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About jonbirch

animator, illustrator, character designer, graphic designer. music producer/recording musician. co-owner of PROOST. proost.co.uk
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71 Responses to 747

  1. Tiggy says:

    I love the fact the ‘gay demon’ is pink!

  2. fergie says:

    so how is he ok now… he’s preoccupied by having a woman now. Shouldn’t he be thinking about Jesus now?


  3. Tiggy says:

    He’s got to prove to himself that he’s hetero before the effects of the exorcism wear off.

    I can’t decide whether to go to the gay church or the straight one tomorrow morning.

  4. Forrest says:

    hey, fergie knows maukie!

    Riiiiight, and they are setting up as the implication of this is that in their view every sin would have to be because there’s a demon in you.
    Uh huh.

  5. dennis says:

    This reminds me of a Leadership meeting I was at once, eww it scared me for life!

  6. Miriworm says:

    #2 Isn’t that a bit gay! :-D

  7. JF says:

    Among homophobic Christians, which comes first, the homophobia or the Christianity?

  8. Forrest says:

    Oooo, JF cuts to the heart of the matter with surgical precision.

  9. Darren says:

    ‘better the devil you know’
    another classsic, thanks Jon

  10. Tiggy says:

    Hey, why are your cartoons always about MALE homosexuals? What about the demon of lesbianism – or is that just TOO sexy! :-)

  11. jonbirch says:

    thanks darren. :-)

    tiggy… i think the last one i did was a woman in a bath. :-)

    jf… homophobia would be my guess. often church simply reflects the culture it is born in and the text is used back up what you already think. i’ve never personally experienced people converting to homophobia, however i have seen christians change their minds and become more appreciative and accepting of difference.

  12. kls says:

    talk to the hand? :D :D

  13. Tiggy says:

    But was it a lesbian woman in the bath?

  14. jonbirch says:

    she was indeed.

  15. Tiggy says:

    Well I hope her vibrator was waterproof.

  16. Angela says:

    This cartoon makes me feel so sad. Violent people who abuse other people and no way out. So very sad Can’t put it in better words – Someone hurt you Jon?

  17. jonbirch says:

    nope… not been hurt like the man in the cartoon, angela. i just know there are those who have and it makes my blood boil. there are those it seems who’ll never be happy until everyone else conforms to their way of being. sad. :-(

  18. JF says:

    Jon. Your last comment has additional significance if the full stop after the word “being” is removed. Given that robb says “proselytising” is a dirty word, maybe I’ll be kinder and call it “missionary work”. :-)

  19. Tiggy says:

    Getting everyone to conform to the missionary position?

  20. Tiggy says:

    Someone came to our church once when I was a teenager to give a talk on Missionary work and he kept referring to the ‘Missionary position’. I couldn’t believe it. I thought that kind of thing only happened in old comedy sketches. He must have seen us trying not to laugh.

    It would be interesting in that cartoon if they’d made a mistake and the person they thought was a male homosexual was actually a woman. We used to have a French friend who had to use the men’s public toilets because she looked so much like a man.

  21. Laura says:

    Posted on wrong thread so reposting Off topic, but wondering if anyone near Bristol wants to go see the bansky exhibit on weds or Thursday. In country this week and would love to meet up.
    Will check back here

  22. Tiggy says:

    Darn, now I have to repost MY one on this thread.

    Where are you based Laura? I would love to go and see it, but I live in Bath and can’t see me getting to Bristol on my own. I know that sounds pathetic, but I know what I’m like – rather travel phobic. I have to be accompanied, like a child. And this is someone who’s travelled to India and the US by herself, but I’ve had a lot of stress lately.

  23. Robb says:

    Jon – “jf… homophobia would be my guess. often church simply reflects the culture it is born in and the text is used back up what you already think. I’ve never personally experienced people converting to homophobia, however i have seen Christians change their minds and become more appreciative and accepting of difference.”

    I feel bad about being a….. well human really. We spend so much time doing this with whatever our issues are. We force out way of being upon everyone we meet! When we let that become part of our faith it becomes much worse as we are projecting [good psychology word, Ruth would be proud!] onto others!

    As I sit here in my office I am surrounded by bibles (not showing off – everyone gives you one!!) and I can use them to support or destroy all sorts of things. When taken as a whole it becomes a massive thing as there is a metanarrative that runs throughout about how [expletive deleted] fan[expletive deleted]tastic God is!!

    From a purely experiential point of view, I have a gay friend who is setting up an orphanage in Zimbabwe. He is doing it because he is doing what Jesus tell him.

    That affects me profoundly!

