don’t get it to be honest.. anyone care to share something I’m obviously missing?
great cartoon and conversation folks
ChrisB, I think some of these statements work on many levels, and that there’s not just one meaning
for instance George MacLeod (founder of the Iona Community) wrote “Take us outside, O Christ, outside holiness, outside to where soldiers curse and nations clash at the crossroads of the world.” resonates with a hunger I have to find God in difficult places, and when I read about the events in Norway, I’m so glad to have the Iona Community, with it’s exuberance for life, it’s big hearted inclusion, it’s capacity to enable meetings across cultures
so I feel George set loose a fab party where the dancing’s still going on
In my own life I’ve had to face up to the destructive ways of relating learned from my family, where about 4 generations ago drinking caused so much heartache, in a sense, by trying to diminish the power of the ‘worrying’ I learnt, I’m binding something – not allowing denial to cover up the pain, or lies to masquerade as truth
for me, Christ is still building his church, enjoying being with those who love him, crafting us into his beautiful purpose. Knowing Christ’s generosity and sense of fun, helps me check out what’s might be his will – unloosening
I do also at times see these terms as part of a spiritual conflict, where forces we don’t understand alienate people from each other, had have at times prayed against a ‘false power’, asking for a separation, – with unexpected effects
does that make any sense?, oh well, I had a stab.
I know christians often remind themselves of the fact that the church is the body of people, not the building. For me, though, it’s the old buildings that hold all the attraction! From the cathedrals of major European cities I have been lucky enough to visit, right down to parish churches in Laverton and Lullington which I visited while out walking last Sunday… I derive so much pleasure from them all. So: blessed are the churchbuilders of yore!
good point JF, I love some old church buildings, sometimes there’s a real sense of the community working together, carving all those little angle’s +, a window into a people shaped world
dawn… you’re right, it’s not all bad.
jf… me too. the old architecture, the names on memorials, stained glass, graveyards, as pieces of social history and aesthetic objects i love ‘em. great for weddings and funerals too.
y’know I think we’ve been misreading this all these years. I’m not convinced the ‘this’ referred to was supposed to be Peter.
joe… interesting. please explain.
was a time when the church institution employed and patronised the best art, craft, architecture, musicians and composers… no longer… all history now… fortunately, i like history.
Well we assume that the rock on which the church was to be built was Peter. I think it is more likely to be the phrase “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God” (Matthew 16:16) which immediately comes before it in the conversation.
Joe T – Nice idea but why the ‘And I tell you that you are Peter’ in verse 18 and all of verse 19 in that case?
Mmm. well, clearly elsewhere Jesus spoke of the rock in other terms than the person of Peter (eg Luke 6:47). And I think now it is a stretch to believe that Jesus was speaking of Peter as the rock, especially given Matthew 16:23. Perhaps Peter was named as a reminder of what the church was to be built on rather than giving Peter a special role.
JT don’t really see what your getting at by the Luke 6:47 reference as I see no mention of ‘rock’ but I still like your idea as a possibility.
Sorry, my mistake I meant Luke 6:47 (house built on the rock).
Agg. I’ll get it right this time: Luke 6:48 (actually the section of Luke 6: 46-48 is talking about the life built on strong foundations (the rock) – and I think you’d be hard pressed to argue that he is talking about Peter).
Interesting Cartoon given the language used by the by the General Secretary in his report to the Methodist Conference this year.
He was asking questions about the Methodist ‘Church’ and the Methodist ‘Movement’