  24. jonbirch says:

    exactly robb… and now i’m off to youtube to see if there is a movie of tricky performing ‘council estate’ live and then off to bed. night night. :-)

  25. Tiggy says:

    Ricki Martin took a year or so out from his career to work with children in underdeveloped countries. I don’t know if he’s gay or not, but I’ve always thought he was lovely and the men I fancy usually turn out to be gay. That’s the danger of liking pretty men, so I may as well just like pretty women.

  26. Angela says:

    As far as I know Jesus doesn’t act like this, he didn’t in my life.

    And that’s such a comfort, a reason for joy.

  27. JF says:

    Hey robb (24) – but no more profound because he’s gay, right?

    Will the children in the orphanage receive Christian teaching as they grow up? If so… is that right?

    And how did your friend know what Jesus was telling him?

  28. beatthedrum says:

    I have lately been discusing this issue on my blog at http://beatthedrum.wordpress.com/2009/06/15/he%e2%80%99s-gay-so-what/

    I am often seen as a funda(MENTALIST) christian but the whole Homosexuality is demonic thing gets my goat, personally I think for some its choice for others it CAN BE demonic (but rarely) often it is genetic.

    What annoys me more is that we dont treat hetrosexuals this way. Yes now and agaion I have seen a spirit of lust or porn being cast out of a person, but rarely would we look for the demonic in someone who is say sleeping with their girlfriend or even touching her up. This is seen as being natural, and homosexual as not natural. For me it is in nature as well as in human nature therefore it is natuarl. This is NO different from Homosexual sex in the eyes of God, yet me demonise one not the other.

    Double standards again. (having said that they are both sinful)

    What is sad in this picture is that the chap is going from one form of sexual sin to another….

  29. Robb says:


    1) Nope.

    2) No idea. Probably not. Not that kind of churchpersonship.

    3) Probably by living in a monestary and hearing people reading the bible 5 times a day at him.

  30. subo says:

    these kinds of activities belong in a sific movie, where the goodies and the badies are clearly defined

    – talking of Zapping people, has anyone seen ‘Hangover’?

  31. subo says:

    Hi Laura

    would love to do the Banksy, just working flat our wed / thur

    have a fab time

  32. Forrest says:

    #29, beatthedrum,you make a great point there.

    perhaps we should cast the spirits of extremism and over-the-top-theatricality out of some of the fundies?

  33. Robb says:

    Or the spirit of consumerism.

    I’m not very touchy feely. I have friends who are. “it didn’t feel right” and all that Jazz. Perhaps I spent too much time as a teenager hanging out with re-enacters and role players to be freeked out by that type of stuff.

    Or it could be that I still hang out with them now.


    Matthew 8:28-34

    And when he came to the other side, to the country of the Gadarenes, two demoniacs met him, coming out of the tombs, so fierce that no one could pass that way.

    And behold, they cried out, “What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?”

    And Jesus freaked out and ran around like a headless chicken saying “quick ring the vicar he’ll know what to do”.


    I think the boss may be in charge of this one………

  34. JF says:

    Robb (30) point 3… Yep, that would definitely do it. Can people hear Jesus without going to all that bother though?

    BTD (29) “… they are both sinful”… what are the ‘both’?

  35. beatthedrum says:

    Hetrosexual sex outside of marriage and homosexual sex

  36. Robb says:

    JF: Depends on how touchy feely they are. See 34 :lol:

  37. JF says:

    BTD – I feared that is what you meant. I am at a loss for words right now (but I’m sure I’ll be back).

    Robb I feel after all this time I am beginning to appreciate your humour.

  38. Robb says:

    JF – excellent :D

    My work here is done.

  39. jonbirch says:

    i have to agree with jf. homesexuality = sin is not true.

    hmmmm… robb has a sense of humour!!? :lol:

  40. Tiggy says:

    That’s pretty contradictory of you, Beat the Drum. How can homosexuals have sex INSIDE marriage?

    Anyway, it’s ridiculous now that we don’t have arranged marriages at puberty. You can’t expect people to go a large part of their lives without sex – it’s unhealthy, I should know! It could take a lifetime to find the right person and maybe never. Even Evangelicals and charismatics have sex before marriage.

  41. Robb says:

    I have two seconds so this won’t be complete enough….

    Marriage as we know it is a modern concept. It only used to happen to the very rich in days of yor. Marriage was “I slept with you and we live in the same house so we are married” for everyone else who didn’t get to call themselves “Lord Masterful” or “Lady Herindoors”*.

    What is a sin is sleeping around with multiple partners willy nilly.

    *I could be dickins!!

  42. beatthedrum says:

    Homosexuality does NOT EQUAL sin I did not say that :-P

    What I did say or at least ment to say was Homosexual sexual relationships are sinfull, I think the Word of God is VERY CLEAR on that score.

    But i think it is also clear on the fact the hetrosexual sex outside of marriage is sinfull so there is no differece between the two.

  43. Tiggy says:

    Sinfull?? FULL of sin, or just a tad? I can think of a lot more things that are FULL of sin than a loving relationship with another human being that doesn’t depend on their plumbing.

  44. Laura says:

    sorry twiggy, i’m getting a lift in to bristol from a friend. i’m pretty much on my own for transport as well.

    subo- too bad you’re going to be working :-(

    next time i need to make arrangements ahead of time. this time over i’ve pretty much been utterly spontaneous for some reason.

  45. Tiggy says:

    That’s okay, but my name isn’t ‘Twiggy’! I’m painfully untwiglike.

  46. Laura says:


  47. jonbirch says:

    btd… some of the things you are ‘very clear’ on seem utterly clear the other way to me, particularly in the light of jesus.

  48. JF says:

    Given that “faith” is something you ultimately choose to believe and trust in, it beats me how anyone can acknowledge that homosexuality is natural, but then choose to believe that this natural state was created by a God, who then demands of its creation that it does not act according to its nature. Given that God supposedly hates sin, he must be a particularly twisted individual to have dreamt up this scenario as part of his creation. A question to BTD: why do you choose to believe this?

  49. beatthedrum says:

    I think Homosexuallity is part of the fall of nature, the whole of nature and not just human nature.

    It was not created that way, the fall of man ruined nature and creation as well.

    We all have a sinful nature but God in Hios love and wisdom made a way out of that sin for us in Jesus. Who died so that we can be made clean from our nature.

    I believe it as it is what I believe the word of God teaches.

  50. rebecca says:

    I’ve been sitting on this one for a day, but I’ve GOT to respond to Beat the Drum.

    You have three children. The probability that one or more of them will turn out to be homosexual is quite high — more than one in four (in other words, it is more likely than getting two heads if you toss a coin twice). Are you prepared for that possibility? It would be too awful if they were left with the options of either hiding their sexuality and remaining single forever, or abandoning their family, rather than risk the disapproval of a father who considers it sinful to have a same-sex partner.

    You don’t need to respond to this, but I had to say it. The prospect is upsetting me.

  51. rebecca says:

    In case it isn’t obvious, I just cross posted with Beat the Drum. What I’ve said still applies though.

  52. JF says:

    BTD – the point I was making is that faith is a choice. We choose what we believe and put our trust in.

    It seems you choose to believe that man’s fall also affected the animal kingdom (I can find no reference to this in the Bible). Why would you believe that, unless you were trying to explain the proven homosexuality of animals within the context of it being sinful?

    So, logically, your belief that you should ascribe ‘sinfulness’ to homosexual relations is dictating your interpretation of the Bible.

    And I ask again WHY you choose to believe this?

  53. beatthedrum says:

    Rebecca, interesting point and well made.

    I hopefully have a close enough relationship with my sons / daughter for us to have an open converstaion about it. Its interesting that just because I am fairly fundamental in my christian faith that I am seen as a big ogre who cannot love and would reject a gay child.

    That would not happen. My love for them would over ride that. However i believe that if they truely come to faith in Jesus they would see the ‘sinfullness’ of sexual homesexual relationships and not have one,as they would want to give glory to Jesus and the bible CLEARLY styates that it does not give honour to Jesus. It is the same as all other sin NO different.

    Godo point though

  54. beatthedrum says:


    I think Romans 8 points towards the fall and corruption of creation which is in bondage.

    Also Genesis talks of thorns a pain for the first time after the fall.

    I find what I believe in the bible Jf.

  55. JF says:

    “I find what I believe in the bible”

    But the same is also true for all the Christians for whom homosexual sex is not a sin.

    So I am really trying to find the difference between the two viewpoints.

    Because if there is no specific instruction, then the viewpoint that someone’s sexuality is a “sin” (or not) is a choice.

    But a choice made on the basis of… of what exactly?

    Given that choice, why would anyone make such a hateful, anti-human choice as to denigrate someone’s sexuality… in the name of “faith”!?

    For me, it is not the Bible that has dictated this choice, but the church. The church has always had a strange obsession with restricting the amount of sex people have and this was just one of the clubs used to beat the masses. “You can’t have sex unless you’re a) heterosexual, b) married c) actively trying for kids”.

    What troubles me is when people who make choices won’t admit they have made a choice.

  56. beatthedrum says:

    I didnt realise i was hatefull ie full of hate.

    I have made a choice JF the choice of follwoing what I believe God has said on this matter.

  57. JF says:

    That isn’t what “hateful” means and it isn’t what I said.

    I’m getting nowhere near understanding the WHY behind the “I believe” in your last sentence, which is all I was trying to deduce.

  58. jonbirch says:

    “However i believe that if they truely come to faith in Jesus they would see the ’sinfullness’ of sexual homesexual relationships and not have one,as they would want to give glory to Jesus and the bible CLEARLY styates that it does not give honour to Jesus.” beatthedrum… you are far too nice a guy to really believe this, surely… i think that may be you’d actually re-align your views once faced with the reality. and i utterly disagree that the bible clearly states any such thing or anything like it.

  59. Tiggy says:

    Doesn’t ‘hateful’ mean ‘full of hate’?

    The Inclusive Church roadshow is coming to Bath in August. Rather than argue about the rights or wrongs of homosexuality, it just introduces people to the life stories of some homosexual people in order to increase understanding. Their website gives a list of places where they are holding events. There is also an organisation with the tricky title of ‘Accepting Evangelicals’. This isn’t about Homosexuals accepting Evangelicals :-), but about Evangelicals, including many Evangelical clergy, accepting homosexuals and their relationships. Many Evangelicals have to keep quiet about their acceptance of homosexuals and are forced to remain anonymous on the EA website as they would be persecuted, just for accepting that homosexuality is a valid form of relationship.

  60. rebecca says:

    I was expecting to come back to this discussion this morning to find that Beat the Drum and JF had been going round in circles all night, but it seems that hasn’t happened.

    However I did have a suggestion for breaking the deadlock, so I will make it anyway: Jon — I suggest you produce a cartoon which asks the question of whether there are any moral demands made on us as Christians which apply purely because “it’s in the Bible”, or whether it is ALWAYS possible to come up with a nonbiblical argument as to why that behaviour is right.

    I hope that makes sense.

  61. JF says:

    No Tiggy, ‘hateful’ doesn’t mean ‘full of hate’. It means

    1. Eliciting or deserving hatred.
    2. Feeling or showing hatred; malevolent.

    I think homophobia elicits hatred, deserves hatred, and is in itself an expression of malevolence.

  62. JF says:

    And then a parallel cartoon, rebecca, about things which we know to be morally wrong, but to which the bible either gives approbation or outright encouragement. I wonder which would give rise to the longer list?

  63. Tiggy says:

    Well definition 2 is full of hate.
    At the moment when you’re showing it, you’re full of hate.

    The Christian journey isnt’ about making yourself more and more moral. That kind of perfectionism is way offline. It’s not about applying external standards to ourselves, but about love coming from our hearts.

  64. Luke says:

    I’ve been here on asbo for almost forever first as kick-hat-snare then as k-h-s then khs but as some one is now on here as kls I have become Luke… which is me.

    Anyway I thougt this might be a good read for some of us….


    unrelated yet very related.


  65. queermergent says:

    i personally went through this same kind of experience and it never changed me! i am still queer and very happy! G-D loves and celebrates ALL of me, including my being queer! Being queer is only ONE aspect of who i am and does not make up my entire identity!

  66. Tiggy says:

    Thanks for the link, Luke – very interesting website.

    I wonder if heterosexual people have the ability to imagine what it would feel like if they were told their relationships were an ‘abomination’ and that they had to be exorcised of the demon of heterosexuality.

  67. johnnyonthespot says:

    Luke–The slavery described in the bible is NOT the same as the slavery experienced during the 18th-21st century.

    The slavery described in the OT actually closer to what we in the west would refer to as indentured servitude (that is, that the slave could eventually earn enough to buy their freedom). Usually this was most often seen in the case of those under heavy debt, who would submit themselves to pay off their tab.

    (As a side note: Religioustolerance.org is not the most accurate site on beliefs.)

    Now back on topic:

    The truth is that there is no reason why homosexuals should not be welcomed into the church. Their love, is no less worthy than mine or anyone else.

  68. Tiggy says:

    Well slavery in Roman times was not indentured servitude, so that doesn’t apply to the New Tetament references. Anyway, so-called indentured servitude is just another name for what we now call debt slavery.

  69. jonbirch says:

    absolutely, queermergent. :-)

  70. Tiggy says:

    Funny, when I visited the Citizens Advice Bureau to consult them about my debt problem, they didn’t actually put forward slavery as an option.

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